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Challenging the Presentation Paradigm with the 1/1/5 Rule

April 19, 2011, 3:00 pm

By Mark Sample

Death by PowerPointA measure of how bad presentations in academia can be is the sheer number of tips and strategies we’ve suggested on ProfHacker, in a recurring series called Challenging the Presentation Paradigm. One of these techniques I’ve used in my classes for several years is the Pecha Kucha format. With 20 slides at 20 seconds per slide, a Pecha Kucha is, as Jason writes, necessarily “SHORT, INFORMAL, and CREATIVE.”

However, as I’ve found out the hard way, a Pecha Kucha format does not necessarily mean students will avoid text-heavy slides, one of the major causes of DBP (Death By PowerPoint). That’s why I’ve begun implementing what I call the 1/1/5 rule for all student presentations. Here’s how I describe the 1/1/5 rule to my students:

In addition to the time constraint of the Pecha Kucha, your presentation must also follow the 1/1/5 rule. That is, you must have at least one image per slide, you can use each exact image only once, and you should add no more than five words per slide. The formal constraints of this rigid format call for discipline, focus, practice, and paradoxically, creativity.

The 1/1/5 rule is just a small tweak, but it has made all the difference. While student Pecha Kuchas formerly ran the risk of containing too much text, or tempting the presenters to read off the screen instead of talking to the audience, now the presentations are almost certainly guaranteed to be visual aids complementing the talk, rather than overwhelming it.

Have you tried similar techniques in your classrooms? What other ways have you managed to make student presentations more engaging?

(Death by PowerPoint image courtesy of Flickr user alice_c / Creative Commons Licensed)

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  • bitterlemon

    At a major conference in my discipline, I recently used a LateX based presentation, for the first time. This was a result of my decision to abandon Microsoft and move to Linux and open source software, primarily for ethical reasons, supplemented by the Vistaarghh Vistaster http://bit.ly/fgfaJh.
    At first I used the Powerpoint clone in OpenOffice, but abandoned it as useless MS baggage, that I had been frustrated with for quite some time.

    Trying out all the new possibilities, I tried out “Beamer” software, which comes with LyX, a processor for those of us who are technically challenged regarding LateX. This resulted in a presentation that was well formatted, beautiful text, all without the finger-painting necessary in powerpoint. It made me focus on the content rather than the gimmickry of presentation. My presentation had very few images, and only those strictly relevant to my talk, no more than 3 points to a slide, which are very well organized, so the audience could focus on each point by turn.

    The feedback that I got was that my presentation was easy to follow, people were interested, and got what I wanted to communicate. I think all these “rules” of presentation, some of which you perpetuate, are more suited to marketing than academia. The use of images, bars graphs, and all the attention grabbing stuff is necessary only when you want to camouflage the lack of content, or as a way to spice up something utterly inane.

    All the other presentations had coloured fonts, bullet points, backgrounds, and images, few of which were necessary. Even though I was a bit apprehensive, this was one of the most satisfying presentations I’ve had: sparse, succinct and elegant.

    P.S. I realize I might have come out sounding as a Linux zealot, but I’m far from being a tech-whiz, just an aging social scientist. I was pleasantly surprised by how user friendly, and supportive Linux can be. This move was easier than moving to a Mac, which I had tried but found confusing and overrated.

    The software I used are:
    http://www.linuxmint.com/
    http://www.lyx.org/

  • chrisboyatzis

    As a long-time prof and fairly regular use of PPT, I’m curious: Do the proponents of such “rules” have any empirical data to support the rules’ alleged value or superiority (over other rules, or the absence of any rules at all)? I’d welcome any evidence–especially from careful classroom research–that such changes have “made all the difference.” Such evidence could be a real contribution to SoTL.

  • ephotog

    A powerpoint feature that should be used more often is to press the B or W key. The screen will turn to black or white temporarily. To return to slides, press the key again. This makes it easy to show slides just when needed.

  • http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~jweiss Dr. Jillian T. Weiss

    I used to use such a rule, that is, when I used to require student powerpoint presentations. I would require no more than three bullet points per slide, with no more than 10 words per bullet point, and they were not permitted to read the slide. Then they used notes to read from, of course. I dropped the whole enterprise as an exercise in frustration. But I like your idea of no more than five words per slide.

