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As Technology Evolves, New Forms of Online Racism Emerge

March 13, 2011, 10:15 pm

Austin, Tex.—New forms of online racism are emerging as video games add audio-chat features, and as popular online games draw a more global audience.

That was the message of a panel of academics and journalists at this year’s South by Southwest Interactive conference, an annual event that brings together video-game designers, social-media leaders, and cultural critics looking for the latest technology trends.

A famous New Yorker cartoon has long summed up the anonymizing power of cyberspace: “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.” But in some popular video games and in social virtual worlds like Second Life, voice chat features have been added in the past few years, essentially proving the cartoon outdated. The addition of human voices has led people to make assumptions about the players based on their speech, often on the basis of race. That’s according to research cited at the conference by Lisa Nakamura, a professor of Asian-American studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

One of the most recent studies she mentioned was one done by Gambit, a video-game lab run jointly by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Singapore. The study is known as the Gambit Hate Speech Project, and its leaders have released highlights of their findings in a series of online videos.

Ms. Nakamura said she has been more surprised by completely new kinds of racism on some popular online video games that now count players around the world. For instance, in China large numbers of users began earning a living playing Lineage 2, winning virtual weapons in the fantasy role-playing game and selling their online loot to people in the United States who did not have time to play as many hours to arm their characters. Many of the players chose to play as a female dwarf, a class in the game that can more easily win treasure on solo missions. And so other players began killing all dwarfs in the game, often adding anti-Chinese slurs in the chat section of the game as they did, says Ms. Nakamura.

“What happened was that female dwarfs become an unplayable race” in the game, she said. “They basically became a racial minority,” she added, “with the same status as immigrant workers—they become a race, which is an interesting thing.”

“Race doesn’t happen because of biology—it happens because of culture,” she concluded.

W. James Au, author of the book The Making of Second Life, said online games and forums where participants are anonymous seem to be growing more slowly these days, and the most popular networks, including Facebook, match users to their offline identities. When anonymity disappears, people are generally more civil. “The shift to real identities online helps get rid of racism,” he said.

All of the participants on the panel, including the moderator, Jeff Yang, a blogger for the San Francisco Chronicle, said the topic of race online is rarely discussed, despite frequent instances of hate speech in online environments. “The topic is talked about less than it should be in talking about the power of digital media,” he told the audience when introducing the panel.

In an interview after the session, Ms. Nakamura, who co-edited a new book due out in a few weeks called Race After the Internet, said that more attention to the issue has been paid lately, as part of discussions of cyberbullying.

What would it take to draw a broader discussion of the issue?

“There has to be a high-profile killing probably—I hate to say that,” she said. “It has to be a big media event.”

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  • http://www.facebook.com/wwritter Will Ritter

    Wow!

  • http://twitter.com/epistemicfail Paul

    Nakamura’s conclusion regarding the female dwarves is unpersuasive. If racism exists, then there should be racism between all classes within the game, not just the dwarves. The reason that players are angry is because people using the dwarves were direct participants in an ecosystem of cheating (paying for characters). One could make the same case for the anger against bankers. People are angry at the system of cheating. The epithets are an afterthought caused by the cheating.

    Pay more attention to the cheating. Pay more attention to what makes people angry. You’d be far more persuasive with your “racism” theory if players used hate language after acts of benevolence.

    But I doubt you’d find that. Why? Because different skin color, just by itself, is not a big enough motivating factor by itself. It’s the culture of one group that makes another group angry.

    IT’S THE CULTURE, NOT THE RACE. Citing racism as a cause in 2011 is intellectually lazy.

  • mbelvadi

    I completely agree, and would add that the researchers/authors are using the term “racism” when what they’re talking about is “discrimination”. Just like using the word “theft” as a simplistic replacement for “copyright infringement” in order to invoke a moral judgment towards a behavior one disagrees with, the use of the term “racism” instead of “discrimination” is surely a deliberate attempt to immediately win the reader to the author’s side. Discrimination against people who are perceived as literally “gaming the system”, like your example of bankers, is neither illegal nor as morally unambiguous in our culture as “racism” is.

  • midevilprof

    I think these two posts have missed the author’s point that (white American?) players of the game seem to have realized that players from China tended to use the female dwarf characters, and that the campaign against dwarves included anti-Chinese language. Players were/are not “racist” against dwarves, they’re racist against Chinese players. That’s the point of the article. Let’s not confuse the virtual world of dwarves, humans, and monsters with the real world of prejudice and unwarranted hostility against people of other ethnicities. If “all the cheaters” are Chinese, then Chinese are cheaters, while “we” (white Americans?) are honest gamers. There is little positive to come from such a mindset. The follow-up point, that racist activity diminishes when anonymity is removed, strikes me as perhaps more interesting.

  • robert_wyatt

    I am pretty sure Kang and mbelvadi have never played COD Black Ops (or perhaps any online game with chat). Once you have heard the comments (over and over), there is absolutely no question about it being racism.

  • drjeff

    Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

    They’re aggravated at the Chinese players, because they associate them with cheating! Is it common to see anti-Japanese, anti-Korean, or anti-Thai comments? Maybe anti-Mongolian or anti-Tibetan? It’s not different from the anti-Nigerian comments I often hear made by people sick of getting spam for scams. This INCLUDES people from Africa complaining! If it were people from Oklahoma were “messing up” the game, you’d be seeing a lot of anti-Okie comments.

