The Chronicle of Higher Education: Colloquy

This discussion is closed. This is a transcript.

Friends in high places

Author: Colloquy Moderator
Date: 01-09-03 17:22

Growing numbers of children in the United States are educated at home, and more and more of them are enrolling in college. Some advocates for these students and their families believe that colleges discriminate against home-schooled applicants -- by asking them to take tests showing high-school-diploma equivalency, for example -- and that federal regulations should be changed to encourage better treatment of such applicants. Some college officials, however, argue that this push ignores the legitimate need for colleges to try to evaluate applicants who do not have typical transcripts or high-school experiences. The Bush administration appears to be sympathetic to the concerns of home-schooled students, leaving some educators worried. Should Congress change federal financial-aid regulations to make it easier for home-schooled students to enroll in college? Read more ...

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Stephannie White, Graduate Student, ASU, NC system
Date: 01-09-03 21:50

This is an interesting article, one that I am glad I have read. I am a graduate student in Human Development and Psychological Counseling, Student Development track. I am also a home schooling parent. I strongly value education and was raised in a family with a long line of public educators.

My choice to home school my son was prompted by the poor public educational system in this area. As my son progresses through his coursework, each accomplishment must be verified. Each year, he must (as required by NC law) take a standardized test (I prefer to use the Iowa Standard due to its higher quality indicators). This test must be turned in to the state's agency for home schools by June 1st. If this is not done, or my son does not show academic progress, our home school status would be cancelled. We have been home schooling for 3 years now, and my nine year old son, who would be in the third grade, is operating on a 4th or 5th grade level (depending upon subject).

I have been informed, that should I choose to continue to home school my son through the 12th grade, he will be issued a Standard High School Diploma, rather than a College Prep or Vocational high school diploma. This would require that he attend a Community College for one year before being permitted to apply to a four year university. Should I choose to re-enter him into the public system in NC, his previous test scores are not valid for deciding his entry grade level. Of the other families in NC that I know of who have placed their children in the public system, the process seems to be determining the appropriate grade level based on age, then SUBTRACTING one grade level. If I were to place my son back in the public system, he could be put in the second grade. This would cause obvious problems in his social acclamation to the system. So as long as we are in the state of NC, we must continue on the course we have set.

How do I feel about testing and financial aid? Should a school require additional tests, with the expectation of a higher score for admittance, the school should make available scholarships befitting his advanced abilities. As the situation stands, there are no scholarships available for entering freshman who were home schooled. For those with financial burdens, this leaves only the option of loans and grants. If a student has made an average or above score on the ACT or SAT, then additional tests required, specific to the condition of having been home schooled, should also be accompanied by a reward system. This reward system should be made available only to those with a home school background.

While I am sure that some place some where there may be a family that abuses the home school option, from my experience, these children are capable independent learners with motivation and stamina to academically excel. The social deficits that are suspected are these: my son is not bullied on a daily basis; he does not understand the concept of deceit for gain; he is not motivated by commercial pressures (Mom, I just have to have an Xbox version 20 with super turbo boosters, everyone at school has one); nor does he have addictions to television, drugs, alcohol or violence. He has play dates for social interaction which are positive in nature. He has been to summer camp (last year, he went for a month) with no problems. He relates equally well with adults or children (being especially gentle with small children). He is not an atypical home schooled student in my experience. Whatever imagined social/academic problems that administrators fear from these children entering college are ridiculous and derived from ill-informed people. It is an incredible sacrifice that these parents make on behalf of their children. Some do it for religious reasons, some for academic, a few for both, regardless; these parents have taken an interest in the future of their children (and as a domino affect, the future of our country) beyond the socially accepted indifference exhibited by the standard public school parent.

After having sacrificed time, money (home schooling may be just as expensive as some private schools) energy and tremendous amounts of personal freedoms, why should the families' hard work be penalized? The whole point of home school is to provide a superior education to what is available. Usually, people who strive for higher than expected standards of excellence do have college in mind. Personally I feel that this is becoming a politicized issue designed to reinforce the power of the public school system, during a time that it is crumbling under the weight of its own excess and inefficiency. The public school defenders are taking advantage of the budget crisis that many colleges are experiencing with full knowledge that most colleges do not have "backbone."

When a student in the public school system is given a C and passed over with the full knowledge of faculty that the child is not capable, what do colleges do? Should the child be admitted, the college requires that they take remedial courses or have tutors. How many higher education professionals do you (the reader) know who complain of the lower academic abilities exhibited by traditionally educated students today? In Europe, many countries' high school graduates operate on a higher cognitive level than graduates in the US. Should the increasing numbers of home schools be an indicator of the public education system? Well, someone must feel threatened if home schools have become targets of discrimination and recriminations for having striven for better educations through legally accepted options. Or is this an example of a complex political situation in which republicans are being attacked for defending and protecting the constitutional rights of citizens' to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? If a citizen's expression of these rights take the form of demanding a better standard, and pursuing that higher standard by the legal means available, whom has the right to deny their offspring the right to continue that standard of excellence through a college degree. It would be interesting to me to discover the number of home schooled students who pursue post-graduate studies. With the difficulties colleges have in retention, recruitment, and retaining alumni loyalty, the college that is privileged enough to host these exceptional students should be grateful and express this by allowing them to apply, be accepted, and become part of the campus fabric with full financial support. Thank you for your time and the freedom to express my views.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-10-03 09:27

Home schooling ... now there is an interesting concept.

Basically, children are being home schooled because of religious reasons. Most home-schooled children are being taught by their parents who do not agree with either the methods of public schools, the material or concepts that are being used or both.

I have had a student go through the Radiologic Technology program here at Ivy Tech State College who was home-schooled. She did fine, even when I presented the video series "A Time of Aids" that documents the rise of the HIV epidemic and the circumstances surrounding it. She passed the registry with no problems, made high grades and she was no different than any other student.

I have had disagreements with my local public school system over their methods and attitudes toward the public whom they are charged to serve. If it were not for the availability of a suitable Parochial school, my wife and I may have home school my two youngest children.

Even then, the Parochial school that my children attended had tentacles from the local public school system affecting the teachers and the principal and I got no satisfaction until I talked to the Priest in charge of the school.

In short, there is absolutely no reason to have a two-tiered admission system that discriminates against home-schooled individuals. The admission system should have admissions testing, but the home-schooled should have the same opportunity for a College degree that everyone else has, even if it is a threat to the existence of the public school system as it exists in America today.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: V. V. Raman
Date: 01-10-03 09:45

Should Congress change federal financial-aid regulations to make it easier for home-schooled students to enroll in college?

1. As often happens, politics, vested interests, and knee-jerk reactions dominate, rather than a calm and dispassionate inquiry into the various facets of the issue.

2. Has there been a serious study of WHY parents choose home-schooling? It is a sad commentary on the state of our schools today (no matter who is to blame) that vast numbers of parents send their children to school with some/much trepidation. And many have found it far more effective and safe to educate their children at home.

3. Have the lords of higher education considered formulating criteria for eligibility to college admission? Will such criteria emphasize a piece of paper certified by a system whose products often fall short of the promise? Or, will they call for independent demonstration of the knowledge, background, and intellectual commitment required for higher education?

4. Is it not possible for colleges to devise an entrance exam (like the SAT and the GRE) based on verifiable academic criteria, rather than become nervous about what the Bush administration or anybody else does?

5. Is this a matter which the AAUP should explore or is this the prerogative of college administrators and various lobbyists?

V. V. Raman
10 January, 2003

Re: Friends in high places

Author: V. V. Raman
Date: 01-10-03 12:42

To illustrate Professor Garner's point further, I know of two families, both living in Southern States, one Unitarian and another avowed atheist, both of whom prefer home-schooling for their children because they fear that even in public schools their children would come under the influence of religious fundamentalism.

V. V. Raman

Re: Friends in high places

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-10-03 15:03

Dear Dr. Raman,

I think that the problem with public school systems is their feigned openess to parental input into the educational system that serves the public and in turn their children.

A case in point from my area. In a particular Middle School several years back the book "The Goats" by Brock Cole was required reading.

In the book, which is a typical "coming of age" based novel involving adolescents in their early teens, a young boy and girl in a summer camp are stripped naked and then put on a island together. Graphic descriptions of their young developing bodies are in the book.

They have to sleep together with their bodies against each other to keep warm. When they finally escape the island they steal clothes from a clothes line outside of a house.

There are other aspects of the book that some parents found objectional, but I did not believe it to be "pornographic" as several parents claimed it to be. However, removing it from the school instructional material did not constitute "censorship", either.

There are lots of reasons why any parent, but especially a parent from a strict religous tradition, would not want their 11 - 15 year old children, or those from 6th to 8th grade to read the book.

Well, the English teachers bristled, dug in their feet, the administrators and the teachers union stuck together arm in arm and the book stayed on the required reading list at that particular school.

The parents who opposed this were cast as "religious fundamentalists" and radicals. In a nutshell, the students of the parents who complained about the issue ended up being home schooled.

The teachers saw it (removing the book from instructional material) as a theat to their teaching ability and the parents saw it as an attempt by the school corporation to force a morality system on their childen that was different AND a victory for them. That is a pretty sick attitude, if I may say so.

The whole problem should never have been. The school system and the teachers and administrators should have quietly made acceptable but resonable accomidations.

It seems the attitude of public school systems in general is one of being all knowing and intolerant of the wishes of the public and parents they serve.

In our particular local school corporation the Superintendent has a 6 year contract and the school board is a 4 year elected post that pays $2000.00 a year. School board campaigns easily cost in excess of $8000.00 to conduct.

