The Chronicle: Colloquy Live Transcript

Careers for Humanities Scholars in Technology Administration

Thursday, June 28, at 2:30 p.m., U.S. Eastern time; 6:30 p.m., Greenwich Mean Time

What kinds of career opportunities are available to humanities scholars in information technology in higher education? How can humanities scholars prepare for such careers?

One recent growth area in higher-education employment is information technology, with many colleges hiring administrators to manage increasingly complicated and expensive computing systems. New offices have also been created to help faculty members work with technology, and to develop policies and programs on distance learning, technology, privacy, and many other issues. While many administrative posts go to career administrators, a number of top positions in information technology are held by scholars -- people who until very recently focused on teaching and research and who in some cases continue to teach and conduct research in a range of disciplines.

» How a Princeton Classicist Leads in Instructional Technology (6/29/2001)

» James J. O'Donnell's Web page

James J. O'Donnell is a professor of classical studies and vice provost for information systems and computing at the University of Pennsylvania. He is an expert on the cultural history of the Mediterranean world of late antiquity, and he is a co-founder of the Bryn Mawr Classical Review, which in 1990 was the second online scholarly journal to be created.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
Welcome to Colloquy Live. I'm Andrea Foster, a reporter here at The Chronicle, and our guest today is James O'Donnell, a professor of classical studies and vice provost for information systems and computing at the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr O'Donnell has successfully pursued dual interests in information technology and the classics. As a technology administrator he started a program to provide 24-hour computer help and tutoring for students in their dormitories, and he advocates the use of technology in academic instruction.

Mr. O'Donnell cofounded the Bryn Mawr Classical Review, the second oldest electronic journal in the humanities. And he is the author of Avatars of the Word: From Papyrus to Cyberspace, which discusses how informality in electronic communication is leading to a less a hierarchical society.

Mr. O'Donnell will respond to questions about career paths of people in IT leadership positions in higher education.

Thanks, for joining us, Mr. O'Donnell.

James J. O'Donnell:
I want to say I'm happy to be here, but in cyberspace "here" is a funny category. But I am happy.

Twenty years ago, it was easy to know where to look for IT leadership: guys with slide rules and calculators. In 1985, we had somebody in charge of a significant swath of computing at my institution who was eager and outgoing and proactive and made it clear that he'd support anything people wanted to do with computers -- but wouldn't give one cent for mere "word processing". We still gave people money in those bygone days to have manuscripts typed by secretaries, but had no money to make people independent of the need.

Today "word processing" is almost the dominant application of computers in higher education -- if you think of that phrase as meaning not just what you do with MS Word and a printer, but the way we use IT as an essential medium of communication at every level, an essential way of processing and helping ourselves process the floods of information we deal with. It should be no surprise then -- but I find people are often surprised -- that non-techies, non-computational people are increasingly moving into the leadership roles. For my own part, with a background in research that had a lot to do with the history of books, writing, and libraries in antiquity, the intellectual relevance of the cyberrevolution was always obvious and intense, and so it *feels* natural for me to be doing what I'm doing now. But I know that I can't be introduced the way Andrea just introduced me without getting the question: so what's a nice guy like you . . . All I can say to that is: just doing what comes naturally. jo'd

Question from Elizabeth Horan, Arizona State U and U of Michigan:
I'm a tenured prof with a Comp Lit PhD, on leave, who has enrolled in the School of Information (formerly library studies) at the U of Michigan. It's an extraordinary program. Still, I do find myself wondering: won't many of the technical skills I'm learning (and that I see my younger, fellow students learning) be obsolete in a few years? How to plan for this? Could you address, as well, the question of why academic library and archives work, which requires substantial technical knowledge plus field expertise, remains so poorly paid? thanks

James J. O'Donnell:
The focus in all "technology training" needs to be on the concepts and processes. Individual skillsets migrate: but the good news is that if you possess the skills of the moment and can function effetively with them, migration is almost natural. I have a former student, English major, who went right out of college to a major dot.com as web-page designer. Now five years later, he's a senior software engineer, without anything in the way of formal programming instruction. You need to be willing to jump in the river and paddle like crazy: amazing where you can get if you do that.