    People who “look through the lens of race,” to borrow a phrase seen often in the course catalog, often have trouble seeing anything BUT race. Other factors are at work in this world, as difficult as it may be for you to believe or see.

    It is possible that racism is a factor in what’s going on, but from the information provided, there’s no evidence that it’s so, unless you start by ASSUMING it’s the explanation. Of course, there will always be a few on “the tail end of the curve,” but most people are not such troglodytes as you seem to imagine.

  • gplm2000

    Typical liberal racist: “This has a familiar ring. Rich whites are able to induce poor whites to hate poor blacks because the poor whites lack the sophistication to understand that the poor, black and white, are being exploited by the rich.” In liberal college-land there are certain truisms: 1. the white guys always wear black hats and, 2. rich whites guys wear a black hat and black shirt. Are these the same guys that pay most college salaries and support endowments as well as the athletic teams? Just asking.

  • seveirn

    It’s really hard to buy this woman’s data when she doesn’t even have the game information right, there is no dwarves in Diablo 2 and the only female characters are the Amazon and Assassin.

    While there is definetly a racist nature to the comments people make online, they are generally against ALL races.

    along with that, what she claims to be targeted attacking probably isn’t as she doesn’t even have the right info.

    If she were to say maybe be talking about world of warcraft, she would know that people in the US can only play on the US SERVERS and people in China on the CHINESE servers.

    Diablo 2 works the same way as it is a localized server network meaning you won’t play against people in China unless you’re on the chinese/asian servers.

    I hate to say it but this woman needs to look at the overall picture and notice that racism in forms like this is more about the game and the character than it is about the players race.

    While they might spawn racist comments it probably comes more from other things like their name or language they speak in.

    She really needs to do a better job.

  • drjeff

    Black hats? Black shirts? Why use “black” for “bad”? You’re obviously racist!

    Note to liberal-arts faculty: please pretend you have a sense of humor when reading this post.

  • 11272784

    “Race doesn’t happen because of biology—it happens because of culture…” No, not in this game. This is tactics, not racism. Given the way that video games work, this is an easily foreseeable outcome and it makes tactical sense.

  • r1234

    Seems like generalizing the bad behavior of some individuals to all members of their race or ethnicity, and then specifically targeting all perceived members of that race or ethnicity with slurs and epithets, is a clear example of racism. Tellingly, according to this article, the epithets were not against the act of item/gold farming, but instead against that player’s perceived (real-world) race. It’s not the same as anger against bankers, because that anger would be about what a person *does* and not about some part of their identity.

  • bmljenny

    It seems some people are still perfectly happy using their real identities online in conjunction with racism. Witness (alleged) UCLA student Alexandra Wallace… http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/03/alexandra_wallace_ucla_girl_rant_asians_in_the_library.php

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-Wagoner/65701314 Mark Wagoner

    Without sounding like an uber nerd, check your research Jeff. There are no female dwarf classes in Diablo 2.

  • drjeff

    “[w]ithout sounding like an uber nerd”

    Sorry, that ship has sailed, and you were not on it. There’s no way to correct a factual error about an MMORPG without sounding like an uber nerd. Fact of life. (Not even sure it’s even possible to use “MMORPG” without.)

  • seveirn

    Add another comment, if this is about WOW, Female dwarves are not picked that often due to their ineffective bonuses that the characters receive. While that may be a form of racism, digital race is a choice and therefore something different.

    She should also look at the genders most commonly picked and see if the internet is also sexist. I think she’d find lively results there.

  • dr_rosenrosen

    Problems here with the Diablo 2 analysis. First, as others have noted, there is no female dwarf character: the three female character classes are the Amazon, Assassin, and Sorceress. Second, finding “treasure” is a not function of character class but rather of the amount of “+Magic Find” equipment a character wears–all classes have the potential to be very good at magic finding. Third, the only character who has innate “skills” used specifically to find “treasure” is the large, white, bald (and male) barbarian.

    I’ll admit this is pretty geeky, but playing Diablo 2 got me through my dissertation: 2 hours writing, 2 hours playing, eat and sleep. Wash, rinse. repeat… :)

  • http://twitter.com/mjrineer21 Mike Rineer

    “New forms of online racism are emerging as video games add audio-chat features”

  • http://twitter.com/jryoung Jeff

    Thanks for the help Mark. The game should have been Lineage 2, not Diablo 2. We’ve fixed in the story now.

  • http://hereliesandalusia.blogspot.com/ Tomás

    Actually Kang, I think that pretending racism isn’t an issue in 2011 is intellectually lazy.

  • chroniclebarnacle

    What? This is a little silly. As I understand the game it is a matter of survival not racism. I don’t agree with the racist comments the gamers leave and maybe that is the real issues- not the killing off of the female dwarfs. I must say- we have become a bit touchy. ….and drjeff- please!