  • lkisselburgh

    So, 20 slides, 20 pictures, and only 5 words for each slide. This sounds an awful lot like a primary school picture book to me. Why do we insist on dumbing down our visual aids for presentations? I’ve seen some fascinating presentations that weren’t in 1st grade picture book format, and my interest level never wavered.

  • landrumkelly

    I tell my students that it is up to them to make the presentation meaningful and interesting. PowerPoint cannot save a fundamentally flawed presentation. The first presentation that I saw using PowerPoint (in the 1990s) was one of the worst presentations I have ever seen–and it was delivered by an educational consultant.

    There is nothing so powerful as a good idea or a good question to get persons to think. PowerPoint definitely cannot ever take the place of genuinely thoughtful analysis and a questioning attitude. We remain enamored of technology after all these years, for reasons that continue to puzzle and astound me.

    Garbage may look prettier on PowerPoint, but it is still garbage.

    Landrum Kelly, Jr.
    Livingstone College

  • jabberwocky12

    @chrisboyatzis I agree that so many of these “rules” (like the 30/20/10 rules, etc) are just arbitrary numbers. You can follow all of these rules, and still have a terrible presentation.

    Some things are more complex than others, and require a more detailed explanation. Some things work best with an animation, some best with a line drawing, some best with a quotation (of more than 5 or 10 words), etc.

    Just about the only guide you can have is to view the presentation, in the presenting room if possible, from the back, and see if it’s clear and easy to read. Also, if you have something complex, don’t show it all at once, but build it up slowly, and explain it as you go along.

    That’s not PowerPoint – that common-sense teaching.

    After that, you’re pretty much on your own.

  • austinbarry

    Part of the problem with slide presentations in general is that they have become a deliverable in their own right. Someone who missed the presentation will ask for the slides, and expect to follow the presentation without the spoken parts. This means that the spoken parts become redundant, and this leads to Death by Powerpoint.

  • http://www.briancroxall.net Brian Croxall

    Similar to the Oulipo, artificial constraints to the composition process can force you to rethink how you might go about presenting information that you would never think otherwise. There’s nothing magic about the particulars of the constraints that Mark is suggesting, I believe. Instead, it’s an opportunity for students to re-evaluate what is necessary for their presentation.

    And it’s certainly not easy to write a 1st-grade picture book. Where the Wild Things Are has just 10 sentences, but those 10 sentences are effective and to the point.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=588186317 Gigi Johnson

    Enjoy the “show me evidence” post earlier. For me, the question is how the tool impacts how we tell the story. PowerPoint implies an 8-1/2″x11″, landscape world, with headers and specific rituals. It becomes an unspoken contract that the world is made of bullet points, Microsoft graphics, clip art, and its various default layouts. It develops its own rituals along with the class, and student begin to expect that it will carry the load in terms of engagement with and informing the audience.

    PowerPoint becomes much more toxic when people use it–and its defaults–to be the basics of a webinar or online class. Or when we stand up in front of a large audience and drone on about static details that participants can just read (in public or in a class). Many presenters (and teachers) take its affordances for granted and assume they have value by reading along instead of varying the audio versus the visual. Many have forgotten the art of storytelling in a world of canned content.

    We can try to be intriguing within PowerPoint or the Google, OpenOffice, or Linux equivalents. Or we can encourage students and peers to try the metaphors of other tools. Keynote brings in different assumptions and metaphors of visuals, media, and transitions. A plain old whiteboard can be a powerful group collaboration and presentation tool. Webspiration can be used to bring the class into concept mapping and can be used by student teams to present. VUE helps students explain and connect web-based data. My students recently have gotten excited about Prezi.com, where that same whiteboard metaphor can be done with graphics and the metaphor of zooming in and out. Data visualization has become a “big new thing,” with abundant new tools.

    My challenge with PowerPoint is that we stop questioning how to tell an engaging story…until we see another storyteller weave magic and bring us new metaphors in how to present and engage.

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    @AustinBarry – I do think this is a problem for presentations—turning them into deliverable content unto themselves. That’s one of the reasons I like the Pecha Kucha format: it encourages students to think of the presentation as a visual aid rather than the meat of the presentation itself.