Question from Karen Schwalm, Glendale (AZ) Community College:
When we move into IT positions, many of us maintain our links to our disciplinary organizations, but then also have to develop additional links with new professional organizations (EduCause, AAHEGSIT, etc.) It might be useful to identify those organizations, explain how they differ and outline what benefits they offer to those in IT positions or preparing for them.

James J. O'Donnell:
That's a hard one because there are so many subsets. Educause remains the umbrella of most importance for higher education, but I would also emphasize that the model in IT positions is a hybrid of academic and business: I find lots of value in tracking things like Gartner Group, a commercial operation that offers an array of services from news/alerting to conferences and on-site consultation. Educause themselves, moreover, do a good job of funneling a lot of information about the rest of the world.

Question from Lori Bailey, Ohio State University:
I'm a grad student working in technology pedagogy through a special program in my English department while studying to be an 18th century specialist. However, I feel like there is a lot of pressure to choose one side or the other; and, if I choose technology as my primary job description, I see how that skill knowledge can really overwhelm my duties and other research (because of the need for technology staff). What should I being doing now to emphasize that I want a position that allows me space for both interests? Is it better to minimize the emphasis on technology during job searches, so I can find a more literary research position and then tell them I'm also interested in tech support and development?

James J. O'Donnell:
Cultures change slowly. I think you want very much not to ghettoize yourself as the techie too easily. Don't be too helpful might be one piece of advice: you don't want a career crawling around on the floor plugging in desktops and configuring MS Office. Keep your interaction around technology at as high a level as possible: engage colleagues with the academic possibilities, not the bells and whistles.

But then yes, I would say that you should still be concentrating on making yourself the most interesting 18th century person you can. We've had a couple of good people come out of Penn this way and they're in good tenure track jobs where people think it's wonderful they can *also* be the local change agent. That's the ideal job: all it takes is energy, talent, and luck.

Question from Jo Koster, Winthrop University:
You've written (and I would agree) that the professoriate has to learn to redefine what constitutes "scholarship" in a networked world. As a junior faculty member heavily involved in electronic scholarship and coming up for promotion and tenure at a very traditional institution, I'm very worried about how my established colleagues will evaluate my electronic publications, teaching, and other activities (such as pursuing a webmaster's certificate). What suggestions would you have for how I can educate my colleagues about the value of incorporating information technology into a scholarly career? Many thanks from a Penn alumna (CW '78).

James J. O'Donnell:
Perhaps the most effective thing you can do is make people like me feel every day the urgency of the issue. I've seen a lot of progress in the last decade and deans are more open than they've ever been, but they're still a bit behind the curve. For practical advice, I encourage junior faculty to co-opt their bosses. Talk to your chair, talk to your dean if possible/appropriate *early* in your career: say hi, here's what I'm working on and thinking of working on, do you have any feedback? Then listen to that feedback and make it clear that, when you come up for tenure, what you've been doing is closely aligned with what they said at that time. If they've bought in ahead of time, it's harder for them to be fussy later. Oh, and not just dean and department chair, but the Real Powers in the department: network, seek and accept mentoring, and just keep lines of communication open. Worst tenure cases are the ones where a snarky elder looks at the dossier and says, "Well, I wonder why he spent his time on *this*?" It's always a rough ride when that happens.

Question from Dick Cornell, University of Central Florida:
Mr. O'Donnell: To what extent do you think faculty are aware of the Instructional Design career field and its many opportunities to combine their humanities knowledge with that of technology, especially when related to working in or teaching with and about technology in instruction? There are many excellent graduate programs that abound across this country and abroad that offer such programs....and the Association for Educational Communications and Technology is one direct avenue for such individuals to find out more information... http://www.aect.org

James J. O'Donnell:
I'm sure that awareness is far too little disseminated: thanks for the URL: very helpful!

Question from Andrea Foster:
Many administrators and trustees say that colleges need to be run "more like businesses." Do you think there is a role for scholars in administration to counter that view? Do you think people with backgrounds like yours have a credibility problem with administrators whose background is in business?

