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Rich Colleges for Rich Kids
Wednesday, May 10, at 12 noon, U.S. Eastern time
Colleges with the most money do a poor job serving students with the least. A Chronicle analysis of federal Pell Grant data for the 2004-5 academic year shows that just 14 percent, on average, of the undergraduates at the country's 59 richest private colleges were Pell Grant recipients. On the flagship campuses of the 31 best-endowed public universities, they made up 20 percent. That's compared with nearly one-third of students at all four-year public and private colleges.
In the last few years, some two dozen top public and private colleges have announced efforts to expand financial aid, but is that enough? How can colleges identify and recruit high-achieving applicants from low-income families -- particularly public universities with mandates to draw substantial numbers of students from within the state? How can they help needy students acclimate to a campus culture that may be very different from what the students are used to?
And what is at stake in those programs? Does it matter if impoverished students do not attend expensive colleges?
» Elite Colleges Lag in Serving the Needy (5/12/2006)
» Well-Heeled U. of Virginia Tries to Balance Access With Prestige (5/12/2006)
Anthony W. Marx is president of Amherst College. To enroll more needy students, he has advocated increasing overall admissions and recruiting academic stars from disadvantaged high schools.
Karin Fischer (Moderator):
Hi, I'm Karin Fischer, a reporter at The Chronicle. This week we published the second installment in our continuing series on the haves and the have nots in higher education. The piece looked at how -- and how well -- the nation's wealthiest colleges are serving low-income students. We're grateful to Anthony W. Marx, the president of Amherst College, for joining us today to talk about socioeconomic diversity at elite institutions. Let's begin!
Question from Luke, Washington DC:
What do you see as the responsibility of private colleges to public education? Does it extend beyond increased economic diversity?
Anthony W. Marx:
I believe that it does extend beyond access and admissions. We are leaders in the education sector as a whole and must press for improved public schools to ensure the quality of applicants we need - to say nothing of our interests in education more generally. We should also be able to come up with some ideas for debate.
Question from Will Dix, U of Chicago Lab H.S.:
How feasible would it be for wealthy colleges to identify and work with needy but bright students BEFORE their junior or senior years in college? It seems to me that waiting until the end of high school and then cherry-picking the best students isn't necessarily the best way to address the overall inequities of our educational and admission systems. Wealthy colleges may have a larger responsibility than just harvesting the "best" kids for themselves.
Anthony W. Marx:
Hi Will. Great to hear from you. I could not agree more. First, we need to work with the public schools, but we can also do more ourselves. We have begun a telementoring program that gives star secondary students from less privileged backgrounds advice from our current students. In other words, sophomores and juniors in high schools are getting advice from our students. And we are happy to offer that service whether or not the high school students end up applying to Amherst. I can imagine that in the future we might consider not only extending this program, but also adding substantive subject tutoring.
Question from Julio Alves, Smith College:
A rich, prestigious college like Amherst will have no trouble attracting "needy" students, but has it thought through what it takes to support them, retain them, and enable them to succeed?
Take writing, for example. The writing center at Amherst is a barebones operation, and last I read in the Amherst Student (student paper), many traditional students are dissatisfied with writing instruction in first-year seminars. These weaknesses in writing instruction will be much magnified for "needy" students, who usually need intense writing instruction in their first year and on-going, professional support throughout their college career. Peer tutoring does not usually do the trick.
To my knowledge, Amherst has a couple of excellent professionals in support positions (writing, quantitative skills), but nowhere near the level it takes to support a large number of "needy" students AND train faculty to work with these students.
Anthony W. Marx:
Of course our responsibilities extend beyond admissions. In fact, we are working across the board on these issues. On writing, to use your example, the faculty is currently debating a writing requirement for all students, more intensive sections for those needing more support, and we have proposed additional resources to help students and also to help faculty learn how to teach writing more effectively.
Question from Matthew Schwieger, Stanford University:
At elite universities and colleges, statistics suggest that poor students of all races are scarce. How can "diversity" be redefined to encompass the poor and lower income? Do you think campuses are willing to accept such a paradigm shift?
Anthony W. Marx:
That is exactly the project we are engaged in, among others. And we are not alone, as indicated by the recent efforts and announcements of Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. One interesting question is whether elites colleges moving on this issue can have a ripple effect throughout higher education, and whether that ripple can be a positive one. We certainly don't want to see the elite college arms race provoke even more use of merit aid by less wealthy institutions, as that would produce less funding for those most in need. As to definitions, at Amherst we define the target population in part based on Pell grant eligibility and also requests to waive admissions fees. We hope that institutions will compete on this front, much as we compete on others.
Question from Sara Hebel, The Chronicle of Higher Education:
Relatively few institutions have large enough endowments to engage in what you have referred to as a "college-aid arms race" to attract students from low-income families. Given such limits, do you believe broad progress can be made in expanding access to American higher education in ways that will close the socioeconomic gaps in college-going rates? What new ideas or approaches should policy makers and college leaders try?