The liasion between the local teachers union and administrators association assure that none can get elected without their nod. We elect three and then two years later the other four spots are up for election.

On our local seven member school board we have a volunteer high school coach, a retired school teacher, a retired dean of boys from a high school, the cousin of an administrator, (they were raised together) a local attorney, and a car salesman. A clear majority have an obvious past or current connection with the administration in some manner

The bottom line is that if a school board member doesn't "tow the line" and follow the "direction" of the Superintendent, then they fail to get re-elected. He can change his entire board if necessary in the span of 4 years. Again, notice that I said that he had a 6 year contract that was voted in in the middle of the summer when nobody was looking.

I am sure that my area is not unique in America. This is what the average public school system in our country has become....

An Oligarchial mess.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: jgarner
Date: 01-10-03 15:26

Addendum:

The seventh school board member is a retired dentist who has a business that sells farm equipment and tractors.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: V. V. Raman
Date: 01-10-03 15:55

"This is what the average public school system in our country has become.... An Oligarchial mess."

Delete the word "Oligarchial" and this is the sad truth.

We don't seem to have the moral or the intellectual leadership, will, or idea-resources to bring about direly needed radical changes in so many aspects of our society: basic education, social justice, interpersonal decency, enlightened values for the young, etc.

It is amazing how quickly we could organize our armed forces to root out evil, real or imaginary, in so many corners of the word, and how we find the financial resources to increase airport security, get more predator planes, give massive economic aid to many countries, deserving or undeserved.

But when it comes to cleaning up our own backyards, bring decent education to kids in our inner cities, awaken our young to a sense of commitment to society and humanity rather than self-serving pettiness, gender-teasing, distruptive behavior in class, slovenly callousnessness, etc., we seem to be utterly incompetent.

Perhaps it is because every participant in the enterprise imagines that the problems can be solved by, and only by, pumping in more dollars, that unless sex and savagery are glorified in literature and the media, we are old-fashioned, that emphasis on the sacred implies religious bigotry, etc.

It is sad, sad indeed, for, as you rightly say, (This is what the average public school system in our country has become.... a mess.)

Please, someone, tell me, Professor Garner and I are mistaken or exaggerating. I will be very pleased to hear that.

V. V. Raman

Strange Bedfellows

Author: Patrick Jung
Date: 01-10-03 16:18

I read the complete article that accompanies this colloquy, and there are some ironic twists that confirm in my mind that politics makes strange bedfellows.

On the right, the Republicans and other conservatives in Congress seek to make home-schoolers a "protected class," which is something the political left is usually accused of doing.

On the other side, universities, which are usually considered somewhat left-of-center, resent what one administrator labels an "intrusive...role for the government to play" in determining college admissions. Of course, it usually the political right that rails against government intrusiveness.

I have not empirical data, but I think there may be a tendency by universities to discriminate against home-schooled children since they tend to come from evangelical Christian families.

From an academic point of view, I do not really see what colleges and universities are worried about. Sure, a student may lack transcripts, but that is what tests like the ACT and SAT are there for; to provide another set of measurable criteria.

Besides, is a student who has a transcript from an academically failing high school better educated than one with a home school education? I think a strong case can made that the home-schooled child is probably much better prepared.

John Garner's story of the book that was required reading for middle school kids reaffirms my decision to send my children to Catholic schools for their K-12 education. My neighbor has been a public school teacher for almost twenty years now, and she sends her kids to the same Catholic school that my kids attend. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the local urban public school system.

Sensitivity according to the Bush admin

Author: Patricia Schwarz
Date: 01-10-03 19:46

The idea that the Bush administration is sensitive to students has to really look ridiculous in the extreme when you see a student denied financial aid because he or she once got caught with marijuana.

This Drug Free provision of the Higher Education Act is so oppressive and abominable and reminiscent of fascism -- it's amazing to me that academics find so many things to discuss other than that. Back in the sixties people would have resigned over an issue like this.

Home schooling has a proper place in the educational world but there is an actual war going on, we are living in wartime right now.

Back in the sixties this discussion never would have happened until the Drug Free provision was gone.

One can say a lot positive about the changes in academia since the sixties but the ease with which this Drug Free isolation and segregation act whizzed into standard operating procedure and retreated into the background noise in American higher education is not a good sign for the intellectual and political and educational health of the academy.

Back in the sixties there would have been people with the stones to resign over that. And that would have ended it, pure and simple.

Professors today are too worried about their own federal grants to defend students against an abusive government.

So this debate is kind of hypocritical. If there weren't all of this abusive treatment going on it wouldn't be silly but in the context of how abusive the Bush administration really is to students -- this discussion is hypocritical.

It's in a way like talking about whether the parent who beats you up at night will let you go to the mall during the daytime.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Michael Savoie
Date: 01-10-03 22:02

I enjoyed the article and am enjoying the comments. Here's another for the mix.

I know well over a dozen families who have chosen to homeschool their children. In none of these cases was the reason a religious one. In all cases, the overriding concern was the lack of quality education provided by the local public school system, and the lack of adequate oversight of the students.

These parents provide an extremely high quality education to their children. Home schoolers in the Dallas-Fort Worth area routinely score higher on standardized tests then their public school counterparts.

It seems to me that since state-mandated standardized tests are given to all students - public, private, and home schooled (at least here in Texas), we have a common benchmark to evaluate every student. Therefore, there should be no difference in the way any student is treated by an institution of higher education.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: de teodoru
Date: 01-11-03 09:50

That's like asking: should women who were not mugged and raped and beaten on the subway be given one's seat? WE chivalrously give our seat to ladies on the train because theire venous system is more likely to fail when they stand than me. So, we are nice "gentlemen" and give them our seat. To say that not having been beated, raped and mugged, they can stand just fine, is the be ignorant of the premise of politeness.

Similarly, the Govt. would do well to give support to students who can do "college on their own," because regular college's real motto has always been: if you can't get it on your own, you can't get it. So, those who REALLY get it on their own, bypassing the faculty toll on their road to a good education, must be one hell of a good investment for our society, our banks and our nation's IQ...N'est pas?

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Alicia Butcher Ehrhardt
Date: 01-11-03 10:00

It seems to me that if we decide to homeschool our children, it is naive to assume that colleges will take our word for the results, with no independent confirmation. Our children have to perform in the colleges when they get there; the college needs to know they are ready.

I have known this since first grade. In NJ, state supervision is non-existent; a parent can be charged under the banner of 'not providing an equivalent education' if there is gross neglect, and it supposed to be up to the prosecution to prove that. Otherwise, you can do as you please. But there is always accountability in life, and you should plan for it all along: our homeschool group offers yearly standardized testing, and any parent can find out how any child is doing. It isn't perfect, but it's available.

When you present a highschool transcript to a college with all As (as I have done for the son who is applying to college now), it is nice to be able to point out that some of the courses were taken at a local community college where a presumably more objective teacher granted the grade. High test scores on tests they are comfortable with, like SATs, also help. But the colleges should not have higher standards for scores than for their middle 50% of students - possibly just higher standards of proof. However bad a public high school is, it has a track record, and a college can at least have an idea of what product comes from that high school.

Meanwhile, it would also be nice if things like Bloustein scholarships (in NJ, awarded for a combination of grades, test scores, and class rank) were available for us - with proof of performance, of course. That is the American way. Ditto membership in the National Honor Society (which also has scholarships), because I think some of our homeschooled kids are as good as theirs. Many enlightened organizations (National Merit, National Geographic, Chemistry Olympiad, National Science Bowl) have made the leap to considering us: they decide how homeschoolers should prove their capabilities (the important part), and then let us participate on an equal basis - and we do just fine.

Just level the playing field for us, Mr. Bush - we don't need any special favors. And none of us homeschool parents who insist on learning for our children want to have them be let in if they can't do the work and are not prepared properly for college. It will cost us money and effort, and we are not interested in putting our children where they will fail.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Stephannie White
Date: 01-11-03 15:02

Just a note of thanks to Alicia for her comments. The information about the changing atmosphere for corporate scholarships for home schooled children is encouraging!

Re: Friends in high places

Author: M. Newborn
Date: 01-11-03 16:35

John Garner wrote:

Home schooling ... now there is an interesting concept.

Basically, children are being home schooled because of religious reasons. Most home-schooled children are being taught by their parents who do not agree with either the methods of public schools, the material or concepts that are being used or both.

Although anecdotal stories are interesting about why people homeschool, here is the latest data from the US Census.

Better education - 50.8%
Religious reasons - 33%
Better environment - 29.8%
Other reasons - 23%
Object to curriculum - 14.4%
School not challenging - 11.5%
Family reasons - 11%
Child has special needs - 9%
To develop character - 8.5%

* Percentage do not add up to 100 because multiple reasons could be chosen. Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Center for Education Statistics, 2002

http://www.msnbc.com/news/wld/national/brill/ homeschooling_stats.htm

Re: Friends in high places - more about local Public Schools...

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-12-03 01:24

Professor Raman,

Consider it deleted. A poor choice of words...

I just could not thing of another word that could describe this bunch of administrators in the local administrator's association and their "elitism".

The latest news today is that our Superintendent is now being sued by the son of a teacher and former principal.

Read on. Here is a history.

A female principal of a middle school was demoted to the teaching ranks. It seems that she was not in favor with her teaching staff and that she also had a Superintendent's license.

