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U. of Illinois Adjunct Dismissed for Comments on Homosexuality Was Picked and Paid by Church

July 19, 2010, 11:54 am

The controversy over the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign’s dismissal of an adjunct professor for his teachings in a course on Roman Catholicism has been exacerbated by word, reported in today’s Chicago Tribune, that the instructor was selected to teach the course and was paid by the church, through the campus’s St. John’s Catholic Newman Center, which is financed by the diocese of Peoria, Ill. The adjunct, Kenneth Howell, was dismissed after a student complained to the university that Mr. Howell’s remarks on Catholic doctrine on homosexuality constituted “hate speech.” A university panel is now reviewing the situation, to determine if Mr. Howell’s academic freedom or free speech were violated.

A separate committee will look into the university’s 39-year-old partnership with the church, in which the latter largely determines how Catholicism is taught in the otherwise-secular religious-studies department — certainly an unusual arrangement for a public institution to enter into. Mr. Howell told the Tribune he considered himself an agent of both the church and the university, even though he sought a mandatum from the Peoria bishop, a pledge of loyalty to church doctrine and to speaking on its behalf.

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42 Responses to U. of Illinois Adjunct Dismissed for Comments on Homosexuality Was Picked and Paid by Church

jffoster - July 19, 2010 at 12:37 pm

This sounds like a “Concordat” type arrangement of the kind they often have between the RC Church and public universities in Yurp. And an arrangement that has no place in public colleges and universities in the United States. On the other hand, if he’s teaching a course about Roman Catholic doctrine, to dismiss him for teaching what Roman Catholic doctrine is in on the face of it reprehensible.

dgwebster - July 19, 2010 at 12:51 pm

Here is an excellent discussion about this issue.http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/07/19/illinois

drtlegg - July 19, 2010 at 3:42 pm

I still want to know why they are teaching Voodoo in a public institution…this is just freaking me out…

rmelton5 - July 19, 2010 at 3:46 pm

Having now read the article pointed to by #2, I must say I’m shocked that this arrangement has been in place at UIUC for such a long time. As someone with no connection to the state of Illinois, but who has been involved with higher education for my entire life (both parents were professors too), this item plus several others (notably the admissions scandal) have made UIUC’s reputation really sink in my mind. It used to be right behind Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, UCSD, UNC, maybe Wisconsin and Washington. Now, I think of it as distinctly second tier (and falling).

orthgc1 - July 19, 2010 at 4:17 pm

Having the church approve those who teach its theology is common in European universities. When Hans Kueng of the University of Tuebingen came into conflict with the Vatican over his liberal stances, he was decertified, in effect, and lost his position as RC Theologian, but stayed on as Ecumenical Theologican.

22199179 - July 19, 2010 at 4:20 pm

I really don’t understand why anyone is surprised that a course on Roman Catholicism covers the doctrine. I’ve read the email in question. Again, I don’t understand how it was considered hate speech. He very clearly states that his intent is to provide additional information on two theories covered in class and gives several examples of how each theory would approach the examples. Yes, SEX was covered….yes, even homosexual sex was covered. But as someone that grew up in the Catholic church, I knew that was their view on sex in general and homosexual sex in particular. I still don’t understand how saying…here is the known doctrine of Roman Catholicism about sex (not just homosexual sex) is hate speech?And no, I am not an active Catholic because of their views about homosexuality and womens place in the church…womems place in the world in general.

alan_kors - July 19, 2010 at 4:32 pm

There are two categorically distinct issues here. One, of longstanding, is the absolutely unacceptable arrangement with an outside agency (of any kind) for purposes of hiring and teaching. The second, immediate, issue is a professor’s conveying a particular point of view in his or her subject matter, linked to a corollary issue of whether or not double standards obtain in this case. The arrangement with the Church should be ended as a violation of institutional academic independence (not to mention issues of church and state). The Newman Center, as with all voluntary associations, is free to hold non-credit, voluntary courses on whatever it wishes, but not to dictate to the university. The professor has an obvious right to state Catholic belief in a course on Catholicism, and, on the issue of double standards, I find it wholly unlikely that a feminist professor of feminist thought or a professor of queer theory would be accused of “hate speech” for stating feminist or queer views of the Church. Further, the student has an absolute right to reasoned dissent from a professor’s views without penalty whatsoever. So, how about independent hiring as an obvious conclusion, along with freedom to profess within one’s actual field, erring on the side of freedom of expression, the right of student disagreement, and no double standards? The old AAUP Guidelines sound mighty applicable to all of this.

