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U. of North Carolina Upholds Christian Singing Group’s Dismissal of Gay Student

October 14, 2011, 2:55 pm

The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has upheld an officially recognized Christian a cappella group’s decision to remove a member who is gay, the Associated Press reports. According to the university’s nondiscrimination policy, student groups are allowed to limit their membership to students who share specific beliefs, but may not exclude others based on characteristics like age, race, or sexual orientation. The director of the a cappella group, Psalm 100, said the student had been dismissed for his views on homosexuality, not his sexual orientation. University officials said they could find no evidence to the contrary.

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  • dailyreader

    Say what?

  • tee_bee

    So he’d be OK if he was a self-hating gay man? Perfect.

  • 22020476

    So they can discriminate based on a student’s “views” on race, gender and age as well????????

  • copppad

    This is what “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” was.  The idea was that “It’s ok to BE gay, just not DO anything gay.”

  • lslerner

    Sounds like pretty slippery arguing to me.

  • molneck

    What if a singing group sincerely believed, on religious grounds,  that African Americans were genetically inferior? Would they be able to expel a black member for not sharing their belief? (Or would they say that their belief is that homsexuality is wrong, not homosexuals?) 

    Aren’t there private colleges for people whose religious beliefs require flouting non-discrimination laws and norms?

  • 1021ajr

    I’m trying to come up with some way to justify the action of the singing group and UNC, but I can’t.  I just CAN’T.  Wow.

  • 22063319

    So is it just “homosexual belief” that gets you tossed from this organization?  Would an agnostic who just enjoys singing gospel a capella be allowed to stay?  What about someone with a contrary view of baptism or the authority of scripture?

  • goodeyes

    Would a “Gay Rights Group” be okay with a gay member that felt being gay was a choice and that they were not born that way.  Would it be okay with members that felt being gay was wrong.  Should a Christian group be able to kick out a member that publicly preached that god didn’t exist?     

  • rmelton5

    Shouldn’t, at the least, a group list all the beliefs that a prospective member is expected to hold? That way, they would be forced to at least be public about their aversion to homosexuality or (if 22020476′s or molneck’s speculations were correct), non-whites, non-Christians, non-believers,  non-literalists in terms of Biblical interpretation, non-capitalists, or whatever?  At LEAST UNC should be able to require a group to do this; then, there would be a clear basis on which to judge whether a group was within their rights to exclude someone based on their beliefs.

  • jarnold119

    If the mission of the a capella group includes sharing their faith and deeply held religious convictions with others, and if they have made prospective members aware of their belief that sex should be reserved for the context of a marriage between one man and one woman, then they should be permitted to operate within the scope of their defined mission as a voluntary organization. Forcing a Christian student organization to include a member who holds views that are hostile and antithetical to the group would be akin to imposing an avid and outspoken hunter upon PETA’s membership. His views would only serve to undermine and disrupt the missional activity of the group.

  • awegweiser

    This outfit and their University surely exhibit a fine “Christian” attitude toward others. Other members of the group should object and resign from this group of hypocritical bigots. What in Hell does his/her sexual opinion have to do with music?

  • 22020476

    No organization is forced to accept members.  If an organization cannot abide by a university’s non-discrimination policy, they can forgo recognition as a student organization and funding. 

  • willynilly

    Terrible Mistake.  Now we all march off to Court, bad publicity, dirty laundry washed in public, charges and counter charges, finger pointing, blame game tactics, and appeal after appeal.  Why do these seemingly prestigious universities make this same mistake over and over again?  What are the chances this would have all gone away at the end of the semester if no action had been taken to remove him from the musical group?

  • samusa

    Good decision –one must have the right to associate with like minded people and should have freedom to choose not to associate with those with opposite or deviant views. Hope the court does not force them to do otherwise.

  • samusa

    This is not same as discrimination based on race or gender. Homosexuality is a choice, but race is not. If you are born black, you will always be that way. But homosexuals choose to be that way –there are many who were married (heterosexual), had children, then they decided to become gay/lesbian. A black person could never choose that.

  • 22020476

    No organization is forced to accept members.  If an organization cannot
    abide by a university’s non-discrimination policy, they can forgo
    recognition as a student organization and funding. 

