The Chronicle: Colloquy Live Transcript

New Approaches to File Sharing

Thursday, May 22, at 1 p.m., U.S. Eastern time

How should colleges resolve the problem of file sharing on campuses? Is it a problem they should deal with at all?

Colleges are under increasing political and legal pressure to block file sharing by their students, who use campus networks to obtain free music rather than buying recordings. Graham B. Spanier, president of Pennsylvania State University at University Park, has two approaches for dealing with the issue. One is a policy of tough enforcement: Penn State has already started monitoring its network for file-sharing activity and shutting down any it finds. The other approach -- currently a trial balloon only -- would be to create a system for colleges to pay a record-industry-approved group an annual blanket fee to allow students to download songs as they please.

» A President Tries to Settle the Controversy Over File Sharing (5/23/2003)

Graham Spanier, the president at Penn State since 1995, has become the college president with the highest profile on file-sharing issues. In addition to his work on his campus, he has testified about the issue before a Congressional committee, and he has convened a panel of college administrators and entertainment-industry executives to come up with new approaches to the problem. Before becoming president of Penn State, Mr. Spanier was chancellor of the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, vice president for academic affairs at Oregon State University, and vice provost for undergraduate studies at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. Mr. Spanier will respond to questions and comments about file sharing on Thursday, May 22, at 1 p.m., U.S. Eastern time. Advance questions are encouraged and may be posted now.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
Good afternoon:

I'm Andrea Foster, a reporter here at The Chronicle of Higher Education. Today we will be chatting with Graham Spanier, president of Pennsylvania State University, about how colleges and universities can cope with the problem of illegal file sharing by students.

Welcome, Dr. Spanier.

Graham Spanier:
I'm pleased to welcome you to this on-line colloquy and look forward to your questions. I've never considered myself an expert on peer-to-peer file sharing or the technology behind it, but my previous involvement chairing the Commission on Information Technology, serving on the Board of the Corporation for Advanced Internet Development (Internet 2), and participating in other IT-related discussions at the national level have led to my being in the midst of some fascinating and important isues that are before us today. I look forward to discussing them with you.

Question from Stephen Hinkle, Student, San Diego State:
Instead of colleges blocking sharing, why don't they take a different approach. What if they included some royalties in the price of their dorms, and left sharing on? All the blocking is doing, in my opinion, is causing P2P developers to find ways around it, such as tunnelling, decentralization, open source code, random ports, and encryption.

Graham Spanier:
I couldn't agree with you more. Yesterday (Wednesday) I was involved in a meeting sponsored by the Committee of Higher Education and the Entertainment Industry, which I co-chair, with representatives of the recording industry and the many services that provide music legitimately to individuals for a fee (services such as Pressplay, MusicNow, Emusic, iMusic, MusicNet). I have proposed that universities pay a fee to make music available legally as a service to its students. I delivered a strong message that such services need to be very functional, low in price to the university, and responsive to student needs and interests. We'll see how this unfolds.

Question from Jeffrey R. Galin:
Most universities have developed acceptable use policies that address a range of concerns with the use of their networks for illegal or otherwise inappropriate activities. We see policies concerning harrassment, viewing of pornographic materials, use of university facilities for commercial gain, etc. In most of these cases, policies are set to punish offenders, not to protect the university against all possible offenses online. My question is, Why should file trading be treated differently from all other offenses? Just as researchers should be free to study cultural implications of the porn industry, gambling, or chat rooms by logging into these sites, so too should they be able to study the file-sharing practices and cultures of undergraduates. Is outright blocking file trading really the desired result of institutions of higher education?

Graham Spanier:
I don't think universities should block all P2P file sharing, since it is a legitimate technology that can have important uses, especially for research, collaboration, and education. The problem is how to prevent inappropriate uses, such as pirated music, videos, movies, and software. Few universities at this point actually block such material, and it is debatable whether there is a technology out there that could prevent a determined person from gaining access to what he or she wants. But there is pressure from Congress and from the owners of IP to block piracy. I sympathize with these concerns. I agree that the policies out there tend to punish offenders, and that is as it should be, since they are the ones violating the law. As for studying the file sharing practices of our students, there are lots of ways to do this, and I'd be first in line to want to see the findings!

Question from Gershon Bialer, U. of Rochester:
File sharing applications distribute books, music, and movies; Libraries distribute books, music, and movies. Meanwhile, university libraries have put works online through online course reserves and electronic interlibrary loan. Do file sharing applications serve the same purpose as libraries? Is policing file sharing networks different from putting armed guards in front of library copy machines?