  • mbelvadi

    You are correct that I’ve never played any of these games. I was responding to the claim in the article about the female dwarves themselves being a “race”. Explicitly anti-Chinese chat speech is of course unambiguously racism. But it’s not really a “new form” of racism as the article title proclaims has been identified. I was speaking to the article’s claim that something beyond “normal” racism had emerged in these environments. Discriminating against dwarves because you think they’re ruining the spirit of the game by turning the competition into a commercial enterprise (at the player level – obviously the whole thing is commercial at the server level) regardless of what “race” of real people are behind those characters is not racism. It’s very unfortunate, but not uncommon in America, that the expression of that rather complex frustration gets translated verbally into a form that the average Joe is more familiar with. This is pretty much the same problem we see with many members of the Tea Party – they actually have some pretty legitimate objections to a complex economic system that is “cheating” them in real life, but they lack the verbal sophistication to express it adequately, so what comes out of their mouths (or fingers) is the only kind of vitriol that they know how to verbalize, the racial slur. It’s like the impulse to call anyone you don’t like “a Hitler” where there’s clearly no attempt to engage in a substantive analysis of analogous beliefs or behaviors.

  • http://www.facebook.com/darle.balfoort Darle Wright Balfoort

    for all you gamers out there.

  • http://twitter.com/epistemicfail Paul

    I like how you and seven other people did not comprehend my post. Of course racism is an issue. But the days of burning crosses and hanging people from trees SOLELY BECAUSE OF SKIN COLOR? No, that’s long gone.

    Cheaters make people mad. Mad people want revenge. Mad people say/do racist things.
    If people didn’t cheat, players wouldn’t want revenge.

    You show me where a bunch of Chinese players are playing normally. And THEN see if everyone gangs up on these Chinese people JUST BECAUSE of their race.

    This is not 1962 and this is not Jim Crow. People are legitimately angry and angry people sometimes do stupid things. Those Chinese players totally deserved to be killed (online). BECAUSE THEY ARE CHEATERS.

  • bscmath78

    marktropolis, previously I questioned Professor Vedder’s belief in campus CFOs who I felt were likely to be Business Majors or MBAs.  I referred to his apparent appreciation of “Academically Adrift” in one of my posts in that thread:

    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/campus-cfos-are-right/29787#comment-246697433

    I also noted that Professor Vedder had written elsewhere, “It is clear that business majors typically study and learn little, but party a lot.” which also caused me to doubt the wisdom of believing campus CFOs.

  • bscmath78

    If one takes marktropolis’s comments and the report related to “Academically Adrift” at face value, it appears that teachers, schools, majors and colleges don’t make much of a difference in actual learning of critical thinking, complex analysis or anything of lasting educational value for 80-90% of students.  This is ignoring the practical benefits of paper credentials, certification, formal qualifications, status, prestige, etc.

    The educational factions are quite adept at providing excuses, but whether it is NCLB or charter schools lots of money gets spent to provide nothing of lasting value (excluding random variations) for 80-90% of students.  They do seem to succeed in “pump and dump” parrot training that improves results on dumbed-down standardized tests that tell nothing of lasting real value. Teachers do seem adept at gaming the system even if they don’t engage in blatant cheating. 

    SAT/ACT were originally deliberately picked by universities based on the claim that schooling did not affect them (beyond the the 3Rs), they were supposedly curriculum independent.  They supposedly provided a level playing field no matter how bad the local school was. They supposedly measured talent or merit no matter how poor the teaching.

    marktropolis wrote, “. . . the existing data indicate that TFA – and other alternatively certified
    teachers – are no better or worse than traditionally trained teachers.”  This is most telling.  If it is true, then why not get rid of “traditionally trained teachers” as quickly as possible?  Things would be no worse. ;-)

    There are a lots of retirees, involuntary retirees, under-employed and unemployed who with 3 months of training would be better than most of the teachers that I had.  Many parents are already well trained from doing the homework and projects of their children as well as tutoring their children.  It is also very interesting that children in families above a certain economic level typically improve their knowledge and skills during summer vacation.  They get better without teachers!  Maybe teachers are bad for 50% of children after the 5th grade if the child has learned the 3Rs well? ;-)

    50 or more years ago it required far less in formal qualifications to teach in school or in a college.  The great increase in requirements for formal education, formal qualifications and formal credentials seems to correlate with stagnation or decline with no evidence of improvements in long term education results for 80-90% of students. Sputnik-aided efforts like PSSC, Chem Study and the New Math were defeated by the schools and teachers. 

    This supports the view that the real purpose of the later part of K-12 is simply as a holding pen, imprisoning children so they bother adults less and don’t compete in the job market thus keeping down the unemployment rate.  A smart 5th grader (as demonstrated on the TV show) is smarter than a lot of adults.  Many adults know this and don’t want the competition. ;-)

  • marktropolis

    You may want to see how many graduates of the various medical schools in the Virgin Islands are practicing at your local hospital. And I didn’t raise the put to defend ed schools per se, but merely point out that there are a variety of factors that come into play when determining entry and exit requirements. And given the fact that we *still* don’t really know how to measure effective teaching, this is all rather academic anyway. And I say that knowing that there are school districts across the country that are banking on the use of value-added models to gauge teacher quality – at the same time that the folks who actually know how those systems work keep telling everyone that you should use them for that purpose. At least not now. But I digress. A bit.

    Yes, Stanford has a world-class teacher prep program. The put out about 20 a year (rough guess). UC Northridge puts out about 2,000. If you want UC Northridge to start looking like Stanford, you better start getting more money in the state coffers to pay for it. It’s not going to come out off tuition.

  • marktropolis

    Just what I need: an army drill instructor teaching my 3rd grader. 