22113683 - July 19, 2010 at 4:50 pm

I too have just read the article and discussion cited in comment #2 above. What I haven’t found is the text of the actual email that began this brouhaha, so it’s difficult to say whether Dr. Howell was proselytizing or not. Frankly, I doubt it; I don’t see how anyone who’s not far-left politically could think it’s OK to proselytize. What do I mean? Faculty and Departments who insist that only an African-American can teach Black Studies courses, or that only a radical feminist can teach Women’s Studies, or that only a Native American can teach Native American Studies. (Well, at least a pseudo-Native American.) It’s routine that such courses are heavily into indoctrination, and administrators defend it. As I understand it, Dr. Howell was better qualified academically to teach Catholic Thought than Ward Churchill was to teach Native American Studies at the university level.In terms of academic integrity, no one who has defended frauds like Ward Churchill has any business howling (Ahem. Sorry.) about the Illinois situation.

12099404 - July 19, 2010 at 4:55 pm

It’s not “hate speech” to call it what is. Sin. Lots of things are sins and we “sinners” don’t like it. But, denying it is just that, denial. Sorry!

drfunz - July 19, 2010 at 5:25 pm

If the professor was instructing the class on the tenets of Roman Catholicism, then there is no foul here, even if one disagrees with the tenet. The question becomes “was the professor giving an scholarly opinion (possibly exercising academic freedom), given his personal beliefs ( exercising freedom of speech) or on a tirade (possibly creating a hostile environment)?” No matter who pays, the faculty member must abide by the University standards.

jack_cade - July 19, 2010 at 5:35 pm

@12099404: It isn’t a sin to me nor is it to 100s of millions perhaps even billions of other humans. Why? Because what you call sin some might call fun, healthy, and maybe even a gift from God, if they are religiously inclined.The disturbingly low level of the conversation on this topic forestalls a longer response.However two points remain worth noting.First, if you haven’t read the emails in question that prompted Mr. Howell’s termination then you probably should not comment. Second, tolerance is not about being polite while you secretly hate someone. Hatred of others who don’t believe as you do is a sin and against the law if you express it, further it has no place in a public institution.

d_and_der - July 19, 2010 at 5:44 pm

Well said #7. 1) “One, of longstanding, is the absolutely unacceptable arrangement with an outside agency (of any kind) for purposes of hiring and teaching.” You are absolutely correct, but universities compromise ethics to obtain financial advantage in every area imaginable. How do you stop it.2)”The second, immediate, issue is a professor’s conveying a particular point of view in his or her subject matter, linked to a corollary….” I am a bit confused on this. I try not to give my point of view on any subject. I usually state the facts and then ask the students to debate their point of view. A student should be grateful to hear the facts on this position, but not necessarily the teacher’s position. Nor, should a point of view be forced upon anyone.

22238751 - July 19, 2010 at 5:44 pm

To Alan Kors (#7): Wouldn’t your principle, “One, of longstanding [word missing?], is the absolutely unacceptable arrangement with an outside agency (of any kind) for purposes of hiring and teaching,” exclude ROTC courses from the university?

jffoster - July 19, 2010 at 5:50 pm

Re Mr. Cade (11)’ comment: ” Hatred of others who don’t believe as you do is a sin and against the law if you express it.”I don’t think so, Mr. Cade. Would you care to cite exactly which law expressing hatred of others is in violation of? And how that law, if it exists, is likely to hold up in court agains the 1st Ammendment?

drfunz - July 19, 2010 at 5:58 pm

I take my comment back… I just read the email. He was NOT teaching the tenets of Roman Catholicism. It probably is not a hate crime, but SURELY this guy could have found a different example of utilitarianism!

