Online learning enthusiasts could get a windfall of federal money under a $2-billion grant program that the Obama Administration described on Thursday. But how big the windfall will be—if it comes at all—remains unclear.
One thing is for sure: The four-year program, designed to expand job training at community colleges, signals a major endorsement of the movement to freely share learning materials on the Internet.
That movement took hold a decade ago with MIT’s plan to publish free online syllabi, lecture notes, and other content from all of its courses. With this program, run by the Labor Department, parts of the federal government are now embracing MIT’s radical idea as official policy—dangling what could be an unprecedented amount of money for more open courses.
“With $500-million available this year, this is easily one of the largest federal investments in open educational resources in history,” U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in a statement e-mailed to The Chronicle. Mr. Duncan’s agency is working with the Labor Department on the program.
So what specific tech goodies might the government invest in with all that money? Official announcements from the Labor Department and White House were short on details. But here’s what we can glean from a close look at the 53-page document that lays out the grant guidelines: The Obama administration is encouraging the development of high-quality immersive online-learning environments. It suggests courses with simulations, with constant feedback, and with interactive software that can tailor instruction and tutoring to individual students. It likes courses that students can use to teach themselves.
And it demands open access to everything: “All online and technology-enabled courses must permit free public use and distribution, including the ability to re-use course modules, via an online repository for learning materials to be established by the federal government.”
In other words, if a community college in Washington State gets a grant to build an aerospace program for workforce training, it would have to deposit all its digital stuff in an online library. Anybody who wants to use it would be able to download the content, and they would have full legal rights to reuse, revise, remix, or redistribute it, explained Cable Green, director of eLearning and open education at the Washington State Board for Community & Technical Colleges. That’s because the government is requiring that all work supported by the grants be made available under what’s known as a “Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License,” which Mr. Green described as “one of the most open content licenses that exists.”
Beth Noveck, a professor at New York Law School and former White House technology official, wrote that the openness requirement represented “a fundamental and laudable shift in how grants are made in government.”
If all of this discussion of openness and free online courses sounds familiar, it is. The Obama administration outlined a similar great course giveaway in 2009, a $500-million proposal influenced by work done in the Open Learning Initiative at Carnegie Mellon University. The online proposal was part of a $12-billion plan to improve community colleges, called the American Graduation Initiative, but that plan collapsed during negotiations over legislation to overhaul student aid and the nation’s health-care system.
The prospect that similar ideas could survive through this Labor Department program thrilled openness advocates like Mr. Green. To save students money on textbooks, his state is working on an ambitious program to develop low-cost, online instructional materials for community and technical colleges. The federal money could mean more choices of content that his colleges could review for adoption in their classes.
“That’s a windfall,” he said. “The sheer volume of openly licensed content is going to expand dramatically.”
How dramatically is unclear. Creative Commons fanned excitement online with a blog post headlined, “U.S. Department of Labor and Department of Education commit $2-billion to create open educational resources for community colleges and career training.” And Dave Cormier, a proponent of open education based at the University of Prince Edward Island, seized on that story to argue that the money “could end the textbook industry as we know it.”
But when The Chronicle forwarded the Creative Commons story to Sara Gast, a spokeswoman for the Education Department, she doused a little cold water on all the excitement. “The headline is inaccurate,” she said in an e-mail. “But at this point, as the solicitation phase is just beginning, we don’t know how much of the $2B (or even $500-million in the first year) will be spent on open educational resources.”
She added, “All of the intellectual property that is created as a result of the grants has to be shared as OERs, and it would be accurate to say that the money is available to fund open educational resources, but there is no guarantee all those funds—or even any of those funds—will be spent for that purpose. The applicants have to make their case that what they propose will help students finish college more reliably with market-ready skills, degrees and certificates. We think OERs will be an important part of that. But how much? We can’t say yet.”




69 Responses to $2-Billion Federal Program Could Be ‘Windfall’ for Open Online Learning
amnirov - January 24, 2011 at 10:49 am
That logo looks like a little dude with a briefcase hanging himself.
mrieger - January 24, 2011 at 11:51 am
Overall, a great concept with one exception. The article says that the federal government will create the online repository for the OER generated by the program. Why reinvent the wheel when such repositories exist? MERLOT (www.merlot.org) has been up and running for a decade. It contains over 27,000 peer-reviewed learning materials and has >90,000 members worldwide. This would spare $ for more/better grants to faculty.
library - January 24, 2011 at 1:23 pm
The aim of the grant is to generate free access materials that people can use to teach themselves at their own pace, i.e. programmed instruction. Automate the feedback, embed interactivity in the software, cut out the (need to pay) instructors, and call it learner-centered. The weaknesses of this technology were already evident in the 1970s. Let’s recall what we learned about it 30-40 years ago: 1. Programmed instruction can be used to help students with similar needs, interests and abilities. 2. The learning context, objectives, and materials need to be uniform and structured. 3. So it can be useful as a supplement to a course (like math homework assignments). Can it replace inter-personal instruction? In some circumstances, yes – up to a point – but there are a lot of hidden issues. For example, a course with the capacity to deal with human minds (even in limited contexts with structured materials) costs more than most people realize. Why? Because effective higher order learning demands complex approaches such as repetition, varied practice, discussion, individualized feedback and exercises. Consequently, most programmed instruction is only suitable for lower-order learning. Also, instead of teachers intervening and facilitating engagement, students bear the motivational responsibility for learning (including self-management) almost entirely. Thirdly, automated feedback cannot cover the multitude of challenges that humans encounter while learning, such as faulty or incomplete concepts, slips in applying procedures (for example when solving problems), similar problems presented in different ways, and transfer of learning from one problem to other problems or contexts. These diverse human issues multiply exponentially, and only a live instructor can deal with the eventualities. So good courses (contact and online) recognize the need for live instructors and for limiting class size.
tvollmer - January 24, 2011 at 7:17 pm
Speaking to Ms. Gast’s comments, we’ve amended our announcement (http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/26100). It now includes an update:
Where new learning materials are created using grant funds, those materials must be made available under CC BY. However, it is not a requirement that all the TAACCCT grant funds be spent on the creation of learning materials. We’ve also updated the title of this post to reflect this clarification, which before read “U.S. Department of Labor and Department of Education commit $2-billion to create open educational resources for community colleges and career training.”
For example, if a college hires tutors aligned with the intent of the TAACCCT program and pays them from those funds, then these “non-learning material interventions” wouldn’t necessarily be tied to open licensing because it does not involve the creation of any new educational resources.
Timothy Vollmer
Creative Commons
sthen - April 11, 2011 at 3:56 pm
In our case, we admittedly have a high turn around for adjuncts. We also do not host our own website. Therefore, the amount of changes needed semester by semester to the web hosts and designers would end up costing us more money than spendable.
I do appreciate you telling us you were thankful of the professional responses, and do take us seriously.
Honestly, none of us are ashamed of our credibility. We do have strict standards that must be met with the accreditation body as to who can teach what.
