‘Are You Guys, Or Are You Girls?’

April 29, 2011, 3:46 pm

Check out our story today on the conflicting messages colleges get from the U.S. Department of Education on whether they should count male practice players as participants on women’s teams. I’ve heard from several people today who were struck by Jeff Orleans’s comment at the end of the story:

“They’re not intercollegiate athletes,” Orleans said of the male practice players, who often scrimmage against female players, particularly in women’s basketball, as training partners. “So if you count them as intercollegiate athletes, I think you’re screwing up the numbers. If you count them as women, I think you’re really screwing up the numbers.”

“It just seems so basic,” Mr. Orleans continued. “Are you guys or are you girls?”

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Guest

It is time to phase out HCBU’s — and soon. While no one can claim they didn’t serve a useful purpose at one time in the past, no one in touch with the performance evidence can suggest that they serve a positive purpose today. Their performance is an embarrassment to all involved. I have no problem should some of these institutions wish to preserve themselves but they need to do so without the exceptional public largess that now makes their existence possible.
marktropolis

Let’s be careful about throwing accusations of racism around. First off, diversity initiative have been, and continue to be, related to increasing diversity in institutions that have been historically white. HBUCs don’t have the same problem.

When you have an example of a white student being denied admission to an HBCU, call me. I know for a fact that many HBCUs have in fact expended institutional resources to increase their diversity. So, in reality, your accusation is false, both in terms of what I will call it’s “baiting” quality, but also because you don’t have the facts.
marktropolis

I think you need to check your data. Your critique (related to graduation rates and loan defaults) are the same one’s aimed at the for-profit sector. Secondly, apart from places like Morehouse and Spelman, HBCUs have historically been some of the cheapest places to go (in terms of student costs). And most of your critiques have more to do with the fact that these institutions *are* under-resourced.

And I didn’t see Gasman “pretend it isn’t there” but rather attempt to make a case that HBCUs should be supported – in better and different ways.
marktropolis

I agree – phase out HBCUs, as soon as HWI are phased out. When students of color have as good a chance to get into any of the top 50 colleges in this country as white students, I’ll shut up.

And please define “exceptional public largess.” Last I checked, the CEOs of the largest for-profit universities are making over $10M annually, and 90% of that income comes from federally guaranteed student loans and Pell Grants. I’d call that “exceptional public largess.”
betterschool

Here are the loan repayment rates and average debt load for higher performing HBCU’s:

Coppin State University, 23, $11,958.00
Morgan State University, 23, $14,765.00
U of Maryland, Eastern Shore, 31,$12,433.00
Bethune-Cookman, 15, $12,890.00
South Carolina State, 17, $15,583.00
Savannah State, 20, $12,511.00
Delaware State, 21, $15,316.00
North Carolina Central, 22, $20,367.00
Norfolk State, 24, $13,325.00
North Carolina A&T, 27, $12,036.00
Howard, 32, $31,789.00
Florida A&M, 32, $18,804.00
Hampton, 42, $17,377.00

>> Average percent Repay and Debt Load – 25%, $16,088.77

Large for-profits (recall, of the 1,000, some serve only elite and specialized audiences. Capella University, for example, has a default rate of less than 4% — better than 90% of state universities and private colleges).

Strayer, 25, $14,908.00
Kaplan, 28, $7,458.00
ITT Education, 32, $10,608.00
DeVry, 35, $13,373.00
Career Education, 36, $10,775.00
Apollo Group, 44, $13,324.00

>> Average percent Repay and Debt Load – 32%, $11,034.29

This post is really for interested parties. You seem to be driven more by ideology that facts.
kopernikus

Of course they are segregated. Any physical separation is segregation. The author does not want to admit this because segregations became a bad word due to our peculiar history. The HWI schools still have segregated Greek organizations. Students segregate themselves in countless ways: race, money, drugs, sports, course major. If Black students want to immerse themselves in their own culture, then so be it.
marktropolis

Yeah, I hate facts. Please cite the source for your data; I’m curious how you define “higher performing HBCU’s” and if you used the same definition for your list of for-profits.