  • old nassau’67

    I’d like to know a little more. Who knows what the student’s “views on homosexuality” were, or are?
    Perhaps he feels that only men, not women, should be gay. Or only over 25. Or only whites, not blacks. Or any of of a myriad of this’s, but not that’s. Or vice-versa. And how did Psalm 100 learn of his views? Did they ask? Or merely assume? Did he offer? He could form his own group, and eject all hetero-, metro-, bi- sexuals, not for their orientation, but for their views.

  • Guest

    Maybe he can sign up for the Army and get the GI Bill. The military will embrace him with open arms. Heck, he can have my slot so I can get freakin’ discharged! Honestly, of all things in the world to worry about, a man not being allowed to sing in a group that’s based on a theology condemning him–is this worth a good cry? No, I tell you! This gay boy needs to transfer to Duke and study with whoever in Durham keeps publishing all these Queer Theory tomes with flashy covers. Or the Marines. There’s always the Marines. His darling gay activist community said that all gay men wanted was a chance to serve openly. Head on down to the recruiting office, brother–and enjoy bootcamp! You’ll love the food, the basic allotment for housing, and the cool Class A uniforms. Surefire way to be a hit on the dating market. Absurdity, absurdity, the mad mad mad world marches on.

  • squacky

    Sounds like UNC needs to revise its nondiscrimination policy language. 

  • wcipolla

    Homosexuality is a choice?  I am gay and I have never chosen.  Neither have you.  If my sexuaity is a choice, then so is yours.  Can you tell me at what age you decided to be straight? 

    Your argument is absurd and cannot be sustained by any value-free inquiry into the facts.

  • 11159766

    So, at North Carolina, any group can enforce a loyalty oath?

  • bondage2

    Why is a state university supporting a Christian singing group? And wouldn’t the University guidelines require such a group to accept Muslims?

  • goxewu

    “A man not being allowed to sing in a group that’s based on a theology condemning him–is this worth a good cry? No, I tell you!”

    Right on. Why would such a man ever want to be in such a group in the first place? That’s as absurd as, say, a practicing bisexual man hanging out with the Tea Party and being a fan of Sarah Palin.

  • MarcoLuxe

    Some members did resign in disgust. 
    I wonder if the group’s choir robes include hoods? 
    Yes, if the community deems them bigots, they are, regardless of their protests.  

  • awegweiser

    I believe truly extreme Muslims do not approve of any sort of entertainment other than beheading infidels.

  • PaulMcKechnie

    If we all had to be straight to be in the choir, heaven knows what would have happened to church music.

  • callmemiss

    Probably because the university isn’t “supporting” it.  Student-administered student activity fees (not state funds) likely are.

  • dank48

    So he’s ousted because of his views . . . very nice. Apparently his views conflict with the 0.05% of the Bible that explicitly mentions the subject; never mind the 99.95% that doesn’t. Nice to know that the “Christian” singing group has its priorities straight, so to speak.

    Wcipolla says it and says it well. It’s 2011, and you’re in the dark ages.

  • dank48

    I sure hope they exclude anyone who’s ever had sex outside of marriage. After all, by their standards, that would be a no-no too. Or are they “liars and hypocrites,” as someone once put it?

  • tappat

    So, if you’re black and / or Jewish but have white and Christian supremacist ideals, you’d be fine for the Neo-Nazi Club at UNC? That is, if UNC has a Neo-Nazi Club — I don’t know whether or not it does, but from the kind of thinking reported here, I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. Also, I guess the administration would be in required to force the Neo-Nazi Club to keep a black Jewish woman as a member, if she espoused their views, even if the white Christian members disliked being around her, despite her expressed views. I guess this is a way of keeping people at UNC from forming a nasty Neo-Nazi Club.

  • mizzoudiversity

    They might also examine how this decision relates to their stated diversity framework, mission, and values.

  • j_dubb

    What we know from biology and psychological science does not agree with your conclusion.

  • guidofanconi

    So UNC’s position is that it is merely denying the student’s 1st Amendment rights instead of kicking him out of a state-subsidized student group for his sexual orientation.  It seems to me that either position is indefensible.

  • http://twitter.com/BlacknTexas Black n Texas

    What if, What if, What if.  I am tired of you deviants comparing your plight to that of Black folks.

  • http://twitter.com/BlacknTexas Black n Texas

    Not true, you just say it is.  The college professors shout down/cast out any who won’t buy the koolaid.  That is not honesty.

  • http://twitter.com/BlacknTexas Black n Texas

    So if enough people say you are something then that’s what you are.  Interesting logic.

