Early to College and Early to Rise?
Thursday, March 10, at 1 p.m., U.S. Eastern time
About 50 early-college high schools, most of them located on a college campus, have opened across the country. The programs, which draw mostly black and Hispanic students from public secondary schools, are designed to keep students from dropping out and to give them more personal attention than they would receive at a traditional high school.
The programs are expected to work in a way that is almost counterintuitive: They take students who may be below grade level and try to slingshot them ahead with a combination of extra support and challenging work. And, backed by substantial grants from major philanthropic organizations, the programs are said to help colleges draw disadvantaged students who will not necessarily need heavy remedial courses when they enroll.
Like many philanthropic experiments, however, the ventures are exercises in uncertainty. Most of the schools are too new to have a measurable record of success, and preliminary assessments of the students' progress are mixed.
Based on those initial impressions, do the programs work, or do they seem likely to help in the long run? Is it correct to view them as part of a college's mission? Should more colleges start them?
» The Early-College Experiment (3/11/2005)
Thomas J. Lasley II is dean of the School of Education and Allied Professions at the University of Dayton, a Roman Catholic institution in Ohio that helped start an early-college program a few years ago. Mr. Lasley helped hire the school's teachers and design its curriculum.
Eric Hoover (Moderator):
The Chronicle welcomes Thomas J. Lasley II, dean of the School of Education and Allied Professions at the University of Dayton. Dr. Lasley, thanks for your time. We will now take questions.
Question from Barbara Taylor, accreditation agency:
How well do higher education institutions and the K-12 sector communicate? There is a common, if only general understanding of what a high school graduate knows and can do. Does this competence level meet the expectations of the first college year? Why? or Why not?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
One of the ways that we assess the competence of the students is through Accu-Placer testing. We test each student to determine his or her eligibility to take a particular class at the college level. Once we have placed the student in a class and can see whether that student is successful, we can then make a decision on what other courses should be taken. Some of our students have now had up to 15 hours of college coursework. We hope that we're going to get even better at matching students with college courses as we gain experience. In essence, thus far the communication process has been very positive.
Question from Birdie Newborn, Beach College:
What is the typical demographic profile of students who enroll?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Approximately 80% of our students are African American and about 70% are on free/reduced lunch. We do have more females than males and I quite frankly cannot give you the exact percentage breakdown. I can tell you that the demographics for our students mirror the demographics for the other Dayton public high schools. The students self select whether to come to the high school, but it is not a selective student population.
Question from Sara Granberg-Rademacker, MN State U:
Given such a high proportion of students of color, how many faculty of color does the school employ? How do you think this impacts the students?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We have a very significant group of African American and Hispanic teachers at DECA. We worked hard to identify and recruit persons of color to work with the young people. I cannot give you the exact percentage, but I can tell you that we have worked intentionally to identify teachers who understand the backgrounds of the young people. Some of the teachers also come from Appalachian backgrounds because a lot of our students are Appalachian. As you know, the dropout rates are even higher than they are for African American students.
Question from Sara Granberg-Rademacker, MN State U:
Dean Lasley, you mentioned how traditional classrooms lead these students to not being challenged. What about your early college program makes these students want to learn?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We are still not where we need to be on this. Our biggest challenge has been the design and implementation of the curriculum. We have a lot of different people working on the problem. We are trying to design units of study that are anchored to problems the students understand. One of our units included science, language arts, mathematics, and social studies and focused on the forensics of a crime scene. We actually set up the crime scene with the help of the Police Department and then the students did a series of lessons in the different disciplinary areas associated with the defined crime. Many of our academic lessons are anchored in this way and we are trying to develop even more for next year.
Question from Jennifer , U of Illinois-Urbana-champaign:
As a speech language pathologist, much of the literature that discusses adolescent language emphasizes the importance of communication skills. There appears to be a gap however, between the communication skills and styles of high-risk African American adolescents and their main stream teachers. This gap may result in frequent miscommunication and could be linked to later difficulty in participating in classroom discourse with peers and professors in higher education. Are differences in communication/discourse skills and styles addressed in these programs? If so, how?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
You raise a very good issue, but it has not been a big problem for us. We have been very careful about the teachers we hired and the connectedness they have with the culture of the students. We visit every single student's home and we make sure that the teachers are comfortable interacting with students who come from diverse and often quite difficult home environments. Interestingly, the bigger problem has been the way in which the students interact with one another. They are so used to resolving differences by fighting or yelling that we have had to spend lots of time with conflict resolution strategies to give them the skills necessary to be successful in life. Hence, our biggest issues are not teacher to student, but student to student.