Graham Spanier:
I believe there is a difference between library loans and file sharing, since libraries have a very clear understanding of the ownership of intellectual property, the protocols for "fair use," and accepted approaches to administering access to IP in digital form. Peer to peer file sharing has important, appropriate, and legal uses. The problem, of course, is that so far, P2P use is mostly focused on music and movies.

Question from Esther Hoorn, Rijksuniversiteit Groningen, The Netherlands:
I would like to suggest a third approach to this issue. It might be called a Dutch approach. In Dutch legislation the aim was not to fix the economical interests of pre-Internet organizations. I think universities -- especially law schools -- should pay more attention to explaining to students the ethics of file sharing. I see a strong parallel between sharing music and sharing scientific knowledge. From the perspective of university libraries new methods of publishing and contributing to science should not be penalized. A practical approach in which students learn to use file-sharing progrmas in a legitimate way (using for instance good citations) would be worth investigating. Do you agree?

Graham Spanier:
I agree. Focusing on the ethics of piracy of copyrighted material is important. This is, in fact, something that Jack Valenti, the CEO of the Motion Picture Association of America, has been doing for the last several months, speaking at a number of universities. We are, after all, universities first and foremost, so an educational approach to all this is what we should be doing front and center. As educators, we need to focus on educating our students about the problem.

Question from Tracy Mitrano, Cornell University:
President Spanier, I applaud your remedy concept for legal file sharing (copyright holders directly licensing ISPs), but have been surprised by Penn State's policy shift from strict compliance to active enforcement on behalf of copyright holders. Upon what legal or historical precedent did Penn State ground its decision to police its community aggressively in order to protect a third party's property rights, particularly in light of the potential adverse impact that such proactive measures could have on core principles of higher education such as privacy and freedom of inquery and expression? Thank You.

Graham Spanier:
I'm glad you asked this question, since there has been some misreporting of what Penn State does and doesn't do. Let me clarify: Penn State has not monitored its networks for filesharing nor do we perform any other routine monitoring involving examination of the intellectual content of users' network transmissions. The University has always responded to complaints involving identified machines and users and will continue to do so. Upon receipt of a valid DMCA notification, the University moves very quickly to either remove or block access to the allegedly infringing materials. (Access is restored upon verification that the material has been permanently removed, or a DMCA counter-notification is made). However, contrary to what was stated in a recent Chronicle of Higher Education story, the University has never monitored content nor otherwise engaged in systematic sweeps or searches for possibly infringing activity. Penn State has reservations about monitoring the intellectual content of user network transmissions. Moreover, it exceeds requirements placed on Online Service Providers under the DMCA.

Question from Robb, Midwestern state college:
How do you think the Verizon case will affect higher-education institutions?

Graham Spanier:
The Verizon case is still under appeal, I believe, so I'm not sure we have heard the last word on that yet. In the end, however, I am inclined to think that Congress, through legislation that might emanate from the House Judiciary Committee, will sort this out. When I testified before Congress on the topic of P2P file sharing and piracy of copyrighted material, it was clear that every member of Congress on the committee was sympathetic with the economic challenges facing the recording industry. They were also genuinely disturbed that students were "stealing" music. I was told that higher education better fix our part of the problem or they would pass legislation that we wouldn't like. So in the end, I think Congress will want to stop people from using the Internet to steal music, even if it means telling Verizon and others that they have to turn over the names of infringers.

Question from Hector Ramos, Penn State:
What is your opinion on how the record companies are dealing with file sharing issues? For example, multiples students at a university were sued recently. A Penn State professor was falsely flagged as having copyrighted material because of his name.

Graham Spanier:
I think the recording industry is doing what it has to do, and I do not criticize them for it. If any of us were systematically being looted, we would take steps to stop it as well. It isn't just the RIAA that wants theft of music to stop. So do we in higher education. It is taking up as much as 75% of the bandwidth at many universities. This is costing us a fortune. As for the mistake they made in the one instance, they said it was a mistake, apologized, and tightened up their system. I would't dwell on that.

Question from Ed, at a mid-Atlantic educational network:
Why does theft of intellectual property require any new steps simply because of its current popularity or because it uses the Internet? If students were stealing novels from the bookstore and distributing photocopies of them from the dorms, would anyone propose that schools provide every student with a subscription to Book-of-the-Month? Would anyone monitor or prohibit the use of photocopiers on campus? Isn't the underlying issue one of educating students about the moral and legal considerations of taking and using something without the owner's permission?