One of the reasons HBCUs have such bad numbers tracks back to the lack of resources. As the Education Sector has pointed out, when “default aversion” strategies are employed, HBCUs have significantly lowered their default rates (see http://www.educationsector.org/publications/lowering-student-loan-default-rates). But, “Their story is one of teamwork, collaboration, and relationship-building and proves that when institutions are armed with the tools, resources, support, and commitment needed to lower default rates, they can do so successfully.” Meaning, if the support is there (Gasman’s argument) those numbers start to look better.

But to suggest that HBCUs shouldn’t be in business because their students struggle to pay off their loans? Is that your argument? If it all hinges on “double standards, polite winks, and outright hypocrisy” then perhaps you should take a look at Wall Street. Or maybe the GOP.

The point is that HBCUs have, and continue to, serve an important function – a function important to African Americans. And accusations of segregation are ill-informed, and ignore the history and function of race in higher education access and success.
Guest

MARKTROPOLIS – I don’t know if you are willing to pay betterschools to educate you but, as you probably say to your students, sooner or later, you need to learn to do your own digging.

All of the above data betterschools refers to and much more is available from NCES and other ED departments. BTW: The data below (or above) reflect 2-year models, 3-year models are in the works. Let me know if you need help. I can link you to the detailed ED spreadsheets. They are easy to sort and read. From your perspective, it looks like you have a rude awakening in store. These data seem to go out of their way to avoid the really bad HCBU’s and do not mention that the majority of the for-profits are much lower than the big ones represented here.

But I guess we all know HBCU’s are terribly inefficient. The question is, do we need them in spite of how much they are costing us? Let’s see . . .

- HBCU’s have high loan default rates (which may or may not result in a net cost to the taxpayer – the jury is still out and contested), are inefficient, get hundreds of millions in property, sales, and use tax breaks, are handed large numbers of federal grants, are eligible for state student incentives, and pay no income taxes.

>> Yet, we can make a case that we need them nonetheless because they serve a disadvantaged sector of the underclass.

- For-profits, have high loan default rates (which may or may not result in a net cost to the taxpayer – the jury is still out and contested), are highly efficient, pay billions in property use, and sales taxes, are handed no federal grants, are not eligible for state student incentives, and pay billions in income taxes.

>> Yet, we can make a case that we need them nonetheless because they serve a disadvantaged sector of the underclass.

What would impartial, well-informed minds say about this? Those who have their minds made up will change the subject or pick on an immaterial side issue.

Public universities have been good to me. I love them. But I think we are obligated to rise above our self-interests, material or petty.
not4nothin

Gosh, those youngsters sure look like they’re having fun bouncing around the library and pitching paper plates in the stadium…

And here I am, stranded in Brooklyn, a short walk and a subway ride away from everything the best city in the world can offer.

I’m jealous. Wish I was anyone of them. ;-(
http://twitter.com/chattyprof Ellen Bremen

So nice to hear that I’m not alone; however, I am envious that you had the inquisitive question. I received a bribe, which I recently blogged about. I continue to hammer on “Check your grades often” and “Tell me what your grade goal is EARLY.” Ellen Bremen http://bit.ly/g7JxA1
claritygolden

It’s kind of a sad state of affairs, isn’t it? I have a transfer student from a community college who’s never gotten below a B on an assignment…when questioned it turns out she’s never had to write a paper of any length before! (And that’s why the C she got on the paper in my class was so traumatic for her.) So I think it’s a problem of a system that pushes students through without demanding much of them, and then they get to a place that does demand something and they just aren’t sure how to succeed. As you say, all we can do is offer extra help and hope they take it. Really it’s a problem that is best tackled institutionally, I think.
eacowan

Is reality dawning upon some students? Did they actually achive grades of A and/or B and nothing else, and for little effort? I’m talking about the public schools, of course, and the products of these public schools end up in first-year classes at college where they still expect to receive similar grades. In this, they are abetted by the new “corporate”-style of administrators who merely count heads and money and who look askance upon professors who report grades below a B. (At a state university near me, one from which I am now retired, a colleague reported to me that the college administration had sent every professor a memo specifically directing them NOT TO GIVE F’s!) Oh, yes, and as for the administrators I must also ask: Is reality dawning upon them? (Likely not…) –E.A.C.
newyorkyankees

I had a student recently who was absent for half of the semester, and who I caught cheating on an exam ask me if I could give her some extra credit because she needed to pass the course to graduate.