Alledgedly, an obvious case of "wag the dog". ;>)

Now, it seems that someone in the school administration was allegedly having an affair with a female janitor in a grade school. Her boyfriend, husband, significant other or whatever decided to shoot our Superintendent because he alledgedly believed that our Superintendent was the one that she had been with.

Later, the culprit who was having the affair was found by a police search of the computers in the administration building and the adminstrator who was having the affair was fired, after the police finally unravelled the mess.

This particular administrator also held the elected post of Indiana State Senator from our area. He did not get re-elected. He lost in the primary to... you guessed it! A local history teacher who has teacher's union ties. The school corporation has a lot of political clout. Their annual budget is more that it takes to run the city AND county governments. Property taxes are high here. We do, however, have a lot of pretty school buildings...

The culprit who did the shooting allegedly hid behind the Superintendent's house and at the first opportunity shot at him with some high-powered gun while he sat at his kitchen table. Rumor has it that it was a magnum shotgun loaded with a deer slug, but I am still not clear as to what the weapon was.

He missed, (thank God!) and the slug grazed the Superintendent's scalp, went clear through his house and lodged in a tree in front of his house.

Shortly after that attempt on the Superintendent's life the alledged assailant was arrested on drug charges. (That bane of the Wabash Valley..homemade methamphetimine)

While he was in jail (many months later) he made a comment to other inmates that the one who shot at our Superintendent would "never get caught". That is how the police came to finally investigate him and discover the circumstances of the crime, that and an anonymous informant.

Enough background, back to the lawsuit.

The lawsuit is filed against the Superintendent personally and it stems from allegations of comments that he made in trying to get the female principal's son arrested for the attempt on his life.

Somebody even turned my name in during the investigation and I got an interview with the State Police. It seems that a lot of people were interviewed, and mostly they were the ones that the school personnel alledgedly believed to have been a "threat". Yeah, right...my dog is not even scared of me. :>)

I suppose that it was alright though, at least I didn't have anything to hide, but the interview and the "investigation" of the principal's son alledgedly went beyond what was thought to be reasonable.

It was alledged to have been fueled as the result of the Superintendent naming the boy as "his" prime suspect. The Superintendent is alleged to have tried to have the boy fired from his job as a teacher-counselor at a local school for wayward boys.

Well, the school corporation is going to decide at the school board meeting monday night, 1-13-2003, if the taxpayers should provide the legal defense for the civil suit against the Superintendent and pay the judgement if he should lose.

Man, what a mess.

You see, Professor Raman, just when you thought that it could not possibly get worse...

Here it is...a "Terre Haute, IN public education" soap opera...

Oh, Pam, if you are reading this,...be GLAD that you live in California...

Need for transcripts

Author: Patrick Juola
Date: 01-13-03 09:38

I see one very gaping hole in the government's proposal. Do home-schooled students present transcripts to the admissiosn office? There's important information in a transcript that ISN'T in the standardized admissions tests, specifically the courses the student has taken.

At my university, years ago, entering students were "required" to have mathematics through pre-calculus, a certain amount of English, science, etc. From a transcript, that's easy to judge -- the student has a passing grade on Physics II, and therefore has gotten the minimim science requirement. I don't feel comfortable accepting the unsupported word of the parents about the breadth of subjects that have been covered; I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect some sort of independent assessment about whether or not, for instance, this student has learned any foreign languages or sciences, et cetera.

irresponsible parents?

Author: David Foster
Date: 01-13-03 10:53

" 'What's to keep the parent from pushing the kid through high school, not teaching them anything, and then dropping them on society?' asks Perry J. Diehm, associate director of financial aid at MidAmerica Nazarene University in Kansas."

This is an incredible question. *Almost all* parents love their children, and feel a personal stake in their success. *No* public school systems "love" their students, given that institutions are incapable of that emotion, and few public school administrators seem to feel a strong personal stake in their success. So why should *parents* be more likely to "push the kid through...not teaching them anything and then dropping them on society?" than should public schools?

I hope that Diehm was misquoted, or that his comment was tongue-in-cheek. But taken literally, it displays clearly the liberal-bureaucratic worldview. People of this persuasion seem to believe that the actions and decisions of institutions are always superior to those of individuals--especially when the institution in question is universal and uniform in its attributes. It is a worldview that is maintained in the face of all history and logic.

Re: Friends in high places - John

Author: Pam
Date: 01-13-03 12:16

Actually, John, I had been following the story on the news!

What a mess! CA has similar dramas.

Right now, Delaine Eastin (superintendent of all CA) schools has been found guilty of either enabling or co-enabling an illegal activity. Years ago, it become very clear to many at the local level that money that was allocated to immigrant education, adult ed, was being used for more than just that. A woman locally was having all her bills paid, electricity, political activity, food, telephone, computers, transportation all paid from this "education bill" for "minorities". Hermandad Nacional and La Mecha were um, facilitators, of this money.

At any rate, Ms. Eastin's term expires soon and she is going to be hired directly by Marc Tucker's "organization. Marc Tucker and Hillary Clinton wrote the educational "Goals 2000" bills (outcome based education). So, I've no doubt I better keep my eye on my little doggie, too.

But, no murder as yet in this story. But, and I do raise this as a serious point: I consider the misuse in education of children to warrant a "soft" abuse charge.

Why? About 100 "learning disabled" students have been through my home in the past years to learn to read. Schools had labelled these children as "disabled".

In sum, they were taught wrong. Deliberately? I won't even go there. But "special ed" funding is massive -- and comes out of federal coffers. Last I read somewhere, one in every six students has been "categorized" as special ed in one way or another.

-Self-esteem classes, special reading classes, special math classes, behavioral classes, drugs, ritalin, etc.-.

Unions. Just gotta love 'em.

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: JohnGarner
Date: 01-13-03 12:25

Patrick,

Perhaps achivement tests could be used to substitute as admission criteria. Maybe transcripts OR standardized testing could be a good thing.

In some cases "home schooling" is the equivalent and in some it is not. Standardized tests are the only way to know.

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: Pam
Date: 01-13-03 12:30

Good points sir, in re transcripts; and I used to hold your pov.

No more. Koyanisquatsi reigns supreme in some states in re "education". Sleight-of-hand in labelling in order to get funding is the gauntlet everyone is running through.

For example: Currently, some local middle schools are labelling basic arithmetic classes as "algebra". One week, or two lessons in a semester or entire math school year, on simple, basic algebraic formulas is what gets this "educational course" qualified. Etc. But it is primarily an addition, subraction, division, multiplication level course. And of course, it shows up on the transcript as "algebra".

Science in K-6 in many schools is non-existent. Or only taught once a week. Transcripts, once upon a time, had meaning, IME, and IMHO.

What's to do? I don't know. Honestly, I do not know.

Two of my children entered a community college at very young ages; 11 and 12, respectively. They were competent. And succeeded. As I tell any who exclaim over my children's "brilliance"? Sure, they are well educated and bright but not necessarily geniuses.

The horror. My children and I got to witness FIRST-HAND the overwhelming amounts of students with highschool transcripts (many posting "high level courses") who could neither read well nor write cogently. And of course, my children began to despair. With hot tears that generally accompany young to middle teens, their horror at seeing perfectly able older "kids" so poorly educated but "properly" listed as being educated.

I have praise for those still attempting to clarify and remedy the problems in K-12. Things are so messed up; I near speechless on the issue of what to do.

And witnessing teachers at colleges having to accommodate the problems.

After many years rumination, I do blame the 'self-esteem" movement years back which satured and encompassed all California schools. It compromised educational standards under the mantra of "do your own thing, baby!"

Re: Friends in high places - Testing

Author: Pam
Date: 01-13-03 12:43

On the whole, yes, I would have no problems with the testing as a means to acquire federal financial assistance for homeschoolers. However, I would like to see what types of questions will be on the test. I'll explain why.

I did get to review state tests for 4th, 6th and 8th graders years back. Easily 1/2 of the questions concerned matters not related to "education" (certainly as I define it); but had more to do with questioning a students' adherence to the diversity and multi-culti training going on in pub ed classrooms.

And, there were no options for the multi-question or essay student. Furthermore, many of the math questions were "rainforest" -- as in, no wrong answer, no right answer.

My students would have failed this particularly slanted state test. And of course, as a homeschooling parent -- oh gee, let's think of all the ways the district could have gone after me. lol.

There used to be standards in education that did not involve the social science equasion for every subject matter. Are there now?

My children learned about the origins of the Constitution; and a GREAT deal concerning the ensuing Bill of Rights. State's Rights, Civil Rights, Women's rights, etc.

They didn't feel it was the state's business to know whether or not THEY, students, knew (or not) that Jefferson held slaves, and particularly as the one or two Constitutional test questions of their "knowledge".

What's to be tested on this federal test? Feelings? "Diversity" USDA-like stamp on their foreheads?

The laws of Thermodynamics? I'd approve this!

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: Patrick Juola
Date: 01-13-03 13:51

Standardized testing, as currently implemented, is not equivalent to transcripts; it simply doesn't cover enough breadth. The standard SAT/ACT covers math and English, and that's it. This means that to assess a student's knowledge of science, foreign language, history, economics, etc., some additional mechanism will be required.

If the standardized tests existed, and if home-schooling parents were willing to submit their children to a battery of such tests on a routine basis, I think the playing field could be levelled. However, I don't think either of those is likely to occur in the near future -- in fact, that's exactly what parents are complaining about, that their home-schooled children need to take additional tests to demonstrate diploma-level proficiency. But, fundamentally, I'm not willing to take a parent's unsupported word that their child knows physics....

Re: irresponsible parents?