James J. O'Donnell:
Administration has to be the place where those opposing views meet, learn to respect each other, and work out real policies. We don't live in a world of fairy godmothers (the administrators are right about this), but we do have missions that don't reduce themselves to Profit/Loss (the faculty are very right about this). Negotiation is necessary and what satisfies me about my work is when I succeed in bringing people at whatever level for conversations across lines of misunderstanding.

Question from Scot Lahaie, Baylor University:
Why are salaries so low for IT personnel who are degreed in the humanities, when compared to IT personnel who have degrees in the sciences, business, or ITS? It seems more appropriate to pay according to the job description or employee accomplishment.

James J. O'Donnell:
It's not always the case, but it happens. When it does, I think it's the responsibility of the CIO on the campus to see it, address it, and fix it. Reminding the CIO that it's an equity and EEO issue can help, but you have to be diplomatic about it. But it's emphatically part of the CIO's job.

Question from Bill Lantry, Catholic University:
What are other universities doing to prepare graduate students in the humanities for work in fields like academic computing?

James J. O'Donnell:
Varies dramatically. Alas, some options have gone away: there used to be a Center for Electronic Texts in the Humanities at Princeton/Rutgers that did interesting summer seminars. Those have lapsed as some talented people moved on. Elsewhere, my sense is that it's very hit and miss. I would think it's in the interest of faculty to encourage administrations to make some small investments essentially in growing your own talent. Given the cost of full-time technology talent on the open market, training graduate students, giving them experience and credential, and making them part of the team (and paying a decent wage in the bargain) makes a lot of sense.

Question from Natalie Gummer, Harvard U:
How might one combine IT work with a teaching position (especially at a small liberal arts college)? Any advice on how one might go about pitching such a combined position to the administration? Any role models that you'd recommend studying/contacting?

James J. O'Donnell:
Not sure where the small colleges will end up. I see some "outsourcing" their IT to neighboring institutions, others struggling to hire and retain staff. It depends where you stand in the institution -- if you're looking for a job, the pitch probably is a tough sell. If you're new on faculty, you have to be careful not to get yourself sidelined. I know a happy case now where somebody who's been in a year-to-year job at one place, doing wonderful stuff, solved the problem by landing a tenure-track job at perhaps a slightly less prestigious (but in some ways more attractive place) where they knew going in they wanted a great teacher who would also be a change agent for the department. As I said in answer to an earlier question: energy, talent, and luck. But luck is getting a little easier to come by.

Question from Gail Porter, Purdue University:
Do you see IT as an area where adjuncts and unranked teachers might find more permanent, supported employment in higher education?

James J. O'Donnell:
I've seen it happen. Some of the happiest academic stories I know are ones where the adjunct/part-time/temp teacher finds a way to make her/himself indispensable to the institution.

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
We're at the half-way point in our chat, so if you have questions you'd like to ask Mr. O'Donnell, please ask them now.

Question from Michael Kidd, University of Virginia:
Please discuss the skills you think are necessary for the career opportunities in question. Many thanks.

James J. O'Donnell:
1. Solid academic grounding. 2. Curiosity, energy, restless desire to make things better. 3. Experience at the very least as an aggressive end user, putting technology to work in support of research, teaching, or publication. 4. "Enough" familiarity with the technological underpinnings to be an informed consumer and to be able to make intelligent judgments. -- So, to be a faculty leader in applying technology to teaching requires one level of skills; to be a technology administrator, "enough" is rather more; and to write code and make machines dance is, in a different way, more still But I would emphasize the soft skills -- "getting it" about technology and being able to imagine, implement, and communicate the excitement is crucial.