    I’m not a big fan of some certification requirements, but I understand their purpose. Just because you know math doesn’t mean you can teach it. Do I want some special forces sharp shooter who spent the last 9 months sitting on a mountain teaching your kid social studies?

  • bscmath78

    The careful reader would have noticed that I started off with, “If one takes marktropolis’s comments and the report related to ‘Academically Adrift’ at face value”.

    They would have remembered that I don’t take “Academically Adrift” at face value and have questioned it in part because of the lack of much difference observed between college majors or between college selectivity.  This does not preclude the possibility that nothing really makes a significant difference.  Which leads one to wonder if nothing makes a significant difference then why waste the time and money?  This is the challenge to all the various education factions and special interest groups.  Of course, if you don’t actually care about making a difference for children and students, you will ignore the challenge.

    I guess political footballs are much more fun and much more profitable.

  • dqualters

    Who should educate the educators?  Those who understand how people learn, what motivates learners, how to be a reflective practitioner for continuous improvement, how to create a learning environment that begins with knowledge and expands to critical thinking about that knowledge, how to give feedback to learners that increases learning not shuts it down, those who understand the value of the affective domain in the classroom, those who can step back to their consciously competent state and teach from there.. and a continuing endless list…….. If knowing a subject was all it took to be an educator then anyone with content knowledge and a degree could do it.  Think of the great teachers in your life, sure they knew their subject but they knew how to help you know their subject and most importantly they understood you as a person with great potential and cared if you learned.

    So let’s stop bashing and blaming education schools and think of a way to increase their value to make all our educators great teachers.

  • bscmath78

    marktropolis, just because you have a teaching certification doesn’t mean you can or should teach math. If you fear Math you will teach your fear to the children.  

    It would have been interesting to have the front-line combat veteran Paul Fussell teach social studies.  He would later write “The Boys’ Crusade: The American Infantry in Northwestern Europe, 1944-1945.”  So it is unlikely that school authorities would approve of what he might have said , which may explain why he became a professor.

  • bscmath78

    dqualters, you wrote, “. . . to make all our educators great teachers.” This is a convenient fantasy that has been promoted for a long time without results.  It seems as likely a prospect as making all of us the next Richard Feynman. 

    Which is interesting, since Richard Feynman was considered a great teacher — by his peers.  But it appears he was a great teacher of just graduate students and other professors.  He considered that he failed in his one course teaching undergraduates.  The common view (one source disputed this after his death) is that many Caltech undergrads deserted his course, replaced by grad students and professors. He also felt doubts because his graduate students did not get Nobel Prizes.  He felt Oppenheimer and Sommerfeld had done better jobs with their graduate students.  None of them had Education degrees.  Then there is the issue of the “Feynman effect”:
    http://books.google.ca/books?id=7vcjIbuQbaQC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=%22feynman+effect%22+%22is+the+supposed+evidence%22&source=bl&ots=Ed9gtkpWJN&sig=7Q86VE39EoANx5GXIjEs6pwnTLU&hl=en&ei=8Zp7TvTnDaPW0QGvhKClAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22feynman%20effect%22%20%22is%20the%20supposed%20evidence%22&f=false

  • bscmath78

    Are you referring to his February 14, 2011 article that focused on the handling of the null hypothesis testing and CLA measurement error?  I started commenting on it here:
    http://chronicle.com/article/Academically-Adrift-a/126371/#comment-156687418

    The whole thread of comments is very interesting. Even more interesting is that I have seen no evidence of any rebuttal of any of the issues raised by Alexander Astin or the commenters.

    Or are you referring to something newer?  If so then please provide the URL.

  • dreamman

    Are there too many law schools or medical schools or business schools? Why is it that people who have gone to school for 12 or more years think they know how to teach? If it’s merely a matter of going to school then I should also be able to get a medical degree because I’ve been going to the doctor all of my life so I know the protocol.

    I am a teacher educator now after teaching in both public and private schools for eight years. Teaching continues to be the fall back career “I don’t know what I so to do so I know I’ll teach for a while.” Anyone who wants to teach should first get a B.A. or B.S in the subject they want to teach then get a teaching degree. If you are going to teach you need to know and understand how children, pre teens, teenagers or adults learn. You need to know who you are teaching and you need to know HOW to impart information in a why which is understandable to your students so that they learn. Most importantly you need to have the mindset that all children CAN learn. Teaching is part art and part science there are some people who should never be allowed anywhere near a classroom especially one with children and there are people whose hearts are in the right place, but should consider another career other than teaching.

    Yes the standards for teaching need to be more rigous I can’t you tell the number of people who claimed to be “premed” at the university where I earned my B.A. Schools of education also need to be flexible and not depend solely on GPA and GRE scores to allow for much needed diversity sometimes people with the  highest GPAs are not the best teacher candidates because they don’t know how to make information meaningful for their students.

    Teacher candidates need two years of training then a full year not just a quarter or twelve weeks student teaching then they should intern for a year. Give them a small salary while they intern with an capable mentor. It takes three years before teachers hit their stride. Learning to teach while you are teaching is not optimal for the teacher or the students. The reason why the turnover rate is so high for teachers is 1) sometimes their training and their knowledge of the subject is not sufficient 2) the pay is too low for what teachers are asked to do 3) they never should have been accepted into the college of education in the first place. I could write a book on the reasons why people say they want to teach from “My boyfriend and I are in the same Spanish class so I help him with his Spanish” to “I want to have babies.” Teaching is a profession and needs to be treated as such and the pay should be in line with what other professionals make otherwise anyone could simply go to the McCollege of Education and get their teaching license and truly make it to where anyone can teach.

