The Chronicle: Colloquy Live Transcript

Reviving Interest in the Classics

Thursday, May 24, at 2 p.m. U.S. Eastern time, 6 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time

How can classics departments attract more undergraduates?

Classics departments, once central in academe, have suffered through years of low enrollments and -- in some cases -- moves to eliminate their programs. Some colleges, however, have managed to achieve major increases in enrollments. Macalester College, one such institution, has used a variety of approaches to attract student interest -- including an emphasis on archaeological digs, a mix of traditional and modern courses, and an enthusiastic effort to recruit students.

» With Archaeology and a New Vision, Macalester Students Dig the Classics (5/25/2001)

			J. Andrew Overman (Photo by Steve Woit)

J. Andrew Overman is chairman of the classics department at Macalester, where he is credited with efforts that have revived the department and made it increasingly popular with undergraduates. Mr. Overman specializes in religion, culture, and ethnicity in the Greco-Roman world. He is the author of Church and Community in Crisis: The Gospel According to Matthew (Trinity Press), Matthew's Gospel and Formative Judaism: The Social World of Matthean Community (Fortress Press) and The First Jewish Revolt Against Rome: Archaeology, History, and Ideology (forthcoming from Routledge).

A transcript of the chat follows.

Andrew Brownstein (Moderator):
Good afternoon, and welcome to Colloquy Live. My name is Andy Brownstein, students editor here at The Chronicle, and I will be your moderator for today's discussion on the state of enrollment and teaching in academic classics departments.

Once central in academe, the classics have suffered through years of low enrollments and -- in some cases -- moves to eliminate such programs. Recently, however, some colleges have managed major increases in enrollments.

One such institution is Macalester College, where in the span of little more than a decade classics has grown from a moribund department to one of the healthiest programs in the country. It has used a variety of approaches -- including an emphasis on archaeological digs and a modern modes of thought like feminism -- to attract students and shed new light on antiquity.

Our guest today is J. Andrew Overman, the chair of the classics department at Macalester and chief architect of its recent renaissance. He comes to us today from Omrit, in the north of Israel, where he and students are in the process of excavating an ancient Roman temple.

Mr. Overman, welcome. To begin with, tell us a little bit about where you are and the project you're working on.

J. Andrew Overman:
It's 8:30 at night on Thursday in Israel and we are located right along the Lebanese border in the northern finger of Israel where Israel, Syria, and Lebanon meet. We are in our third season of excavations of the Roman period temple complex which seems to date of the time of the emperor Augustus. I discovered the temple complex with a colleague from Israel in the summer in 1998 after a fire here in the north exposed parts of the temple here in-situ. It's an interesting time to be in Israel. There's a lot happening in terms of archeological research in antiquity and there's a lot happening in terms of recent political developments. The students that are with us are able to experience both of those extremes -- political and religious developments in the past and present. There are 35 students here and 5 staff members running the project. We get up at 4:30 in the morning. We are digging by 5:00 a.m., and we are usually out of the field by noon because of the tremendous heat here. Yesterday we found an inscription. We have exposed a good portion of the temple podium and other parts of the complex. And we anticipate this project to last 8 to 10 more years.

Question from Andrew Brownstein, moderator:
What role does archaeology play in making the classics come alive?

J. Andrew Overman:
Archeology in our program has played an important role in stimulating the study of classics. We like to think of archeology as the humanities promise of new knowledge. What I mean by that is Plato hasn't written much lately and neither has Livy. Archeological research brings the hope of new data and new information about the ancient world and classical texts that we all study so closely. Archeology has always been a part of classical studies but in many parts of the American curriculum in recent past, it had been neglected or pushed to the periphery. At Macalester, we believe that the study of material culture from the classical world complements rigorous textual analysis very nicely. For scholars and students alike, working collaboratively in groups, reaching back together in the dirt and into the past, and retrieving it with one's own hands makes the classical world come alive and makes it real in a way that is very difficult to replicate in the classroom. All of those things contribute to excitement about he classical world, the study of classics generally, and the relevance today of classical studies.

