The Chronicle of Higher Education
The Chronicle of Higher Education: Colloquy

The Future of Europe

Thursday, July 7, at 1 p.m., U.S. Eastern time

The topic

For more than 50 years, the nations of Europe have been creeping toward economic and political unity. Last year, the European Union unveiled a draft constitution that was designed to streamline and harmonize the operations of the various bureaucracies in Brussels. But this spring, voters in France and the Netherlands decisively rejected the constitution in popular referenda. Two weeks later, a summit of European leaders collapsed in acrimony.

Now a political theorist at Harvard University is weighing in with an argument for a truly unitary European state. Glyn Morgan believes that if Europe is truly serious about balancing American military and diplomatic power, it should become a single sovereign state with a single military and foreign policy. More generally, he argues that most of the EU's supporters -- and most of its "Euroskeptic" opponents -- must answer fundamental questions about sovereignty, the purpose of the EU, and the costs and benefits of integration.

Is his argument persuasive? Would a single military and foreign policy be beneficial, or even possible? What are the prospects for the more immediate goal of European economic integration?

  » Making the Case for a United States of Europe (7/8/2005)

The guest

Glyn Morgan is an associate professor of government and social studies at Harvard University. He earned a Ph.D. in political science at the University of California at Berkeley in 1998. His forthcoming book is The Idea of a European Superstate: Public Justification and European Integration (Princeton University Press, September). He is now at work on books about terrorism and anti-Americanism.


A transcript of the chat follows.

David Glenn (Moderator):
    Welcome to the Chronicle's colloquy on European political integration. Many thanks to Glyn Morgan for taking time to be here.


Glyn Morgan:
    It's very nice to be here. Thank you for hosting me. I know that this is a day, when for many people their thoughts are elsewhere. I have lots of family and friends in London and I hope they are all OK.


Question from David Glenn:
    The miserable news from London this morning is yet another reminder of the power of (apparently) stateless terrorist cells. Some international-relations theorists have suggested that threats like these can't be analyzed or addressed within a state-centered, realist, balance-of-power framework.

How do you reply to that line of argument? In terms of confronting the perpetrators of the Madrid and London attacks, does it really make any difference how Europe is configured?

Glyn Morgan:
    The first few paragraphs of the conclusion to the book came back to me this morning when I turned on the news. I'll repeat them here:

Imagine that on September 11 next year, terrorists based somewhere in the Magreb fly hijacked passenger jets into the Westminster parliament, the Reichstag, the Vatican, and the Louvre. These attacks kill thousands. Let it further be imagined that the United States is either preoccupied with China or, in the wake of the recent disasters in Iraq, has lost all appetite for foreign military intervention. After years of complaining about US unilateralism, Europeans now fulminate against US isolationism.

It is worth bearing this scenario in mind, because given existing military capabilities, Europe’s nation-states, acting either singly or jointly, would be unable to conduct anything resembling the operation that the United States conducted to destroy Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan in October and November of 2001. If terrorists based in camps in the Magreb—perhaps protected by a friendly host government--promised to repeat their attacks, there would be little that European powers could -- other than fulminate against US isolationism -- do about it.

It is partly in recognition of Europe’s current military weakness and its one-sided dependence on the United States that a number of European political leaders have said that Europe needs to become a “superpower.” Most of these political leaders want to see Europe become a “superpower” without becoming a “superstate.” Some intellectual proponents of a post-sovereign Europe believe that Europe could become a “superpower” -- albeit a “superpower” of a new and different type -- while operating under a radically-decentered form of “mixed government.”

The arguments of the last few chapters have tried to show that when situated in a context of violence, conflict, and wide disparities of power between states, many of the prevailing assumptions about European political integration look rather naïve.

I pretty much stand by that argument.


Question from Pete Mackey, at an educational foundation:
    My wife and I lived in Ireland for two years, 2000-02. Like people throughout Europe now, especially young people, we traveled widely, thanks to the low airfares and easy border crossings that typify today's EU. Does not the resulting level of interaction, inter-marriage, and cultural and economic exchange this massive flow of people across the EU countries is generating create a level of integration that makes some of the more forcible bureaucratic proposals moot, or at least less about integration and more about consolidating political power in Brussels?