As I said, I am not about others, but frequently contacting the outsourced web person is not where we want our money spent. We never even considered it an issue.
director19 - April 11, 2011 at 4:39 pm
I work at a non profit college and have worked at for profits as well. We run on a thin line administratiively as opposed to the many admin people I have seen on many colege and university staffs. In my current college, we give a listing of all faculty credentials to every student that enrolls –it’s part of our enrollment agreement. My schools have always monitored the educational requirements imposed by each accreditation agency very closely in order to stay in compliance. Some colleges I’ve been associated with were obsessive about the standard–as they all should be.
Does every college, profit or non-profit keep the same standard? No, unfortunately!
cwinton - April 11, 2011 at 4:50 pm
It should be pointed out that accreditation simply means an institution has met minimal standards, and in and of itself indicates nothing more than a minimal quality level. I don’t consider it to be elitist to compare the relative worth of a Ph.D. from Johns Hopkins and one from one of the lesser lights, for-profit or not for-profit. Odds are the degree from Johns Hopkins is the far greater indicator of quality. Too many for-profits emphasize quick and easy (never mind the expense), which hardly speaks to being seriously concerned about quality of outcomes.
tgraham13 - April 11, 2011 at 4:52 pm
The GAO report was largely fabricated. It has been discredited, and rightly so. Some of those who produced it have been fired, although I suspect they were scapegoats for the real culprits. Apparently it is highly unusual for the GAO to participate in political dirty work, but it is well documented that it happened in this case. I would be grateful if the author would stop referring to the report as if it is an unimpeachable source. They made most of it up. You can watch the tapes.
The author’s first column on this subject suggested that for-profit schools don’t publish faculty credentials and therefore they are bad. This follow-up column admits that they do publish faculty credentials but not on their home-pages. The column is the equivalent of a Seinfeld episode: it’s a column about nothing.
For the real issue, I refer you to the most popular cartoon ever published in the Chronicle. It depicts a Venn diagram with (I’m paraphrasing) “the information colleges put on their websites” and “the information students are looking for on college websites” as the two data sets. They intersect only on the name of the college.
Students aren’t looking for faculty credentials. They are looking for the right programs, locations, student life, outcomes, costs and sports events, roughly in that order. Faculty credentials don’t make the list. Proprietary colleges and universities are simply more skilled than traditional institutions at putting the information that students actually want on their web-sites.
As my daughter says to me often, “Get with it, Pops!”
lizziec - April 11, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Great questions on this issue. I have no deep understanding of any behind the scenes decision-making but I will offer some suggestions based on my observation.
1) Turnover. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I observed the turnover to be fairly significant, and especially among the most credentialed faculty. Whether it is a matter of too much time/effort/money to dedicate resources on updating a revolving webpage of faculty, or some other motivation I believe that this is a factor.
2) Flexibility. If for-profits use a mixture of academics with great CVs as well as folks who came up through their ranks and did not much else, it would be (how can I say this without coming across as elitist?) hard for the credentialed faculty to interact on a level playing field with these “peers”. (It would be hard for me, and I don’t think I’m all that different from others from the traditional perspective)
3) Priorities. At traditional universities, the faculty ARE the institution. Although current economics, as well as bad behavior from within our ranks has threatened this power seat of late, the faculty are the cornerstone of the traditional community college or university. This is most definitely not the case at most for-profits that I have dealt with (2 different ones). This is not a judgment call here (though I do have a strong opinion, it’s just not for this discussion), but a reality. Faculty at the for-profits are expendable and not looked at as much more than paid staff. They do NOT hold the stature or clout that we do at traditional institutions. Some may say “long overdue” and in many cases, I would agree. I have seen too many cases of pompous, tenured, lazy and useless faculty receiving bloated salaries at traditional institutions while “teaching” 1 or 2 classes and doing zero research while the underpaid non-TT faculty run their butts off. However, this treatment or lack of respect (in the traditional sense) comes at a price. My belief is that some of the best faculty eventually leave the for-profits for employmentopportunities that provide more of what most people interested in acdademia are seeking, which includes some level of deference and respect. I also think that as one of the poster in a previous article noted, there are ample candidates waiting in the wings to teach, so there is no shortage of available warm bodies with the minimum requirements to fill the job.
4) Adjuncts are often not listed at many colleges – traditional or non-traditional.While there are always lists and BIOs and CVs for full-time faculty at the traditional institutions, the droves of adjuncts that are increasing in numbers across this nation in ALL forms of academe are usually not listed.
You state “If for-profits want the same legitimacy as traditional universities, they have to be able to answer those questions.”. Is it possible that many of us are expecting that this is what the for-profits want, when in fact they could care less?
Lastly, your query “If I were a prospective student, I would want to know where my future teachers received their M.A.s, M.S.’s, MBAs, Ph.D.s because that would allow me to assess the rigor of their academic training and to estimate the quality of training I’d likely receive from them”. I doubt that this question is prominent in the minds of the target audiences of the for-profits I have worked with – not meant as a perjorative, just the reality of the population. I believe that students who would ask that question would not be looking at attending a for profit.
ForProfitEd - April 11, 2011 at 7:01 pm
This sounds like a CES press release. The conclusions of the GAO report did not change. If the GAO secret shoppers had been submitting internet forms to lead aggregators and conducted the same investigation over the phone with representatives from online for-profit colleges and outsourced “lead qualifying”/warm call transfer reps, the results would have been far more damning.
The GAO made mistakes: they asked questions that immediately flagged them as compliance officers, the “prospective students” brought third parties into interviews who were seemingly well versed in Title IV and they chose ground campuses. It is not ground campus programs that make up the fastest growing and shadiest segment of for-profit education – it is the fully online programs.
ForProfitEd - April 11, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Donoghue: And I would hope that those who fail to measure up to accreditation agencies are punished (though I can’t help noting that the GAO report of November 10, 2010 notes that at a for-profit Associate’s program in Florida, an “undercover applicant was falsely told that the college was accredited by the same organization that accredits Harvard and the University of Florida”).
Regionally accredited for-profit colleges operating large online programs train their admissions representatives to drop names of Ivy league institutions like Harvard and Yale when explaining their regional accreditation to students during the psychologically manipulative sales pitch. These lines and accreditation comparisons are a part of the training for the “sales job”.
Donoghue: I would argue that the differences between the two are night and day, and that the former is a far more meaningful credential. It’s a matter of opinion, to be sure, but I cannot imagine a graduate education without face-to-face interaction.
It is appalling that for-profit colleges offer degrees in Health Care and “Crime Scene Investigation” without requiring student ever step foot into a classroom or clinical setting. As a Health Care consumer, would you want to be cared for by someone who has never set foot in a classroom? The saddest part of this is that you probably don’t have to worry too much about this because many of those students are going to be saddled with debt and no job.