I explained to her that she was asking me to overlook her overall work product, and the cheating, and this was grossly unfair to the other students who honestly satisfied the course requirements. The grade stood and she took the course with another instructor. I don’t know how she did the second time around.

The thing I find most ironic is that some students (not all) will get mad at you when you stand your ground and present all of the evidence showing why they deservedly failed.
akprof

I have never once had a student tell me that they were less than an A or B student – yet when I look at their transcript, they often have Cs – even Ds and occasional Fs. Makes me wonder if they know their alphabet. When I point out that they got Cs in their course work the previous semester, they are shocked. Why would they ever think that I’d check their records or talk to their prior instructors, my colleagues!?
drnels

Usually I respond to all of these emails with “This is too important to discuss in this form. Come to my office so we can talk in detail.”
akprof

Do they come to talk to you?
ssramsey

About two years ago, a young woman enrolled in my writing course complained that I was “picking on her” because I kept returning her papers with “Please redo” written on it. Like so many others, she believed that she was an honor student and really had no idea that her papers were horribly written. After class one day, I explained to her that the essays lacked clarity, focused and were unorganized. Instead of taking another look at her work, the poor thing cried racism!!! She went to my Department Head and complained, but never once did she show anyone one of the papers she had submitted.

Now my Department Head was really something too because rather than ask to see what the young lady was turning in, she simply allowed her to change classes in the middle of the semester. There was never any discussion or suggestions that the student seek assistance in the writing lab, just simply change her class because she cried. Now I ask, how did the actions of the Department Head help the student, especially at a state school that prides itself on cultivating leaders?
5768

You might consider clauses in your syllabus which indicate grades are based solely on points earned during the semester and which specifically state that extra-credit is not an option. When students ask questions you have addressed in the syllabus, indicate “read the syllabus” and do not allow them to engage you on what has been judiciously put in writing previously by yourself. To get them to read the syllabus, give an early-semester quiz over policies you wish to emphasize. Occasionally, I also give a bonus point on a quiz asking how many points there have been accrued to date in the class, as well as how many more are left in the semester. I expect students to calculate their own percentages at any time and my syllabus says I will not do it for them. I curve but once only, and that at the end of the semester, and will not leapfrog a low percentage student over a higher percentage. Additionally, my syllabus indicates that if students wish to discuss a grade with me, they must first demonstrate they have performed the percentage calculation. This emphasizes the objective nature of the grade and puts an end to false subjective hopes that they will be able to “negotiate” something with me by “seeing” me. Granted, I teach not English but chemistry, and do not give regrades of composition papers; it would seem, however, there must be a way to articulate the finite nature of the grading process in English courses as well so as not to leave oneself open to negotiation. I know my English colleagues face similar difficulties as yourself, and I urge them to be firm and not err on the side of being ‘accommodating’–unless accomnodations are in the syllabus (and the fewer, the better, IMHO). Having been black and white about my policies has virtually ended the endless litany of complaints based on false student hope which I faced when I first began teaching and wanted to please everyone–at the expense of any higher ethic in my practice. Good luck!
rhondagoolsby

There are many school districts in the K-12 setting do not allow teachers to fail students without intensive interventions and documentation of several instances of parent contact. With that, many K-12 teachers dole out 70s rather than failing students. In the end, everyone suffers.
cweaverking

Thank you for reminding me of just one of the reasons that I decided to quit teaching several years ago. I had been teaching “part-time” at a number of universities and colleges for about 12 years and was getting more and more discouraged every semester. The students all felt that they “deserved” A’s, even the ones who didn’t come to class but perhaps twice a semester. I have a million horror stories as do all of you. I was offered bribes for higher grades; I was threatened once; and the list goes on.

But the main reason I finally said enough was because I felt that the people at the top of the academic heap were not supporting the teaching staff. I taught at one community college and was given a handbook of rules and regulations on the day I was hired along with the edict that I was to follow all the rules in the handbook to the letter. So when a student plagiarized from a book I was very familiar with, I dutifully (although I would have rather handled it more delicately between just the student and myself) reported it to the Provost as my handbook firmly stated I was required to do. The Provost “went ballistic” at me because I was “wasting his precious time, …. don’t bother me with ridiculous unimportant student misbehavior…” and so on. Guess he hadn’t read his handbook. Oh yeah, and my phone call to him that was such a nuisance? It was “making him late to lunch with
his wife.”