Graham Spanier:
I agree that the principle approach to all of this should indeed be educating students about the moral and legal considerations. But we need to be mindful of the fact that our networks are being used, and we own and operate those networks. Moreover, there is a cost to us in paying for the bandwidth. Also, let's keep in mind that theft of intellectual property in a digital mode is indeed different because of the Digital Millenium Copyright act (DMCA). That act does impose some new rules that didn't exist before.

Question from Tim King, Penn State:
Dr. Spanier; How was the 1.5Gb per week per account limit arrived at for the Penn State system? Are these limits artificial (and if so did any outside organization such as RIAA suggest them) or are they imposed by limits of the system itself?

Graham Spanier:
The limit was determined by our staff in Information Technology Services. The number is, of course, arbitrary, but it seems to be serving us well. It could, I suppose, be adjusted up or down over time depending on network performance, demand, the cost of the bandwidth we are paying for, and shifting student needs. But I do think it has helped us to limit inappropriate uses of our residence hall networks, and it has helped us to send a message that piracy of copyrighted intellectual property is wrong. There was no consultation with the RIAA or any other such organization.

Question from Elmore Alexander, Philadelphia University:
Doesn't this issue need to become a part of the curriculum of universities?

Graham Spanier:
Interesting point. Intellectual property is becoming so important in our nation that greater awareness is certainly needed. There are courses popping up--we have many at Penn State in our College of Communications, School of Information Sciences and Technology, Dickinson School of Law, and elsewhere--that deal with intellectual property. But I think it needs to be infused more generally into the curriculum. We certainly use a broad range of educational approaches to try to reach students with the basics from the moment they sign up for an email account and access to our network.

Question from JP, small private college:
Do you feel that there are viable, academic uses for P2P networks? If so, what examples might you provide?

Graham Spanier:
Absolutely. There are many legitimate uses of P2P, so it is critical here that we NOT throw out the baby with the bath water. Some of the most exciting uses will be in the areas of research collaboration, scholarly interaction, and distance education. Those who are savvy with the possibilities through Internet2 could undoubtedly give some current examples.

Question from Jerry Goldman, Northwestern University:
The question seems to assume that file sharing is inherently wrong. While I understand that file-sharing of unlicensed material is wrong, file-sharing of licensed material should be encouraged. For example, music and spoken word materials released under a Creative Commons share-alike license would be a good use of P2P networking. I fear that a policy that shuts down file-sharing will throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would appreciate your ideas on legitimate file-sharing activities and your thoughts on ways to encourage it.

Graham Spanier:
I did address this in an earlier question, but let me add that there is a flip side to our being involved in discusions with the recording and motion picture industries on this topic. We in higher education want very much to preserve and even expand "fair use." The DMCA has made our lives a bit more constrained, and I think the RIAA and MPAA can be important allies in helping us to persuade Congress that higher education has lots of legitimate needs, some of which are constrained now. The entertainment industry sees what goes on in our libraries and schools of music as noise in the system, financially. If we can help them with massive piracy, I believe they can help us with our needs as well.

Question from Greg L., U. of Louisville:
What are your thoughts on RIAA/MPAA-type organizations attempting to infect file traders with viruses and to otherwise compromise the integrity of their computers?

Graham Spanier:
I don't support the concept of anyone spreading viruses. Frankly, I don't think this is what RIAA and MPAA are doing. They are looking for infringement and trying to thwart it, but they are not, as far as I know, planting viruses, exploding computers, or frying hard drives. (I have heard of cases where if one trys to steal TV satellite signals, the satellite dish company might try to fry your counterfeit circuit board, but this is NOT what the recording industry is doing!)

Question from Kim Round, Merrimack College:
Hi Mr. Spanier, How are faculty reacting to the monitoring of the Penn network? Are there many seeing it as a infringement on academic freedom? Or, do most understand the exposure and liability issues surrounding illegal file sharing? Thanks so much for sharing your insights with us today!

Graham Spanier:
I haven't had any faculty complaints about what we are doing. But let me add, as I explained in an earlier response, that Penn State is not doing anything particularly intrusive. We respond to complaints. I'm not sure it has been reported publicly, but when we recently shut down 200 plus students, the action was originated based on a complaint. The information about the infrigement was provided to us from outside of our IT staff. Most faculty aren't up to speed on these matters, and those who are seem to understand that we are handling it as well as we can.