    I work hard and my classes are not easy and my students don’t like me while they are in the M. Ed program as my SEIs will show. The students who were most critical of me are the ones who come back after they have been teaching for a year and tell me how much they learned from my classes. Not all teachers educators are incompetent nor are all schools of education a sham.

  • richardtaborgreene

    The above bitchy article is grossly unfair.   

    Teachers in the USA deal with such LOW quality parents and kids that getting them to not kill each other is a major daily accomplishment.    In East Asia parents POWERFULLY push learning on their kids, every every every every every single hour of each day.  ANY hour not dedicated ONLY to study gets the 3rd degree from BOTH parents—what do YOU think this world is like, stupid kid, if you fall behind in math, in ten years you will be servant to everyone around you earning on tenth what they earn and blah blah blah.   American teachers get tens of millions of parents and kids who are at best blaze about learning if not demonically opposed to it because it makes conservatives liberals.  

  • sci_case

    So Vedder gets this piece in CHE by rehearsing arguments critics typically make against ed. schools, and tacking on an anecdote that despite his own extreme views, he has some common ground with an ed. school dean.

    He doesn’t seem to be adding much to the conversation here, except that at least some ed. school faculty are critically engaged in making those schools better.

  • bscmath78

    In “The Boys’ Crusade”, Paul Fussell is critical of the military training/education received by the combat infantry. One is sometimes left with the impression that he felt this “education” was often useless or counter-productive in the slaughter yards of 44-45.

  • cwm4c

    bscmath,

    see also the book “Wrong” by Scientist David Freeman.  He also documents why almost every expert, including those in Science, business, and pretty much every walk of life, continually get it wrong.  Business/Management don’t have a monopoly on bad education or thinking.

  • cwm4c

    No, but you might like my colleague at my university, who is a retired Colonel, with 4 Master’s degrees in history, education, political science, and math, and a PhD in International relations/Political Science teaching social studies (or Math).  Oh, while in the military he was a guest lecturer at Harvard, Princeton, and 3 state flagships also.  There are plenty like him with bachelors and advanced degrees in the military who might have done a little more than “sit on a mountain.”  Did you just sit in an office or classroom?  Of course not.

  • dpmccain

    Thank you.  I freely admit I was a marginal undergraduate student (many moons ago).  I spent many years in retail and wholesale management before deciding to enter the “family business” which is teaching.  I passed the old “real” CBEST in CA (it took me two times) and when complaints were lodged that the test was too difficult, the test was “modified” so that more people could pass.  This was the tip of the iceberg.  I was hired on an intern credential with a district supported program, but when I was “exited” from the school because the new principal needed a place for someone who wanted to return…I was told I would have to enter (on my own) on academic probation even though I had classes through the same university (under the supported program).  Did I charge racism, bias, or any other victicratic excuse for marginal academic performance in my undergraduate studies?  Nope.  I entered the school of education on academic probation. 

    After one quarter, I was admitted clear…because I worked.  Even though grades were inflated, professors remarked that I worked too hard and was too detailed on the assignments (hurting the self-esteem of classmates during presentations), I knew I needed to earn my way off of probation.

    There were only two instructors through the school of education who challenged, expected, demanded excellence…and they left the school.  Rumors circulated that they expected too much.  These were the professors who knew what real teaching would bring.  Not a classroom of shiny faces waiting to learn, and parents who attend conferences, and sat with their children during homework time.

    After completing one credential, I moved to the Master’s program, believing that my due diligence would be rewarded.  Nope, again.  I was shut out, along with some of my colleagues.  We were tagged “elitist” because of where we lived, rather than how we taught.  One of the Principals under whom I “toiled” remarked that teachers should live in the community where they teach.  Funny from someone who lived in an upper SES development, and was the Principal of a school in a low SES community. 

    Not able to secure an administrative position (and family tragedy resulted in temporary early retirement)…BIG MISTAKE leaving (but that’s another story) I decided I needed to augment my skills with a second teaching credential.  I sat for (in one sitting) the CSET English (five hours, four tests).. and I passed with darn good scores..althought ETS is not allowed to show how well you did numerically lest someone hire you on your scores. huh?  The scores are dots…1-4 of them showing how “well” you did.  THEN..figuring I had the bull by the horns, I applied for my second credential.  Even though I had taught English for 6 years (with combined disciplines) and two 8 month long-term substitute positions, (secondary).  I was required to enter a school of education and take a 4 credit course in teaching pedagogy.  There were 8 students in the class, one dropped to go into nursing, and the professor, who may have been a darn good public school teacher seemed  so beaten down that class was often rather dysfunctional.  BUT, there were reading assignments that were graded with detail, and overall, aside from self proclaimed “mental instability” of the instructor, I learned a great deal  He is no longer teaching through the school of education. One of the assistant professors through the school of education just lost her teaching position due to blatant and repeated plagiarism.  Great…our suspicions in that class turned out to be accurate…This doesn’t make the school of education look great, does it?