  • bergtrom

    For myself and my students I provide simple rules:

    1. no font smaller than 24 point, with headings no smaller than 32 point
    2. stick with one font style
    3. for wordy slides (ones with more than 4 bullets), split the slide into 2 or more slides as needed to meet the ‘point’ rule.
    4. For slides that still look text-heavy, animate the slide so that each bullet show up as you are presenting
    -use graphics to inform (students presenting a biology slide show probably do not need graphics to enhance a slide…)

    I provide a 3-page instruction sheet with my rules and with screen shots on using PowerPoint’s basic features. I provide the phone number to our help line for even more instruction on more advanced features such as animating slide text, but plan another page for v.2 of the instructions!

    For enforcement (and more interesting presentations), share your rubric with students and even require submission prior to presentation,. The instructor or a TA can quickly scan presentations for major violations and give the students a chance to revise.

  • jabberwocky12

    Although I’m not so keen on the ‘rules,’ I must admit that it’s far better than having the “Academic Karaoke” that I seen (I can’t remember where I first heard that term, but it’s apt.

  • http://www.briancroxall.net Brian Croxall

    I agree. When I did my first Pecha Kucha in January, I was intrigued to discover how simultaneous the development of talk and slide had to be. I couldn’t know what I would say necessarily until the slide had been created and vice versa.

  • http://www.briancroxall.net Brian Croxall

    Love these ideas, Mark. Can’t wait to give it a try the next time I teach.

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    @lkisselburgh – I’m not sure why the goal of a clear, concise presentation bothers you. None of the constraints I suggest preclude a deeply rich and fascinating presentation. As any parents who read “1st grade picture books” to their children know, such books are often bold, provocative, and compelling—even to the adults reading them.

    I agree that it’s possible to give fascinating presentations full of text, graphs, and charts. But it takes a lot of practice. It’s not a skill undergraduates innately possess. Most professors don’t possess it, in fact. The constraints of the Pecha Kucha, along with my own 1/1/5 rule, in essence create a smaller, more manageable stage for novice presenters to begin to get a handle on their presentation skills.

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    Thanks for the tip on the B and W keys! Do you know whether this works on timed presentations too? That is, while it turn the screen black temporarily AND stop the timer temporarily?

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    chrisboyatzis – I don’t have any empirical data per se, though I can say on the whole my students get better grades on their presentations than they used to, even though my expectations haven’t changed. Instead of thinking of these constraints as “rules,” it helps to think of them as scaffolding, providing guidance to the students. And what’s wrong with providing students with more guidance?

    It’s still possible to screw up (some of the students still do), but it’s not as likely to happen as when you give students no guidance at all.

  • http://www.rogerwhitson.net/ Roger Whitson

    It reminds me of Ezra Pound’s “In the Station at the Metro” or Haikus or most of the work of William Carlos Williams. One of the Britts here forces his students to write an entire essay in the form of a Twitter post: http://britts.lcc.gatech.edu/blog/2010/12/feed-texting-twitter-and-the-student-2-0/

    I feel that many students have too much to say, not too little, and forcing them to write precisely teaches them to edit properly.

  • cambler

    This discussion reminds me of Tufte’s The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint in which he makes the point (among others) that individuals in fact can and do routintely absorb substantial amounts of data (e.g. baseball stats, weather, etc., etc.). The issue for making compelling slide presentations seems to me really to be about having the slides illustrate, illuminate, and reinforce the presentation. What is deadly boring is the presentation that involves simply reading the slides. The “seems to me” in the previous sentence is telling however. Given how thoroughly such presentations have taken over the business of teaching, reporting, etc. it would be interesting to know what the research tells us–if there is any.

  • tgroleau

    I learned how true this was when my statistics students told me they had stopped reading the text because my slides told them everything they needed! In my defense, I had many detailed examples in my slides that I didn’t show in class. I’d set my presentation to skip over the detail slides and I’d work the examples out “live” on the board. Usually only a 1/3 to 1/2 of the slides were actually shown in class. Then I’d make all the slides available on the web after class so that students would have a neater record of the examples.

    It seemed like a good plan but I learned that a) students resented the fact that my slides weren’t available before class and b) many students (too many) zoned out during my examples because they thought they could get them off the slides later. I could live with a) but b) became a learning barrier.