Question from Cornelius O. Firecloud:
What kinds of things can schools do to address this problem that does not encroach up freedom of speech? I've heard that you have taken a more aggressive approach -- has that worked?

Graham Spanier:
Privacy and freedom of speech are fundamental values that we are all trying to preserve in all this. Of course we know that the constitution, via the courts, have always placed some limits on the concepts of privacy and freedom of speech. So the sky isn't the limit. And in the digital age, such freedoms do not translate into allowing anyone to steal. So our task is to get the right balance. If we can stop piracy without having to read email or look at what is on your hard drive, we would prefer such an approach. By the way, keep in mind that unless your computer is firewalled, your computer is probably being probed as many as several dozen times an hour while you are connected to the network by folks who have worse things in mind than your university.

Question from T. Wortman, Penn State Erie:
What due process rights should accused students be given prior to disciplinary action by their institution?

Graham Spanier:
They should be given full due process rights according to the university's judicial affairs system. This, of course, might differ from due process in a criminal court or public legal system. The concepts and standards that apply in student conduct matters customarily differ from the legal system, and of course they vary from one university to the next.

Question from Michael Wm. Gilbert, UMass Amherst:
It was stated, "Penn State has already started monitoring its network for file-sharing activity and shutting down any it finds." Please define 'any' Does this mean anyone running P2P? FTP? Server? Client?

Graham Spanier:
I'm not sure where this quote came from, but as I've referenced earlier, it seems to be an exaggeration of our approach. So far I think it is accurate to say we have only shut down students upon receipt of a complaint that they are likely in violation of the DMCA. I wouldn't absolutely rule out a stricter policy or more aggressive approach in the future, but we aren't there yet frankly.

Question from Donna L. Ferullo, Purdue University:
How and when did you arrive at your new music business model theory?

Graham Spanier:
About two or three months ago it occurred to me that there might be a good way to make legal everything that is currently illegal, simply by having universities partner with music (and maybe someday movie) providers to supply our students the music they want. After all, we already provide cable TV service in the residence halls. We provide a telephone. We provide high speed internet service. We show free movies in the student union. Why not recognize that one entertainment (am I stretching it to say "student develoment"?) need or desire of our students is music? The idea is for us to pay a licensing fee of some sort for a basic level of unlimited listening to music that would be "free" to the students. Perhaps some add-on services such as burning CDs might incur an additional charge paid by the student. We could add a few dollars on to room and board, or to a student activity fee or to tuition. At heavily discounted rates, everyone could be a winner. Yesterday we had a meeting with representatives from most of the companies now in that business. It went extremely well, and I anticipate that we will see some pilot project this coming year.

Question from David F. Ullman, NJIT:
Different appraoches for restricting the use of technology are fine, and I do agree the recording industry has to embrace a new business model. However, what I find somewhat troubling is that well meaning students see nothing wrong with the use of these new "Napster-like" and P2P technologies for massive digital sharing of copyrighted material. How do we change the culture and perspective on this?

Graham Spanier:
Education, education, education. And, I'm sorry I have to say it, but enforcement will be required. It is like speeding. Everyone know it is wrong--SORT OF. If you can get away with it, no problem. If you are caught, yea, you know you have to pay the fine. Only with enforcement added in, by the RIAA, MPAA, universities, and other entities will we collectively be able to stop the piracy. Interesting that just a decade ago students thought it OK to copy software belonging to others. It is still done, but most know that it is wrong, and the problem isn't anything like what we see with music. In time, I think the thinking on this will evolve, especially as new business models for music develop.

Question from Garret Sern, EDUCAUSE:
What are, if any, the potential savings to a university in providing licensed music to their students?

Graham Spanier:
No savings, really. Mostly it will cost us to pay the licensing fees. But it is the right thing to do. There will perhaps be some modest savings, however, in that we are all devoting more and more staff time to responding to DMCA violations. And we are paying, at a school like Penn State, several hundred thousand dollars a year for all the bandwidth we've added in recent years. I mention this because one approach might be to have the licensed music resident on a file server at the university.

Question from Michael Wm. Gilbert, UMass Amherst:
Can you address the realities about how end users may feel about how the concepts of intellectual property have been used by the recording industry to realize expectations of very high profit margins?