Author: Perry Diehm, MidAmerica Nazarene
Date: 01-13-03 18:02

Mr. Foster:

I appriciate your comments about my.quote in the homeschooling article. It was not a misquote, I did say it in response to a question of what is out there to keep homeschoolers from "pushing the pencil" in order to improve their chances of getting in to a particular university. The point I was making is that there really is nothing to stop parents from pushing their kids through homeschool to get into a good college, besides their conscience. The additional point I was trying to make is that most homeschool families are much more interested in how well their children do than most public schools, especially the ones who are NOT academically gifted. If my child was not academically ready to attend a college, the last thing I'd want to do is send him there.

I am definatly in favor of homeschoolers being treated equally with public and private school graduates. I am NOT in favor special treatment for homeschoolers.

I'm so glad you wrote your note so I could respond.

Perry

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: Joe
Date: 01-14-03 08:00

Metaphorically, I like this:

As Arthur Levine, president of Teachers' College at Columbia University, puts it, "If my daughter had appendicitis but I was worried about hospital mortality rates, what would you think if I said, 'I'll get some books and read up on appendicitis and treat her myself at home.'? You'd think that's ridiculous.

There are many issues going on here from all areas. But one thing I have found, again anecdotally, is that if parents are involved in their children's schooling, supportive of it, they will benefit from whatever environment they are in. I would rather trust someone trained in these matters than myself or wife. But, I would support my children at home, helping them with homework, making sure they do assignments, etc.

Parental and family involvement is critical to the success of any child going through any system. But, I would trust people trained in education more than someone who thinks they can teach everything under the sun. The benefits of the school systems outweigh the costs and disadvantages.

Re: irresponsible parents?

Author: Peg Dolson
Date: 01-14-03 09:17

You are right, David! How many students leave public high school not being able to read? It is far more likely that the public schools will push the kid through high school, not teach them anything, and then drop them on society!!

If the parents wanted to do that, they could just leave the kids in public schools!

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Frank Kile, Accountant III/TAMU System HSC
Date: 01-14-03 09:48

I find it interesting in that one of the items the parents in the Home School movement like to say is their children do better on standarized tests than their counterparts. When Home School parents start complaining about requiring tests for high school equivelency it makes one wonder how much of their statement is factual. Personally have known a couple of people who were Home Schooled and without exception their social skills were very poor and in many cases their basic intellectual ability appeared questionable. I also met a teacher from a local school district in my area and he had said almost without fail when a home schooled child comes into a public or private school they are nearly always at least two grade levels behind the other children.

While there are some poor school districts esepcially in some urban and poorer areas from what I have seen working some with high school students and my church and hearing what their requirements are these children have it much tougher than any of us did twenty to thirty years ago. Also parents in the poorer school systems have to both work to even make ends meet and do not have the time to home school children. In fact it appears that most home schooled children are from upper crust and excellent school districts. For example I know someone who home schools their children in a Texas school district that is probably one of the best in the nation and also probably has or close to the largest majority of Christian school teachers in the nation.

Home Schoolers are given more special privliges than any other group in society. I believe that Home Schooling is very detremental to the children in the educational process. For example would you do home brain surgery or heart surgery or go to a train professional. Obviously anyone would say they would go to the train professional and yet some of the same people think they are benefiting their children by not allowing them to be taught by trained professionals.

All the people who think the public education system is so bad in this country I have to ask what are they trying to do to improve it. Are they running for school board, or going to school board or other meeting? Also how can a parent no matter what level of education be able to give their child a balanced education? The main reasons I have seen for Home Schooling is that parents do not want their children to interact with others who may have a different thought process than them and in some cases their children are not doing as well in school so they blame the school system when it could be the parents not taking enought interested in the community and/or child's education or thinks that their child is not doing well it is the school system and not their extemely intellegent child.

It is most disturbing that a large number of Home Schoolers come from families that would consider themselves to be Christians. I do not know how this squares with Jesus' command that Christians should be salt and light when these people want their children withdrawn from society.

Tax breaks, etc.

Author: Meg
Date: 01-14-03 10:30

First, if you want to see a fine example of how home schoolers are discriminated against, check out your 2002 IRS Tax Booklet. K-12 teachers are allowed to deduct $250 for expenses, but homeschool parents are not. So, my tax money is going to pay to support public schools but I can't deduct legitimate expenses that are probably similar for a K-12 teacher?

Second, please realize that compulsory education is still a process mainly started to keep children off the streets after child-labor laws were repealed and that a majority of public school students are not ready for college even after 12 years of education.

Third, homeschooling is a choice and one that should be supported by the Federal Government. Guidelines should be mandated for the states to follow.

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: Billy Bossier
Date: 01-14-03 10:32

I am the parent of a homeschooled 5 year old so this debate is something that I don't expect to deal with for at least half a decade.

I decided to home school my child because of the inferior public school system and the only monderately superior private school system.

The university system is requesting accountability for the homeschooling applicant when the public school system has not proven that they themselves are worthy of lack of accountability.

There are several factors to consider:

1. Public and private school systems vary widely in overall ability to serve their students. Students still leave school barely able to read and write and then enter college attending remedial classes. However, a great deal of time is spent training their students to take the standardized tests and perform adequately so that the public school "accountability" is fulfilled.

2. These tests are inconvenient and expensive to take. After having already shouldered the time and money necessary to adequately home school. They must shoulder the further expense of a battery of tests. Note the average yearly income of parents of homeschooled students is several thousand under the average income experienced by the parents of a public schooled student and quite a bit lower than the income of private school parents.

3. The home schooled student is held to a higher standard than the public or private schooled student. Both for purposes of scholarships and for purposes of admission.

4. Home schooling is fast being proven a superior way to educate children. In studies home schooled students perform higher on tests. They are better socialized. They perform better in college. Why should the require further accountabilty for something that works while easing standards for things that do not work (public school)

The crux of the argument for me comes to this. If the college admissions office feels they need further accountability apply the accountability across the board. If they need an adequate score on the ACT subject tests then they should require that exact same score from every single student who attends the university not just the home schooled student. If they wish to award a scholarship to students who have a 29 on the ACT then they should equally consider every student who has a 29 whether they are a home schooled student,a private school student or a public school student.

It does not matter if the public school puts out several high scorers each year. It only matters whether the public school taught the particular applicant. Likewise it does not matter that a student was home schooled if he has adequately mastered the subject matter.

Your child's future

Author: S. Parish, physician
Date: 01-14-03 11:10

I am a parent of two children, a daughter in public high school and a son in homeschool seventh grade. I have read the responses in this colloquy with interest. There are many issues which deserve debate in the homeschooling realm although I will just touch on one of the issues here.

When a parent and child determine that homeschooling is their desired option for education they must understand the responsibility the decision entails. A parent/teacher must look at curriculums, social activities, sports, and community resources and decide how to integrate each aspect of your child's education into a "homeschool" program. The question for homeschool parent/teachers should not be, "How can I mirror the public school education?" but the question should be, "How can I exceed the public school education standards?."

It is the parents' responsibility to know the local, state, and federal regulations concerning your child's education. If a college requires an official transcript or diploma for entrance I do not see that as an intrusion on my child's rights. Many times it is lack of planning on the parents part that leads to complaints over college entrance requirements. My son is in the second semester of seventh grade and has already voiced interests in certain colleges and careers. We have already explored entrance requirements at those colleges to be sure that his path of education through high school provides him an equal opportunity at any college/university he decides to attend. As his parent if I ignore the requirements for a transcript and/or a diploma and design a curriculum to suit my own desires then I have failed as his teacher and have placed him at a disadvantage.

Several universities have recognized the need for quality curricula at the middle and high school levels for homeschools and have developed excellent programs to fill this void. My son currently takes U.S. History and English courses from Brigham Young University (we are not members of the Mormon church for any who are thinking this was a religious choice) because they offer challenging courses with easy access to their teachers. His pre-algebra and physical science classes are from other sources. I spent many hours researching before deciding on the curriculum this semester. We are already looking at several complete high school curricula since a unified source resulting in a diploma will simplify the college admission process. One program which appears promising is the Indiana University High School and we are gathering details about their program. Other high school programs we have considered are Brigham Young, Texas Tech, Univ. of Missouri to name just a few. I want to remove barriers to his future not build them.

Whether government regulations on homeschooling are increased or decreased it is still the parents' responsibility to work within the framework we are given to provide the best possible education to our children. Life is an education that doesn't stop after high school, college, or graduate school. My advice for parents who decide to homeschool --- plan, plan, plan.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Billy Bossier
Date: 01-14-03 11:14

The following are a few samples of scholarly articles and dissertations that have been written about home school success.

Admission Requirements For Home Schooled Students At Member Institutions of the Coalition for Christian Colleges and Universities. A dissertation submitted at the University of Sarasota By John Mealy Febuary 1998.

The observations from admissions officers about the student's success are interesting.

Are there Significant Differences in Academic Achievement Between Home Schooled and Conventionally Schooled Students. A thesis submitted at Edminton Canada by Maria C Watkins.

The homeschooled students performed equally well to public schooled students in grades 3 to 6 on writing but performed far superior in reading. Note it is important to note that this paper was written by someone who was obviously slanted against the homeschooling movement yet the home schooled students performed better or equally well on the tests.

An Ethnographic Case Study of Three Home Schooling Families In Central Pennsylvania and their Socio-Cultural Support Group. A Thesis by Eve C Shallenberger. Pennsylvania State University.

