An Online Discussion With the Author of 'Hitler's Jewish Soldiers'

If a person still practiced Judaism, then they were labeled as full-Jews and treated accordingly. Those "partial-Jews" who misbehaved were indeed sometimes treated more harshly than had they been "Aryans." Many Mischling soldiers were warned by their parents to try not to attract any unusual attention whether positive or negative, fearing that any questions might endanger the Jewish relatives.

Most of the men who I have documented spoke freely about their Jewish relatives. Some did not know of their Jewish heritage until during the war. I heard several stories of a confession by a parent or grandparent regarding a young Mischling's Jewish relatives immediately after he received a draft notice. In a few rare cases, a soldier learned of his Jewish relatives existence only after the war.

In preparation for the release of the book, my publisher, several scholars and I discussed the title. In the end, based on the reactions we received, we concluded that the title we have chosen works best for the diverse purposes that a title/subtitle must serve. It's our view that, while the title is indeed provocative--i.e., it provokes attention--it is neither sensationalistic nor in one key sense even inaccurate. Rather it is ambiguous in a way that some may find disturbing but many others will find compelling enough to make them want to find out what's actually inside the book. We imagine that many potential readers will see the main title and immediately ask themselves "how can that be?" or "what on earth does this author claim?" Such questions encourage potential readers to look past the title and into the book itself, thus fulfilling one of the key functions of any book title.

While we fully understand the distinctions one could make about the contested nature of the "Jewish" dimension of the Mischlinge's identity and while I am at pains to make precisely those distinctions in the book itself, there is, as I indicate above throughout the book one key sense in which the main title is quite accurate. These men, these Mischlinge were after all designated "Jewish" or "part-Jewish" by Hitler and his racial laws. So, in fact, these are indeed Hitler's Jewish Soldiers and no one else's, since the majority of the German Jewish population and so many of the Mischlinge themselves seemed not to share Hitler's view on this subject.

In another sense, Hitler's Jewish Soldiers can be seen as inaccurate. But I think that particular reading (of a title that is deliberately ambiguous) points to such an obvious inaccuracy as to compel the potential reader to question what precisely the author is up to. And to find out, the potential reader must necessarily go inside the book. Once inside, we're convinced that the deep and meticulous research and carefully fashioned presentation will win over most every reader that might initially be concerned about the main title.

I have been thinking of translating this book into English. Do you think based on the response to your research there would be interest in the U.S. in a personal chronicle of a "Mischling" family , how they accomodated to the times, why they didn't resist (and how they survived, but not unscathed, except the brother who died in the war and an aunt and uncle - my great-grandparents - who died in Theresienstadt)?

Bryan Mark Rigg:
    First of all, thank you very much for your question. I know Marlies Flesch-Thebesius. very well; she is a fascinating and very interesting individual, who I have interviewed for my project. She has been a great help throughout the years, and I am glad to meet another member of her family.

Yes, I think it would help the study of the Mischling family to have books like Marlies' translated into English, and if you want to pursue translating it you have my 100 percent support. Another book that chronicles the life of a Mischling family, in addition to Marlies', is Helmut Krueger's Der Haube Stern. This book also does a very good job of describing the tragic story of the Mischlinge during the Third Reich. Both of these books are also valuable because of their insight into the Wehrmacht.

Let us posit that ordinarily decent men can, without extraordinary fault, find themselves caught up in the service of an evil cause. Most men, and especially in time of war, do not know anything like the whole truth of the conflict in which they are engaged.

However, service in the SS would have been a very different matter; no one could plausibly plead ignorance or simple German patriotism, having served in the Waffen SS. So my question: Has it been broken down, the share of Germans whose records indicated some fraction of jewish ancestry, who served in the SS, as opposed to other branches of the armed forces? Do the panelists see a major moral divide between service in the regular armed forces, and the SS?