11274135 - April 12, 2011 at 4:47 am
Historically, colleges and universities have had a three-fold responsibility as creators, conveyors, and stewards of knowledge. Most for-profit institutions only assume responsibilities as conveyors of knowledge, since that is the only one of the three traditional responsibilities that is profitable. The other two are cost centers. They are also the functions that require faculty with strong academic credentials. Thus you won’t see for profit institutions touting their research, their libraries, their institutes, or degree programs that require solid historical knowledge. For-profits could not exisit without the knowledge base created and preserved in the non-profit sector. The knowledge base of most for-profits is not much deeper than the textbooks they use.
The emerging model of higher education nowadays relies on the delivery of curriculum by people who could not design the course they are teaching. It’s troubling and clearly unsustainable in the long term.
tgraham13 - April 12, 2011 at 5:59 am
Is this supposed to be a defense of the GAO report, that its conclusions didn’t change? Nixon concluded that he was “not a crook”, but the evidence led America to a different conclusion. The GAO report was a political hatchet job. Where is the outrage?
mathgrace - April 12, 2011 at 8:03 am
“A Ph.D. from Yale, earned in an intense interactive environment is not the same as a Ph.D earned online from the for-profit Walden University. ”
I am a PhD student at Walden University. Why? Because no schools in my area offered the program (Education) I wanted. And that includes Yale (which is not local to me). So what exactly are you trying to compare here?
Also, the level of communication that occurs in our discussion boards, chat rooms, email, SKYPE, and residencies certainly offers an “intense interactive environment”. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that because you haven’t been there, have you? Walden is an excellent school with excellent faculty…you can read all about their credentials here: http://www.waldenu.edu/Colleges-and-Schools/College-of-Education-and-Leadership/Faculty-and-Research.htm – It didn’t take me long to find that page…but I guess you didn’t visit that either. Stop lumping all schools together if you haven’t reviewed all of them. If you did that with people it would be called stereotyping.
Grace Cook
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 9:35 am
I’ve taught in both environments. I have to support Frank here – there is absolutely zero comparison between a discussion board discussion and an in-class discussion.
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 9:46 am
A spot in the NY Times that I wanted to share: “Burden of College Loans on Graduates Grows”
While this article and the issue are most certainly talking about ALL student loan debt, as tuition in every sector has passed reasonability for most working families, the paragraph at the end of the article is worth noting for the crowd that surfs these for-profits discussions.
“Students who borrow to attend for-profit colleges are especially likely to default. They make up about 12 percent of those enrolled in higher education, but almost half of those defaulting on student loans. According to the Department of Education, about a quarter of students at for-profit institutions defaulted on their student loans within three years of starting to repay them.
“About two-thirds of the people I see attended for-profits; most did not complete their program; and no one I have worked with has ever gotten a job in the field they were supposedly trained for,” Ms. Loonin said. (Deanne Loonin is a lawyer at the National Consumer Law Center).
“For them, the negative mark on their credit report is the No. 1 barrier to moving ahead in their lives,” she added. “It doesn’t just delay their ability to buy a house, it gets in the way of their employment prospects, their finding an apartment, almost anything they try to do.”
This speaks again to the core issue that inflames my passions and the sentiments of others who post against the for-profits on this and other fora. She has articulated in her interview the major issue that a lot of us have seen when working for these companies, which is that for the most part, these students are not getting jobs in the field they were supposedly training to enter. This is due to poor preparation (they should have never been admitted to college and promised a new career), a lack of rigor (especially in the online schools), and a fast sales pitch that manipulates desperate people to mortgage their futures for a promise of a better life.
So, for those of you who bash the CHE and Professor Donaghue about bias coloring their reporting, are you now going to accuse the National Consumer Law Center and the NY Times of similar bias?
bcagreenfield - April 12, 2011 at 10:17 am
There are a vast number of differences between F2F and asynch online discussion forums. In F2F the student has the option to participate or not. I suppose the occasional prod from an instructor can go a long way to getting great participation. In F2F discussions thoughts are formulated very quickly to respond real time to questions posed by instructors or in a group setting, a good thing if you ask me. At times all students participate, at other times conversation is dominated by the noisy few.
In an online forum all students have the opportunity to contribute in a way that allows them to repond quickly (same as F2F), or take time to reflect and respond in a very thoughtful manner (this does nto discredit the quick responses in F2F as thoughtful, it just gives the different styles of learner preferences an additional outlet for contribution to conversation). Based on my experience, there is more classwide contribution in online forums versus F2F.
Both modalities have strengths and weaknesses. It is my belief that a good F2F instructor does not necessarily make a good online instructor. I also believe that a good F2F instructor isn’t any better, more important, more credentialed, etc. than a good online teacher.
It is my belief that a traditional instructor that discredits the online instructor is likely a) threatened by the changing role of the instructor in higher ed in the online forum b) just isn’t good at teaching online. The good news is that the traditional institution will not go away, so traditional instructors will only need to adapt to the degree that ther traditional institutions adapt. There will always be ample opportunity for those that desire a traditional education. Online, or non traditional education will not go away because of the enormous demand from the non-traditional market seeking degrees to which traditional ed can not accomodate.
HeXt - April 12, 2011 at 10:26 am
Sales people will always seem professional. Its their job.
HeXt - April 12, 2011 at 10:27 am
PR Spin. Might as well have been written by Harris Miller.
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 10:35 am
I “swing both ways” as both a F2F instructor and an online instructor as my institution has seen the value (or dollar$) potential in offering online programming and I happen to have a lot of experience in it, being an advocate of it from as far back as 2002 when it was in its infancy as a potential delivery method.
I am not threatened by it in any way, shape or form, and in fact, I prefer to teach online for SOME classes. It affords ME the flexibility that is not a rigid office schedule Monday – Friday 8am – 5pm.
That being said, there is a trade-off that occurs and I still say that a discussion board is not the same as a F2F classroom discussion. It’s not as rich, not as enlightening, and I cannot reach out and draw in a student who is reluctant to talk on a discussion board like I can in a traditional classroom (“tell me more about that – I can see that you’re hesitating…” as an example, after reading the look on someone’s face ina class).
There is also the air of “let’s just get this over with and move on” that I see in students in ALL sectors in online classes, whether they be non-profit or for-profit. This may be on their minds in the classroom, but at least for a couple hours during the day or in the evening, I can engage the minds of a roomful of students to ponder business ethics, or social justice and we all come away from those sessions changed. The “hit-n-miss”, multi-tasking nature of online discussion boards does not allow the space to have these periods of reflection, argument and thought in the same manner, and I would argue, that something of the culitvation of intellectual discourse is lost because of it.
What implications this has for society, we will not know for some time, but I suspect that this push for quickie – online college will serve to exacerbate the divide between “elite intellectuals” and the “unwashed masses” as opposed to leveling the playing field by offering “college for all”. I’m not happy about this, rather I see it as an unintended casualty of the trend in higher education.