At another school I taught at, one student and his family complained to the Provost because I gave him a B- so I had to take all my supporting documents (I learned early on to carefully document and keep track of all student-teacher interactions and discussions) to the Provost’s Office to “explain myself”. I pulled out all of my paperwork and documentation and showed that I really should have awarded the student a final grade of a C, but that I gave him a higher grade because he did at least TRY to do the assigned work, and frankly, because I HAD thought that he was a good kid who just hadn’t gotten a better education earlier in his life. Those of you who have stuck with teaching are living saints in my opinion. But as for me, shudder, I am sooo glad to be out of there.
iteachpsych

claritygolden said: “I have a transfer student from a community college who’s never gotten below a B on an assignment…when questioned it turns out she’s never had to write a paper of any length before!”

This is exactly why, as a community college instructor, I now require my students to write a brief research paper using quality standards that I am sure are much higher than they have been asked to follow before. They are not getting this experience in high school anymore. I take a stepping stone approach to this paper, with numerous low-threat assignments leading up to the completion of the paper, yet so many students do not take advantage of the process. Unfortunately, I suspect the students who have not done any of the preparation assignments so far will not attempt or turn in the paper at all.
kjohehir

I haven’t taught in the CC system for over ten years, but in both Minnesota and later in Arizona, the first year English curriculcum required first semester, teaching the personal essay, along with readings to be discussed and questions answered. The whole point for Comp 101 is to get them ready for Comp 102, whose sole function was to teach them how to write a research paper, how to use information when writing for an academic purpose.

What has changed? Any student matriculating from a CC to a four year, surely should have had to write at least one 5-10 page research paper using MLA style during their freshman year.
elceesda

Having encountered these kinds of emails every semester, I just have to say thanks for doing your job and holding the line. You give students the opportunity to revise and resubmit numerous times, which is already very generous and pedagogically sound given the aims of the course.

I’ve found that being firm and saying no early on deters students from pestering me to change their marks, give them extra credit and so on. I also prosecute the majority of cases of academic misconduct I encounter, so this also adds to my reputation as a no-nonsense instructor.
raza_khan

I am forever amazed at such students…. I just live with the hops that these students did not take the higher education seriously or thought of it as a joke otherwise I would be seriously concerned. Yes, students in high school DO get bonus points in some classes for selling cookies or setting up refreshment stand but I hope that understand that college is a different ball game. My second issue is that students need to understand that NOT every single student in the class either DESERVES an “A” or is going to GET an “A” grade. That grade is reserved for select few who excel in that course. With that, we need to morph ourselves as faculty and more so even so as parents of our kids to understand that it is OKAY for a student / child to fail and it is probably better for the child than move forward.

Raza
_______________________
Raza Khan, Ph.D.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Eliana-Osborn/572634960 Eliana Osborn

Thank you so much for all your support! It feels lonely at times to hold the line, so I’m buoyed up by your comments.
rreeder

Having read the comments above, I see I am not the only one who gets complaints from students. However, at my school, the administration still believe in the “three r’s”: recruitment, retention, and graduation rates. If the students (read that customers) are complaining, it’s you the instructor’s fault. The poor little darlings wouldn’t lie, would they? Thankfully, I’m on the downside of my career. If I was 50, I’d just shoot myself and end it now. All I hear is “open book test, take home test” and “curves.”
dpmccain

One of the issues that continues to make me cranky is the impression that students have that if they miss a class and required activity, they may complete some mindless, useless assignment to make up the credit for the missed in-class activity. I teach a class in group dynamics,which is obviously attendance driven (we are a for-profit) Only the final project may address social networking, blogs, Skype, Second Life, etc. so their fanny has to be in the chair. I would prefer it if we could meet half of the quarter in virtual environments or online, but the class is structured as on-site face to face.

If a student misses a group activity, he/she must email me for a topic specific Scavenger Hunt through the Internet and our virtual library. I design and test the make-up activity to ensure it relates to the activity the student missed and the course as a whole. Because we meet once a week for 3 hours (which includes a lecture), the activity will take a computer proficient student approximately 2 hours to complete the activity, including sending their answers (and links) to me by email.