Bryan Mark Rigg:
    Yes, I have documented a few individuals who served in the Waffen SS, but their number is very small -- a handful. By and large, I tend to agree that most people who served in the Waffen SS were strongly motivated by Nazi ideology. The few individuals I've documented who served in the Waffen SS have not provided me with enough information to comment on what these men knew or did not know. As renowned historian John Kegen wrote in his book, Waffen SS: The Asfalt Soldiers, the Waffen SS did know about Hitler's crimes.

It's also interesting to note that many of the men who I documented, although they gave an oath to Hitler, said that they were not fighting for him, but rather for Germany. Many of them were also just serving to protect their families or themselves, and that is what gave their service meaning. I was a marine corp officer, and although my Commander-in-Chief was President Bill Clinton, we were not fighting for him. Most marines I know actually detested the man.

As far as the second question is concerned, I feel strongly that historians need to do all they can to interest the popular presses in their work at an appropriate time. In my opinion, knowledge confined to an ivory tower does the general public very little good.

About Himmler, I don't know -- Himmler wanted to treat 1/2 Jews like full Jews; he wanted to exterminate them. He thought the idea of having mischlinge as soldiers was absurd.

First, I'm interested in the dynamic in your book (at least as Mr. Postel has sketched it) between on the one hand seemingly straightforward blood rules ("Jewish grandparent. Period.") and on the other a case-by-case review of individual cases meriting special consideration. Did either the Mischlinge or the Nazis themselves regard this tension as ironic or implicitly critical of the situation they were creating? Are there analogies for that tension in pre-Nazi or post-war Germans' view of Jewish identity?

Secondly: I'm interested in your technique of personal interviews. How have you found your way to know when to depend on interviews and when on written records? Were there any moments in your research where you felt you had a real conundrum on your hands, a hard decision about how to reconcile the "official" with the remembered histories? (This question is not, I suppose, unrelated to my first one.)

Bryan Mark Rigg:
    I would say to the second part, the way I went about doing my interviews is when I found someone very interesting, I would try to interview them a few times or write them several times after the interview about the inteview to make sure they gave me the same story. Most men who I have interviewed, I feel, have been honest with me. They were not threatened by a person who represented the age of their grandchildren, and they appreciated having someone there willing to listen to them and try to understand their pain, their experience, and their tragedy and their paradox. Also, with almost everyone I interviewed, I got consent forms from them, and this allowed me to find files on them in the archives. When there was a discrepency between the files and the interviews, I would do my best to discuss that issue with the family involved.

In regard to your first question, the Nurenberg laws are unique in history because they created this new category of Jewish mischlinge that had never existed before. There is a lot of confusion about these racial declarations amongst the Nazi government and party. Hitler continually wavered on facts about race, and many of his actions during the Third Reich, especially in the context of giving mischlinge exemptions, did not reflect the true categories of race so central to Nazi rhetoric and ideology. Some of his actions seem to demonstrate that he indeed believed Jewish "blood," to use a Nazi term, ruined a person. Other actions seem to prove that Hitler believed in Gregor Mendel's theory of genetics, in that a mischling could actually inherit all of his "blood" from his Aryan parent. So, if Hitler was confused about the racial laws, this shows there was a lot of confusion down the chain-of-command about how to interpret and implement these laws.

About pre and post-war Germany, I don't know, I haven't studied that.

Heydrich was definitely haunted by stories of his Jewish past, but whether he had any or not, still remains unknown -- unless more documents come to light. He, like Hitler, probably did not have any Jewish ancestry. But from a psychological point of view, it is interesting to note that they both feared it.

Milch was definitely a half Jew according to Nazi racial laws, and Hitler gave him an exemption to remain in the Luftwaffe and serve as the number two man under Goering. Interestingly, Goering, although he may have said that he decides who is or is not a Jew, ultimately had to get Hitler's approval if he wanted to keep a michling in the Luftwaffe -- unless he wanted to hide the individual. For all his bravado, he ultimately had to get Hitler's approval. Interesting side note about Goering, according to historian Wolfgang Paul, in his book Wehr War Hermann Goering? he presents evidence that Goering had Jewish ancestry a few centuries back in his family tree.

Also, if anyone is interested in learning more about American Military University, where I work, please visit http://www.amunet.edu