22113683 - July 19, 2010 at 6:26 pm

A further note: I’ve found the offending e-mail; it’s linked to the insidehighered article which #2 cites. I’m more bewildered than before about the reaction to it. The professor sent an email to his class to clarify a question on an upcoming exam. (Apparently they ran out of class time while discussing the issue.)The question he was clarifying dealt with the philosophical basis of moral decisions. There are several major possibilities: Consequentialism (of which one type is Utilitarianism), Deontology (of which some types are the Categorical Imperative, the Social Contract, and Divine Command morality), Human Nature ethics, and “Natural Moral Law.” In his email, he focused on only two of the possibilities, Utilitarianism and NML, because that was (those were) the focus of the test question. To illustrate the problem and indicate the *types* of answer he was looking for in the exam, he took as an example, homosexual acts. Maybe not the most tactful choice, but it provides clear alternatives of ways to decide moral behavior. He made it clear that students were free to disagree with his point of view, but that they were expected to understand the two ethical theories and how they would apply to a specific moral problem. In other words, he expected *critical thinking.*And for this he has been pilloried, excoriated, and fired. Sad.Perhaps his basic fault was communicating by email. We seldom edit and refine emails—consider the number of errors in logic, spelling, sentence structure, etc. in a vast majority. Sometimes we don’t notice that we’re sending a reply to an entire listserv instead of one person. We ramble; emails are frequently rather stream-of-consciousness, particularly when we don’t think we’re writing for publication. The courts have made it clear that a person using email has no right to an expectation of privacy, but people keep on writing things they *hope* won’t go any farther.On the strength of one anonymous complaint, the university terminated the professor because he was teaching critical thinking and not political correctness. In crude terms, they censored him for the content of his beliefs rather than for professional malfeasance.

optimysticynic - July 19, 2010 at 7:29 pm

Kudos to comment #16! As one (among many in our eductional system) who takes seriously and incorporates substantially “critical thinking” into teaching, I say “There but for the Grace of God…” Sorry for the religious reference but the phrase carries much meaning succinctly. I expect the occasional non-critical thinking, defenseiveness, and narrowing of cogntive abilities at the hand of emotional reaction from students. Indeed, if this didn’t happen occasionally, there would be little evidence that crtiical thinking efforts were working. What I find appalling, however, and has made me question for the first time my subscription to CHE is the headline grabbing, sensationalist approach reflected in the title of the CHE article: “U. of Illinois Adjunct Dismissed for Comments on Homosexuality Was PICKED AND PAID BY CHURCH” (emphasis added). There are many legitimate points to be examined about the situation. To slant the finger pointing in such a blatant fashion in the choice of article title suggets the author’s primary goal is attention and number of “hits” rather than thoughtful question raising. Does anyone know, for example, if/how the number of comments in response to an article accrues to the author with respect to his/her standing with CHE? In any event, thank you 22113683. Knowing that there are least critical-thinking readers is heartening.By way of disclosure: I am not a member of any relogious group nor do I identify with such; I do subscribe to Skeptics; and I believe in the utility of critical thinking.However, the latter like good medicine, is useless if left sitting on the shelf rather than consumed.

agpbloom - July 19, 2010 at 8:42 pm

drtlegg says (post #3):”I still want to know why they are teaching Voodoo in a public institution…this is just freaking me out…”Not only is this a blasphemous assertion, but it also betrays a commitment to the sort of naive positivism that was popular in the early 20th century. You know, the kind that views science in terms of proven “facts” over and against “gray” areas like religion, philosophy or history.The problem here is the ignorance of a vast literature by scientists that challenges this kind of simplistic worldview.Welcome to the revival of an old, discredited viewpoint, all in the name of setting up a false dichotomy between “Voodoo” and areas depicted as black-aqnd white. This is truly a worn-out re-run, drtlegg!

jffoster - July 19, 2010 at 10:50 pm

No 18, agbloom, says in reference to another poster’s having equated teaching about Roman Catholic doctrine with “teaching Voodoo” the following: “Not only is this a blasphemous assertion,…” [ellipses mine jff]Well it may or may not be. But that is probably going to be regarded as irrelevant by most readers of these presents. Blasphemy is a religious notion, but there is no legal civil blasphemy in the United States of America. We are legally free to blaspheme to our hearts’ desires. Blasphemy is simply not actionable either under criminal code or civil tort law.