    I just scrolled back through my paragraphs, and I seem to be on a rant.  Do schools of education teach the reality of public education?  Has student teaching (now called professional practicum) reduced new teachers to fetch and carry slaves for “mentor” teachers who send them to the copy and coffee machine?  I dropped out of a program (see the plagiarizing professor) where student teaching was mandated,  but because I could not financially commit to a 7 hour day for 18 weeks with no pay (the mentor to whom I had been assigned whined excessively in her emails)…that was enough for me.  The school argues that placement of  teachers is difficult, and student teaching may be valuable, but why not mentor teachers as they substitute?  Compensation is there, for the most part the lesson plans are adjustable, and if you want to be thrown into the fire..substitute teaching is the way to learn if you have what it takes to be a teacher in contemporary schools. 

    Having just spent over two years in a for-profit school (now there’s a story), I witnessed that with the current economy, alot of MBAs decided to teach…but not having credentials, and not wanting to take/pass the CBEST, they flock to the for-profit schools…Now there is something to watch.  Education driven by metrics, people who think a graduate degree, syllabus, and a textbook makes you a teacher, and that teaching is easy…all you have to do is mark students present and give them A’s for participation, and of course, they will all do the assigned homework.  hahahaha…. But just try and tell those folks that teaching is an art, to be crafted over time.   You will be laughed out of there. 

    Back to graduate school I go. . A PhD is looking good..and gee, I am only 59.  Sigh.

  • dreamman

    Dear dpnmccain it appears as if you were treated unfairly to say the least. I must disagree with what you say about substitute teaching. Substitute teaching is not the best way to learn how to teach in fact it may be the worst. I do not advocate the sink or swim method of learning how to teach as I said I would not want someone who does not know what they are doing in the classroom practicing on my child or any child until they did. Would you want a substitute doctor or a substitute lawyer? I think not. To improve teaching the myth that anyone can teach must be destroyed. 

  • dpmccain

    I know a great many substitute teachers who are frustrated because they were denied a contracted teaching position within a particular district, but when they substituted, they found classrooms where the instructors were often absent for dubious reasons (yes, classified and certificated talk, and I once substituted in an economics class because the instructor didn’t want to miss the Ethan Allen furniture sale). 

    Perhaps I could have phrased my argument differently.  If someone is going to student teach, perhaps he/she should be compensated at substitute pay, even though the contracted teacher remains nearby.  I have a vague recollection though that Student teaching was sometimes called practice teaching.  In order to develop mastery, one must practice.  But perhaps I am splitting hairs. 

    Further, I have substituted for some absolutely inept teachers who gained (and retained) their position due to nepotism or general favortism.  I remember a first year teacher, the daughter-in law-of the Asst Superindentent.  The woman was dreadul on so many levels, and her students beside themselves.  Several asked me when “she” could be absent again, and when I could come back.  This isn’t because I played games or gave them candy…I taught, both from the text and from previous experience.  The teacher’s contract was renewed (like there was ever a question), and a few other new teachers who struggled, but were not connected, were let go.

    Yes, the myth that anyone can teach should be destroyed,  but it is perpetuated by the belief that anyone with a degree can teach. It’s right up there with you need to be young to understand the young.  Which may explain why I wasn’t able (although I still try) to return to public education after a 5 year absence.  But who knows?

    Some of the most brilliant people I know were the worst teachers, because they didn’t understand what it was like not to “get” something on the first go round.  Those of use who struggled with the “logic” of abstract mathematics could teach it as a lesson in tenacious resolve (I still don’t understand why we need the Distributive Property) but I could teach it with passionate enthusiasm. 

    Thank you for your supportive comments.  I do believe I have been wronged (on so many levels), but somewhere there’s a book or an article that needs to be written, but first, I really do need to find a job.  Substitute teaching I guess…and graduate school at night. Huzzah.

    oh..many of these folks who wander into teaching as an after thought insist that students call them Professor…to my mind a violation on so many levels.

  • tardigrade

    ” I have to agree with “segads” that there should be no specialization at the undergraduate level.”

    Yeah, yeah.  What’s good in your mind is good for everyone.  People shouldn’t have goals or motivations before they get to college, they should just be blank slates for a bunch of others’ ideas, because others’ semi-informed opinions on what makes a good education will best prepare them for real education.

    I realize what I wrote is extreme and an exaggeration for most, but that is what your ideals come off as.  If it wasn’t for the jack### liberal requirements I *MIGHT* have graduated with a B.S. in something less than 16 years.  University is unsuited for those who know what they want to do and have known this since they were elementary school kids.  It’s unsuited for the mono-focused and mono-driven.

    This attitude of “breadth” did nothing more than reinforce my worst stress-relieving, dissipative, escapist tendencies (studying psych or reading philosophy instead of studying what the course I’m enrolled in requires).  What’s worse is that I now have a “liberal education” thanks to these dissipative tendencies, but now don’t have the MFing credit hours indicating I’m overqualified for your further stress-inducing (thanks to its dumbed down nature and socializing aspects) 100-level required course.  Nice job with your good intentions oh Liberal Artists and Liberal Scientists.

    *MIGHT* = Have to be honest here, there’s enough wrong from my POV with university (and primary/secondary) school in the US I might not have made it in under 16 years even without the liberal requirements.