Glyn Morgan:
     This is an interesting point. Clearly, Europeans today travel much more within Europe. Perhaps we are on the verge of seeing something like a European-wide common culture. I would not, however, want to draw too sharp a distinction between the "voluntary" social exchanges you describe and "forcible" political or bureaucratic integration, simply because many of the social exchanges you describe were made possible by regulatory measures adopted in Brussels.


Question from James S. Taylor, Univ. of Aveiro, Portugal:
    Did the EU err by first moving forward economically with the Euro, instead of advancing politically with the Constitution?

Glyn Morgan:
     Yes. The Euro was established as much for political as for economic reasons. I think Europe ought to have proceeded much further politically and socially, before setting up a common curency and monetary policy. I'm generally in favor of European political integration. Yet, if I were to vote today in a British referendum on adopting the Euro, I would vote "No." I still think the long-term success of the Euro remains in doubt. Recent rumblings in Italy are, I suspect, the first of many.


Question from David Glenn:
    Could you briefly sketch your model of a "democratic model of justification," and explain why such forms of justification are important to the project of European political integration?

Glyn Morgan:
    I’m glad you asked that, because the Chronicle article gives a slightly misleading idea of the focus of the book. I do have my own highly opinionated views on how the European Union should be organized. I think -- although admittedly hardly anyone else does -- that Europe should form a unitary sovereign state. But that’s really only part of what the book is about. I’m a political theorist. And this is a work of political theory -- applied political theory, as I like to think of it. I think political theorists, if they are not to become irrelevant, need to work with important real world issues. People’s positions on European integration are constructed from facts, values, and arguments. The task of applied political theory is to probe those facts, values, and arguments.

The central claim of the book is that the EU is less in need of an institutional fix than a justificatory fix. The project of European integration needs, if it is go any further, a debate about this project’s point or purpose. Europe has gone as far as it can as an elite-led project. Europeans need to pose the question: what’s the justification for European political integration? Political theorists can help them answer this question.

Unfortunately, political theorists have tended to ignore the issue of justification in favor of a debate about Europe’s (alleged) “democratic deficit.” The assumption here is that many of Europe’s popularity problems can be attributed to the fact that Europe’s institutions are insufficiently democratic. That argument always struck me as silly for at least two reasons. One, Europe’s institutions are not much less democratic than those of Europe’s member states. And two, Eurosceptics tend to object not to the democratic failures of Europe’s institutions but to their very existence. I think political theorists ought to focus on the justificatory challenge posed by Eurosceptics. The book makes a stab at this justificatory challenge. It does so in three stages.

Stage one defends what I call a democratic theory of justification. This part of my argument is indebted to the later work of John Rawls. I argue that any fundamental constitutional transformation needs to meet a stringent justificatory hurdle. Not just any argument will do. I argue that a democratic theory of justification must satisfy three requirements: (a) a requirement of publicity; (b) a requirement of accessibility, and (c) a requirement of sufficiency. In working out this part of my argument, I’m indebted not just to John Rawls but also to Gerry Gaus, Steve Macedo, Tim Scanlon, Chris Bertram and others who have thought through the idea of public justification.

Stage two examines some of the most common arguments for European political integration in the light of this democratic theory of justification. I focus on two particular types of argument that have been put forward by proponents of European political integration -- welfare-based arguments and security-based arguments. In my discussion of welfare-based arguments, I focus primarily on the contrasting sets of arguments put forward by Jϋrgen Habermas and Friedrich Hayek. Habermas represents the social democratic perspective; Hayek represents the classical liberal perspective. Broadly stated, their arguments capture, if at a more sophisticated theoretical level, much of what’s at stake in the current debate -- thrown up by the French referendum -- over "social Europe” and “liberal Europe.”

Stage three defends a particular type of security-based justification for European political integration. Security, as I understand it, is a complex value that includes at its core a conception of non-dependence. Here my argument is indebted to various contemporary neo-republican political theorists such as Richard Bellamy and Philip Pettit.


Question from David Glenn:
    Could you flesh out your claim that the EU's institutions are not much less democratic than the member nations' own governments?

Many scholars of the EU insist that Brussels suffers from a serious democratic deficit. Alex Warleigh's recent book, for example, argues that the democratic deficit is serious, and that it "arose from the mistaken institutional design and developmental trajectory respectively given to and hoped for the Union by its key founders, who created technocratic structures that were supposed to create a federal state by stealth (and thus in the absence of public engagement, or even knowledge)."