snwiedmann - July 20, 2010 at 7:59 am

The intellectual study of any religion is a legitimate academic undertaking. When the institution is a public university and the instructor is proponent of the religion, a dangerous line has been crossed. Teaching students how a particular religion developed — its history, doctrine and tenets — is legitimate. Proselytizing is not.

niolonra - July 20, 2010 at 9:36 am

The email includes this:”One example applicable to homosexual acts illustrates the problem. To the best of my knowledge, in a sexual relationship between two men, one of them tends to act as the “woman” while the other acts as the “man.” In this scenario, homosexual men have been known to engage in certain types of actions for which their bodies are not fitted. I don’t want to be too graphic so I won’t go into details but a physician has told me that these acts are deleterious to the health of one or possibly both of the men. Yet, if the morality of the act is judged only by mutual consent, then there are clearly homosexual acts which are injurious to their health but which are consented to. Why are they injurious? Because they violate the meaning, structure, and (sometimes) health of the human body.”"To the best of my knowledge…” is not the same as “Church doctrine states…” or “Several theologians, on the basis of Church doctrine, have argued that…”. Imagine teaching that “To the best of my knowledge, since the sun rotates around the earth, the recent discoveries of NASA regarding … are actually harmful. Why are they harmful? Because they violate the meaning of the sun, moon, and stars….”The Church did indeed say the earth was the center of the solar system, but the interpretation of facts that don’t fit reality to serve as the shakey basis of a moral argument, by which that which is not understood is judged to be wrong is…. Well… on reflection, perhaps this adjunct was doing an EXCELLENT job of teaching the Catholic Church’s version of critical thinking. Perhaps I could cover transubstantiation and papal infallability in my psychopathology course, as, to the best of my knowledge, believing that something looks exactly the same but suddenly isn’t what it is and the difference can’t be proven or explained… or that some people receive messages from higher beings … are examples of delusional thinking. Not to be too specific given confidentiality concerns, but I have heard people experiencing a psychotic break offer very similar kinds of thinking, which can lead them to engage in behaviors which are dangerous to themselves and to others. Thus, we would judge such beliefs to be examples of psychopathology.Certainly what I have said is true. The harm, though, isn’t in the statements I made, but in the way I have strung together thoughts that say some things and don’t say other things, and the way I have invited the listener to assume, leave untested, and accept as logical something which is unstated (Catholics are crazy), untested (do most people who believe these specific things engage in dangerous behaviors), and illogical (to be religious, you must be psychotic). I could do the same with IQ scores and African Americans, pointing out the arguments that historically many have made that they are intellectually inferior, which is consistent with the differences in the test scores. I may not act outwardly or inside feel hateful when I teach this, and so you can debate whether it is hate speech or not. It is, however, an act of causing harm as I string the ideas together this way, and omit any discussion of critically evaluating the argument, the basis for it, or any alternate possible interpretations of the data…These are not examples of poor teaching or poorly worded explanations of valid course content. These are examples of clothing poor thinking in professional concepts and words, and teaching others to diminish people, and dismiss the worth of their choices and lives.

stinkcat - July 20, 2010 at 1:59 pm

“Teaching students how a particular religion developed — its history, doctrine and tenets — is legitimate. Proselytizing is not”Of course the real question is: what is proselytizing? Is it proselytizing to say this is what the Catholic Church believes and I agree with it? Is this any worse than the professors who proselytized against the Vietnam war? Must we keep all of our opinions to ourself?

agpbloom - July 20, 2010 at 2:07 pm

In response to my post #18, jffoster says,”Blasphemy is a religious notion, but there is no legal civil blasphemy in the United States of America. We are legally free to blaspheme to our hearts’ desires. Blasphemy is simply not actionable either under criminal code or civil tort law.”For the record, I did not claim that there was “legal civil blasphemy in the United States of America.”Legally, people are free to do many things that are heinous and immoral. So yes, jffoster, people are free to do these things, but people should not mistake such actions for moral or righteous ones.What is legal is not necessarily moral.