Anthony W. Marx:
There are real resource constraints, no doubt. I do believe that leadership by elite institutions can change the conversation on this subject - indeed, already has - even if it doesn't change the resource distribution among institutions. At the least, we should be pressing for using whatever resources we can for such access, and not for climbing walls or merit aid for those less in need. Beyond that, I do think this issue will provoke an even broader conversation about how we fund higher education in this country. Public universities are losing funding just when the economy needs more skilled labor. And the financial model of private colleges is potentially unsustainable, especially for those institutions with less resources.
Question from Harris, Bryn Mawr, PA:
Do you see service or volunteerism as part of the academic mission of a college?
Anthony W. Marx:
I do. I hope that Amherst will soon make a major move in terms of expanded opportunities for service and internships, and connecting that much more fully to the curriculum. I believe that students need such experiences to inform and enliven their analysis of pressing issues, and that such analysis can then also be brought to bear on further experience.
Question from A. Crume, state university system:
Do you have any recommendations on how to better identify low-income high achieving students for recruitment purposes?
Anthony W. Marx:
We use our own current students from such backgrounds as mentors to high school students identified as most promising. We also ask our students to go back to their own high schools. Our alumni are increasingly involved in partnering with high schools in less affluent neighborhoods. We are also asking our alumni who are teachers to be on the look out for stars. And we use the services of QuestBridge, which was described in the current Chronicle -- indeed, we were charter members of that organization. We are also working with the College Board to develop a system to identify the most promising students from less affluent backgrounds so that we can reach out to them and assure them that Amherst is a place for them and that our aid makes it possible for them to join us.
Question from J Poorman, Berklee College of Music:
Can you be specific about the kinds of support services (peer networks, academic support, etc) that your institution is providing these students - and do you have any data on what has been successful?
Anthony W. Marx:
We have a writing center and a quantitative skills center. We also have intensive summer programs. We have a new peer academic mentor program beginning. We have a faculty student ratio that makes it possible for us to pay individual attention to all students. Our strategic planning process also has put forward additional possibilities. We are assessing all of these and new efforts as we go. There is also much literature on these issues and effectiveness that we draw upon.
Karin Fischer (Moderator):
We're now at the half-way point of the chat, so please keep those questions coming.
Question from Grad student, U. of Penn.:
What role do you think the U.S. News rankings play in how poorly colleges do in enrolling needy students?
Anthony W. Marx:
This is a more complicated issue than can be explained even partly by rankings. While it is not the fault of the rankings, the fact is that better off students are better prepared for the SATs and the rankings do reward higher SATs. One solution might be for rankings to also measure institutions in terms of economic diversity and access, which would create a competitive pressure on that front as well.
Question from Karin Fischer:
One of my colleagues here passed on this question: Do you think the intense focus on minority enrollment in the last decade, culminating with the Michigan cases, took the focus off low-income students?
Anthony W. Marx:
I do not think it helpful nor accurate to pit economic diversity against racial diversity. Elite colleges have not been very economically diverse for a long time and remain so. We have become much more racially diverse and must hold onto that achievement as we address the economic issues.
Question from J Poorman, Berklee College of Music:
The problem with service initiatives & required internships is that the poorer students who are working to make book and pocket money cannot take advantage of these opportunities. One of the questions I am most interested in pursuing is the idea of 'gapping' financial aid (packaging aid up to a certain point and leaving a gap for the student to fill with loans or work). The other question is, of course, the amount of debt that we are asking students to take on to achieve higher education. Suggestions, ideas?
Anthony W. Marx:
I agree that we can't load up aid students with work and then expect them to succeed on campus. Aid policies should not go down that road or we will find ourselves smugly concluding that such students couldn't make it in the first place. I am also concerned about the loan burden. At Amherst, we do not expect loans from the least well-off, but I am still concerned about the loan burden on the middle class. This is all part of a financial system for private colleges that is simply getting out of control. At Amherst, we are considering massive further reductions in any loan expectations, but of course not every institution will be able to follow suit.
Question from Matthew Schwieger, Stanford University:
Can you describe the project you're involved in? Considering the recent financial aid developments at Harvard, Yale, and Stanford (and others), how can schools be held accountable when it comes to admission of low-income students? There certainly is a difference between admission of 50 low-income students at a school 1,500 and 100 at a school of 10,000, how can we be sure schools are making a concerted effort on the behalf of poor and low-income students?
Anthony W. Marx:
We need clear measures and public accountability. That is why we are trying to be as transparent about this as possible and hope others will do likewise.
Question from Julio Alves, Smith College:
"Token" financially needy students, very often students of color, often feel isolated at prestigious elite institutions and end up dropping out or transferring. Have you given any thought to numbers, and what percentage of the student body these students ought to constitute?
Anthony W. Marx:
At Amherst, over half our students are on aid and we have the highest percentage of students of color of any Ivy or little Ivy. Certainly critical mass is important. I should add that our graduation rate for all students, including of color, is over 96%. Last year, 100% of our African-American students graduated.