Question from Gerald Edmonds, Director, Syracuse University Project Advance & President, National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships:
(1) What type of professional development activities are conducted for the high school teachers involved in the program and/or the college faculty who are involved in the instruction of the students?
(2) Do the students receive college credit for the courses they enroll in?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
First, the students do receive college for the courses in which they enroll. Those courses are transferable to any institution, including the University of Dayton. We are now trying to create articulation agreements so that the courses will count toward general education requirements, regardless of the institution.
Second, our professional development activities have focused heavily on developing a personalized curriculum for the students. We spend a lot of time talking about what the students need and what types of academic experiences need to be in place. We have a professional development session this afternoon in which we are working at IGE and why it failed and how that type of personalized approach can be refined to ensure that we do not suffer a similar fate. We are trying to design something very different and that requires a very different kind of professional development.
Question from Former teacher:
I'm a former high school teacher. Now I work in a community college that has an early college program. It's great in that the students get to see what college life is like and use some of the facilities. But I have concerns that it reduces the value of a college education. That all one has to do is sit down, listen to a college professor and that's all to earning a college degree. Higher education is not something to be suffered through to get done as soon as possible. College should build on the full high school experience. That's the difference between having a college degree and a college education.
Thomas J. Lasley II:
I couldn't agree more. We don't want the students to just deal with seat time, but rather we want them to see that learning can and should be an enriching and personally rewarding experience. Educators should not be afraid to make mistakes in trying to design new programs. We know what doesn't work and now all of us need to experiment to see if we can find some things that do work. We are both succeeding and failing in that regard. My hope is that students down the road benefit from our experimentation, and I think they will.
Question from John Geiger, Educational Consultant:
Bill Gates has been calling for a radical overhaul of America's high schools. To what extent are his ideas influencing the ideas that guide the Dayton Academy?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Hello, John.
We are funded by some of the Gates money and Bill and Melinda Gates identified DECA as one of its five innovative high schools in the United States. We have embraced some of the Gates concepts such as the use of small learning communities and we are working with some of the Gates consultants to share what we are doing (as successes and as failures) with other high schools that are just beginning to operate. The Gates initiative was an important impetus for our beginning and it was instrumental in helping us experiment with some new ways of educating urban young people.
Question from Gwen Ebert, UW Madison, engineering college:
Our Engineering Summer Program (over 30 years old) does work, especially as a recruitment tool. Students tend to be more confident when they approach to rigorous engineering curriculum later. 40% of our participants enroll at our own instituion, and in the last four years, 30% in the engineering college. All participants attend college.
I notice that the students we attract are likely to be successful in college, with or without the program. The program simply assists these students to tune up their skills for a more challenging curriculum. In this case, it really serves as a recuitment program for the STEM fields.
In a given summer, 1-3 of the students may be truly academically disadvantaged. In those few cases, the students do go on to attend junior colleges or other instituions. We tend to recruit these students as an outreach effort, since our goal is recruitment.
Is it fair to say that high-school programs designed for science/math preparation serve more as pipeline recruiment program and less as an outreach effort that would truly benefit disadvantaged students?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Interesting. Sounds like you are doing some good things. We do hope that eventually DECA serves as a pipeline for some very good students who decide to matriculate at the University of Dayton. This started out as an outreach effort. The Dayton schools are the weakest in the state of Ohio (or at least one of the weakest) and we felt we had a social obligation to try to do something, especially since the school district and the University are contiguous. So, this started out as an effort to reach out to the community, but if we are successful, it will be a program that recruits urban young people into college programs at the University of Dayton and elsewhere. We hope to create a consortium of institutions that work with DECA students and to have articulated agreements with each of those institutions that helps our students pursue studies there. We are doing that in part because of the cost associated with UD. We want students to have options, not just expensive options.