Comment from Bill Lantry, Catholic University:
We think we've got a model program for moving Humanities people into some of these new fields. It's called Faculty Partners, and we pair up graduate students with Professors who want to do more with electronic pedagogy. It helps the faculty, but most of all it helps the grad students. We do, of course, pay the students, though not as well as we should. I don't know if self promotion, but there's a website: http://facultypartners.cua.edu

Question from Tom Lewis, University of Minnesota:
I am a graduate student in classical history and literature...and an avid reader of the on-line BMCR! A few years ago, I left my academic pursuit in order to get a "real job," ending up as an editor. I have found that my training as a classicist has helped me greatly when it comes to dealing with language issues, as well as providing me with the mental discipline to thrive in the face of rapidly developing content technologies, etc. I understand that the Thesauri Linguae Graecae et Latinae were some of the first databases to use hypertext technology, and classics has been "up on" the latest trends in electronic media over the past decade. Are there new trends in IT evolution that you think will aid in the survival classical studies, and by extension, the Humanities in general? And, do you see trends in classics that will contributed to the development of IT and its derivatives? Thanks. tl

James J. O'Donnell:
I think we're lucky as classicists that lots of us are early adopters and are able to be leaders in this area -- see the profile of Georgia Nugent in the full Chron. this week -- and that advantage will continue to stand us in good stead. I think that it's not so much the technology as our own disciplinary tradition of focus on both "hard" and "soft" humanities that helps us. Visualization software will continue to liberate archaeologists; on-line teaching tools will make it possible to teach the languages better; and databases of texts (including framgnetary papyri and inscriptions) will make our research more productive and credible.

Question from John Macaulay, independent scholar:
Hello, I received my Ph.D. in American History in 1998 and have since been working as a systems analyst, all the while revising my dissertation for publication this summer. I am trying now to bridge my humanities background with my information systems experience and hope to return to academia in one or both capacities. Do you have any suggestions on how best to market myself, or better yet, are there any openings in your department for an author/independent scholar/systems analyst? Thank you for your time and consideration.

James J. O'Donnell:
It might make a lot of sense to look at the library world at this point. They are keenly aware of the need to use the best talent possible to exploit technology in support of publishing, archiving, and making available high quality information. Standard library periodicals carry a variety of position adverts that don't show in standard academic sources.

Question from Deborah Keyek-Franssen, University of Colorado at Boulder:
I'm at a stage in my life personally and professionally where I can consider a research agenda again. My Ph.D. is in German Literature, but I have strayed to the Dark Side of higher ed administration, working primarily on administrative/infrastructure issues at the campus level (although my job is shifting to be closer to the academic side of things-educational technology planning, IT programs, etc.). My question for you: should I consider a dual research agenda (German and IT), or just stick with research that relates to my current job? If I want to keep my options open and retain credibility with faculty members, will focusing only on IT do the trick? Because I'm not in the classroom any more, the possibility of research in an overlap area of educational technology methods for e.g. foreign language or literature instruction might be too much of a stretch. Any advice?

James J. O'Donnell:
Tales from the Dark Side! I personally love the light sword they gave me to use in emergencies and I'll hate to give it back when I take off the helmet and black robes. I always answer what should I do questions with some form of the old "whatever turns you on" mantra, and for what I think is a good reason: what you love, you do really well. Esp. if you're keeping the research agenda cooking on the side, it needs to be one that keeps you coming back automatically. A version of what I would tell students many years ago at Cornell. The campus there is located on a high hill overlooking town and valley, and many of the graduate students lived downtown. So what's a good topic, they would ask? One, I would say, that can get you up Buffalo Street hill on the 20th of January, when it's about 13 degrees out, the wind is in your face, and the precipitation is that particularly lovely mix we used to call "Ithacating". *That's* a good topic. The disincentives to research when you're in the admin. grind are a lot like that weather: and so the same rule applies. -- Hmm, can I talk you into starting a project to get the complete *Die Fackel* up online and searchable? :-)

Question from Daniel Gilfillan, U of Oregon:
I am a recent Ph.D. in German literature, and am currently co-directing a project at the U of Oregon called the Wired Humanities Project. As a budding computing humanist with a strong background in literary history, theory and close reading, I am wondering what skill areas you find important to have when applying for humanities computing positions? On another note, how do you explain what humanities computing is to your colleagues?

James J. O'Donnell:
"Humanities computing" means everything from high end computer-assisted textual analysis and database construction down to getting your @#*)@! machine to print to the new printer. I think most academics still think towards the low end, but when the results are impressive, can be made to think higher fairly easy. I think it's not so much the technical skills that count but the conceptual and communication skills that let you relate what technology can do to the existing hot button issues in research and teaching. Overpromising what technology can deliver doesn't work. Proving that you can make a difference for teaching and research does.