This gives many examples of why modern homeschoolers are not socially damaged. I could with a quick search of the ERIC database procure vast knowledge of why the public school system produces many social problems.

Paradigmatic Orientations in Home and Private Schooling Familes. Thesis by Christine Pegorraro. Michigan State University. 1999.

It compared academic success among a very exclusive private school and home schooled students who volunteered to assist in the study and found them equal.

The research is admittedly sadly lacking. The home schooling community does not have the resources to fund major research projects. Preferring to use the funds the do have to educate their children and try to prevent the government from removing their ability to do so. The public schooling community has a vested interest in trying to disprove the effectiveness of home schooling since the research that is done shows home schooling in a favorable light they have no interest in doing more indepth research. However, their is some research and inadequate though it is, it shows a definate trend towards homeschoolers having a superior education not an inferior one.

The opinion that homeschoolers are inadequately prepared and socially inadequate are simply not based on fact. They are anecdotal based on limited experience.

I feel no desire to place my child in the diseased school system in order fix it. This is a similar argument to placing your child in a plague zone so he can personally administer placebos so that the person adminstered the drug will think he is getting better. I currently concentrate my efforts on something I know I can do. Educating my child and placing at least one adequately educated child into the world. When that job is done then I can concentrate my efforts into improving the system. Then if I fail in the task at least I will have fulfilled my primary purpose.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Molly Mfume, Professor Emeritus, U of Portland
Date: 01-14-03 11:17

The college admission standards should, if anything, be LOWERED for home-schooled children. We lower admission standards all the time for racial minorities under the guise of "diversity" and "fairness"---even though many, many of these students simply aren't qualified. (As a case in point, look at what Univ. of Calif did do and what the Univ. of Michigan is doing.)

Study after study has shown conclusively that home-schooled children are head and shoulders above those producted by our leftist, politically correct public education systems. I believe the home-schooled children are being discriminated against merely because of who they are. Let's face it. The teachers' unions don't like home-schoolers and would eliminate them if they could. This is just one more way they can stick-it-to-them....

Re: Friends in high places

Author: David Foster
Date: 01-14-03 11:17

"As Arthur Levine, president of Teachers' College at Columbia University, puts it, "If my daughter had appendicitis but I was worried about hospital mortality rates, what would you think if I said, `I'll get some books and read up on appendicitis and treat her myself at home.'? You'd think that's ridiculous."

A ridiculous comparison. There is no justification for the idea that "teaching" is an esoteric skill that is possessed only by the graduates of an appropriately-accredited Teachers' College.

Parents teach their children a wide range of things -- why on earth would they not also be able to teach them reading, history, or arithmetic? Indeed, people of all kinds teach, on a daily basis, throughout America. Foremen teach workers. Military officers teach soldiers. Flight instructors teach pilots. Coaches teach athletes. College professors teach students. Few if any of these people have attended a Teachers' College.

And if the curriculum of the typical medical school was as silly as the curriculum of the typical Teachers' College, hospital mortaility rates would be a lot higher than they are, to the point where we *would* all seriously consider doing our own appendicitis operations.

photoncourier.blogspot.com

Re: Friends in high places

Author: A. Robinson, UCSD
Date: 01-14-03 12:56

Home schooling ... now there is an interesting concept.

Basically, children are being home schooled because of religious reasons. Most home-schooled children are being taught by their parents who do not agree with either the methods of public schools, the material or concepts that

Not true; a growing percentage of home schooled children are taken out of the public school system because the quality of the education they can get there is very low. Religious issues do not enter into the picture. In my experience this accounts for at least 20% home schooled students, and the numbers seem to be growing in that direction.

The basic fact is that pubic education in this country is failing, and that children taken out of it almost invariably do better for it.

Re: Frank Kile's remarks...

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-14-03 13:18

Mr. Kyle,

Quote:
"...Personally have known a couple of people who were Home Schooled and without exception their social skills were very poor and in many cases their basic intellectual ability appeared questionable..."

Mr Kyle, I believe this remark to be predjudicial. The test would be to substitute in place of "Home Schooled" a phrase like "African American" "Jewish" "Islamic" and so forth.

It is the same if I said that there have been no multiple murders of students in a home school evironment. Then I went on to say that the social skills of children from public schools were all poor because public schools trained students to be sociopathic.

It is not a fair statement and it does not differentiate between competent home schooling and incompetent home schooling. We find problems everywhere and schooling is no exception. No matter what the system in our society you can always find someone abusing it.

Blanket statements will take your argument no where and certainly will not gain consensus with your point, which I beleve to be a form of "teachers as experts".

Teachers ARE experts in their field. There is no way that some parents can teach their children Calculus, Physics, Chemistry or Human Anatomy and Physiology or even Psychology for that matter. Unfortunately, many, many expert teachers are unable to teach to the best of their ability because of public school administrative structures.

There is a point where home schooling just will not work unless suplimented by extensive expertise. Generally, that point is reached in the beginning of High School.

I agree in principle that there is a place where what you are saying is true in the home school vs. public school debate.

Mr. Kyle..quote..
"I also met a teacher from a local school district in my area and he had said almost without fail when a home schooled child comes into a public or private school they are nearly always at least two grade levels behind the other children."

I am a public school teacher in a Jr. College environment in a medical specialty area. The home schooled students that I have dealt with are indistinguishable from those schooled in a public school system.

When a teacher in a public school system tells you that home schooled students from grades K - 8 are all behind a year or two please consider the source.

I have not home schooled any of my children. I had no problems with public schools with my two older children who are 31 and 28 respectively. My problems started when we tried to enroll my son who is 22 now in Kindergarten.

The school system had placed an old screening program that had been thrown out by the Boulder Co. public school system 20 years earlier because it did not work and other various school systems throughout the country.

We ended up schooling my two youngest children in a Laboratory schoo on the Campus of Indiana State University. This school is no more mostly because the local school corporation would do nothing to support it because of mostly philosophical and political reasons.

If you would like to read how the school corporation is my area is ran please go back and read some of my erlier posts in this thread.

I found a lot of this out running for school board here locally. It is very hard to have a quality product when is is being managed in an oppressive manner. Public school systems in this country are all of that and more.

Basically, public schools are two large to adequately serve the student on a personal level. The impersonal way that our children are treated in public school systems boarders on abuse.

It has been my experience that public schools do not care about the student and parent. Most parent organizations within schools function to keep parents and student in their place in the scheme of things.

Oh, one more thing. I have taught High School. I think that the "closed campus" idea is one of the most oppressive systems imaginable.

Too many High School students have not been taught to be responsible and have not been given chances to display the ability to handle responsibility.

Too many parents EXPECT the teachers to in fact be "...in loco parentis..." and raise the children who should be able to be trusted. Then, when other parents find their children being "raised" by the school, they have a right to be angry about it.

Of course, if they express this to school officials they are immediately labeled by them as "against public education", "backward" and so forth.

In schools we need security to keep those people out of school that would harm our children, but mostly schools today have uniformed guards to keep students in.

What is really needed in this country are schools at the elementary level where the Principal can call not only your child by their first name but also you by your first name.

What is needed in this country are school systems that let teachers teach to the best of their ability without saddling them with ideas that were thrown out somewhere else over 20 years ago that are adopted under the guise of progress. What is needed is classes with 18 - 20 students or less .

What is needed in public education more teachers aides and more accountability without oppressive administrative structures. If we call our school teachers professionals then it is time to start treating them like professionals.

And finally... (at last, poor Frank must be saying by now...)

Quote...
"...For example would you do home brain surgery or heart surgery or go to a train professional. Obviously anyone would say they would go to the train professional and yet some of the same people think they are benefiting their children by not allowing them to be taught by trained professionals.

Mr Kyle,

If I had a problem like you describe neither would I go to a Chiropractor who is not competent to do the procedure. But what if the hospital told the doctors that they could no longer use their dominant hand when doing surgery?

What if a school corporation forbids teachers to teach reading using phonics and that they must instead use the "whole word" method? What if a school corporation forbids the drilling of multiplication tables because it is not enough fun?

On the other hand, school teaching is not brain or heart surgery. Neither is it rocket science. It is mostly love of people, work ethic and common sense. When you have been taken advantage of by school administrations it is hard to retain these qualities.

Still, I find that the majority of the teachers for the most part have these qualities. It has been my experience that public school corporation adminstrators do not.

Re: Need for transcripts

Author: A. Robinson, UCSD
Date: 01-14-03 13:23

There seems to be an assumption here than there is a background neccessary for college level education. Now, I admit, this seems so fundumental an assumption that nobody would think to challenge it. As far as I can tell, however, this assumption is largely wrong.

This is my story, in short: I was home schooled from birth through age 16; durring that time I was a inquiring youth, and spent a generous amont of time reading non-fiction. As far as formal education, however, the only subjects I completed were math through algrebra, and a little english.

Then at sixteen I enrolled as a non-degree seeking student at the local state university (Virginia Tech). This allowed me to take whatever classes I wanted, as long as there was space in them. There I took a wide range of science and math classes (psychology, biology, chemistry, calculus, computer science), and a couple English classes.

Though all the classes seemed to assume I had a normal high-school background in the topic of the class, in fact each was my first exposer to the materials. And yet, I was able to get straight As across the 42 credits I accumulated at the university before I transfered to a more prestigious institution. Getting straight As wasn't exactly easy; I did have to work hard, but the point here is that no background was actually necessary in order to do well in those classes (and by well, I mean significantly better than the average student).