  • tardigrade

    cwm4c below mentioned the book “Wrong”:

    “What have you learned about bad advice?

    Bad advice tends to be simplistic. It tends to be definite, universal and certain. But, of course, that’s the advice we love to hear.

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1998644,00.html#ixzz1YzBek58Y

  • bscmath78

    cwm4c wrote
    “bscmath,

    see also the book “Wrong” by Scientist David Freeman. He also documents why almost every expert, including those in Science, business, and pretty much every walk of life, continually get it wrong.  Business/Management don’t have a monopoly on bad education or thinking.”

    Unfortunately for you, I decided to check your facts.  What I find is that “Wrong” is actually written by David H. Freedman NOT “Freeman”.  And according to his Amazon bio he is an editor, writer and author, but no mention of “Scientist”. 

    Also the word “Scientists” in the title (“Wrong: Why experts* keep failing us–and how to know when not to trust them *Scientists, finance wizards, doctors, relationship gurus, celebrity CEOs, … consultants, health officials and more”) is kind of broad and these days includes social, life, medical, pharmaceutical sciences and various others who typically have a vested ideological, policy or financial interest in providing certain answers.

    Plus even in public school (at least back 40 years ago) you were taught that the story of the real sciences is about error, after error, after error with some of the true greats working as patent clerk (Einstein), abbot (Mendel), diplomat (Leibniz), captain’s companion (Darwin) or hunter collector (Alfred Russel Wallace).

    No doubt my posts are full of errors especially spelling, grammar, punctuation and stylistic.

    I haven’t read the book, but I agree that “Business/Management don’t have a monopoly on bad education or thinking.”   But as long as entry-level management consultants get several times the pay of physics postdocs there is a need for people to read books like:
     
    * “The Management Myth: Why the Experts Keep Getting it Wrong”
    * “House of Lies: How Management Consultants Steal Your Watch and Then Tell You the Time : a true story”
    * “Consulting Demons: Inside the Unscrupulous World of Global Corporate Consulting”  

    But for those interested in some of the errors in the real sciences there are:

    * “Einstein’s Mistakes: The Human Failings of Genius”
    * “Einstein’s Luck: The Truth behind Some of the Greatest Scientific Discoveries”
    * “Leaps in the Dark: The Making of Scientific Reputations”
    * “How the Laws of Physics Lie” which seemed to require remembering Hamiltonians, Lagrangians and too much other physics.

  • bscmath78

    cwm4c wrote in an earlier post:
    “bscmath,

    see also the book “Wrong” by Scientist David Freeman. He also documents why almost every expert, including those in Science, business, and pretty much every walk of life, continually get it wrong.  Business/Management don’t have a monopoly on bad education or thinking.”

    Unfortunately for you, I decided to check your facts.  What I find is that “Wrong” is actually written by David H. Freedman NOT “Freeman”.  And according to his Amazon bio he is an editor, writer and author, but no mention of “Scientist”. 

    Also the word “Scientists” in the title (“Wrong: Why experts* keep failing us–and how to know when not to trust them *Scientists, finance wizards, doctors, relationship gurus, celebrity CEOs, … consultants, health officials and more”) is kind of broad and these days includes social, life, medical, pharmaceutical sciences and various others who typically have a vested ideological, policy or financial interest in providing certain answers. 

    Plus even in public school (at least back 40 years ago) you were taught that the story of the real sciences is about error, after error, after error with some of the true greats working as patent clerk (Einstein), abbot (Mendel), diplomat (Leibniz), captain’s companion (Darwin) or hunter collector (Alfred Russel Wallace).

    No doubt my posts are full of errors especially spelling, grammar, punctuation and stylistic.

    I haven’t read the book, but I agree that “Business/Management don’t have a monopoly on bad education or thinking.”   But as long as entry level management consultants get several times the pay of physics postdocs there is a need for people to read books like:
     
    * “The Management Myth: Why the Experts Keep Getting it Wrong”
    * “House of Lies: How Management Consultants Steal Your Watch and Then Tell You the Time : a true story”
    * “Consulting Demons: Inside the Unscrupulous World of Global Corporate Consulting”  

    But for those interested in some of the errors in the real sciences there are:

    * “Einstein’s Mistakes: The Human Failings of Genius”
    * “Einstein’s Luck: The Truth behind Some of the Greatest Scientific Discoveries”
    * “Leaps in the Dark: The Making of Scientific Reputations”
    * “How the Laws of Physics Lie” which seemed to require remembering Hamiltonians, Lagrangians and too much other physics.

  • bscmath78

    tardigrade how do these fit in your model?
    - “Look before you leap”
    - “Haste makes waste”
    - “A stitch in time, saves nine”
    - “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”
    - “What is hateful to you, do not do to another”
    - “When you are in a hole, stop digging”

    This is not the kind of “simplistic” advice that people actually “love to hear” or often choose to act on.

    Plus what do you think about the errors in cwm4c’s post that I comment on here:

    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/who-should-educate-the-educators/30362#comment-319689428

  • cwm4c

    bscmath78,

    Not “unfortunate for me”–I am actually agreeing with you and providing another book that documents many other areas of this world where experts get it wrong.  Sorry for the typo on Freedman, but you figured it out.  I would recommend you read the book–I’ve utilized it and a few of the ones you mentioned to teach the point that experts, in general, are not

  • RedWell

    cwm4c: Thanks for discriminating against grad students coming from the majority of programs in which there are clear disincentives against pedagogical training. I agree that teaching quality should matter at R1 institutions just as anywhere else, but your approach seems oversimplified.