My opinion – worth what you paid for it (smile)
drj50 - April 12, 2011 at 10:40 am
My understanding is that, in some for-profits, courses are sometimes designed by one instructor and all other instructors teach the “same course” (same lecture outlines, same class activities, same exams). In this case, one could argue that the credentials of the faculty “designer” are more important than the credentials of the various instructors who happen to teach the course in a particular term. An analogy to “traditional” higher ed might be that the credentials of graduate students teaching sections of freshman comp or algebra probably aren’t on the website either.
mikpap - April 12, 2011 at 11:28 am
I attended Argosy/Sarasota. My professors had attended U of Florida, Pepperdine, Harvard, Temple, Penn State, Vanderbilt, Georgia Tech, U of Florida— those are the ones I recall. They talked very freely about their alma maters and this information was listed freely in the course catalog and on the website. It could be that now, since there is more of a proliferation of adjuncts in academia (both for and non-profit) that this information is less accessible.
lafi2050 - April 12, 2011 at 11:33 am
The Nov. 10 GAO report you cite is actually a substantial revision to the original report released in August. The revisions are so significant that they call into question the veracity of the entire report. The person at the GAO who led that report was reassigned. Does that tell you anything? The recruiter’s comment is true…some for-profit institutions are regionally accredited, just like elitist Ivy League schools and other traditional institutions.
mathgrace - April 12, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Hi Lizzie,
I just have to disagree (but thank you for the comment and further analysis). I have taught onsite and online, and taken classes onsite and online. Our online discussions at Walden are incredibly insightful. And I mentioned other tools than just discussion boards. SKYPE and chat rooms provide an interactive Face to Face environment as do residencies (attended in-person). With discussion boards, students have the options of researching topics and providing references which doesn’t typically happen in class.
Also, with discussion boards, the conversation can go in many different directions because it’s not limited to a 1 hour (or whatever time period) class time. Once your students leave the classroom, how many are still thinking about the discussion? Now, I’ll have to say that at lower levels, discussion boards can be tedious processes (I teach developmental mathematics) of drawing students out and getting them to respond with more than just an “I agree”. But at the doctoral level our discussions are over 2-3 weeks and include multiple threads with references, video links, and other resources.
I don’t think it’s fair to lump everyone together. Are all schools like mine? No, I’m sure there are plenty of schools out there with bland and boring discussion boards, for-profts AND non-profits. But not ALL. And that’s why I have a problem with this blog. It dismisses all for-profits with one wave of the hand based on casual research of several un-named schools.
Grace
pittsburghtec - April 12, 2011 at 1:43 pm
I think that you are missing the point. Most of the students who come to our intuitions are primarily concerned with a career. More important than the academic credentials of our faculty they are concerned with the potential employers we work with and the applicability of the training that receive to the requirements of the job to which they aspire. If they are interested in network security, they would much rather be instructed by someone with a masters from ABC University who has had 10-20 years of experience as security administrator for Master Card then they would a PHD in information science from Harvard who has never been responsible for network security in a real world environment. We take on the challenge of educating those who need a much higher degree of personal attention by faculty and student support services than those students who are successful at a traditional 4 year public or private not for profit. To reach the President’s goal of a more educated work force there has to be a place for all forms of education to serve their niche. Come and visit most for profit institutions and I think you will be impressed with the quality and dedication of our faculty
haohtt - April 12, 2011 at 1:45 pm
Unfortunately, both you and Dr. Donoghue appear to unaware of the fact that, according to the U.S. House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, the GAO had to make “major changes” to well over 1/2 of its report’s “investigative scenarios.” The result was that of the 65 anti for-profit “findings,” only 14 were supported by the actual audio evidence collected by the GAO. The fact that they had so many “findings” and that all 15 institutions were guilty, was precisely the justification for Harkin’s declaration of war against private sector education. Then the GAO says “oops,” and it turns out that the vast majority of the “findings” are false and that not all the colleges are guilty. If this investigation had been done against Ohio State, would Dr. Donoghue still try to justify falsified research?
haohtt - April 12, 2011 at 1:52 pm
The scenario that you describe (same lecture outlines, class activities, exams) is also commonly found at non-profit private and state universities–both for face-to-face and online courses. In fact, having “master” online courses is commonly portrayed by accrediting bodies and professional associations as a “best practice.”
haohtt - April 12, 2011 at 2:10 pm
Although Dr. Donoghue based this article on the feedback that he received from his recent blog, the fact that he has merely restated the previous blog demonstrates that he either did not read the comments, did not understand them, or has chosen to act as if they did not exist. Dr. Donoghue stated that he looked at Strayer’s website and could not find faculty credentials. I and others found them in seconds from where one would expect to find them (the college catalog) which, by the way, was access from the WEBSITE. So Dr. Donoghue’s claim that they were not on the website (the entire premise of his blog) was proven false. Does he address this? Of course not. Also his comments regarding face-to-face versus online learning does nothing but manifest an ignorance of thousands of studies comparing “traditional” to mediated instruction, going back to the 1920s, showing no significant difference in learner achievement. In addition, the latest meta analyses on online versus traditional instruction show advantages to those who learn in online and hybrid environments. There is no body of empirical research demonstrating the inferiority of online learning–only the opinions (and opinion polls) of those who “cannot imagine” that people could learn online. With all due respect, Dr. Donoghue, your blog should be about Book-Reviewing and Eighteenth-Century Literary Careers, where you have demonstrated genuine expertise.
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 2:18 pm
@mathgrace: I think that someone like yourself, obviously educated and capable of evaluating your options and making a choice that best meets your needs is a non-issue. Different institutions meet different needs, and the state college degree may fall short of the ivy league degree for seeking/attaining certain positions just as a for-profit degree may fall short as compared to a non-profit state college degree for other positions and circumstances. These are decisions that we make, each of us, based on what we want. Sometimes we just need the “M”, or the “D” and it matters little WHERE we get it as long as it’s a legitimate (accredited) institution with more good press than bad because our work history is solid and speaks for itself.
I mention good press vs. bad because right or wrong, the perception by a hiring committee that a degree is from a diploma mill-type school will not open any doors for you, whether it is an accurate perception or not. However, this is still a matter for the savvy consumer to weigh and evaluate based on their needs.
The problems in the for-profit sector that creates the “bad press” I mentioned above are those that talk unsavvy, clueless and incapable (illiterate) people into borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to enroll in a program through fast-talking promises of great jobs and good salaries, down-playing the amount of work required and the level of academic abiity needed to be successful.
Someone, somewhere needs to start speaking truth to these victims. Whether this is in public-service announcements that run right after the “college in your pajamas” ads, or curricular supplements distributed to target school districts where the majority of students are going to graduate still functionally illiterate, and vulnerable to these scams schools.
I fully support – without much reservation – the for-profit sector that teaches mechanics, cosmetology, and other vocational skills. They are often better at this than other educational institutions.
I object heartily to the for-profits who promise ill-prepared, illiterate and clueless people a “degree”. The degree – like home onwership – has become a status symbol. It represents making it into the middle class (what’s left of it, anyway) and this is a powerful aphrodesiac to people who have been on the bottom rungs of society for generations. This too often translates into untenable debt, more hopelessness, and no job on the other end of the nightmare.