  • dkompare

    We should practice what we preach, as much as possible, as well. I rarely have presentation assignments for my undergrads, but I do use a lot of Keynote in my lecture-based classes. I made the jump from PP to KN last year, and while they’re about 85% identical, there’s enough difference in workflow and design to give KN the edge.

    I haven’t incorporated Pecha Kucha in my own lectures; I like to be able to riff on my slides as need be. However, I’ve been very strict adhering to limits on text (no more than six words per slide, no smaller than 32 pts), and leveraging the power of images, sound and video as much as possible. I also no longer make slides available after lectures, as they’re not meant to stand alone! I’ve tinkered with doing a few lectures as video podcasts (dead simple in KN, by the way), but my general thought is that the slides and lecture are symbiotic and of the moment.

  • jvputten

    chrisboyatzis wrote:

    “As a long-time prof and fairly regular use of PPT, I’m curious: Do the proponents of such “rules” have any empirical data to support the rules’ alleged value or superiority (over other rules, or the absence of any rules at all)? I’d welcome any evidence–especially from careful classroom research–that such changes have “made all the difference.”

    Here’s one example of high quality research on learning outcomes using Powerpoint by a highly-respected researcher:

    Richard E. Mayer and Cheryl I. Johnson. Revising the Redundancy Principle in Multimedia Learning. Journal of Educational Psychology, 2008, Vol. 100, No. 2, 380–386.

    Abstract:
    College students viewed a short multimedia PowerPoint presentation consisting of 16 narrated slides explaining lightning formation (Experiment 1) or 8 narrated slides explaining how a car’s braking system works (Experiment 2). Each slide appeared for approximately 8 –10 s and contained a diagram along with 1–2 sentences of narration spoken in a female voice. For some students (the redundant group), each slide also contained 2–3 printed words that were identical to the words in the narration, conveyed the main event described in the narration, and were placed next to the corresponding portion of the diagram. For other students (the nonredundant group), no on-screen text was presented. Results showed that the group whose presentation included short redundant phrases within the diagram outperformed the nonredundant group on a subsequent test of retention (d 0.47 and 0.70, respectively) but not on transfer. Results are explained by R. E. Mayer’s (2001, 2005a) cognitive theory of multimedia learning, in which the redundant text served to guide the learner’s attention without priming extraneous processing.

  • lpress

    > What other ways have you managed to make student presentations more engaging?

    Here is one. We often use labeled images in slides. I like to present the slide first without the labels. Then pause and ask the students if they can figure out what the labels are, what the slide is “saying.” That focuses their attention, then I reveal the labels in the next slide. This can be used for stand-alone images or illustrated bullet points. You can see an example of this in slides 14 and 15 of the presentation in this topic module:

    http://cis275topics.blogspot.com/2011/04/modular-it-literacy-course-for-internet.html

    Chrisboyatzis asked about empirical research on the effect of various PowerPoint techniques on comprehension and retention. This technique — delayed revealing of labels — and others could be tested empirically.

    Anyone want to collaborate on a distributed, multi-class experiment

  • johnbarnes

    It’s a basic creativity tactic to impose an extra rule (or a few of them) and see what difference it makes. It’s even more effective if you tell the students “we are playing by different rules this time not because they are the way things should always be, but because playing by them will teach you to adapt to different situations.” Very often I do simulations; prepare your Power Point, bring two paper copies of the slides. One is for me. The other is, SURPRISE: we’ll pretend the machine is broken and all you have is the whiteboard. (This is NOT a graded event). Now go home and rewrite your slides as if this might happen next time. Bring in paper copies & have slides ready to go. Quick post (I find that’s less intimidating than “paper”): What difference did being ready for disaster make in your presentation?

    Or, rule imposed a few times: explain a graph. Explain what each axis means and pick at least 5 unusual points. Point to them as you go. Not because that’s the right way to explain graphs for everyone for all eternity, but to see what difference it makes.

    Or (Fun, do not grade!) the “slides to be delivered” assignment. I give you five slides without the presentation, you explain them, then compose a short oral complaint to the author of the presentation ….

    DBPPt comes mostly to those who seek death; the people who really don’t want to speak in public at all. Mixing it up so that they can’t escape into their notes, into the screen, or anywhere else is scary, weird, difficult, and the way they learn to be in front of an audience. But there’s no rule I can or should impose in the classroom that will always be true wherever students speak; the point is to stretch them, not to give them always-works doctrine.