Question from Tom, small private college in the Midwest:
Prof. Overman- Classics is often considered an ancient, dusty, and doddering field. How do you respond to such opinions, especially keeping in mind that it's difficult to attract the young 'uns?

J. Andrew Overman:
I think most academic subjects possess the possibility or potential to be dusty and arcane. Among the things that are important in speaking about classics to students is helping them make connections between the classical world and the world we live in today. That is particularly important, it seems to me, in a liberal arts context. In a liberal arts setting we tend to assert that whatever we study critically and discuss together, contains and bears contemporary applications. Failing to make that connection would certainly help make classics' inaccessibility more prominent. For example, the Greek and Roman worlds were global civilizations. Theirs was a globalized economy. How the Greek and Roman thinkers construed the world and described the world is a matter of interesting debate. But nevertheless, it is the case that when Virgil or Strabo think and write and argue, they do so in a setting where they have the whole world in mind. This would be simply one example of how great ancient thinkers and writers and politicians anticipate and prefigure a host of contemporary problems and questions. For sure, the classical world as such tackled and wrestled with questions that we confront on our own campuses, in our own classrooms, and in our own cultures today. Those connections are important for classicists to make, and indeed, I think that I would claim, that's one of the mandates of teaching classics today at the start of a new century.

Question from Peter Monaghan, reporter:
During the "culture wars" of the 1980's and '90's, critics charged that colleges were failing to keep classics in its proper, central place in higher education and that classicists were failing to defend ancient texts from such movements as feminism, which Allan Bloom called "the latest enemy of the vitality of classic texts." How do those charges strike you now?

J. Andrew Overman:
First, I thought the marvelously article on classics written in The Chronicle this week broached the topic quite well. If I may paraphrase part of that article, it seems now that the so-called culture wars were somewhat of a red herring. There was no Trojan horse inside classics curriculum that threatened to kill it. If Homer was on his deathbed ever in the last few decades, it was because some people, quite astonishingly, could not make the diverse and exciting world of classics come alive in their classrooms. If Homer is dead on some campuses, that is why.

Question from Peter Monaghan, reporter:
To what degree is attracting students to classical studies a matter of pitching it better than it was pitched in the past?

J. Andrew Overman:
Any teacher has the potential to make any subject exciting or deadly. If there was a trend in classics over the last few decades, I think it was probably a premeditated narrowing of the classical world and the classical cannon, which made a wonderfully diverse and vibrant world seem closed and limited.

Question from Barbara Kurtz, Chair, For. Langs., Illinois State U.:
What differences do you see between recruiting for classics and recruiting in the modern languages? What is the ideal role of classics with a foreign languages department?

J. Andrew Overman:
Classics, of course, has one of its central features language instruction. So, like all foreign language departments, classicists have to continue to work at foreign language pedagogy. We don't have to teach Latin the way it was taught at Eton 150 years ago. Similarly, French and Russian and Japanese teachers must continue to work at transforming their language pedagogy. So classicists and other foreign language teachers share this challenge.

Secondly, all foreign language instructors, including classicists, have an opportunity before them that many other disciplines do not have. That is, we all have the possibility of taking our students to the place we are studying and discussing. This is not something math teachers possess. So the international component that we have in our department is very important. And I encourage Russian teachers to take their students to St. Petersburg, or French teachers to take their students to Francophone countries. It's this off-campus component, this international component to our language teaching that holds a certain promise or key to our success.

Question from Robert Gervasi, McKendree College:
In view of students' preoccupation with career preparation, what are some cogent responses today to the question of the "usefulness" of the classics--beyond the usual liberal arts generalizations? What are Macalester's classics majors doing after graduation?

J. Andrew Overman:
That's a great question. And it's a question that students and parents are always asking, of course. Our students, probably like many others, go on to do a wide range of things. We have a number of students in graduate school in classics, preparing to be classics teachers and archaeologists. We have, in recent years, four or five graduates who have taken jobs in museums and are now curators. But we have many students who have gone on to law school, and some to medical school, and one of my favorites, a woman who did her senior thesis on the history of fairies, and is now a very successful international consultant for Arthur Anderson. But two things about classics are important with respect to the job market. I have found employers are very attracted to students who have acquired a knowledge of foreign languages and students who have traveled and studied abroad. It is still the case that those two components are lacking in many American students. But when classics is studied and enacted properly, our students possess a lot of both of those things. Therefore, they are highly marketable individuals.