Question from Marcelo Clerici-Arias, Stanford University:
For universities like Stanford that are actively hiring humanities scholars in positions that are a hybrid between academics and IT, what sources of good people would you recommend? What ways of reaching them would you suggest? Thank you!

James J. O'Donnell:
Whenever my CIO colleagues and I meet from multiple institutions and somebody says, "hmm, do you know where I could find a good network engineer?", all around the room we harrumph and look down and mutter things like "not me, nope, I don't know nobody like that, nosirree". In other words, if I knew a pat answer, I'd be out hiring them there and wouldn't tell you! Hmm, maybe I should be recruiting at Stanford . . . But what I said to another question I think a bit earlier is relevant: you're going to go a lot farther and do more for your institution if you grow your own. Stanford is ideally located to do this and with the strong library-academic computing link you have, it wouldn't take much: I believe in fact, a fair amount of that already happens. And unpromising people can thrive: English and history majors aren't all good prospects, but more of them than you might think . . .

Question from Andrea Foster:
In terms of your career, do you anticipate staying in administration or moving back to full-time scholarship at some point? Is there a point where an administrator with a scholarly background becomes just another administrator, if he or she doesn't return to full-time scholarly or teaching work?

James J. O'Donnell:
Thanks to wise (I think) and understanding bosses, I just spent a year on leave, doing a gig as visiting faculty member at another institution. I come back with 100,000 words of a manuscript that is most of the way to becoming book and with a feeling my academic batteries are recharged and ready to go for another good stint. To me, that's absolutely necessary: I'm enjoying what I do, planning to continue, and at the same time utterly convinced that at some point my "inner scholar" will prevail. It just might be 10 or 15 years from now! I've kept teaching and writing (and also house-mastering 500 students) during my time in admin. and strongly believe it keeps me alert and relevant and useful in ways that wouldn't happen if I were just gliding in from the suburbs for my 8 or 12 hour day.

Question from Dr. Rebecca Wolfe, Wolfe Learning:
My humanities focus is in languages and literatures, and my teaching experience has ranged from teaching French to children to teaching English language and literature at the university level. What preparation (additional coursework, etc.) do you consider most essential for humanities professionals to obtain interviews with potential employers and then to perform well in their careers? I began using computers in 1985 and am competent in using them for many operations, but would like to add whatever new learning might enhance my application in this promising new direction for education.

James J. O'Donnell:
I would recommend that you (1) do interesting stuff and (2) think creatively about how to make that stuff visible and palpable on an attractive and tasteful website -- a good URL in the c.v. can wake people up. The point is not in this case to sell yourself as technologist, but as creative and innovative teacher. Show people that the technology pays off in results.

Question from Katherine Marsh, University of Rochester:
Mr. O'Donnell, I am currently completing the Master's degree program at UR. My focus is in text and meium, and I have hope of completing a digital thesis to demonstrate my enthusiasm for technology. What information can you offer to help students, faculty members, and administrators negotiate the transition from paper to pixels?

James J. O'Donnell:
Martin Luther had a mantra for his followers: "pecca fortiter". "Sin boldly" -- the idea was, you're going to sin, so you might as well live large and do what you're doing enthusiastically, including the sinning. The computer version of this, I think, is that it's better to ask forgiveness (afterwards) than permission (beforehand). *Show* people something that impresses them by its content and inventiveness and you'll do a lot more than you will by asking them to allow you to try.

Question from Glenn Everett, U of Tennessee at Martin:
Do you know of any studies being done by humanists on the impact of new modes of communication--like online exchanges--and the ways in which the content is changed by the medium?

James J. O'Donnell:
Jay Bolter at Georgia Tech and Sherry Turkle at MIT do interesting stuff, and my sense is there are lots of people beginning to ask these questions. Turkle's *Life on the Screen* precedes the real emergence of the web but is worth a look. Ah, and Janet Murray, also at MIT, *Hamlet on the Holodeck*, interesting in a different way.

Question from Andrea Foster:
Many faculty members fear that the push toward technology and distance education is resulting in a loss of faculty control over the curriculum and the academic direction of their institutions. From your perspective, are those fears justified? And do you think faculty members with those fears are doing a good job of articulating their concerns?