Perhaps if I had taken more wishy-washy classes (that is, non science) more background would have been assumed, but certainly this should make you question just how much formal background is really necessary before attending college. Perhaps if I had been at Harvard, more background would have been assumed there as well. But in my rather limited experince, undergraudate education programs do not really assume any background knowledge that cannot be learned just by careful study of the textbooks.

The real question, I think, is how to tell if the student you are admitting into your college will have the motivation and skill to do well by the education you offer them. I'm not so sure the SAT (I or II) really tells you much about that.

Give 'em to me!

Author: Mike Shaub, Professor, St. Mary's University
Date: 01-14-03 15:38

Any time you want to give me a university classroom full of home schooled students, I'll take them! I can guarantee that it will be a happy semester for me.

And to those institutions nervous about taking them, and creating barriers to their entry, thanks! Please send them my way!

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: John P. Lesko, PhD Saginaw Valley State University
Date: 01-14-03 17:03

I'd agree with Mike. Give 'em to me too! As an assistant professor of English, I would have to say that the home schooled students I have taught have been some of the most delightful students to teach? Why make it harder for such students to enter college? Why not make it easier as one respondant suggested? Home schooled students are better prepared. They have a sense of independence and responsibility. They are outgoing and motivated--not to mention polite, respectful--in short, a pleasure to work with.

If I sound a bit biased in favor of home school, mea culpa, I am. I went through the public education system back in the 80s, and I would never want my 5 children to go through the public school experience. So my wife and I have decided to homeschool, for academic, and social, and religious reasons. We feel that we can give so much better of an education to our children than any public education system could. We love our children--something which, as another respondant emphasized--the public education system will never do.

Again, give 'em to me too! Send them this way.

HSLDA

Author: Greg Jaxon
Date: 01-15-03 10:58

As Patrick Jung pointed out - politics is again making strange ideological bedfellows. The Home School Legal Defense Assoc (HSLDA) is unique in the homeschooling community is wishing for legal recognition and codification of what is otherwise an unregulated matter of natural law: that education of a child is the responsibility of its parents or guardians. Many of us homeschoolers believe their intent is just to make a more carefully fenced legal niche into which they can sell their expensive legal insurance, profits from which fund the political careers of their Washington lobbyists.

Thoughtful college admissions personnel recognize that "certifications" self- or otherwise just aren't definitive. Testing is slightly better, but there is really no sure measure of the"ability to benefit from higher education". A home schooler at the very least is one who has encountered the need for self-motivation in acquiring an education. This attitude, so often lacking in high school graduates, is probably the most significant advantage a home schooler brings to the college experience.

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-15-03 13:35

Dr. Lesko states...
"...Home schooled students are better prepared. They have a sense of independence and responsibility. They are outgoing and motivated--not to mention polite, respectful--in short, a pleasure to work with..."

This is a direct result of the young person being taught to be responsible and being treated like an adult. Surprise! They start behaving like a respectful, responsible adult if you do.

In all my dealings with everyone that I encounter I find that if you treat people with respect and expect them to be responsible that they in turn will exhibit the traits of respect and responsibility.

I have encountered all types of people as a High School teacher, a medical professional and a College Instructor-Professor / Program Director. There are no exceptions to what it is that I am saying. It is a basic trait of humanity.

Young people are no exception. If you teach a child, whether or not they are home schooled, responsiblity and respect then they will mirror and exhibit those behaviors.

Many times this requires that the young person have a one on one teacher to student relationship with an adult. Or, it requires that the young person be taught these things by a parent. It always requires that the school and the parents work together because there is just no way that a teacher of a minor child can accomplish anything without the parent's cooperation.

Also, there is just no way that a teacher, administrator or school can accomplish anything without cooperating with, respecting and looking upon parents as equals in the education of the child / young adult.

There are parents out there who are less than responsible but none of those in this category care enough to home school their children.

Also, it is high time that educators admit that there exists certain ones among them and certain administrative structures that are inadequate, disrespectful and incompetent.

These are usually the ones in every public school who treat EVERY parent as if THEY were the ones who were inadequate, uncooperative and irresponsible.

This breakdown is what we are seeing on a large scale that is a significant cause of the need for the home school movement.

This problem is never one-sided. You have to want to get along to be able to get along in education and in the world in general. Public education cannot hide in the ivory tower of academe and expect to educate the public in the Primary and Secondary levels. They must exhibit mutual respect to make progress.

It is time that the leaders of public education and the leaders of the home school movement start cooperating and networking.

If educators love the public schools so much then it is time that they listened. It is time that they look at humanistic values as something that a certain segment of our society will never accept and start making a place in the public school systems for these people, too.

Otherwise, the public schools are going to lose and indeed are losing the best students to alternative forms of Primary and Secondary education including but not limited to home schooling.

The bottom line is that public schools are too big and impersonal too early to provide the nurturing that young people need to become respectful and responsible. Attitudes exhibited to some parents are contributing to this problem. Bigger is not always better.

Re: Frank Kile

Author: LeslieM / homeschool mom
Date: 01-15-03 16:29

Frank Kile wrote:

When Home School parents start complaining about requiring tests for high school equivelency it makes one wonder how much of their statement is factual.

Frank, what I see parents complaining about is having to jump through *extra* hoops that public-schooled students don't have to....a different point altogether. I live in a small town with a small town school. The calculus class at that school rarely makes it through more than 1/6th of the book, yet the (2-5) students who take that class receive one credit of calculus for the year. Why should "calculus" on the public school transcript carry any more weight than the "calculus" on my homeschooled child's transcript (who, by the way, will finish the entire book to receive one calculus credit)?

Frank also wrote:

I also met a teacher from a local school district in my area and he had said almost without fail when a home schooled child comes into a public or private school they are nearly always at least two grade levels behind the other children.

Someone else suggested to 'consider the source' and, while I agree, I also see another valid point here---that when (a handful of) homeschooled students *enter* (or re-enter) public school, it means, by default, that homeschooling *wasn't* working for them. They and/or their parents realized this and put them back in school.

Using your logic, then, the *thousands* of public (& private) school students who leave those schools (2 or more grade levels behind; with NO enjoyment for learning anymore) for homeschooling would be proof-positive that public and private school doesn't work. Yeah? Looks that way from where I sit......

--LeslieM

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: V. V. Raman
Date: 01-15-03 16:54

A New Idea

Instead of arguing about which is better and which has failed, perhaps we should develop a system which is a healthy blending of the two: Students who have the resources (parents/wards/tutors, etc.) will go to school twice a week, and study at home the rest of the days. In this age of computers and internet, it should be possible to make this an effective mode of education. We may consider giving the same tests to all students so that there is some uniformity in evaluation. Schools may be save lots of money in this new system. Classes will be smaller, because a number of parents will opt for this system.. I feel that this idea deserves to be explored further by educationists.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: V. V. Raman
Date: 01-15-03 16:56

Instead of arguing which is better and which has failed, perhaps we should develop a system which is a healthy blending of the two: Students who have the resources (parents/wards/tutors, etc.) will go to school twice a week, and study at home the rest of the days.

In this age of computers and internet, it should be possible to make this an effective mode of education. We may consider giving the same tests to all students so that there is some uniformity in evaluation. Schools may be save lots of money in this new system. Classes will be smaller, because a number of parents will opt for this system.

I feel that this idea deserves to be explored further by educationists.

V. V. Raman
January 15, 2003

Re: Friends in high places

Author: David Foster
Date: 01-16-03 10:16

The whole issue here is how the knowledge level of homeschooled kids should be evaluated, given that they don't have an official transcript from an official high school.

But why should anyone think such an official transcript means anything, anyhow? There is a huge difference in quality among high schools...an "A" in Algebra II in one place may mean something totally different from an "A" in a course with the exact same name at another school...and this is even more true for History or Geography.

Seems to me a college would want to establish a *certain minimum level of subject-matter knowledge* expected of all entering students, regardless of their SAT scores, extracurricular activities, self-promotional skills, etc. I don't think it would be all that difficult to develop a test for such knowledge. It doesn't need to be uniform on a national level; each college should have their own depending on their mission and curriculum.

Absent such baseline knowledge requirements, it must be very difficult to teach college classes...you have no idea what you can assume is already known.

It all comes back to Peter Drucker's comment: there's way too much emphasis on "potential," and not nearly enough on "performance."

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Kathleen C. Martin, graduate student/Brandeis Universit
Date: 01-16-03 11:27

I couldn't agree more with Ms. White's perspective; it is obvious to me that part of what's involved here is an attempt to pretend that a "normal" school does a better job of preparing a student for college than homeschooling does. Some homeschool programs aren't very good; the same can be said for many high schools. Why assume that a high school graduate is well prepared, or that a homeschooled student is not?

Although Massachusetts affords one of the most "homeschool-friendly" environments in the country, thanks to court decisions, I had a constant struggle with my local school authorities to convince them that my program for my daughter was "up to standards." They objected to my lesson plans in history even though I was an ABD in Comparative History at a prestigious university. If I can teach undergraduates, might I not be qualified to teach a high school student? They also incessantly questioned my fitness to teach my daughter English, although this annual ritual ended when she scored 800 on the verbal section of the SAT. Fortunately for us, Bryn Mawr College felt secure enough in its reputation to accept her without a high school diploma - a decision I am quite sure they did not regret, since she graduated last May with Departmental Honors in (of all things!) English.

All colleges face problems in evaluating the credentials of applicants. While they can't be sure how good a preparation has been given at home, they also can't be sure how good a preparation has been given in school. An arbitrary decision to trust the word of an unknown high school principal over the word of an unknown parent may give admissions committees a greater feeling of security, but this security is an illusion.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: John Garner
Date: 01-16-03 12:13

Dr. Raman is brilliant!!!!