  • lpress

    JVPutten wrote of an experiment in which

    > For some students (the redundant group), each slide also contained 2–3 printed words

    That is close to the experiment I suggested, but my treatment is different in that I show the slide without the labels, pause for discussion of the slide, then reveal the labels. It takes more time my way, but it wakes the students up.

    Larry

  • lpress

    Have you got a link to the full text of this paper?

  • nacrandell

    The professor is the teacher and the PowerPoint presentation is the tool for the teacher. The boring presentations are created when teaching is abdicated to the tool and rules are slavishly followed.

    PowerPoint in a classroom has three functions:

    1) Summarize the lecture/topic/presentation – Replace the chalkboard and white board
    a) Write the entire outline on a PowerPoint presentation so the class can follow along
    b) Use general headings to keep the students focused on the topic

    2) Highlight the individual points – Replace the slide projector and overhead projector
    a) Localize a point
    i) Show a map of Manhattan and then inset a map of a ‘Little Italy’ to illustrate area discussed
    ii) Show Van Gogh’s complete ‘Starry Night’ and an enlarge area to demonstrate his use of applying paint.
    b) Compare the work with a previous or recent rendition
    i) Compare the forts of Vauban with modern military installations
    ii) Compare David’s ‘Death of Murat’ with Michelangelo’s Pieta

    3) Tell a quick story – Replace the filmstrip machine
    a) Use existing media to highlight a process, cultural understanding, and event
    b) Create new media to highlight and support the lecture

    Guidelines:
    1) Long quote – use a separate slide
    2) Try to include no more than seven bullet points (If the sentences for the bullets run long for technical reasons, then try to find a natural break and create multiple slides.)
    3) Layout the slides so the transition is easy on the eyes. (If the slide headers and text are moved from the top to bottom or from right to left on each slide, the audience will have difficulty focusing when the new slide appears
    4) Use no more than 1-3 font styles
    5) Use no more than 1-3 font points
    6) Keep animation simple and do not introduce a quote with the one letter at a time animation option with the typewriter sound!
    7) Review your presentation beforehand in the back of the hall or room and adjust if needed.
    8) Use the presentation to support your lecture and not be your lecture.

  • hansonjb

    tips on using PowerPoint and on how to use PowerPoint from my public speaking class:
    http://www.whitman.edu/rhetoric/80-110/index.htm#_Toc271883907

  • nacrandell

    One issue with the tips:

    In the ‘Meat Production is Waging War’ slide with two pictures (One a calf and the other a nuclear mushroom cloud) and four bullet points, the illustrations have monopolized the slide area and have reduced the readability of the text by forcing small sentences to be interrupted and placed on two lines. Unless the slide is discussing art or the picture is transmitting the idea, the graphics should be regulated as support to the text and the short text should not require more than one line.

  • gpage

    I agree with a lot of both Mark and Brian’s replies. One other aspect of this is that this shifts the presentation from using the powerpoint as a splurge or crutch to lean on to using it as an aid when necessary. For my presentations that are under 10-15 minutes, I rarely use more then 3 content slides with 2-3 very short bullets each. I use them as concept maps or a short outline and then fill in the cracks during the presentation. They are ugly as sin in a utilitarian way, but my objective is to aid my spiel and it has been successful in that regard. To put it another way; to me, powerpoint is a tool, and as a tool, I’ve replaced writing on a chalk/whiteboard during a presentation. Anything I would have written on the board while presenting is what gets put into the powerpoint and generally nothing more or less. Ymmv, best of luck.

  • missoularedhead

    I don’t do the ’5 words’, but I do have an image, and a limit of 3 bullet points. I also give each slide a title, sometimes illustrative, sometimes a pun that they don’t get unless they listen, and I really do try to get hit each point in order.
    I also start each presentation with a slide with ‘recap’ questions from the last class, to reinforce learning. I use these recap questions to formulate the class tests.

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    @nacrandell – Thanks for your thorough list of tips and guidelines. I do want to clarify that my 1/1/5 rule was a rule for student presentations. Faculty should have their own set of priorities, guided first and foremost by what it is they want students to learn that day in class.