James J. O'Donnell:
I think there are a lot of factors pushing faculty out of the important rooms in some institutions, technology being one of the least of them. Lots depends on local governance and tradition. At Penn we flourish I think because we have a strong tradition of decentralization and local option: faculty have been the leaders in technology and have done some wonderful things -- technology is seen, I think, to be a sign of re-empowered faculty rather than the opposite. My suspicion is that every local case is different.

Question from Andrea Foster:
Do some humanities fields lend themselves more to technology expertise than others? Which ones and why?

James J. O'Donnell:
The variation is real but fairly narrow. Art historians still rightly object to the quality of images displayed on computer screens, so they don't have a "library of images" to work from like the TLG archive of Greek literature that's possible for a textual corpus of material. The purely textual is easier to process across many platforms. On the other hand, what *can* be done visually can be very powerful: but takes more technoskill. On balance, I think all humanities disciplines are substantially enhanced when IT is used intelligently, and it's happening in all disciplines.

Question from Patrick Rourke, private sector:
Two questions, if you don't mind: 1.) Do you think there's a danger that humanities computing positions in academia may eventually come to be treated as a ghetto for humanities Ph.D.'s who aren't seen as having "the right stuff" for a research or teaching appointment, pushing out those for whom the application of new technologies are a primary interest? 2.) What new directions in technology and related methodologies do you think show the most promise for application to humanities research? Thanks.

James J. O'Donnell:
(1) Does it count as a ghetto if the people inside are making as much or more than the people outside? It happens. There's no generalizing about what humanities computing jobs are or can be like: they can be dead end, or they can be the first step to a very satisfying and even rewarding career. Most of it depends on the individual doing the job. (2) I believe the next generation will see a lot of large collaborative projects (like the Perseus project) designed to build common working spaces, rich in data of every kind, for people to draw on for their research. I work on Augustine, who left 5 million words of Latin behind: what I *want* now is the online archive that's fully indexed, tagged with notes about dates and modern scholarship for every text, linkable and searchable across the database *and* linked with a dozen other large projects outside. That's the "workroom" I now need. There's a fair amount of such building to be done, and it gets right at the heart of what we need to be doing: deciding what's important and how to make the next generation of advances.

Question from Esther Paist, Thomas Edison State College:
I work for an institution that delivers all of its credit-bearing opportunities at a distance. How can I convince my colleagues here that a liberal arts education (my own graduate work was in musicoloby) is one that can equip one to work in information technology areas just as well (or better than) a technologies education can?

James J. O'Donnell:
Find them people to hire who are smart and quick and resourceful and interesting and eager. I think you have to prove this one with examples.

Question from Elizabeth Horan, Arizona State U and U of Michigan:
What are the arguments to convince upper-level university administrators that the humanities are vitally necessary to the university's using and advancing IT?

James J. O'Donnell:
Curious synergy of questions here at the end: the proof is in the pudding. There are exciting things going on in lots of places (you must know the Institute for Advanced Technology in the Humanities at Virginia? Sit a senior administrator down in a room and spend fifteen minutes showing her or him that sit and its riches). You *might* also ask your IT bosses to let you tabulate just where their IT staff came from academically: the data administration folks in our shop in particular are interestingly cross-disciplinary. One was a Greek major at Bryn Mawr, another collects translations of Homer from around the world, another I think was history: and it's their conceptual smarts that gives them the edge.

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
That's all the time we have today. Thanks, Mr. O'Donnell, for participating.

James J. O'Donnell:
Every time I finished with the questions on my screen and there was a pause, the software CHE uses said "There are no outstanding questions". Harrumph, I said, that's not how *I* teach. Good questions are what it's all about and there have been a lot of them here: my thanks to CHE for inviting me to sit in this afternoon and best wishes to all the ambitions and hopes of those who wrote in. jo'd

Andrea Foster (Moderator):
Thanks to everyone who sent in questions. A transcript of the chat will be posted here shortly. On behalf of The Chronicle, thanks for participating in today's Colloquy Live chat.