Question from Karin Fischer:
A question from my colleague Jeff Brainard: As Karin's article demonstrated, there is variation among colleges in the percentage of low-income students they enroll. Amherst set a goal of increasing the number of these slots by 20 per year. How did you select this number, and how will you know when you've reached the right level? In other words, is there a good rule of thumb to guide colleges in setting a goal for this enrollment?
Anthony W. Marx:
We have not set a fixed target, though we do make estimates in order to imagine budget implications of various numbers. The 20 student per year example comes out of the fact that we will have about 80 extra spaces on campus, and with that increase would project ourselves further into the lead on this issue among our peers. We are committing ourselves to find a broader pool of student applicants and will assess as we go. I should add that eighty more full-aid students implies an additional expense for us requiring about $80 million in endowment.
Question from Samantha, Boston, MA:
Is it the responsibility of an elite institution such as Amherst College to stop the 'amenities arms race' that goes on among the top institutions? For example, at what point do the needs of low-income students outweigh the need for a new state-of-the-art student center or athletic facility? This is evidently a competition issue, as each institution feels the need to 'outbuild' or to at least keep up with peer institutions in order to attract competitive students. But where does the responsibility to end this trend-setting lie? Or how can we reshape the trend instead towards aid and support services?
Anthony W. Marx:
We are trying to redefine the arms race generally into a more socially productive arena.
Question from David R. Smedley, Gwynedd Mercy College Center for Lifelong Learning:
Following up on the US news question, do you feel that schools should do more to publish statistics on the amount and type of sustenance they provide to students in the form of student aid? The HEA debate pointed towards mandating some reporting for the COOL database. Couldn't a private voluntary vehicle, like the Common Data Set, be a more robust avenue and spur a better, more informed discussion and debate on this area of public policy?
Anthony W. Marx:
Yes. I believe in more information and would be happy to see that required.
Question from Carl, Iowa:
Among many populations that are often ignored by society-at-large, low-income and poor whites are a highly stigmatized population and, from my experiences and research, are relatively uncommon at elite universities and colleges. How can the study of Whiteness assist in bring low-income and poor whites into the realm of diversity?
Anthony W. Marx:
Obviously, as we take class issues more seriously and admit to them, we are moving in the direction you suggest. Clearly, poorer white students have been missing at elite institutions, though again I believe we can and should address that without pitting those students against our continuing need also for racial diversity. The fundamental point is that we are looking for talent where ever it is, and will not accept any constraints on our efforts at access.
Question from John Stewart, college access organization:
Instead of nationally recognized elite colleges/universities attempting to recruit low-income students from all 50 states to their campuses, why not focus solely on their immediate surroundings? (Yale could establish a partnership with New Haven, Hartford and Bridgeport, Princeton with Newark and Jersey City, Harvard with Boston, etc.)
Anthony W. Marx:
THE Jon Stewart? We are doing both, for instance with a recently announced grant from the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation to work with local community colleges to identify possible star transfer applicants.
Question from Bill Skocpol, Boston University:
I know you've given some thought to the relative deprivation experienced by a working class kid on the same small campus with rich kids with fancy sports cars. How can you begin to establish a climate where one "shows off" by helping others?
Anthony W. Marx:
Hi Bill. Hope you and family are well. Important question, of course. We can create incentives and great programs to get all of our students doing service and internships together. Maybe all of our students should be doing some work on campus as well, as at Berea. We are also looking for new ideas about equalizing experiences more generally, e.g. paying travel for some parents to come to visit who could not otherwise join parents' weekend, and we do provide very generous start-up grants for incoming aid students. But because there will be issues here that we may not even have thought of, we need to get advice from those who have direct experience of these issues. I have hired the first "green dean" in my office, a first generation Latina, to help us think this through, and we are also asking our students for thoughts and suggestions. It is an exciting project to see students engage in, particularly compared to other ways they might fill their time. My general sense is that our students are looking for ways to serve and to find greater meaning. The more we can feed that inclination, the more they will reach out for each other and become more sensitive to differences of all kinds. Indeed, we may already see students self select for Amherst on such bases. Beyond Amherst, we need the next generation to take this up more fully; to rebuild social capital, if I may borrow a phrase from your household.
Question from A. Crume, state university system:
As previously mentioned, Amherst is one of the leaders in Higher Education in making strides toward the recruitment and retention of these students. Are you sharing your strategies and tactics with the other colleges and universities within Massachusetts i.e. task force? If so, please elaborate. Thank you for taking the time to participate in this important discussion.
Anthony W. Marx:
Absolutely. I am trying to be as public and open about this as I can. We discuss this issue at every meeting of college presidents I go to.
Karin Fischer (Moderator):
Thank you to President Marx for his thoughtful answers and to all of you for your questions. We're sorry we couldn't get to all of them. Thank you for joining us!