Glyn Morgan:
    The "democratic deficit" debate has, in my opinion, attracted far more attention than it deserves. True, there are undemocratic features of the EU. The same holds true for most "democratic" states--there's nothing terribly democratic about the U.S. Supreme Court or the Electoral College, for instance.

The more important point to recognize, I think, is that were the EU to become much more democratic -- say, by empowering the European Parliament -- the EU would immediately become even less legitimate in the eyes of European voters than is now the case.

The EU suffers from a justification deficit rather than a democracy deficit. Many ordinary citizens have no clear view of why it ought to exist and why it ought to be granted more powers.


Question from Theodore Kariotis, University of Maryland:
    When you are a family of 15 and you have major problems in the family, you never add 10 more members in such a dysfunctional family. Do you think that this large expansion was a fatal blow to EU?

Glyn Morgan:
    If you are a family of 15, do you wish to have 10 neighbors who are destitute and killing themselves? Almost certainly not. In other words, I think European Enlargement was a necessary and desirable step. I do, however, worry that the social and economic changes -- both in the former EU15 and in the new member states -- that Enlargement will bring about are changes that many Europeans are neither prepared for nor aware of. To reiterate an earlier point: I think that Europeans are in desperate need of political education. They need to understand why Europe added these new 10 members.


Question from David Glenn:
    What do you think of the argument recently put forward by T.R. Reid, Jeremy Rifkin, and other analysts, to the effect that Europe already represents a powerful and attractive alternative to the U.S. model of political economy and international relations?

Glyn Morgan:
    I find this line of argument unpersuasive. Reid and Rifkin -- whose books, I hasten to add, I found very provocative and enormously enjoyable -- both believe (to put it crudely) that Europe circa 2004 has reached the promised land. R. and R. seem to think, from what I recall, that Europe (i) has established a more humane model of society than the United States; (ii) is better prepared to meet the challenges of the new century; and (iii) has wisely abandoned military power in favor of alternative more useful forms of power. (Some of these arguments have been advanced more recently by Mark Leonard in his very interesting and quite splendid book Why Europe Will Run the 21st Century.)

I wouldn’t endorse any of these claims. Europe, at the moment, does not possess a single model of society; and to the extent that it does, that model of society is neither more nor less humane than that of the United States. More specifically, there are aspects of Europe that are more humane -- it does not, for instance, rely upon mass incarceration as a solution to its social problems. And there are aspects of the United States that are more humane—it is generally more open and accommodating to immigrants than Europe, for instance. Efforts to construct a European identity on the basis of differences with the United States -- a proto-European nationalism, as it were -— have all the drawbacks of every type of identity politics. It was disappointing to see Jacques Derrida and Jϋrgen Habermas (in their joint letter) go in for this sort of drivel.

Europe currently contains a variety of different models of welfare capitalism -- “Liberal,” “Scandinavian,” “Continental,” call them what you will. Europeans disagree among themselves about the merits of these different models. That disagreement cropped up (for largely unwarranted reasons) in the French referendum and led some people to vote against the Constitutional Treaty. Europeans have yet to work out which of these models they want to embrace and how much intra-European variety they will permit. In my view, for what it’s worth, this disagreement is best played out at the parliamentary level -- both national and European -- and not cemented into place in a Constitutional Treaty.

The claim that Europe is uniquely qualified to run the next century is also unpersuasive. Europe, if it continues on its present path, will be uniquely well-qualified for nothing but global irrelevance: economically moribund; demographically geriatric; and internationally impotent. One of the gravest threats to the future of Europe comes from the misguided notion that it can prosper as a non-military “civilian power.” To rely, as Reid, Rifkin and others suggest, on “soft-power,” would turn Europe into a superannuated version of Liechtenstein.


David Glenn (Moderator):
    We're just about halfway through our hour. Please keep those questions coming. . .


Question from Wes Teter:
    Sitting in Brussels at the moment and having worked in the European Commission, I find it sad that no one speaks about the fact that previous agreements and successes among the member states are not undone simply because a constitution is not ratified. Further, Europe is unified politically, but chooses not to go as far as the single superstate. I agree that the project has not yet reached the public fully. How can the idea of Europe better reach its citizens do you think? How can the idea of Europe better reach the U.S.?