  • katisumas

    This is not a “gay rights group”.  It’s a singing group!

    However, even so, not student accredited  club is allowed to kick out anyone for their beliefs if this club relies on funds paid for by all students’ fees and uses buildings paid for by all taxpayers.

    Nothing prevents any organisation from meeting off campus and not using university funds.  This group for instance could chose to meet in a church.  I’m pretty sure many churches in the area would welcome an a-capella choir. 

    Why should I pay fees to support a group that wont let me participate? 

     

  • katisumas

    ROP, I know several vets (from much earlier wars, from an older generation).  They served at a time prior to “dont ask dont tell”.  They served at a time when being gay disqualified you from the military which meant the draft. 

    My spouse and friends tell me there were always gays in the military.  They all had gay friends (actually, one of them is gay!).  Surprise!  The last thing in combat anyone experiences is lusting after one of their comrades.  The same now goes for heteros lusting after their fellow soldiers of the opposite gender. 

    The vets I know from my generation all welcome the end of anti-gay discrimination.  They are not surprised that gay military including commanding officers who saw combats more than once have been at  the forefront of the repeal of don’t ask don’t tell. 

    And yes, there are gay marines, always have been.  ROP you are spewing the grossest homophobic stereotypes.  Why?

    PS:  That singing group is not based on theology.  If it was, it would  forego tax payers’ and student fees funding.    

  • katisumas

    Do you believe that all of the one billion and a half Muslims in the world belonging to many widely different denominations, speaking widely different languages and living in widely different countries under their  countries’ laws  are all right wing  extremists? 

    I suggest you listen to some recording of music from predominantly Muslim countries.  You might even like some of it  –I’m  assuming you actually like music, but if you did you wouldn’t have come up with this irrelevant statement.

  • katisumas

    How many times must people tell you that these rules apply only to student clubs/organizations DEPENDENT on university funds made up of fees from ALL students?

    You are free to run you own little neo-Nazi club as long as you forego those fees.

    A  Jewish woman  would be suicidal if she joined a Nazi club.  

  • awegweiser

    Please read my statement more carefully before coming off the deck, katisumas. I specifically said EXTREME which means very radical, very intolerant and often very violent towards those who do not believe as they do.  And sometimes within the same faith. I certainly did NOT say anything like ALL. That’s some rather wild extrapolation by you. Much of the same can be said for some Christians and some Jews. 

  • librarydirector

    Sorry, but that’s one of the most ignorant things I’ve ever seen on this web site.  I truly hope that any Muslim/Christian/whatever would never consider decapitation as entertainment.  You’re sick.

  • belfman

    As a mother of a gay son, I find this so offensive.  I think they should lose state and federal funding for this kind of discrimination and NO, being gay is not a choice!!!  I can’t believe there are still people who think like this in 2011.  

  • tdb489

    Good point.  Why is a Christian a cappella group allowed student membership on campus?  They can sing at any number of locations on their own dime.  Because they are Christians, I am certain that there are very many Christians organizations that would be willing to share there space for free.   

    I resent religious groups on state campuses.  They are always in your face with requests for donations, come to the _____ holiday special, prothletising, knock on your door asking to praise the Lord in your own private home…..  The only clubs allowed on campus should be those related to your major and the success of your career.

    I also find the hate and bigotry of this so called Christian group repulsive and worthy of permanent suspension.  That type of behavior will get you fired in a corporate setting.  You are hateful bullies who have no place in respectable society.

  • skmarie17

    katisumas:  Would you cull out evangelical Christians from Christianity as a whole in the same way?  I think not.  I could be mistaken.  Simply from reading your past comments, I believe it’s a safe bet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Krista-Harberson/39608009 Krista Harberson

    There was a time in history that black folks were considered animals because many christians believed they bore the mark of Cain. Reason prevailed and that theory is no longer a commonly held belief. GLBT people are also minorities and continue to face many of the problems the Black Folks faced before, during and after the Civil Rights movement. These things include not being able to legally marry who they choose, being brutalized for simply being themselves and being discriminated against in the workplace. Many people believe that being gay isn’t the same as being part of a racial minority because race isn’t a choice. Many people also believe the being gay is a choice. I have years of experience mentoring young people in the GLBT community and have seen many of them verbally abused and physically beaten, disowned by their families, unable to find employment and left homeless. When faced with these possibilities, why would any person “choose” to be gay?

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