  • raza_khan

    As a faculty member who has has his students do a vocal powerpoint presentations on chemistry topics for the last 12 years, here are some of my findings

    1. Yes, PowerPoint slides matter. They are the students’ notecard that every one is looking. I have a rule that no more than 4 bulleted lines, no complete sentences and 30 t0 40 seconds per slide rule. I do not allow timed transition to the next slide. The students are given a clicker which takes care of that.

    2. However, as a vocal powerpoint presentation is not all about powerpoint. In fact, what I have found, that may be the least valued part of the presentation. What matters are
    Content
    Practice
    Time
    Dress (yes, my students are expected to dress professionally!)
    Group effort (the projects are group effort done OUTSIDE the class timings)
    and then comes the visuals and content on the powerpoint.

    Of course there are other things that matter in terms of the scores such as eye contact, references, etc….

    To give you an example, I saw probably one of the best powerpoint by a faculty in a recent conference but the seminar presentation was the most horredous one as the speaker was completely ill-prepared to say the least.

    Raza
    _________________________
    Raza Khan, Ph.D.

  • ephotog

    http://presentationsoft.about.com/od/powerpointtipsandfaqs/qt/812resume-show.htm has this info:
    “If the slide show has been set with automatic timings, … right click on the current slide and choose Pause from the shortcut menu. This pauses the slide show with the current slide still on screen.”
    To start up again: “… right click on the current slide and choose Resume from the shortcut menu.”

  • http://www.samplereality.com Mark Sample

    I just tested the B/W key tip on a timed presentation, and it works great. Pressing B, for example, will turn the slideshow black AND pause it, if it’s an automatic or timed presentation. Pressing B again will resume the slideshow, and the timer will resume right were you left it. Very useful trick.

  • AjaanRob

    I agree with the above article and technique used for the task. I teach English Language Learners (ELL’s) They will overload PP for thesis/dissertation defense. So I also teach a technique to reduce the amount of slides and info on the slides time and visual learning patterns. I have also introduced: http://prezi.com/ I have been very successful with this next generation Power point product. I apply the same rules as above but modify to field of study. Limits on words, media, bullets (I dislike bullets altogether). The charts and graphs have to be clear and only point out key aspects of research. Less is best. I try not to use PP any longer and have moved to Prezi for any oral presentations.

  • dpmccain

    Thank you for sharing…I am constantly in revision on my own presentations, and use the hints and suggestions from The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs and Presentation Zen to keep my presentations dynamic and engaging…( most of the time).

    I have found, however, that some information needs to be on the screen, some of my students will not read their textbook, or listen to me (sigh) but will write down key points if I put them on the screen accompanied by an image.

    The next time I develop a presentation, I will definitely use the 1/1/5 and note the result. This may mean breaking chapter information further, and more quizzes…we’ll see.

    Additionally, I will also share the 1/1/5 for those students who will be developing PowerPoint for their group presentation (final project).

    Thank you.

  • abruzos

    Recently, I attended a talk by a fellow professor. She was reading from her notes, which she had kindly photocopied and distributed between the audience, and also copied and pasted letter for letter in a long, wordy PowerPoint presentation.

  • joemontibello

    This paper isn’t freely available, but here’s a link to a service that may be able to get you to an available copy (paper or electronic) from your local library: http://bit.ly/revisingredundancy

  • electronicmuse

    Incorporation of social media is a key theme when someone elects to make it a key theme, which apparently is what Mr. Maeda has done, at least per this article.

    My slant on social media is not negative, only realistic, particularly regarding their extremely low bandwidths, which casts doubts on the advisability of their use to lead people.

    Part of being either a poor or effective communicator lies in choices of the modalities of communications used. Then, of course, there are indeed effective, as well as ineffective communicators, as judged quite independently from the means they have chosen.

    In this context, I have little interest in someone’s personal skills; I wouldn’t speculate, nor do I have any realistic way to assess Mr. Maeda’s communications skills. However, it is not difficult to know about communications media, and my comments are about social media specifically.

    Even the best communicator will find that a large percentage of well-known means of “communicating” will be truncated by the low bandwidth online medium.

  • http://www.facebook.com/andrew.wentink Andrew Wentink

    Thought some of you might find this of interest……

  • http://www.facebook.com/andrew.wentink Andrew Wentink

    Thought this might be of interest…

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