Until the so-called “good actors” of the for-profit industry close ranks and clean out their own house, this perception, and the stench that follows it, will remain.
11302531 - April 12, 2011 at 4:42 pm
Pittsburghtec is right on target … thanks for the comment. Let me take you one step further regarding accessibility to, and value of, faculty credentials. Many for-profit institutions spend serious money putting teams together to create courses — teams of subject matter experts, web designers, and experts in learning theory. Most of us who teach in the ‘research universities’ have to find the time to create a new course while carrying current, already demanding workloads for teaching, research and advising students –especially PhD students. Some of these for-profit courses are masterpieces … gosh, give me the same money and a team, and I could create a course that could be taught by many, many experienced individuals. And, this is my second point. Many undergraduate courses, particularly introductory courses in economics, sociology, philosphy, religion, geography, biology, etc can be taught and taught well, by educated people without (WITHOUT) PhDs. In an article I wrote for the Educause Review, some years ago, “The Intellectual Supermarket”, I argue that higher education should take a serious look at creating coursework for first and second year undergrads that can be taught by “others” — accountants, clergy, journalists, etc. This would free up faculty to do the serious work of knowledge generation … and engage experienced members of our community in sharing their knowledge around a skeleton of well-designed course material. The institutional landscape of higher education needs all types of institutions … and those who seek an education similarly need many different types of access. Let’s not waste our time making the for-profits some sort of whipping-boy … let’s figure out how to deliver the best quality education to the widest variety of students out there!
dpmccain - April 12, 2011 at 6:15 pm
Although I agree with a great deal of what you say regarding for-profit schools (I am an adjunct at one), I take issue with a few comments. Many of my graduate school professors were masters at “smoke and mirror” educational practices, and most of the activities to which I was exposed while earning my Master’s degree were better suited to an elementary classroom. I accrued a great deal of financial aid debt…but most of my learning was done outside of the classroom…through reading, research, and collaboration with colleagues (who were not enrolled in the classes). I attended a Cal State for my teaching credentials and Master’s degree.
Referring to the students who enroll in for-profit schools as victims is inaccurate. For the most part, many of these individuals do not read (or cannot) read the contract they sign. Many, however, do expect a 4.0 with very little effort, then are somehow surprised when they are unprepared for the workforce. When I was first hired, I taught composition classes. The number of students who cut and pasted directly from a web site was staggering. I spent most of my time documenting plagiarism, marking zeros, and then defending myself against charges of racism because students had failed composition….because I didn’t “like” this or that ethnic group. When I moved to in class writing assignments, attendance fell..and yes, attendance at a for-profit is the golden rule (yuck). After a few quarters of this academic bile, I was removed from teaching composition classes. For those readers who are thinking, “why didn’t she just teach them to write?” …I did…Countless hours (need I mention uncompensated?) developing lessons, web sites, demonstration lessons, alternative readings, etc.
There were students who clamored for my classes, but they were outnumbered by those who whimpered that the work was too much (150 words?)…and the full time instructor who now teaches all of the sections of composition sends the students on to upper division classes…; having handed out quarterly A’s like running water; while rarely reading submitted assignments. She justifies her actions with comments like “you have to think of yourself.”
As to the “promises”…yes…this is a practice (by recruiters) I detest…and it does happen. But sometimes, the people who have contributed the least to their education are those who complain of broken promises. They brag about the 4.0…until they receive rejection after refjection in the job market because they are unprepared. Most refuse to do any work outside of the classroom (does anyone really believe he/she can become marketable with 3 classes each quarter, that meet for 3 hours each, once a week? Yes, reading and writing skills are horrible (for the most part), but tutoring sessions go unattended, and support web sites untapped. I would like to see some programs go away, because they are peopled with the marginally literate “entitled”. But….let’s face it…it’s a for-profit school. The cash cow moos loudly.
We have some incredible instructors, both full-time and adjunct on our campus, and they drive themselves with every class. But some students sit in class, shielding their cell phones with their backpacks (I am a former middle school teacher..and know all the tricks)…and then when a quiz is failed, blame the instructor. Most of us teach in a fish bowl (the classrooms have windows facing the hallway), so anyone walking by can see what is going on.
In reading the posts last night, someone mentioned that true students do not care what degree you have as long as you know what you are teaching and that students can learn, and this I have found to be true. Those who believe that a PhD in 16th century English Literature or Creative Writing and Poetry qualifies someone to teach expository writing is usually sadly mistaken.
As an advocate of vocational schools, and the trades, I wish we (in the technical for-profits) would do exactly what we are supposed to do…which is to support those students who need business and technical writing, and the skills that support the technical fields in our programs of study. Our students did not enroll so they could “write” about global warming, gay marriage, or abortion. Pretending to be somethng we are not, is sad…and the reputation we have earned is often richly deserved.
Darn…now I’m depressed…I need to review résumés of students who have “earned” 4.0s in their classes…but cannot write a Cover Letter or format a résumé.
ForProfitEd - April 12, 2011 at 7:04 pm
dpmccain said: For the most part, many of these individuals do not read (or cannot) read the contract they sign.
In many cases, students type in their name and click a “sign electronically” radio button, The Binding Arbitration Agreement is often hidden or embedded within a link. They are on the phone with an Admissions Representative talking them through the entire process by using psychological sales techniques to overcome any potential objection. Admissions Reps guide them through the FAFSA as well, there is a reason for this. When the prospective students asks about the often horrible graduation/retention rates the Admissions Rep can “overcome their objections” often citing the flawed NCES reporting statistics, but leaving out the fact that if the statistics were accurate they would be far worse.
dpmccain said: Many, however, do expect a 4.0 with very little effort, then are somehow surprised when they are unprepared for the workforce.
For-profit colleges are graduating these students — this is the core of the problem! Many are constantly dumbing down curriculum and pressuring instructors to pass students regardless of their ability, attendance or grasp of key concepts.
This, among many other things, is the problem!
baklib1 - April 12, 2011 at 7:46 pm
The author’s assumption is so flawed:
I would want to know where my future teachers received their M.A.s, M.S.’s, MBAs, Ph.D.s because that would allow me to assess the rigor of their academic training and to estimate the quality of training I’d likely receive from them.
The ability to teach has nothing to do with the degree granting institution. Only if one was interested in working in a narrowly focused pursuit would it matter that the teacher had a great depth of knowledge.
ForProfitEd - April 12, 2011 at 7:48 pm
One big problem, for-profit college graduates are often unable to find jobs and are unable to repay their loans.