Question from Diane Rayor, Grand Valley State University, Michigan:
The Classics Department at Grand Valley State University in Michigan was started from scratch and is now one year old. We have five faculty, including an archaeologist. While our first year enrollments were good, we need to grow. What recommendations do you have for this brand new department to help attract and keep undergraduates? Thank you.

J. Andrew Overman:
First, the answers to that important question usually have pronounced local aspects to them, so without knowing your context, it's difficult for me to be specific. But, I think there are some generally principles that can be applied most places. First, I would say it's very important for the classics department at Grand Valley State to enjoy each other. One of the most important things about developing a culture in your department that is attractive to students is to develop first a positive faculty culture. If the faculty in the department work well together, enjoy one another, and are productive together, the students see that and they are drawn to it. Secondly, become part of the process which opens up the classical world to your students. Specifically, find a way to personally take your students into the classical world. Travel with them to Athens, Rome, Egypt, or Israel. When they smell these places, see them, and touch them, their lives will never be the same. Lastly, it isn't overstating it to say that classics justifiably claims a central role in the undergraduate curriculum. Therefore, the new classics department at your university should be creative in the way that it works with other departments. History, theater, art history, and anthropology should be your colleagues and compatriots in the courses you teach and the programs you develop.

Question from Marty Liddy, Milwaukee Area Technical College:
Outcome studies are very important in today's education climate. Has anyone ever determined the average starting salary for a classics major without an advanced degree?

J. Andrew Overman:
Not to my knowledge, but a good question. If you ever find the answer, please e-mail it to me.

Question from Peter Monaghan, reporter:
Classicists seem constantly worried that their discipline is on the edge of doom, but it always seems to survive. Are your colleagues more anxious than they need to be?

J. Andrew Overman:
Yes and no. Yes because if any discipline in higher education has stood the test of time, surely it's classics. It's hard to imagine a college curriculum without Plato or Cicero or ancient Rome in it. No, however, because higher education is guided by financial and outcome issues in a way it never has been before. The application of classics to careers and incomes is not always immediately evident. Naturally, I am a great believer in how classical training equips you to do many, many things. But in our contemporary climate, many administrators and probably parents wouldn't be so quick to agree with me. So therefore, it is the job of a classicist to make her or his apology or case for why classics is important.

Question from Scott Jaschik, editor:
What first attracted you to the classics? Are there common things that attracted professors to the field, and are they significantly different from the things that attract students today?

J. Andrew Overman:
Great questions. I first got interested in the classical world through my interest in ancient Judaism and ancient Christianity. As I studied those people and their tests I became more and more enthralled in the broader classical world in which they lived. I eventually felt the study of simply those texts was limiting, and it even turns out that some of those texts don't always tell the truth, and that's what led me into archeology and research in the material culture of the ancient world. As to your second question, some students of the classics may share a path similar to mine, but I suspect for most, it is simply that the classical world, when one enters it, is very compelling, contains great writers, issues and questions that are truly timeless and gripping. Once students begin to tackle them and engage them, they can't get out.

Question from Ting Kwok, Non-Academic:
Besides being a professor, why would someone pursue graduate level work in ancient Greek?

J. Andrew Overman:
Without meaning to sound facetious, I would say: To learn more. Ancient Greek texts and realia is an enormous topic, a theater or marketplace of ideas and dreams, and worth pursuing for that reason.

Question from D. Held, Conn. Coll.:
I understand the appeal of archaeology to undergrads. I also support as well as practice the move to broaden the intellectual and cultural context of Classics. Nonetheless, on many a campus Greek language courses are in peril. Particularly beyond the first year, they become "boutique" courses in danger in these financial times. At a time when archaeology is increasingly specialized and some archaeologists downplay the importance of the ancient languages, how does your program address the challenge of getting students into language courses?