Why couldn't we have a modification of the current "homebound" system that every school corporation has to have as a matter of special educaion law.

The goal of this modification would be to open up the education of the home-schooled to trained teaching professionals and suppliment the parents of the home schooled with professional educators in the needed areas. This way, the student would be able to get a quality education in areas that the parent may not be able to provide.

I wonder if an innovative school system somewhere might not be able start this as a pilot program? I would think that someone may be abel to write for a grant to try this.

If there is anyone reading this who is an expert in grant-writing maybe you could offer your opinion as to the possibility of obtaining funding for a school corporation to do this.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: howiff cc teacher
Date: 01-16-03 12:47

i am enjoying this discussion. my wife and i homeschool our children because of our fundamental dislike of the concept of COMPULSORY education. as any teacher (lets not do the trained professional bit please) will tell you, forcing people to learn anything is the best way of turning them off to learning. i ran an informal experiment in my gen ed. classes for a year where i tested students on friday and had them take the test again unnanounced the following monday. i found the normal test distributions disappeared on the monday because almost all the students had forgotten most of what they had "learned". our compulsory education system is a joke. the whole concept forces students to temporarily remember information that most of them will never use just so they can walk away with a piece of paper that says they are educated. what nonsense. forcing read, remember, and regurgitate on students invariably turns them off to learning. as far as i am concerned leaving children to learn what they want to learn and helping them if they want it, is a far superior way to gain an education and nurture a love of learning. i am still waiting to use the geometry, calculus, algebra, technical drawing, chemistry, physics, etc. that i was forced to learn as a child. what a waste of time. this also applies to the moronic gen ed requirements at most colleges. our discussion should not be what students need to do to satisfy our needs, rather it should be what can we do to satisfy the students' needs. get rid of gen ed requirements let students learn what they want to learn and pin them down when needed (upper level classes, training for a profession, etc.) . it would make our current discusssion moot.

Brilliant indeed ! ! !

Author: J.P.Lesko, Phd SVSU
Date: 01-16-03 16:24

John Garner writes

"Why couldn't we have a modification of the current "homebound" system that every school corporation has to have as a matter of special educaion law.

The goal of this modification would be to open up the education of the home-schooled to trained teaching professionals and suppliment the parents of the home schooled with professional educators in the needed areas. This way, the student would be able to get a quality education in areas that the parent may not be able to provide."

Response: Actually, many homeschooling parents are already--and have been--doing just that. Modifying their instruction from mere "homebound" pedagogy. This modification and supplementation involves hiring tutors for certain components of a child's education (for ex, an area the parent is not an expert in), planning curricular and extr-curricular activities and interaction for their children (and not just with other homeschoolers), and even enrolling their children in one or 2 college courses per year when they reach the early teen years.

A lot of creative options are open with regard to homeschooling for motivated and dedicated parents. "Trained" and "Professional" educators aren't the only ones with bright ideas.

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: Pam
Date: 01-16-03 22:04

Dear Mr. Shaub,

Thank you. Your words are music to my ears!

When my homeschooled eldest entered college, Martin Luther King Jr was firmly in my mind, as I had to battle administrators who were very clearly opposed to my daughter's presence on "their" campus. I was told that my polite, motivated, hungry to learn-and-interact daughter's presence and her grades on classroom assignments was making "the other students feel badly". Ergo, she should leave. Friends and students of the teacher's made regular points of calling her names and attempting to humiliate my daughter in the classroom. You know why? She was actually there to learn -- and, she didn't just sit in class as a lump of clay. She was accustomed to interacting with a teacher. It took approximately two years of some very rough times, and resilient stands, and the college lightened up.

But, we did learn it was best if we could "hide" my children's ages. Why? Because the minute it was revealed that they were under 18, they were treated to the classic NEA-stereotypes, as tho my children were strange creatures in a zoo to be commented upon. That was bearable; and certainly because we already knew for far too long what the unions had been promoting -- that is, that homeschooled children lack socialization. The classic question: Do you have friends? Do you know how to have any?

You couldn't meet more sociallly adept children than especially my two daughters.

However, there are still teachers at colleges who are horribly biased against homeschooled children. Although my children have done their best to keep private their ages and their past schooling; once word gets out -- sometimes it can be quite punishing.

One English instructor at a college learned from a student that my second daughter had been homeschooled. My daughter had had this teacher a prior semester -- and was treated as a star pupil. But once the truth was "out"; this teacher worked regularly to humiliate and debase my daughter in her classroom -- going as far as to proclaim to the class that, and I quote: "homeschoolers are criminals and they are taking the place in colleges that should be going to minorities."

First, that is a lie -- homeschoolers being "criminals" that has been fostered within various school districts by unions. It is entirely legal within my state to homeschool. But second part of her sentence is so very racist. And had this particular daughter portrayed "minority" markings?? the teacher wouldn't have made such an assertion, perhaps? Just an ugly dual assertion no matter the illogic.

It didn't hamper my daughter. I nearly burst a blood vessel; but my daughter simply and calmly decided this teacher had far more many problems, and most certainly a troubled soul. My daughter was given c's and d's routinely on all papers. But, my daughter refused to withdraw from the class. My daughter is not 'grade obsessed' although she maintains a very high GPA. She not only got this endured and required Eng class done -- but she figured she learned far more about herself and the world than the teacher thought was being taught.

One last canard alert? (If you don't mind me soapboxing here...)

Years and years ago.. when the teachers' unions and NEA put out the "issue" avering that homeschoolers lacked "socialization skills"? Funny thing happened, people who used to be our friends, stopped being our friends. If out and about, people asking us questions, learned we were one of those "homeschooling" families -- they'd register shock; but then they'd move away from us rather quickly.

Of course, in time, we found newer friends; however -- the Educrats made a bald assertion that there was something terribly wrong with homeschoolers -- something so wrong that "right" thinking people should avoid them.

It seemed then to me, as it still does -- the NEA and Educrats may have put forth a self-fullfilling prophecy.

If Educators In The Land, the "annointed", the "Credentialed" (to the masses) aver that something is very wrong with those "homeschoolers", and people then avoid the homeschoolers -- wouldn't it occur to some that homeschoolers are being stereotyped and discriminated against on social levels? Thereby contributing to homeschoolers seeming to appear "isolated", when in fact it might be due to the very stereotype the Educrats put forward themselves?

I've met other homeschoolers who do seem isolated. (Even more from pub ed; but another subject.) They've been cut off from family, friends, acceptance -- and simply because they are not "doing the system" thing. It's a sad thing to witness; and primarily -- because we too had to go through it. Ostracization. Time and time again. We're just too social in my family to let anyone get us down and out by a stereotype.

Again, thanks for the warm and inviting encouragement, sir.

Can't begin to tell you how nice it is!

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: Pam
Date: 01-16-03 22:32

If my other children get anywhere near your college -- they'll be following you around, and the courses you, like a hound dogs! :)

I will state here, schooling my children was not at ALL what I had envisioned for myself. Or my doing as a parent. There was no other way through it. I did fight within the system and the payback was given to my children. As another poster suggested about fighting to change the system from within?

I've been there and done that. And what did it get me? My kids being pulled out of class and queried by "specialists" to ascertain whether I was beating my children at home, or did I have guns in the house. District also went after my third child, my son. Because he wasn't very verbal; but very active -- they threatened me with a child neglect charge if I didn't hand him over to the system and have him put on drugs. This was in the way early 90s. And he was age 3.

Because of my "politics". Because of my attempting to work within the system -- I nearly lost my children or had them taken from me. So, until or unless these type of gestapo-like activities stop being masqueraded as "coincidence" or "for the children" actions, there is NO working within the system; certainly not in my locale.

Man, oh, man. did I try. As my children's parent? It is my responsibility to care for them, to educate them, to protect them from harm. The schools and the education they weren't getting was harmful to my children.

And so, I did the best I could by my children. And it has worked out so very well for them. Every year, there's some newer gambit with the state (which can be quite unpleasant). Assuredly, I want the best for my children -- and that includes the very BEST TEACHERS. But so many potentially good teachers are being harnessed into NOT teaching (k-12). They are being hamstrung by curriculum mandates and ideologic partisan politics.

However, two very important matters remain:

1. My children not only love learning -- their output is mandatory. They work hard. They know that knowledge is all around them, if they would work at getting it. Being knowledgeable in and of itself is insufficient. They know that knowledge is the key underpinning of freedom; and must be a life-long venture; but acted upon. It must be used and produced. It must be more than just a "head adventure".

2. My children know that I will do whatever I must to protect them, to nurture them, to work with WHO they are; as opposed to what the world, or sytems, think each of them should become or think or do, one day.

3 -- add. Education has never been a freebie of the system to my children -- and therefore, they do not take education for granted; and appreciate their teachers who've spent years mastering subjects. Ergo, my children give respect; knowing as they do, how hard they've had to work to obtain their own education. En point: they don't have an attitude. Nor do they see the classroom as something they must just "get through". They appreciate the process of learning -- and see it all as phenomenal tools and gifts from those who impart it.

No, I'm not "credentialled". And I had to relearn subjects and master subjects myself. I had to become extremely resourceful in finding teachers (on the outside) and labs. I did trades and pay in working with specialized instructors in subjects I simply could not master or conduct.