Glyn Morgan:
    I'm less sanguine than you about the claim that "Europe is unified politically." I fear that the threads holding it together have now become rather frayed. As for the claim "the project has not yet reached the public fully" -- I'm not so sure that "reaching" is the problem. One of the great mistakes of the EU Commission is to believe that "to know us is to love us." It may well be that the more the public knows about the EU, the less the public likes it. The answer is to raise and debate fundamental justificatory questions, not simply to conduct more outreach efforts.


Question from David Glenn:
    In Prospect magazine, Andrew Moravcsik recently argued that this recent constitution-drafting process has been a mistake. Europe already has a perfectly workable constitutional order, he said, and its policies and structure are generally popular.

He wrote: "So it was not the substance of the emerging constitutional settlement that triggered opposition. The objectionable aspect was its form: an idealistic constitution. Since the 1970s, lawyers have regarded the treaty of Rome as a de facto constitution. The new document was an unnecessary public relations exercise based on the seemingly intuitive, but in fact peculiar, notion that democratisation and the European ideal could legitimate the EU."

What do you think of that line of argument?

Glyn Morgan:
    Complete rubbish. Europe was hardly in a very healthy state prior to the decision to embark upon the Convention and the Constitutional Treaty. It had recently experienced a number of embarrassing referendum defeats; Europe's economy was (and still is) moribund; transatlantic relations were at a postwar low; Europe's existing institutional architecture was ill-suited to handling 10 new members; and Europe's budget was--and still is--a disgrace. The recent national referendums also make it abundantly clear that when given the chance many Europeans attacked the very substance of the EU itself. If this is a model of stability and legitimacy, I would like to know what my good friend would consider a constitutional crisis.


Question from David Glenn:
    Why do you believe that Euroskeptics, too, need to use a democratic standard of justification when defending their proposals? Can't they plausibly argue that pro-integration advocates should carry a higher burden of proof? ("We're just defending the status quo. It's the fools in Brussels who are trying to change things.")

Glyn Morgan:
    I spend a lot of time in the book discussing the arguments of Eurosceptics -- British Eurosceptics, in particular. I found, to my surprise, that far and away the most cogent statement of the Eurosceptic position is to be found in the writings and speeches of Enoch Powell -- a highly controversial figure in the postwar history of British parliamentary politics. Contemporary Eurosceptics tend to rehash at a less sophisticated level arguments that Powell had made in the 1970s.

I think Eurosceptics need to use a democratic standard of justification, because their proposals amount to a fundamental transformation of the existing institutional status quo. Not happy with the current intergovernmental EU -- still less happy with the very minor changes envisaged in the Constitutional Treaty -- many British Eurosceptics seek either the withdrawal of Britain from the Union or the transformation of the Union into a free trade zone. These are far-reaching changes. They need to satisfy the same democratic standard of justification that applies to arguments for a single unitary sovereign Europe or to a multi-level post-sovereign Europe.


Question from Daniele Archibugi, CNR, Rome, Italy:
    If the demoi of two founding countries of the EU have voted against the Constitution, isn't it the proof that the functionalist approach of Jean Monnet is a more viable strategy than the Federalist project of Altiero Spinelli?

Glyn Morgan:
    Much depends here on what you mean by "a viable strategy." I think the Monnet approach, which worked quite well in Europe's formative stages, is now completely finished. Any further steps along the road of European integration will now have to engage more directly with ordinary citizens. That's why I think the question of justification is so central. I think Europe, if it is to go any further, needs to adopy something akin to the Irish National Forums, which were set up after the Irish rejected the Treaty of Nice.


Question from David Glenn:
    How do you reply to Richard Sweeney's argument that Europe does not face any serious vulnerabilities, and therefore has no need of a unitary military and security policy?

Glyn Morgan:
    I find this argument unpersuasive for at least three reasons. One, it rests upon a conception of security that is unappealing; two, it fails to comprehend the threats that Europe now confronts; and three, it is naïve about the military capabilities of highly decentralized, multi-centered polities.