Graham Spanier:
I recognize that many of today's college students have an "anti corporate America" point of view, which results in saying that it is OK to steal music since it is going to rich people and rich companies. But stealing music and movies because someone else will get rich hardly makes it right. And while there are a few thousand artists and songwriters making the big bucks, most aren't. We are talking about tens of thousands of people in the industry, many who struggle. I don't say this to toot the horn of the industry--they don't need me for that--but I can think of lots of good comparisons in higher education or any other endeavor. In the end, we have to do what is right.

Question from Bill Vilberg, Univ. of Miami (FL):
Who are you using or who would you suggest using to communicate with the students on these issues? Faculty? IT Staff? Residence hall staff? Honor councils? Who is doing it at Penn State?

Graham Spanier:
At Penn State, lots of us are involved. Our Provost is probably most visible, communicating with students, faculty, and staff. Our IT folks are the main players in the day to day educational efforts. Student affairs folks are involved too. I might be biased on this, but I think it is important for support in this area to come from the top. So presidents must get involved in the discussion and become aware. That is why this is now getting presidential-level attention in our higher education associations. They are getting up to speed quickly.

Question from Gale Scott NJIT:
How much administrative time has been consumed in complying with DMCA notices?

Graham Spanier:
Lots, I think, and it is growing exponentially. If we don't get out ahead of this, I think most schools are going to end up having to devote at least a full-time IT staff member or more, not to mention staff time in judicial affairs and other areas.

Question from Dan Bernitt, Penn State:
I'm afraid the real act of fair use, as opposed to lip service, is becoming a victim of the DMCA and the aggressive, punitive position taken by the entertainment industry. You commented how members of congress are very much aware of their problems. I don't hear much talk, at least from anyone in a position of influence about trying to get the entertainment industry to lighten up and work constructively. I do not believe, for example, that every downloaded song is an actual loss of a sale. Is there no one in your circle to argue that point of view?

Graham Spanier:
My colleagues and I on the "Higher Education and the Entertainment Industry" committee have indeed been arguing this point of view. I see it as a key part of our discussions. John Vaughn from AAU and Shelly Steinbach from ACE, among others, carry the portfolio on this for the higher education community, and will continue to seek adjustments to the DMCA that we need. I plan to stick with this as well.

Question from Matt, PSU -UP:
The media wants to focus on the actions of the RIAA and paint them in a negative light, when they are acting fully within the laws set forth by the DMCA. Have there been any discussions within the committee, or with Congress about reforming the law, specifically, to reduce the liability that can be placed on universities?

Graham Spanier:
Most university administrators don't feel that it is the universities that have the liability. It is really the students. We aren't worried so much about being sued as we are about our STUDENTS being sued. We need to solve this problem because it isn't good for anyone.

Question from Tom Rasper, UW:
Hello Mr. Spanier, The RIAA expects universities to police our students file-sharing activities. Why do you think the RIAA is focusing on universities and yet seemingly ignoring the large ISPs, such as AT&T, to do the same policing - doesn't that seem like a bit of a double standard?

Graham Spanier:
Excellent question. Universities are where the action is now, but as broadband quickly penetrates the home market, more and more of this problem will shift there. For now, though, we are a major part of the problem, so it is logical that the focus is with us. Moreover, we are organized into associations such as AAU, ACE, NASULGC, AASCU, and so on, so there is a platform for discussion. In the end, this will be an issue that goes well beyond higher education.

Question from Gary Lawrence, University of California:
Dr. Spanier -- if I understand correctly from the discussion today, Penn State is doing nothing more on the enforcement side than responding (as the law requires) to DMCA takedown requests. Has Penn also done something to more aggressively address cases of infringement (identified through DMCA claims) in the student conduct system? And if this is the most that an institution can or should do, in what way can it be said that enforcement is key in addressing this problem?

Graham Spanier:
Most student conduct systems are finding this to be new territory, so we have to talk more about how to deal with it there. Frankly, most of our cases don't get that far because if the student persists in illegally downloading music, they will be shut off. So we are shutting students down before we even let them get to the point of facing a more severe penalty, such as suspension or expulsion.

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
Well, we've run out of time so that was our last question for Dr. Spanier. Thanks to all of you for submitting your questions. And thank you, Dr. Spanier, for participating in this chat.

Graham Spanier:
Thanks, everyone, for being a part of the colloquy. Great questions, and enlightening for me. I hope you found my comments helpful. Best regards.