Here is an article divulging how many employers feel about the students coming out of for-profit colleges: http://www.infoworld.com/t/it-training/profit-tech-colleges-can-it-pros-and-employers-trust-them-685
ForProfitEd - April 12, 2011 at 7:54 pm
Again, you are overlooking several important points. One being that many defenders of the for-profit colleges who have been lashing out at the GAO report, passing now defeated amendments attempting to block the Gainful Employment rule and alleging short-seller conspiracies have received large campaign contributions from the Career College Association and for-profit colleges:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11023/1120085-298.stm
http://higheredwatch.newamerica.net/blogposts/2011/breaking_news_house_education_committee_chairman_kline_cashes_in-46247
dpmccain - April 12, 2011 at 9:07 pm
While you may determine that my assumptions are flawed…I am not assuming anything,, my comments are based on experience. Academic environments are peopled with too many theorists, and not enough practitioners.
I can only speak for myself in my opinions and experience in both the public university and the for-profit sector; both are horribly flawed. The dumbing down of curricula occurs in many educational environments; not just in the for profit.
As to forprofited’s comments, yes, the potential students often fall prey to hearing what they want to hear. Having spent many years in the public PK-12 environment, it’s not that much different than a for profit environment (more is the pity). Each quarter I continue to be amazed by students who have signed binding contracts based upon verbal promises. I have charged my students with accessing an reading their contracts so they understand fully what they have committed to. Before week 4 of the quarter, students may drop without penalty or financial obligation; but few do. How much can we protect them from their own delusions? Do these students truly believe they will be successful as DNA forensic technicians with minimal math/reading/science skills?
My argument is not that the for-profit schools are blameless. I have been on the receiving end of some very unethical practices…but also, as a public middle school teacher, I was told that if I did not change the grade of the daughter of a Congressman, the district could not support my retention as a teacher. Yipes.
I am truly not sure from where an individual receives his/her degree relates directly to the rigor he/she experienced. Perhaps it is more prestige than anything. But having never experienced the halls of Harvard or Yale…I have no frame of reference. I did work with two teachers who earned degrees from Yale, and they were quickly advanced in the ranks;not for their expertise in the classroom, but more for the fact that the district enjoyed noting they had two administrators who graduated from Yale (with degrees totally unrelated to education). They earned their administrative credentials from a Cal State…but that was rarely mentioned.
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 9:13 pm
I actually agree with most of what you have written. My experiences with students was similar if not exact to what you have written, but from the perspective of a different discipline. I have a very thick file full of student emails complaining (in really poor grammar!) about me being the first teacher to give them anything less than an “A”, which was downright scary.
They cheated, blatantly. Most could not read, write or speak in any manner close to what would have allowed them an INTERVIEW for an entry level job in the fields they believed they were studying to enter as professionals. They were lazy and believed that I was being too strict if I made them actually follow the instructions in the lame and rigor-lacking assignments. They had also very often been fed a continual line of crap by instructors who were either just as dumb (see my rants about these places hiring their own) or just plain lazy and had graded their work to that point as stellar (also frightening).
I still think, however, that although they expect a lot in exchange for very little work that they have been exploited and manipulated and sold a bill of goods that reinforces their ridiculous and uninformed beliefs. I take umbrage with a system that allows federal money to be used to trick people into signing on for tens of thousands of dollars that will result in no new career, and a lot of financial heart ache.
I know the students are dreadful, but they are not the villains entirely. They are victims of the neverending welfare state that encourages dependence instead of teaching independence; they are victims of poor K-12 education systems; they are victims of dysfunctional family structures where their parents had few tools to teach them what a lot of us posting on this forum learned around the dining room table; and as adults, they are victims of federally-subsidized scam artists selling them snake oil disguised as a college degree.
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 9:23 pm
Heaven help you on any discussion about for-profits if you actually report what you experience and call it what it is – a travesty. If you didn’t do a double blind randomized trial of for-profit institutions with an n = >500 (like all the for-profit cheerleaders have done, no doubt) then my dear, you don’t know squat.
Never mind that you saw repeated plagiarism, or illiterate people with 4.0 GPAs, or writing that would make your 4th grader cry…. that wasn’t a valid experience and when you report it as being indicative of a serious problem in the for-profit arena, well then – you’re just a hater, or stupid, or narrow and uninformed.
I believe you – I was there, and saw what you saw (or still see). We need to continue to speak out, all of us who have seen the dirty underbelly of higher education, and we need to stop this waste of federal monies and exploitation of vulnerable populations (even if it is sometimes easy to dislike them for their poor behaviors).
lizziec - April 12, 2011 at 9:25 pm
…and yes there are also problems in traditional higher ed and K-12. I happen to think that the for-profits have elevated the bad behaviors to a high art form.
dpmccain - April 13, 2011 at 1:18 am
It infuriates me that people bow to the snake oil vender, but when I explain to students that having signed the contract, and not having taken the steps to drop in time, that perhaps the education (sometimes) to which they have committed could possibly be an excellent adventure (I cannot believe I someow alluded to Bill and Ted). Many students remind me of the people who think they can by a Chanel bag on the street corner for $10.00…chrissakes…do they not do the research indicating that $40,000 dollars is too blasted much for an AS “degree”.
Each quarter I am tempted to tell 3/4 of my students to run, not walk, to the Registrar’s office and drop all of their classes…they have bought a bill of goods…they have succumbed to PT Barnum. However, I need my job to sustain my household. It has been determined that at my age, I am unemployable beyond the adjunct environment (I retired early to care for a seriously ill parent, then the doors of public education were locked tight when I attempted to return…even though guarantees were made) so I, too, succumbed to the unethical two-faced liars but in K-12…but now I am simply spewing venom; shame on me.
With extensive debt for credentials and a Master’s degree that are no longer valuable, I am also angered by federal dollars thrown at institutions and students who value nothing that education has to offer. Students have told me (with a marked sneer) that when it comes time to repay their debt, they will simply vanish to their “home country”. How foolish are we?
Yes, it is a dirty underbelly…but if we expose it…and make attempts to cleanse it..perhaps the 1/4 of my students who bring every ounce of energy they have to the classroom leave with a sense of accomplishment. But I am famous for tilting at windmills.
mathgrace - April 13, 2011 at 8:09 am
I think we’re agreeing here. The “bad-press” for-profits give a bad name to the schools that are accomplishing good things at the for-profit level. However, we never get to hear about the “good” non-profits. But I suppose we can blame this on the sensationalistic quality that news has taken on these days. Who wants to hear about the community service or service derived programs developed by students at my school? They’re much more interested in default rates at schools with television commercials of students in their pjs.
lizziec - April 13, 2011 at 11:30 am
For those interested in another perspective on for-profits, here’s an article from Footnotes, a publication of the American Sociological Association (January 2011)
http://www.asanet.org/footnotes/jan11/forprofit_0111.html
Prof_truthteller - April 17, 2011 at 1:49 pm
I disagree with your assertion, “students aren’t looking for faculty credentials.” I’d like to know where you got that list of what they do want- some consumer oriented market research? And, even if there is some survey somewhere, is it the mission of higher education to deliver consumer products that are “what students want?” I would tell your daughter, “Get with it, Sis!”
Prof_truthteller - April 17, 2011 at 1:54 pm
I liked this comment so much I wish I could “like” a hundred times. Thank you for reminding us that we need to remember not to eat the seed corn.