Let me say something briefly about just the first of those three points. It is important to recognize that people disagree about the nature of security as a value. Some people certainly do think of security in terms of the absence of immediate current military threats. If that’s your conception of security, then Professor Sweeney’s probably right to say that Europe does not face any serious vulnerabilities. But that’s not my conception of “security.” And I would hope that that’s not the conception of security adopted by Europe’s political leaders. My argument works with a more expansive conception of security, which includes “adequate safeguards” against “serious harms,” even if they are currently of quite a “low probability.” The book spends quite a lot of time defining and defending “adequate safeguards,” “serious harms,” and so forth.


Question from Rich Byrne, Chronicle of Higher Education:
    If Europe decided to pursue a more federal state, what immediate or near-term steps should the Union propose to ease the way? A mandatory euro? Creation of a standing multi-national army?

Glyn Morgan:
    Let me be clear in saying that I do not think that Europe is likely any time soon to become a more federal state. The twin referendum defeats in France and the Netherlands bring to as close, in my view, a familiar process of integration. This process often involved -- as in the case of the Euro -- adopting a measure for one ostensible reason (economic) while expecting that it would have an additional (political) consequence.

The near-term steps I would be in favor of adopting all involve engaging the citizenry in a debate about the desirability of European political integration.


Question from David Glenn:
    Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution has argued that the current EU crisis will almost certainly lead to a slowdown in the EU's expansion plans -- and that that, in turn, will almost certainly slow down the process of political reform in the countries on the EU's periphery.

He wrote: "Enlargement has proven to be the most successful strategy of regime change ever devised. While NATO enlargement proved important, for it provided security to countries living in the Soviet and Russian shadow, EU enlargement was absolutely crucial because it provided the basis for solidifying political freedom and enhancing economic prosperity in countries that had known little of either."

What do you think of that line of argument?

Glyn Morgan:
    I think that this is absolutely right. I've long been an advocate of European Enlargement -- including the admission of Turkey and the Ukraine. Ivo Daalder is absolutely right to worry about the consequences of the referendum defeats on political reform in places like Romania and Bulgaria. Hopefully, Europeans will come to their senses and re-commit themselves to European Enlargement. Having said that, I think it is important to recognize that European Enlargement is likely to generate far-reaching social and economic changes throughout Europe. We are likely to see a lot more mobility of people, industry, and financial capital than many people will like.


Question from Russell Muirhead, Harvard University:
    You put much stress on security and self-defense. But are the humanitarian ideals so many Europeans endorse served by the sort of superstate and common military policy you advocate?

Glyn Morgan:
    Yes. You are right to say that I have a security-based justification for European political integration. But I don't think that Europe needs to become more centralized and military potent merely for reasons of self-defense. Europe in its present form is incapable of projecting significant power abroad. That means that it is utterly incapable of autonomously intervening in any major humanitarian catastrophes. Europe has to depend on the United States. It makes little sense for a continent-load of people, more or less the economic equals of Americans, to be this dependent.


Question from David Glenn:
    What do you see as the weaknesses of political theorists' celebrations of a flexible and "postsovereign" political order in Europe? (In a 1999 book, for example, Joseph Weiler of NYU Law School argued that the EU has transcended traditional forms of sovereignty and federalism because its members accept EU discipline "as an autonomous voluntary act; endlessly renewed on each occasion of subordination, in the discrete areas governed by Europe, which is the aggregate expression of other wills, other political identities, other political communities.")

Glyn Morgan:
    The book sets up the debate over the future of Europe as a debate between three groups: Eurosceptics (who favor a Europe of independent nation-states); Post-sovereignists (who favor either the current intergovernmental EU or a more disaggregated multi-level post-sovereign polity); and European Sovereignists (who favor a unitary European Sovereign state). I chose, for reasons spelled out in the book, to steer clear of the term “Federalist,” which means very different things to different people and in different countries.

I came to spend quite a lot of time on the post-sovereignist position, if only because it is extremely fashionable amongst contemporary legal and political theorists. Post-sovereignists like to tell us that sovereignty -- both internal and external -- is now obsolete. The age of the sovereign state is now over and done with. The great difficulty with this line of argument is that no one seems to have informed the United States government of this fact. The US is a jealous guardian of its sovereignty. This is not an invention of the Bush administration. The Clinton administration was exactly the same. When the most powerful entity in the international system is a sovereign state, then it makes no sense to talk about the death of sovereignty. If post-sovereignists wish to attack sovereignty, they must conduct the argument in normative terms. Here their arguments become altogether much weaker. I think post-sovereignists remain vulnerable to a security-based challenge. If we care about security as non-dependence, then it is not a good idea to adopt a form of governance -- as post-sovereignists would have us do -- that is incapable of balancing the power of the dominant entity in the international system. The post-sovereignist vision of the EU would contribute to the disappearance of Europe as an historical actor.