J. Andrew Overman:
That's a challenge that we all share, so it's an important question. Archeology and classics is distinguished from, say, archeology based in anthropology, among other ways, by the language component. So it's important to keep the languages prominent and, for those students interested in archeology, help them understand how difficult it will be for them to do their jobs if they don't understand the languages. Today's archeology students may be very attracted to new technologies like AutoCad or global positioning systems. But the ancient languages are essential tools and "technologies" for them also. It help, I think, to help them see the languages thusly. Secondly, however, while I don't suggest that this is the case at Connecticut College, I do think that many of us, that is classics and foreign language teachers, tend to view teaching the language as tertiary or peripheral, especially the elementary level languages. A lot of language teachers are eager to teach upper-level language courses, where they can also, at the same time, teach critical literary theory or study advanced writers in their particular language. When that is the case, oftentimes the elementary levels suffer. They can even be taught by part-timers, or someone hired just to teach that one course. When that occurs, I think the upper-level language courses will be dead in the water because the students comprehend that the department is not that excited about the elementary level of the language, and they won't continue to pursue the language.

Question from Owen Cramer, Colorado College:
Do you have allies at Macalester in the pursuit of material culture as a central academic concern? If so, who? (archaeologist in the Anthro. Dept.?)

J. Andrew Overman:
Yes. I think the answer to that question on most campuses ought to be yes. Archeology is an inherently collaborative discipline. I am the director of fairly substantial excavations here in Israel, and I could not possibly do my job without the help and collaboration of geologist, geographers, ancient historians, architects, and art historians. So all of those disciplines, and others, constitute necessary components of any archeology program. Students who major in classical archeology at Macalester must take courses in geology and geography, and may elect to take courses in art history, ceramics, and curatorial studies, for example. So those are our natural and intellectual colleauges in our archeological work.

Question from Jack,small liberal arts college:
With all of the academic demands of a classics department, how do you manage the field work? Does not that imply a whole new set of skills?

J. Andrew Overman:
I agree with Jack's assumptions. And I agree, Jack, that a classics department and a classics curriculum is demanding. We are teaching 3 or 4 foreign languages, not one. And we are teaching history and literature courses, and so-called culture courses. In addition to that, you are exactly right, field work feels like another full-time job. It's a lot to manage and juggle, yes. But, one could argue that fieldwork is simply another sub-field or specialty that some classicists have developed. Some classicists specialize in epigraphy or mumismatics. I've chose to specialize in field archeology.

Question from Peter Monaghan, reporter:
A traditional-minded classicist once told the Chronicle: "Calls for privileging the European tradition have fallen on deaf ears. I don't think classicists believe in the moral value of the texts we teach anymore." Was he right?

J. Andrew Overman:
There are two parts to the assertion of the classicist you reference. First, the person you quote asserts that classics is a European tradition, and I don't agree with that. Many of the writers and cultures that comprise the classical world were not European. So when you study classics, you are studying the Mediterranean world and Asia Minor and Egypt and Eurasia and the Middle East, as well as Athens and Rome. So to say that classics is a European traditions is erroneous, misleading, and limiting.

But, it is true that a lot of classical studies has been passed on by and refracted through previous European thinkers and centers. And that, in my mind, simply adds another interesting layer to the study of classics. When one studies the classical world and classical text, we can also, if we are so inclined, how Europeans appropriated classical material to their own world.

With respect to morality, there's plenty or morality and immorality in the classical cannon. And I don't see interest in that or study of that waning in any respect. The continued vibrancy of classical studies is due, I think, in large measure, to the morals and lessons -- both for good and for ill -- they contain.

Andrew Brownstein (Moderator):
Mr. Overman, we have come to the close of today's chat. Thank you very much for an enjoyable, lively discussion.

J. Andrew Overman:
Thank you, Andy, and thank you to the others, my colleagues, who participated this afternoon. I hope that we can continue to discuss and advance these issues in the months and years ahead. Thank you all.