Question from Mark P., fundraiser:
My institution has seen great success from such a program because the target population are those students that "nobody else wants," according to the program's coordinators, which means those students who perform below a certain level. Should such programs exclude students who, though from disadvantaged backgrounds (socioeconomic, ethnic, or otherwise) are academically skilled? Or should they include all students, regardless of academic performance, whose backgrounds dictate they need some extra guideance? What is the best way to identify target cohorts if the intended result is to help students with certain non-academic disadvantages?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Mark, our experience is that you need all the different types of students. We probably admitted too many weak students our first year and it mitigated our capacity to create a strong academic program. This past year we admitted a stronger group of students and especially a few high end students and they are helping us create the kind of learning culture we want...and as a result, they are bringing along some of the weaker students. We also have a lot of very young and new teachers and that probably has hurt us a little bit. We should have hired a few more teachers with experience. I think it would have helped us deal with some of the more complex learning problems. We hired new teachers because we wanted people who could think outside the box. Those same people are often less skilled at helping students learn requisite material. So, if I had to do it all over again, I would start with a student population that is a bit more academically skilled but still diverse and I would start with a teacher population that would represent a wide range of professional abilities and experiences.
Question from Mary, Independent Researcher, Indiana:
Do these programs address emotional and cultural challenges that disadvantaged students may be facing? Do these programs have any component that address/help disadvantaged students with transition to college environment?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Good question. The students are required to do internships and those internships put them out into the community. They have to go through an etiquette class to help them learn the requisite skills for meeting and interacting with adults in professional settings. If you come to our school, the principal will intentionally introduce you to some of the students and we expect the students to be able to talk about what they are learning and what they want to do with their lives. A lot of these students are just not used to interacting with adults, and we have to teach them how to do so, and we do try to do that.
Question from Mary Forbes, Bluegrass Community College:
We are convening an action team to design an early college at our campus. One of the issues raised is how can this EC be sustained without substantial funding from another source - especially considering that the host college would typically not charge tuition?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
I'm not sure it can be done without funding from another source. Funding has been a major problem for us. The good thing is that people in our community see the need and many have contributed resources to help us get started. We have a number of grant applications out and we are hoping to create enough success so that we can sustain funding for experimental programs until we can find out what really works. Once we know what really works, we can then decide what to cut or what to fight for in terms of budgetary dollars from the school district. Remember, over 50% of most urban students drop out of school, and when they drop out, the district loses money. If we keep the kids in school, the district keeps the money, and that is part of what we are hoping for as we design our programs. The bottom line is that to get this started, you will likely need some external dollars...perhaps even lots of them.
Comment from Michele Williams, SECME, Early College H.S. Intermediary:
In response to the question regarding Math/Science high schools, SECME's model serves both purposes--as a pipeline for industry, as well as a mechanism to recruit and engage underserved student populations.
Question from Tobi Swartz, Furman University:
What services do you provide beyond the academic, classroom experiences. For example, do you have guidance services, career exploration, etc?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We have a number of different services. We have academic tutorial services that operate for the students in areas such as writing. We have an internship coordinator who designs all the internship experience and runs the etiquette class for our students before they go out in the field. We have a college placement officer who works with all the students to get them tested and placed into the right college classes. We have a number of people who help us with testing and assessment, and we even have a woman who coordinates our visitors who want to work at the school or interact with the students. We are just getting ready to design our own wellness program for the students that would be our version of physical education.
Question from Susan Sears, retired faculty member from The Ohio State University:
What roles do helping professionals such as school counselors, school psychologists, and school nurses play in the early college high schools?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Susan, good to hear from you. The counselor that we have works primarily to get the students placed in the appropriate college classes. She also works with students on some of the behavioral issues. We do not have a school psychologist as such, but we have been using our University services for students who have problems that require some professional attention. We also created our own mediation program. That program is intended to help the students understand how to deal with and work through conflict. One of our biggest problems has been helping the students understand how to manage and deal with their feelings. We do have a school nurse, but she is not full time. Our biggest needs have been in the school counseling and school psychology areas. These people are absolutely critical to the success of the early college. I might add that we visit every student's home as part of our program as a way of making sure we know all the personal and social issues.