katisumas - July 20, 2010 at 3:07 pm

21. Niolonra, thank you for quoting directly from the e-mail It’s now clear the professor wasn’t writing about church doctrine but was presenting prejudices as if they were fact; homosexual acts are harmful to your health, one of the partners plays a woman’s role, etc etc etc. Nothing to substantiate any of those claims exceptm that “a physwician told me” I don’t see any trace of critical thinking and the teaching of it here.

katisumas - July 20, 2010 at 3:12 pm

VOODOO: comparing the Catholic Church to the Voodoo Church is blasphemy indeed. Voodoo has much more gentler ways of expelling demons from someone’s body than the Catholic Church does, what with the Inquisition and the still existing and, “to my knowledge”, thriving dept. of Exorcism at the Vatican…..

rmelton5 - July 20, 2010 at 4:29 pm

Inciting prayers (particularly in a language that your congregants don’t use) to convert bread into human flesh and wine into human blood is, for many of us, about as good an example of voodoo as you can find.

11319762 - July 20, 2010 at 4:34 pm

The Newman Center at UIUC or any other university does not dictate anything to the university. In this case it made a qualified individual available to the university offer a class that could have some interest to some students, much as adjuncs from other walks of life offer courses within the univesity. Religion is a major field of study in sociology, history, literature, art, political science and other disciplines. To say that religion has no place in an American public university is the real violation of academic freedom. If religion is indeed so toxic, then let us really clean the academy of its viral cells and purge mention of religion from these other disciplines as well. After all viewing The Last Supper in an art class or listening to Handel’s Messiah in a music class might just cause some poor student, or worse, some professor, to momentarily consider the possiblity of something transcendent. G-d forbid.

jffoster - July 20, 2010 at 4:45 pm

Yes agpbloom (23), what is legal is not necessarily mnoral. But I hadn’t known we were discussing morality. This is primarily about a. what kind of course on Roman Catholicism (or any other religion) is appropriate in a PUBLIC university in a secular society, b. what kind of relationship is appropriate between the public university and a religous organization that sponsors and pays for the course, c. the particular email in question and whether it was within the bounds of explaining parts of the course. That you consider an equation of Roman Catholicism with Voodoo to be blasphemy is really not relevant here. As far as public institutions and citizens are concerned, blaphemy simply does not exist. No. 27, I don’t think anybody here is proposing that nothing about religion be taught or any research about it be done at the University of Illinois or any other public university. I taught and did research at a public university in Ohio for 40 years and taught our course ‘Religion in Culture’ for over thirty of them.

robertusa - July 20, 2010 at 5:19 pm

Do any voodoo practicioners engage in ritualized cannabilism? If so, the comparison may be appropriate.

agpbloom - July 20, 2010 at 7:24 pm

jffoster indicates that a large part of our discussion here concerns “what kind of course on Roman Catholicism (or any other religion) is appropriate in a PUBLIC university in a secular society…”Here is that naive positivism again. We are informed now that America is a “secular society.”Perhaps, jffoster, as one who claims to have taught a course called “Religion in Culture” for 40 years, sort of missed out on the fact that a large MAJORITY of Americans reject secularism as a worldview. Isn’t it appropriate to mention this in an educational forum about religion? I would think so.How could you omit this item in our discussion after all those years of teaching religion and doing research? What sort of selective forgetting is this?Besides, with all the Voodoo apologists and Anti-Catholic posters on this board, you would have to see that we are anything but “secular” these days? (The Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins true-believers cult aside!)

rmelton5 - July 20, 2010 at 8:21 pm

Yes, #30, it is certainly appropriate to cite any objectively obtained data about Americans’ religious beliefs in a religion course, or in a sociology course, etc. Making reference to factual data is not the same thing as putting across (teaching) your religious beliefs themselves as factual information. Also, #27, the fact that a teacher at a public university is not able to be objective about the course she/he is teaching makes his/her “qualification” to be teaching the subject dubious. For example, telling a class “To the best of my knowledge …. ” when he doesn’t cite any data, relevant reputable experts, or even personal experience is by itself a sign that the instructor is not qualified to be lecturing on the subject. On the other hand, YES, he may say objectively and authoritatively “The Catholic Church has historically disapproved of homosexuality for the following reasons: …..” This, of course, is still a different issue than whether a public university should be in effect offering credit courses from any kind of religious, fraternal, political (left or right), or commercial entity.