Question from David Glenn:
    Would you be willing to offer any predictions about the future of agricultural subsidies in Europe?

Glyn Morgan:
    I think Tony Blair, even if he has recently lost a battle on this front, will win the war. It makes very little sense to spend such a large percentage of the budget on agriculture. Reason , I expect, will ultimately prevail over current Franco-German intransigence.


Question from David Glenn:
    In the recent volume Democracy and Federalism in the European Union and the United States: Exploring Post-National Governance, Robert Dahl argues that a Europe-wide democracy is unlikely, no matter what sort of "federal" arrangements are used. Europe's population, he argues, is probably too large and too diverse to sustain pan-European democratic structures.

What do you think of that line of argument?

Glyn Morgan:
    I don't see any link between the geographical size or scale of a state and its capacity for democratic institutions. I do, however, think that a common language is necessary. That minimal form of shared culture is absolutely indispensable particularly in the advanced industrial democracy that Europe hopes to become. True, there are some multinational exceptions to this rule -- Belgium, Canada, and India, for instance. But Belgium and Canada are forever on the verge of falling apart; and India is not (yet) an advanced industrial society. If Europe is to become politically unified, it needs a common language. I fully expect most Europeans to speak English (plus one other language) within fifty years.


Question from David Glenn:
    Could nationalism ever operate on a pan-European level?

Glyn Morgan:
    I spend a lot of time in the book on nationalism, for the simple reason that nationalism forms the ideological core of the Eurosceptic hostility to Europe. One of the conclusions I have drawn about nationalism is that this is a noun that always needs a qualifying adjective -- e.g., ethnic nationalism, liberal nationalism, xenophobic nationalism etc. I do some work in the book reconstructing the historical genealogy of nationalism. I’ve always found it perplexing that the great modern sociological theories of nationalism -- that of Ernest Gellner, in particular -- have had so very little contact with the history of political thought. Thus Gellner defines nationalism as a principle of political legitimacy -- indeed the modern principle of political legitimacy. But neither he nor his students have had much to say about how this principle of political legitimacy came to either displace or coexist with earlier principles of political legitimacy. Figuring out this puzzle about nationalism took me (via the work of Istvan Hont) back to the writings of Thomas Hobbes, Abbe Sieyes and some of the intellectual founders of the modern nation-state. Hobbes is a particularly important thinker for me, because he envisages a sovereign state, whose members lack any shared cultural or ethnic characteristics. Indeed for Hobbes, the demise of the sovereign state leaves nothing but individuals. It’s interesting to ask why Hobbes’s conception of the state -- a state without a culturally or ethnically defined nation -- was an historical nonstarter. Why, in other words, did the modern state require forms of horizontal and vertical solidarity—i.e. solidarity between citizens and their political institutions and solidarity between citizens themselves -- grounded in and sustained by common cultural and/or ethnic characteristics?

Much though I’d like to think that a modern state could survive in the absence of these solidarities grounded in at least some of these characteristics, I’m prepared to concede that no modern state could flourish in their absence. Ideally, these characteristics ought to be as nonexclusive as possible -- a common language, for instance. A European State thus needs, if it is to flourish, a common language. In all probability that language will be English -- which is already the de facto lingua franca of Europe as it is. Is this thin “nationalism” -- if it even counts as such -- feasible on a pan-European level? Sure. Why not? I don’t think that national identities are fixed forever in place. Of course many ethnic and traditional nationalists would disagree. But their arguments -- to the extent that they have any -- are not consistent with what I’ve termed a democratic theory of justification.

One final point on this topic: I think it is especially important to avoid efforts to identify a much thicker pan-European nationalism grounded in a set of unifying values alleged to distinguish “Europe” from “America.” That’s the trouble, I think, with the line of argument taken by Derrida and Habermas in that letter I mentioned earlier.


Glyn Morgan:
    Thanks everyone for the questions. They were all very challenging. Special thanks to David Glenn- a real gent and a scholar. I now need a beer.


David Glenn (Moderator):
    Thanks again for taking time to be here on a grim day.