Prof_truthteller - April 17, 2011 at 2:17 pm
Many of these comments conflate for-profit with online. I believe those are two separate debates. For-profit abuse and misuse of online course delivery, however, is included with all the other abuses, of students, of financial aid policies, of insider trading, and of course the abuse that is the actual topic of Donoghue’s essay, the abuse of faculty.
The question Donoghue is asking here, “why are faculty credentials so difficult to find on for-profit colleges’ websites?” I agree with him in many of his points and think that it likely relates directly to:
Marketing research that shows it as unnecessary to pulling in target market consumers, so why spend money where it won’t show ROI;
De-professionalization of college faculty, reducing them to the level of “workers” or even, “robo-teachers” such that anyone is replaceable, interchangeable, and maybe ultimately, unnecessary;
Economies of scale that can be realized with one person teaching multiple sections of the same course or sections with really large enrollments;
Divide and conquer strategies in the workforce, especially but not only in the online environment, since teachers never meet, do not serve on committees, have no union, no academic senate, no way to join forces to have their views heard or to oppose initiatives that would harm students or weaken rigor or compromise the fundamentals of a subject discipline;
Wage reductions made possible by hiring the teachers who are at the level of bare minimally qualified;
Part time faculty, as contingent workers, provide the ultimate flexibility in quickly changing focus to target what ever programs or courses are most profitable, popular or trendy, allowing quick expansion or contraction of enrollment to maximize profits;
Possibly some benefit in hiring out of state workers for online courses over in state workers- I’m not an expert in employment law, but I do know that state taxes vary considerably for workers, and I’m guessing the same is true for corporations.
Not recognizing faculty clearly indicates their non-professional even non-entity status.
Prof_truthteller - April 17, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Also I notice some online for profits have only ONE page- with alink for “more information” where you must fill out a form and provide your phone number, mailing address, email, etc., in order to get “more information.”
While I appreciate that Donoghue just did a spot-check, it would be a really interesting project to comprehensively evaluate a statistically valid sample.
I did a quick “whois” check on a few domains like “choosetherightcollege.com” (well I made that one up, but there are similar ones out there) and found guess-who owned them.
angela44654 - April 19, 2011 at 9:21 pm
I’m a current student at Walden University (and on the way out at the end of the class I’m in currently). I’ve been searching for the page with the faculty credentials for months, so thank you for linking that so that I could figure out where the faculty credentials for my own program are. You may be right about the environment of the PhD level programs, but as a current undergrad I have to tell you that the rigor and intensity of the program are not at all what I expected. I feel like the time I’ve spent at Walden (and the $20,000 in debt, ouch) was wasted. Many of the classes I’ve taken I could have passed prior to starting high school. I was in the same boat as you, living somewhere that didn’t offer the program I’m looking for, and that’s how I ended up there. But don’t you wonder how it’s going to look to someone when you try to USE the PhD you’re working so hard for?
mathgrace - April 25, 2011 at 8:53 am
Hi Angela,
Actually, my PhD has been paid for by the last three employers I’ve worked for and it will be accepted by my current company (and many others) once I graduate. I haven’t been anywhere yet that hasn’t respected the school once they’ve done some research. What program are you in? It could be that the programs differ in difficulty.
Grace
nateccnn - April 28, 2011 at 7:04 pm
The academic qualifications of the faculty that teach at my college are not displayed on our website mainly because our students don’t really care about their academic qualifications. Our website is a marketing tool. Our clientele is different than a traditional university. We direct the information that our clientele uses to make a decision to contact us only. That’s the purpose of that website. We do not use our website to inflate our own egos. Nor is it a Commons site for our student body or faculty to socialize.
I wonder why McDonalds doesn’t tout the qualifications of it’s cooks on its website. Or the car dealer does not put the academic standing of its fleet department on its website. It really seems like an irrelevant discussion. We have yet to discuss the differences of the types of colleges and the types of students who attend each type of college. Without that discussion your assumptions are irrelevant. You assume that all students seek the same information that you seek.
I think it is wonderful that you care so deeply about the qualifications of the faculty at the schools that you chose to attend and those you chose to work at. Those are YOUR personal choices. And I would expect a person of your nature would not chose to attend or teach at my college, or even a University of Phoenix. Are you insinuating though that if those colleges do not meet your standards of choice that no other student should chose them either? You did admit a snobbish attitude and I appreciate that you recognize that about yourself. But why do you feel a need to denigrate those who you believe to be beneath your stature? How does it benefit you?
I am not embarrassed by my faculty. I am quite proud of their accomplishments and ability to transfer their knowledge to the next generation of technicians. I have a few with some very impressive academic backgrounds and I have a few who dropped out of high school, obtained a GED, took a few Community College classes, spent 20 years in an industry and are now helping another generation achieve their own start in life. Is that start a dream? I doubt it. I would venture to guess that many of our student’s parents dreamed of them becoming a doctor or lawyer or actor or musician or taxi driver. Most of our students have a dream of someday balancing a family budget and maybe sending their own kids on to a state college.
Reality is there are many different dreams and some complete nightmares who are perfectly happy with a technical education or a PhD from a Kaplan that allows a working adult to further his education without the glamor of a pompous faculty, and qualified him for a promotion that gets him into a new tax category. And none of that makes your dreams any less relevant. But those are your dreams. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that everyone has those same desires.
sklahr - February 15, 2012 at 6:00 pm
I would like to add that many institutions in the U.S. do not have a senior international officer, and therefore, there is no coordination or oversight of international initiatives at all. At many institutions, the senior international officer may not be given the authority by the administration to have the necessary oversight due to the level of the position within the organizational structure. Also, there are senior international officers at U.S. institutions who do not belong to the major professional associations and international education organizations that provide the necessary professional development, information sharing, and networking critical to effectively serving in this role, such as AIEA, NAFSA, IIE, etc. The latter is often related to lack of funding, including the lack of travel funds to attend these associations’ meetings, conferences, and workshops.
marjorie_lavin - February 15, 2012 at 8:21 pm
The post by Lane and Kinser notes that institutions are responsible to assure their own quality. And that is just what Empire State College does.
Our program in Tirana, which enrolls about 110 students per year, is overseen by a regional coordinator based on Prague and a full-time coordinator on-site in Tirana. The regional coordinator, formerly a full-time, tenured faculty member and associate dean at a college center in New York, visits the Tirana program once a term with a team of New York based senior faculty, and at other times as needed. The team meets with students to help them with degree plans, advise on course selection, observe classroom instruction, meet with local faculty and provide faculty development programs. The team visit also provides an opportunity for the faculty of both institutions to collaborate on course and program development. The regional coordinator reviews and approves faculty who teach Empire State College courses.
The international programs office at Empire State College’s administrative headquarters in Saratoga Springs NY provides further academic oversight. A faculty curriculum committee reviews and, if appropriate, approves all courses and curriculum, for Tirana and any other international program. Each student – in the Tirana program and any other Empire State College program – prepares a degree plan and a rationale to justify the selected studies. An assessment committee of faculty reviews these documents for quality and conformity to academic policy. There is a second review of the student’s academic record in the graduation approval process.