agpbloom - July 20, 2010 at 8:42 pm

In all this discussion, one of the biggest elephants in the room is the one that tip-toes whenever a challenge is made in opposition to the chersihed sacred icons of the LGBT lobby.Remember what launched this whole issue. The first concern was not about the so-called separation between public and religious.Would the same scuttling about be in motion today if some of the prominent, gay-activist scholars at this institution had offended heterosexuals with their religious comments in a classroom. I wonder.There is no need to delve into names and personalities right now, but the U of I has a longstanding college industry in queer studies and homosexual/ scholarship activism. But this seems to be just fine. What we really have got to “look into” are the teachings of a man that went way out on a limb when he defended the concept that men and women have a natural propensity for each other. Give me a break! Even older, progressive liberals would not have questioned this natural law approach to sexuality. In 2010 it’s treated as if it is a scandalous view. Just look how far the academy has de-evoled.Does anyone see how out of hand this situation is? I wonder how many tribunals Howell will have to endure before his opponents are finally satisfied.

agpbloom - July 20, 2010 at 8:47 pm

Let me make a correction: CHERISHED sacred icons of the LGBT lobby.

jffoster - July 21, 2010 at 9:42 am

Agpbloom in 30 commenting on my 28 says, among other things, some of them howlers, the following:”Here is that naive positivism again. We are informed now that America is a “secular society.”Well first, I see neither naivety nor philosophical positivism in the claim that the United States are a secular society. Mr. Bloom may have only just been informed of it but many of us, including almost all social scientists and many ecclesiastics have known it for a long time. Mr Bloom in a phrase of sophomoric sarcasm goes on to say: “Perhaps, jffoster, as one who claims to have taught a course called “Religion in Culture” for 40 years, sort of missed out on the fact that a large MAJORITY of Americans reject secularism as a worldview. Isn’t it appropriate to mention this in an educational forum about religion? I would think so.”I wouldn’t. It’s not relevant to this original news item and discussion. We don’t decide curricula nor analyze social organization by short term majority vote of the populace general. Moreover, it’s not relevant to whether the United States are a _secular_, in contradistinction to a _sacred_, society. It’s not about “world view” of individuals, Mr. Bloom. It’s about whether government and the sovereign groups in the social organization are independent of religious practice and belief. A _sovereign group_ is a group that has original and ultimate jurisdiction over some sphere of social life. The nuclear family, counties in some states but not others, a State of the Union, are examples. The armed forces, the schools, and yes, churches, are not sovereign groups in the legal and social organizational sense of _sovereignty_. Churches in some societies are sovereign, having original and ultimate jurisdiction over things outside their membership. But in the United States, church is strictly optional, and so are church doctrines and practices. This is true even in Utah. Establishment of religion is constitutionally prohibited, and the United States constitutionally prohibit requiring a “Religious Test” as a qualification to hold office under them (Article VI). But even more telling is how “unpervasive” religion comes up in normal operations of the society. There is no “Christian Democrat” or the like political party, political speeches either for the public or in legislative operations are sparse on references to religious dogma. The State has no authority over religious beliefs and only limited authority over religious practice, and religious organizations have absolutely no authority over governmental decisions, operations, or ordinary life. A person can “affirm” in taking an oath and cannot be compelled to swear an oath, mention God in the affirmation, or use a Bible or a cross, &c. Wal Mart is open on Saturday AND Sunday, although Sam and Helen Walton were active and devout Presbyterians and Helen supported a pretty fundamentalist college in the Arkansas. Mr. Bloom, the Republic of Turkey / Türkiye Cumhuriyeti is, a secular republic, despite the fact that something on the order of 97% of the population are Moslems, mostly Sunni. Given the current government, they may not be able to stay secular but they have been since Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and are for the present, in contradistinction to, say, Saudi Arabia, a sacred society. Compared to Yurp, divine service is still widely attendedin the United States with some measure of regularity, but these are family and individual acts. Indeed, Americans have been generally and over middle and longer range periods of time remarkably good and clear about what is God’s and what is Ceasar’s. The attention and debate of course attracts to the borders, which are sometimes clear and other times fuzzy and fluxy. Now, given Mr. Bloom’s phrasing of me “as one who claims to have taught a course called “Religion in Culture” for 40 years,…”I should add one additional comment. (Actually, I wrote that I had taught the course ‘Religion and Culture’ for over 30 years). It is of course possible that ‘jffoster’ is a pseudonym and that I am really Queen Marie of Rumania. Or maybe even the Archdruid of Wales. But assuming that it is in fact my initials and name, it ought be pretty easily checked, so if you doubt, LOOK IT THE HELL UP! Ive already told you it was a public university in Ohio. I’ll help you further — it was in a Department of Anthropology. Wonder what Mr. Bloom has been doning the last forty years or soand where he has done it. BTW, I was also once a student in a course about religion given by a public university — the University of Illinois — the main campus at Urbana-Champaign, where I did my graduate work in Anthropology and Linguistics. And despite the expressed “worldviews” of a good many downstate churchians, the Anthropology and Biology departments delved into evolution — all the way from Oyster to Foster.