  • cwm4c

    I’d argue that almost all universities have disincentives against pedagogical training.  We have to start somehow to attack the problem

  • bscmath78

    cwm4c, thanks for the Sept 26 clarification.  I don’t get the Reply button for your post, so I am trying here.

  • bscmath78
  • bscmath78

    tardigrade, thank you for taking the time to provide your assessment. You have provided thoughtful potential downsides to the proverbs/advice I listed. 

    It is certainly true that there are some people who want to be lied to, want to hear the lie right now and do not want to wait to hear anything else.   And there are those who just want you to agree with them immediately or give them money immediately.  So in a bureaucracy or other such circumstances the items I listed may doom you. 

    I have let my personal tastes bias my choices. I was going to write: I still think that considering these ideas typically involves less risk. But upon reflection, I realize that I can’t say that, since I don’t know the various situations, people and circumstances. 

    I listed the items that leaped to mind.  No other items leap to mind at the moment.

  • tardigrade

    Thanks.  Like cwm4c I agree with many of your points too.

    “I have let my personal tastes bias my choices.”

    I think probably every living creature has done this at some point, and usually pretty frequently. It’s hard not to, but at least we humans can become aware of our biases. :)

  • juliewhite

    It’s great that your college offers that pathway.  My concern is that many do not, at least not in the capacity that may be needed to serve these students.  Perhaps that will change, but I’m skeptical given the current policy and funding environment.  I would love to be wrong about that!

  • yellow1

    I worry about this as well, especially since several 2 year schools in my same system/state do not have their own GED/Adult Ed programs. Those are typically ran through the local county, so students who aren’t officially students yet have to rely on resources in the colleges’ service areas. It’s tricky. I think we do a good job with Adult Ed/GED, honestly, at my college since our incentive for their passing is their ability to enroll. It’s built in retention.

    Like you, I am skeptical. I also think this may be a back door change to save money, obviously, but I think it’s also a roundabout way of keeping some students in HS.

  • mrichbe1

    Once again, this is just a move by the Republican Party to add to the ranks of the disenfranchised. When will we ever learn that the Repbulican Party has never done anything for the working class since Abraham lincoln. He said unequivically that if he could keep slavery and save the union then he would do so. We as working people better wake up!

  • mrichbe1

    All that would be necessary is for the granting institution to put in place requirements that a student could only progress so far without completing his/her GED. Then the process could resume, but don’t block them out just to reserve funding for those who have already completed.

  • juliewhite

    Interesting idea. Or, financial aid policy could put those requirements into place, so that it wouldn’t vary by institution.  I’d have to think more about the pros and cons, but I certainly think both ideas are something to explore!

  • juliewhite

    I would like to point out, however, that I don’t see anyone from the Democratic side speaking out about this either…

  • juliewhite

    You know, I’ve seen other people write that this is about keeping students in high school.  My on-the-job experience indicates that many of the ATB students are returning adults, well beyond the age of high school.  BUT I don’t know what the data indicates, or if data is even available on that.    I will have to explore that more.

  • yellow1

    Yeah, but once you admit a student, it’s really hard to stop any good progress. I sort of like our situation at my college where ATB students are run through GED/Adult Ed programs.

  • yellow1

    Unfortunately, we have to constantly remind our legislators (not all, but plenty) that the average two year college student at our institution is about 26-28. This makes it tricky to worry too much at this point about if/when they dropped out of high school! Sadly, too many legislators think all college students, or at least 90% of those students, are 18-22 years old.

  • juliewhite

    Good point!

  • renellin

    I’ll never understand why access is spoken as if it is equal or equivalent to free. There is a growing number of people who feel if the government doesn’t pay for it, it is inaccessible. Thousands of people went to night school before the Feds started picking up the tab. The middle class has always been expected to pay for everything we’ve done. If you want the education, go for it anyway. Find a way and do it.

  • renellin

    Where did the Republican Party come from? I didn’t read anything about those pesky republicans in the article. Does the Republican Party run Obama’s administration? Why are people always throwing their own private political hate fests into otherwise ordinary intelligent discussions?

  • juliewhite

    The labor market has changed dramatically since the days “before the Feds started picking up the tab.”  Most of the people in this ATB population that I have met are working, but since it is harder than ever to find a decent-paying job without at least a high school diploma (preferably some post-secondary education or training), their wages are just enough to pay the bills, leaving little extra for tuition.

  • teprusa

    One of the issues not mentioned here are immigrants who perhaps graduated from high school in other countries, but are not able to access their high school degrees due to the time elapsed and/or the political insecurity of the country, or simply the fact that the college might not accept their high school degree. I realize that there are those who may think immigrants shouldn’t be receiving this aid, but many of these people have worked here legally for 20+ years, but have recently been laid off. I also work with refugees many of whom worked for our side in areas where we have been involved in military conflicts. Without financial aid, it will be very difficult for them to make new lives for themselves and support their families which is what they want to do more than anything.

  • teprusa

    TOEFL scores are required of international visa students, none of whom are eligible for federal financial aid.