My eldest took part in the very first "cyber learning" classroom, with students from all over the world. She learned journalism and latin, online. And locally, I was fortunate to plead and beg retired teachers in physics, for example, to give my children some tutoring when rough areas were encountered. We went online, we live at the library -- the information to overcome limitations is VAST and readily available.

But face to face learning learning is the best.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: Jack - Researching homeschooled students
Date: 01-16-03 22:43

There have been some interesting discussions going on. So far, I haven't taken the time to respond. but I would like to address a few points in Frank's posting.

Frank Kile, Accountant III/TAMU System HSC wrote:

I find it interesting in that one of the items the parents in the Home School movement like to say is their children do better on standarized tests than their counterparts. When Home School parents start complaining about requiring tests for high school equivelency it makes one wonder how much of their statement is factual.

There are not a large number of studies on this topic, but the ones that have been done indicate that homeschooled students do tend to do better on average than students with a more "traditional" education. You imply that homeschooled students are afraid that they will be found to be frauds. The article seemed to suggest that homeschooled students want special treatment. I would argue, however, that most just want to be treated equally!

Personally have known a couple of people who were Home Schooled and without exception their social skills were very poor and in many cases their basic intellectual ability appeared questionable.

First, we all know that there are always some who don't do especially well with a type of pedagogy. But, you can't judge the whole lot by a few bad apples. Also, you do recognize that your subjective opinion of these folks is probably not sufficient evidence to doom homeschooling? A parent's sujective evaluation of their student is decried by many, but then these folks turn around and subjectively belittle homeschooling. The objective evidence suggests that largely homeschooling works pretty well.

I also met a teacher from a local school district in my area and he had said almost without fail when a home schooled child comes into a public or private school they are nearly always at least two grade levels behind the other children.

Maybe in his district, but again the studies that have been done show that homeschooled students typically perform a grade level better than their public school peers until they get into the fourth grade and then the gap begins to get WIDER!

Home Schoolers are given more special privliges than any other group in society.

Really?!? How so? I would really love for you to support this statement.

I believe that Home Schooling is very detremental to the children in the educational process. For example would you do home brain surgery or heart surgery or go to a train professional. Obviously anyone would say they would go to the train professional and yet some of the same people think they are benefiting their children by not allowing them to be taught by trained professionals.

Vacuous argument. Teaching is NOT brain surgery. We can also make other medical analogies, but none would be very good. We should just stick with an analysis of what homeschooled students can and can't do.

All the people who think the public education system is so bad in this country I have to ask what are they trying to do to improve it.

Another fallacy. Not everyone who homeschools is opposed to public school systems. Many are, but there are other reasons to homeschool also.

The main reasons I have seen for Home Schooling is that parents do not want their children to interact with others who may have a different thought process

Not true. Many homeschooled kids compete in local sports leagues and are involved with other civic organizations.

It is most disturbing that a large number of Home Schoolers come from families that would consider themselves to be Christians. I do not know how this squares with Jesus' command that Christians should be salt and light when these people want their children withdrawn from society.

Surely you understand that there are other ways to be salt and light - right? I agree with you, Christians are called to be examples, but this can be done in many ways. Are you a parent? If so, I am sure that you have made the best decisions you could for your children. In short, why should parents of homeschooled children not do the same?

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: Pam
Date: 01-16-03 22:44

Mr. Raman,

"healthy blending of the two: Students who have the resources (parents/wards/tutors, etc.) will go to school twice a week, and study at home the rest of the days."

I've done this too. There is a problem with this; and that is curriculum. This blending is commonly called the "ISP program" (Independent Study Program). Up until recently in my state, the parents could select the curriculum, the "advisor" would review curriculum, assuring it met the "requirements" of the state. This has changed. NOW, Gov Gray Davis & Delaine Eastin have mandated it be altered to "school at home". Basically, the school picks all the literature and subjects, and the parents simply make sure the student does the homework. The ISP students are using the same lousy curriculum as their peers in pub ed; but meeting with an advisor once or twice a week -- being given their assignments -- and the parents job, sole job, is to supervise.

In states where the curriculum might be good, or in locations where the schools are unsafe or whatnot -- this is an excellent route.

However, mandates have changed. Many of the current ISP students in my state are having to be labeled as "disabled" or IEP'd in order to stay in the program. And because the nature of ISP has changed from advisor merely works with the thrust and focus of parent/teacher and the student to School Mandates and Parent agrees and supervises. Many of the ISP students were/are using curriculum the state does not or will not recognize -- therefore, they are having to get a "disabled" label in order to stay in the program, and the parents and students are having to completely alter their 'schooling" program. There are no caveats or exceptions.

So, the blending idea is conceptually good and I can see where it has benefits. Plus, the ISP shows "proof of schooling".

However, I've already seen the "other side" of this "blending concept" -- and it is s politics as usual. Sad.

Re: Give 'em to me!

Author: Jack
Date: 01-16-03 22:57

I would agree. I have taught a number of homeschooled students in college biology courses and have found them to be some of the more enjoyable students to teach.

Send them on!

Re: HSLDA--Really ! ? !

Author: J.P.Lesko, PhD SVSU
Date: 01-17-03 15:06

Greg Jaxon writes:

"Many of us homeschoolers believe their intent is just to make a more carefully fenced legal niche into which they can sell their expensive legal insurance, profits from which fund the political careers of their Washington lobbyists."

Response: This certainly wasn't my perception when first joining HSLDA this past year at $100 per year. With widespread homeschooling being such a recent development, there is indeed a "niche" to fill by an association such as HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association).

But why does this niche exist in the first place? For one thing, a lot of parents have chosen to homeschool for various reasons. For another, serious problems have developed for parents who have chosen to exercise their fully legal homeschool education options (particularly for parents who switch directly from public to homeschooling). For example, in many cases a school superintendant, a social worker, or a pushy truant officer decides (without legal basis) that the homeschoolers need further regulation, monitoring, or what have you. In such cases an association such as HSLDA is able to often resolve the matter by simply informing the concerned parties about what the law actually states, and the complete legality of the homeschool option.

In the most recent edition of the Home School Court Report (volume XIX, number 1), a background is given on how this association came into existence, and it doesn't seem to be to merely fund the political careers of HSLDA lobbyists as Jaxon suggests. Morever, in the same edition of this report, it is evident that HSLDA has helped out with scholarships from a "Members Helping Members Fund" (p12). This hardly seems to constitute "fencing" out a legal niche.

Personally, as a new member homeschooling family with HSLDA, I'm glad that such associations exist to say "Hey, just wait a minute" when over-reaching public school authorites overstep their legal bounds. We need this sort of balance to protect families who decide that homeschooling is the best educational option for their children.

Re: Friends in high places

Author: John Garner - Ivy Tech State College
Date: 01-18-03 00:49

I ran for our local school board in the fall of 2000.

Despite my position as a College Instructor, despite my B.S. degree in Education, despite my special credentials in Radiologic Technology, despite my B.S. in Physics, despite my being a site visitor for an accreditation agency for radiologic technology and despite my current Indiana High School State Teacher's license, the local school corporation as labeled me and my running mate "...enemies of public education..."

Now, let me tell you about my running mate. He and I go to the same Church. He is a 20-year + High School teacher and the President of the Indiana State Teacher's Association in an adjoining county. His wife teaches at a local High School in our school corporation.

You would think that the local school corporation would support fellow educators, right? WRONG!

They supported a Human Resources officer for a local mental health facility and a retired federal correctional officer. Why? Because they knew that they could control them.

It was comical. First, the local Indiana State Teacher's Association officers came out against us. Next, the Administraors Association came out against us. Finally, the School Corporation JANITOR'S union came out against us.

A frend of ours who was on the school board at the time explained it to me this way..."John, it is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY, AND ALL ABOUT THE JOBS"...

That from a single school board member that was targeted for defeat in November of 2002 by the teacher's union, The president of the LOCAL teacher's union sat on his opponent's election committee. Yes, he lost.

The fact that the teachers union came out against a teacher's union president from the next county whose wife teaches in the local corporation is telling.

The school administrators were afraid. They had absolutely no control over either of us. Therefore, the College Instructor and the teacher's union president suddenly became "enemies of public education".

I even received a hate letter from some mis-guided soul who was convinced that if elected that I would be a party [to] "...depriving little children of an education."

It is obvious that our local teacher's union is a COMPANY UNION that does not represent the local teachers at all. Instead, it represents the school corporation.

Before the 2000 election, the local school corporation adopted the "trimester" system. This was done in spite of the fact that 3/4 of the parents in the school corporation and roughly 2/3 of the teachers did not want them. Where these people were at election time I honestly do not know.

Since it suited the purposes of the local administrators and they had the union in their pocket not to mention the school board the measure was adopted.

The power structures in many public school corporations are so skewed so much that they are a caricature of what they were meant to be. The system with checks and balances that is supposed to be ran by an elected school board just does not exist in fact. Usually, the larger the school corporation the more perverse their system becomes.

Nobody should be concerned at all with the destruction of public education. It has already destroyed itself long ago.

Now, if somebody wants to challenge me to run for our local school board again maybe then they would like to foot the bill for the campaign?

We might, maybe, get elected with a warchest of 40 - 50k.

In my last election attempt our opponents spent 20 - 30 k on their campaign after the fund-raiser that was thrown for them by the administrator's association. They out-spent us 2 or 3 to 1.

Their television adds (which we could not afford) were professionally done. You better bet they spent the bucks to get their choice elected.

Oh, did I mention that one of our school board members sells cars and that he has sold the school corporation cars? Indeed...his was the only bid...

Honestly. It would make a funny movie if it was not all true.