agpbloom - July 21, 2010 at 10:59 am

jffoster states:”I see neither naivety nor philosophical positivism in the claim that the United States are a secular society. Mr. Bloom may have only just been informed of it but many of us, including almost all social scientists and many ecclesiastics have known it for a long time.”Would this group of “almost all social scientists” include those authors who have questioned the presuppositions contained in books like Harvey Cox’s The Secular City of Peter Berger’s The Sacred Canopy? Or what about the recent writings of Rodney Stark? Maybe they would not be included in the academic club you have identified.You may be correct, though. It may not be naivety that propels your outdated dichotomy of sacred vs. secular. Perhaps, a sort of romantic idealism is in there as well…a longing for the good old days when people believed that everything could be measured by the clear-cut canons of logic and empiricism (i.e. Ayer, Russell and the early Wittgenstein) over and against the “superstitions” of everyday people. Those were the days!Sorry about getting your biographical details wrong. Yes, you did say “over thirty years” not forty years, but I suppose if over thirty means thirty-nine then maybe I was close.You also noted that “…the Republic of Turkey / Türkiye Cumhuriyeti is, a secular republic, despite the fact that something on the order of 97% of the population are Moslems, mostly Sunni.” So I guess, according to this approach…you are defining “secular society” in terms of minority rule.Applied to America–which was my focus before you went global on us–this would mean that the minority of secular elites who are in positions of power and authority have the power to define America as “secular” even though approximately 90% of Americans would not accept the secular label.How convenient! We are a secular society because a small, powerful minority tells us that we are.Also, you reminded all of us of the following: “Establishment of religion is constitutionally prohibited, and the United States constitutionally prohibit requiring a “Religious Test” as a qualification to hold office under them (Article VI).”For the record…I never advocated the establishment of religion in my posts. Instead, I question the presupposition that a completely secular question/ charge is being pitted against an individual who freely expressed a legitimate philosophical point of view. To my knowledge, Professor Howell was not pushing one particular religious point of view, nor did HE endorse the establishment of one dominant religion at a state institution.Let us not forget what started the attack on this adjunct professor.

jffoster - July 21, 2010 at 12:02 pm

Mr. Bloom in 35, responding to my 34 has the following, which I believe goes to the core of our differences: ” You also noted that “…the Republic of Turkey / Türkiye Cumhuriyeti is, a secular republic, despite the fact that something on the order of 97% of the population are Moslems, mostly Sunni.” So I guess, according to this approach…you are defining “secular society” in terms of minority rule.”No. It would be a little closer to say it’s defined in terms of the relative presence or absence of “religion rule”. Suggest you read again carefully my 34, and especially the paragraph beginning “I wouldn’t.” To characterize societies as relatively sacred or secular, we do not count how many people go to Mosque, Synagogue, Church, or even how many have a kamidana in their house. We do not depend on an inventory of individuals’ beliefs, or on whether they individually would “accept the secular label”. We look rather at the extent to which “government” and nonreligious social groups are independent of religion and religous beliefs and practices. You go on to say “Applied to America–which was my focus before you went global on us–this would mean that the minority of secular elites who are in positions of power and authority have the power to define America as “secular” even though approximately 90% of Americans would not accept the secular label.”Since it’s about the nature of societies, “global” adds an important perspective, and the contrast between Turkey and Saudi Arabia is a good illustration. But it’s not about anybody “defining” America or Arabia as secular or sacred. It is a matter of discovering, describing, and analyzing what is.