I constantly have complaints that the make-up assignment is too long, and other instructors only require a summary from a newspaper article to make up an absence. I stand firm, and when students do not complete the make up assignment, the F remains in the grade book. I don’t mark off for late work so students have from the time they are absent until the end of the quarter to complete the activity. Some simply cannot be bothered. Because each Scavenger Hunt is changed for each student, they cannot send each other answers to short cut…this frustrates some. Because I design the activity, and it is sequential.. they cannot simply Google an article,,and send it to me.

Having been provided with every opportunity for success, sometimes students will choose to fail. Even then, some of us try to think of ways to help students in at least passing a course. The funny thing is, after a quarter of marginal effort… some students want to know what they can do to get an A. I was soft a few quarters ago, and assigned a research paper to make up extensive absences and missed activities…I received a plagiarized paper; off topic.

Yes, I agree with E Osborn in that many students want extra credit when they haven’;t completed the assignments that are standard credit. I explain to my student that unless they have earned 100% for the class, they don’t have time for anything “extra”. I, too, have a week turnaround so students have no surprises as to their grade.

In reading some of the posts, I am comforted in that many of us seem to tilt our head at the delusions students have as to their ability. I am constantly bombarded with the comment, “I am a 4.0.” Many of these students cannot write beyond a first person, unsupported narrative…and heaven forbid you ask them to support an argument with a cited quotation. Many of these students “earned” 99% in their composition classes on campus…but that’s another story, having to do with instructional quality.

Is anyone else confused by the fact that even though the syllabus and course guidelines clearly detail course requirements, that some students truly believe they should not be held accountable? I could retire on the number of times students have charged me with any number of labels (how am I a racist because a student plagiarized an assignment?).

Many years ago, I was a marginal undergraduate student, and the Fs on my transcript have followed me. I paid the price for marginal effort and absence from class. Never mind my graduate school transcripts (I spent a quarter on academic probation so I could demonstrate I really wasn’t a pinhead), where I earned every A…there is a C+ and a B+ (never challenge professors regarding the errors on their exams…unless you are willing to take the hit to your final grade…which I was…who knew these two had no business in education..and I am not the only student to have reaped the result of their insecurities with their positions…but that’s another story.

So ending (breathing a sigh of relief?), I prepare for another week of reviewing résumés lifted from web sites…some students really think I am dumb, and am fooled…how arrogant they are, tossing their assignments in my direction as if I should bow to their youth and expertise…how foolish…how very silly some of them are…but then there are some…who remind me why I teach…and they are worth 100 of the others.
missoularedhead

We’re at the end of the semester here, and the last minute panic emails are rolling in. The students in my online courses who have dropped off the face of the earth are begging for a ‘U’ rather than an F, asking for extra credit (the syllabus clearly states that there isn’t any), demanding to be allowed to go back and do closed assignments…the list goes on.
I reply thoughtfully to each one, but all of them say the same thing (in not so many words)…if you cared this much, why did you stop doing the work?
jimdilly

Standing firm is a great policy for the tenured, but for an adjunct it can be quickest way out of a job. If students find out that you are tough (even if fair), you may not get enough to register for your course, and it might get canceled. Or, you might get hammered on your course reviews and adjuncts with bad reviews do not get retained. Institutions who need their tuition payments may not want to support or keep someone who fails students who pay their bills. Adjuncts who are not retained have a harder time getting the tenure-track job (so few and far between, anyway) and are thus relegated to the ubiquitous ‘pool’ and forced to cross fingers. If you do get back in somewhere, you are much less likely to be able to hold the same principled stand that got you exiled in the first place. This problem is cultural, and unlikely to improve until we have a sea change.
vcascadden

I support all the comments above, and the students in the non-traditional schools–so-called “adult learners”–come with even more of a sense of entitlement. “I paid all this money, and I don’t want to get less than an A.” I have made it clear from day one that, for a grade and a degree to mean something, academic rigor is called for. Oftentimes, my fellow adjuncts want to take the path of least resistance, avoid the wrath of their students, and pass them along. Then profs like myself are the “bad guys.” Too bad!
gplm2000

Many students, especially in online for-profit classes, feel a sense of entitlement to good grades. Afterall everyone should have a college education and by enrolling they are doing their part. Unfortunately many schools go along with the attitude, then criticize the instructor for holding students to higher standards. This is especially true for adjunct instructors.
jackmcnulty

I was an adjunct at the local community college and rarely had this problem. I was fortunate enough to have Dr. Dorothy Woods as a mentor who gave me wonderful advice on teaching, class room management, and how to treat students fairly.