Question from John Butzow, Indiana University of Pennsylvania:
Is there a good model for Early College in High School for rural areas?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Not that I know of...you need to create one. We are all pioneers here and we need people who are trying things in different settings and then sharing what they learn with the rest of us. Good luck.
Question from Jennifer Lerner, AYPF:
In an era that is concerned with evaluation and ata, are you collecting information on your students, before enrollment, during enrollment, and after enrollment? If so, what information?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We are collecting data on the students...perhaps too much data. We are pre and post testing students to collect value-added data using NWEA's MAP testing. That program is one that delivers tests on the internet and matches the tests to the academic standards of a state. We are also collecting a lot of personal data on the students and we visit all the students' homes prior to the beginning of the school year. We have no grades or grade levels, but we have what we call Gateways...six of them. If you send me an e-mail, I will send you what the Gateways entail. The students are evaluated on their performance relative to the Gateways and we track their academic growth based on the state academic content standards and the specific indicators that we have outlined for the students to learn. It's a bit complicated, and we're still working out problems, but I think it's going to work. We are in a high stakes testing state, so people will know pretty quickly whether we are succeeding or failing. For the sake of the students, I hope we succeed.
Question from Mary Kinney Owensboro Community College:
What are the six gateways to earning the high-school diploma? And the requirements of each gateway?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Mary, if you send me an e-mail at thomas.lasley@notes.udayton.edu I will send you a copy of Gateways.
Comment from Richard Bretz, Youngstown State University:
The new president at IUP helped establish the Youngstown Early College; therefore, he should be able to serve as a resource or put you in touch with those that can.
Question from Karen Francis, U. of Wyoming:
How are the students identified for the programs? Are the parents included in the process and, if so, what extent is their involvement?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
The parents and students are interviewed prior to the students' admission. Outlined below are the requirements for admission:
Student is no older than 15;
Student has been promoted/assigned to high school and is a first year 9th grade student;
Minimum reading proficiency is at the 6th grade level as evidenced by standardized test results;
Student must be a resident within the Dayton Public School district;
Student demonstrates a passion and interest for learning;
Student is drug free.
Question from Alford H. Ottley, University of the District of Columbia:
We have an Early College Program with a Public Charter School. We do not have the authority to waive tuition. How do other Early College Programs handle college tuition?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We are a private university and have a bit more flexibility. At the current time, we have secured some scholarship dollars that we are using to cover the tuition for the students at the University of Dayton. We have approximately 45 students at Sinclair Community College, and it is public. The president of that community college was able to secure scholarship funds and is using those to cover the tuition of students who attend Sinclair. So, thus far we are using scholarship dollars. We have now recommended to the state legislature for funding early colleges and we hope to have that formula in place by next year. That formula includes some tuition dollars.
Question from Jean-Didier Gaina, U.S. Office of Postsecondary Education:
Does the described program include the students preparing and taking the SAT or ACT tests?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We hope that our students will be taking the SAT or ACT. As I type this, our students are taking the Ohio Graduation Test, which is a high stakes test for Ohio high school sophomores. As our students successfully complete that test, they will then begin to prepare for tests such as the SAT or ACT. We tell the students that the high stakes tests are really minimum performance indicators. We want to see them having success on tests such as the ACT or SAT. We expect our students to take one or both of those tests when they get to that point.
Question from Richard Thompson, University of North Carolina:
What have been the most significant barriers to implementation of the program?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Two big barriers. First, absolutely make sure you have the right people in place, and especially the right teachers. Without the right teachers and adults working with the young people, no amount of money makes a difference. Second, you need to have institutions and persons within those institutions who are willing to experiment when things don't go well. We have confronted a boatload of problems and so far our success has been because people have tried to figure out how to solve those problems even when institutional barriers existed.