agpbloom - July 21, 2010 at 1:52 pm

jffoster notes:”But it’s not about anybody ‘defining’ America or Arabia as secular or sacred. It is a matter of discovering, describing, and analyzing what is.” Here he betrays his undying faith in positivism (“a matter of discovering, describing, and analyzing what is”). It is just merely a matter of describing and “analyzing” Professor Howell’s dilemma. Forget all that stuff about possible biases, motivations, political factors and human foibles at work behind the scenes. One other thought…NOTE: There are two processes at work in the Howell case.jffoster seems obsessed with the following part of the Chronicle’s “Ticker” segment:”A separate committee will look into the university’s 39-year-old partnership with the church, in which the latter largely determines how Catholicism is taught in the otherwise-secular religious-studies department — certainly an unusual arrangement for a public institution to enter into.”But prior to this bit of “discovery, description and analysis,” mention was ALSO made of the university panel set up “…to determine if Mr. Howell’s academic freedom or free speech were violated.”This issue preceded the “separate committee” that represents another issue, a digression from the earlier matter involving a student’s allegation of “hate speech.”jffoster spends the bulk of his time on the “separate” committee’s charge. He wants the audience’s attention on that.I wonder why? An interesting piece of midirection!

goxewu - July 21, 2010 at 3:44 pm

I peruse the “Brainstorm” threads and post a comment more than my fair share of the time. There are some topics, however, that either fail to light my fire or that have developed into a pas de deux that third parties should just let play out. (I’ve been involved in, again, more than my fair share of them.) But seeing my old opponent/friend jffoster step into the quicksand of trying to counter religious certainty disingenuously disguised as philosophical skepticism and deceptively peppered with intellectuals’ names, with his own breadth and depth of linguistic anthropological knowledge prompts me to offer him a bit of advice:Put down your drink, back out of the bar, there’s nothing here for you except prolonged torture by hair-splitting, quote-parsing, inevitable Scripture-waving and, finally, eschatological mumbo-jumbo. Be secure in the knowledge that America–however churchy its citizens–is a secular society. Take a walk down a big-city street, or a drive through the heartland, or have an ice-cream cone in a small town; the rules and customs by which most people interact most with most other people are secular. I haven’t seen shaming stocks in the village square in years, nor police ticketing people on Sunday for not being in church.PS: Unreligious as I am, I do think, however, that the Illinois adjunct was treated a little harshly. Somebody who makes a meagre living saying and writing lots and lots of words dismissed because of a slip-up involving rather tepid e-mail that some students found “offensive”? Please. Thicken thy skins, people. (The Church-State deal is another matter.)

jffoster - July 21, 2010 at 5:33 pm

Hello Goxewu. I’ve had far easier times trying to explain things to most freshmen Mr. Bloom, and I really have other things to do. Thank you, I’ll take your advice. And from what I can figure out, I agree with you about the treatment of the adjunct.

jffoster - July 21, 2010 at 5:35 pm

Oops, sorry, shouold read “…freshmen than to Mr. Bloom”. I can see a can or nun buoy half a mile down the river but have trouble proofing on this comment software.

gplm2000 - July 22, 2010 at 5:03 pm

I wonder how many of the posters displaying a hate message for the Catholic Church are, first-in-line, to promote the teaching of islam? Maybe favor building a mosque/mineret at the WTC site? Just asking.

softshellcrab - July 23, 2010 at 6:02 pm

They had no business to fire this guy for giving a thoughtful and honest response to an email. He was just replying to his students and explaining his views on Catholic theology, the subject of the course.