The students, the faculty in Tirana and the leadership of the partner college are well-known to us. The program is not something that we pack up in a box and ship overseas; we have full-time staff in daily communication with Tirana students. None of this is a secret.
Marjorie W. Lavin, vice provost, Empire State College
no66am - May 15, 2012 at 3:40 pm
”
Lehrer’s defense is that he is fully aware that, as he puts it, “our current science is very much a first draft,” but that you can’t weigh down every example with a page full of caveats and expect a normal person to read it on an airplane” ….. I think this is a weak argument: the late Stephen Jay Gould used caveats wherever they were necessary to indicate that a hypothesis or set of arguments were provisional or open to question; he was read with great intensity on airplanes and pretty much everywhere else. He would have had plenty to say about those blue walls: that’s a claim that truly demands to be weighed down with caveats.
schultzjc - May 15, 2012 at 8:53 pm
This is indeed a long-standing issue for communicating science to the public: how much detail is necessary to be “correct”? And does it matter if details are incorrect? To the first I answer “not much”. The level of detail a scientist demands for assurances is way more than necessary to get most points. You don’t need to know calculus to understand that things can’t go faster than light.
To the second I answer, it does matter, but not for understanding’s sake. Most people don’t understand variation, uncertainty, or even replication, but they do understand “being wrong”. Authors like Lehrer risk general disbelief – of everything – by being called out. If he’s wrong about blue walls, what else in the book, or even the science, is false? (As a scientist as well as normal person, I think the ‘blue wall’ conclusion is excessive generalization.) Scientists and science are likely to be painted with the same blue brush in many people’s minds.
Of course, if no one notices until someone like Chabris point out such errors, maybe it won’t matter much. Perhaps we should just prohibit scientists from reading and reviewing each other’s popular works.
11119482 - May 16, 2012 at 12:05 am
“knows more about science than a lot of scientists.” Depends on how we define scientists. If we define them by those who seek to ask questions and challenge hypotheses and conclusions through experimentation, maybe this is a problem. But if we include those who have degrees and positions suppposedly as “scientists.” he might well know more science than many who call themselves scientists. Too many ‘scientists’ are technicians primarily and not natural philosophers. In other words, very narrow in understanding and viewpoint. So depends on what meant by “scientists.”
nontraditional001 - May 16, 2012 at 9:07 am
accuracy and completeness keep science out of reach of the layperson, we need writers who can distill the information into broadly digestible fare. I can see a critic making sure facts are straight, but asking a writer to include every possible permutation should be saved for a dissertation.
davi2665 - May 16, 2012 at 9:39 am
Communicating science requires the utmost of accuracy, not sloppy and muddled interpretation that cannot stand up to the scrutiny of other scientists. Unfortunately, a lot of authors are cashing in by trying to popularize science but take liberties in their interpretation, well beyond what the original author of the work would do. To my thinking, this is not serious science, it is biopolitics.
pflady - May 16, 2012 at 9:43 am
But wrong is wrong! I frequently have to correct students in my classes who think they know everything about a topic because it is in the lay media. I have to point out that it is not as simple as generally portrayed, only to have a student harrumph and quote a book in popular culture.
chedie - May 16, 2012 at 10:13 am
This was not a dissertation. That does not excuse the author completely, but this arrogant witch hunt by a jealous critic is unwarranted and unhelpful. We need people relating complex science to the layperson, and Lehrer does this quite well. Report his major errors, allow a response, and let it go.
3rdtyrant - May 16, 2012 at 10:24 am
Right. On Star Trek the writers will throw in the occasional scientific term to explain some phenomenon, and I don’t see how imprecise scientific writing, as engaging as it might be, is any better than an episode where Captain Kirk fights an energy being named Melvar.
3rdtyrant - May 16, 2012 at 10:29 am
Exactly the point, I think. Our students do not benefit from this kind of thing. I had this debate about Seamus Heaney’s translation of Beowulf, which is vastly inferior to many other translations. However, it popularized Beowulf immensely. My colleague was convinced that this was the highest good for Beowulf. My argument was that the quality of the translation mattered more than its popularity. Similarly, scientific writing that reaches a popular audience might get the word out about something, but if that word is incomplete or inaccurate, we create more problems than we solve.
3rdtyrant - May 16, 2012 at 10:33 am
Agreed. Lehrer should be jealous of Chabris.
3rdtyrant - May 16, 2012 at 10:38 am
Might it be more valuable, rather than dumbing down science for lay people, for lay people to smarten themselves up to understand science and scientific writing? Understanding is as much a measure of the audience as it is the writer, and I don’t see a down side to a lay audience understanding complex and qualified arguments, even if badly written. The up side is that they recognize bad writing and good facts and then move forward improved, informed, and ready to engage the next idea, rather than have the next idea fed to them in a twinkie.
pflady - May 16, 2012 at 10:40 am
Can’t you have good writing and correct information?
nontraditional001 - May 16, 2012 at 11:50 am
I’d save the gritty details for the footnotes for the more intrepid readers
Steve Shoe - May 16, 2012 at 12:47 pm
No, it’s not arrogance. He just knows better than everyone else. Clearly.
seattlenerd - May 16, 2012 at 2:19 pm
I had long been aware of Beowulf, but I never read it until Heaney’s translation appeared; so in that sense I’d have to side with your colleague.
Accuracy and detail is a fine thing in science writing. However, much of science is about judgment about what to leave out, rather than chasing down every last detail. How many of us have labored to get an article down to 10 or fewer pages? How many of us have used Taylor or other expansions in our work? How many of us routinely assume that double precision is infinite precision? It is not wrong to use a flat earth model when it is appropriate to do so.
———-
Of course, a debate about whether “quality” is more or less important than “popularity” is as pointless as debating whether a “fork” is better or worse than a “spoon.” Presented with a plate of potatoes and a bowl of soup, we see that each has its place.
vlghess - May 16, 2012 at 3:59 pm
Some of this discussion reminds me of Sheila Tobias’ “They’re Not Dumb, They’re Different” about retaining students in the natural sciences who leave for the social sciences or humanities more for “academic cultural” reasons than intellectual. Scientific writing, more than specialized writing in other disciplines, is often inaccessible to lay audiences because of unfamiliar technicalities that only fellow specialists can appreciate. It is possible to be accurate rather than sloppy–but there will always be a cultural gap between journalists (even those who write well about science) and scientists about the need to keep the reader’s interest vs. the need to avoid going beyond the facts…
MarjoryMunson - May 17, 2012 at 10:21 am
Of course you can – but it doesn’t happen nearly as often as it should.
prof_cj - May 18, 2012 at 9:45 am
Instead, it’s a blurb from Gladwell that says Lehrer “knows more about science than a lot of scientists.”
-
This makes my brain hurt and that Gladwell seriously holds this up as a belief causes me to lose a lot of respect for Gladwell.