Question from Lauren Hall, charter school in Massachusetts:
What I know about ECH schools leads me to conclude that they are much like many other alternative schools, including charter schools, and would benefit from the experiences of teachers, like me, who have been dealing with the same challenges their teachers are now facing. What is being done to open lines of communication between ECH schools and other alternative schools in this country?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
Lauren, we are a public high school and not a charter school. Dayton has a huge number of charter schools and we work closely with them, especially in trying to attract some of the students to come back into the public system...we are a public school. We have also been working with some of the other individuals who have a strong interest in playing with new models of education. As an example, the Fordham Foundation has been assisting us with the assessment of our students. As you may know, Fordham is a strong advocate of choice and charters. We try to communicate with lots of people about the options and the alternatives, and we have had a lot of success so far in creating positive lines of communication.
Question from R.J.Multari, University at Buffalo School of Architecture and Planning:
I'm working on an ethonographic project, interviewing 8-10 males enrolled in an early college program. Any suggestions for possible questions to ask the students that may not yet been asked of this population?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We have a full-time researcher who can probably help you with what you are interested in studying. She came to us from Harvard. Please contact her directly at karen.foster@notes.udayton.edu
Question from Donna Chandler, Buncombe County Early College, NC:
We are currently in the process of beginning an early college that will open this fall. We have had far more interest in the school than we have spaces available. Can you tell me if the demand for admission to your school is great, and if so, how do you turn away deserving students?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We had the same problem. We have more demand than we have spaces. I can tell you that an ECH is right for some students, and not right for others. The interview process has helped us figure out which students fit and which do not. We interview every student and parent and we visit their homes, especially after they are admitted. We did a better job this past year of admitting the right group of students than we did the first year. If you are going to make a mistake, make a mistake by admitting fewer students than you want...starting these schools is hard and the last thing you need are students at the school who should not be there.
Question from ron wolk, Big Picture Company in Providence:
Since some of these early college schools have been around since 1966, is there any research indicating how their students have fared?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
I don't know of any research of that type. I can tell you that even though the Bard College has been around for quite a while, it is quite different than ours. The problem is that all the models are so different that it makes it difficult to generalize. Now that a lot of people have these in place, some of what you are interested in should surface.
Comment from Mollie Edson, Central Washington University:
Regarding John Butzow's question about a model for rural programs:
Here in Central Washington State we have been developing a rural program in which high school instructors become adjunct university faculty members and offer college courses in the high school. We have found that our students have a high rate of college attendance after participating in our program. We would be happy to share any information about our program.
Question from L.E.W., former teacher:
I applaud your approach to teaching and learning. Personalized learning, meaningful assessment, close and respectful relationships between and among students and teachers. My concern is that students who have finally been convinced by such an approach that school is not a bore and a burden will be disappointed by the style of many college professors who are unapproachable and rely heavily on lectures to "teach." How have your students reacted to such professors in the college courses they've been taking?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We are a bit careful about which college classes they go in. So far the students have responded very positively and they really like the colleges at UD and at Sinclair. Quite frankly, the students have a real sense of pride about being in the college class and I don't think the style of the professor makes that much difference as long as the professor is reasonably focused on the students and clear in how he or she teaches.
Question from Gerald Edmonds, Syracuse Unversity:
Is there a concern that once outside funds are limited that these types of programs will fail? What steps are you taking to ensure that these types of programs are self-funding?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We have gone to the state of Ohio with a specific funding formula for early colleges. So far, we are in the proposed state budget. We had secure grant dollars last year and this year because the funds we needed exceeded the dollars that were available for the district. So, we hope that the state funds will help us deal with the long-term problem.
Question from Kim, UNLV:
Are early-college programs good recruitment tools for a university? If students attend an early college program, are they more likely to attend that university in the future?
Thomas J. Lasley II:
We don't know the answer to that question yet, but we do hope that some of these students attend UD. We are trying to set up a permanent scholarship program for DECA students. We even have some people in the community who are looking at the possibility of sponsoring a college scholarship for one of the students. We do believe that once a student has taken 20 or 30 hours of courswork at UD (or even more) that he or she will then attend our fine university. That is the hope, at least.
Eric Hoover (Moderator):
That's all the time we have. Thanks to everyone who submitted questions to today's chat. And thank you, Dr. Lasley.
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