Clearly defining how students earn their grades was important for me in helping the students. It also one main ingredient in keeping students from resenting their grades. I think it worked, becuase I had students who had failed my class, retake it with me, even though there were several sections offered. Those students improved and got good (A or B) grades the second time.

One of the really useful pieces of advice I recieved was to offer the extra credit on the first day of class. For my classes, extra credit entailed writing papers on different subjects related to our studies. To recieve any extra credit, all four of the papers needed to be completed on time. I made it clear to my students that extra credit was for work above and beyond what we planned to cover. Each semester a good number of students would perfrom the extra credit. It really helped with reducing the pressure on me to add additional ‘extra credit’, since everyone had the chance to get extra credit, and it wouldn’t be fair to the students who did the extra work.

Just
gplm2000

All very well and good:) However, if I graded online non-traditional students the same way that I was graded, most would fail. Plus, I would no longer be a facilitator/instructor/prof. at that school.
Guest

Nobody ever benefited from the snide games of useless elitist snobs. I’ll leave it at that.
schultzjc

Early Goldenrod is oversimplifying and taking statements out of context here.

I doubt that he/she would disagree with the argument that a very low (occasional) rate of publication is likely to be less-than-excellent scholarship. Of course that’s not the only factor that may be considered, but since most academic committees and instutitions can’t judge quality in specific fields, output is (unfortunately) still used to provide “evidence of scholarship”, like it or not. And most of us (including, I suspect, Ms. Hazelkorn) acknowledge that volume is not a useful measure in some fields (e.g., taxonomy, any subject in which books are the main currency).

The issue of peer review’s value is whether it indicates impact. It doesn’t, because reviewers don’t evaluate on that basis. Moreover in my (lengthy) experience, the quality of peer review has declined over the years. My grad course rarely finds a published article it would have accepted as printed. Because the peer review process allows no rebuttal to the views of a very small, sometimes poorly-chosen group of reviewers, blogs have recently become valuable commentators and even gatekeepers of quality.

Citation rate is influenced by the number of people in a field. The very best journal (quality) in a small field may have fewer readers than a terrible journal in a large field. Hazelkorn correctly points out that this makes between-discipline comparison useless. There’s nothing wrong with a popular field. You just can’t compare its journals with a smaller one. (I might also point out that what’s highly regarded in one field may be regarded as crap in another.) Hazelkorn also is correct pointing out that bad papers get cited a lot because they are bad, among other reasons.

Let’s not put too fine a point on these issues.
bizdean

Let’s do the math. To the extent that publications in top-ranked journals are used (i) for promotion decisions, and (ii) for department ratings that lure faculty candidates and PhD student applications, time is of the essence. The decisions cannot wait for the 5-year citation rate of a particular paper, or for (possibly) 30 years to see what impact the work has had on society. Rankings have limitations, but are an important part of the decision mix.

(I worked at one department with a sensible policy: “We use primarily the XXX list for evaluating scholarship in promotion decisions, but if you (the prof) can show us another credible list (ranking) that puts the journal you published in higher than XXX does, then we’ll use yours.”)
sand6432

It may be relevant to point out here that the peer-review process used for journals is different from that used for scholarly books. For journals, it involves reports from experts in the field plus the judgment of the journal’s editor(s), also experts in the field if not on the particular subject of every article. For scholarly books, as reviewed by university presses, the process involves a complex dynamic interplay of three types of knowledge, as represented by (1) the acquiring editor (who has broad knowledge of the fields in which he or she operates), (2) external reviewers (who, like journal article reviewers, are experts in the particular subject matter), and (3) members of the faculty editorial board, who are experts in their own fields but usually act more as generalists when assessing books proposed by editors for approval. This process, in contrast to that of journal peer-review, brings in a much wider perspective, reflecting assessments of value to society and to the general advancement of knowledge. This wider perspective makes the process a more valuable indicator of merit overall than one gets from journal article reviews.—Sandy Thatcher (former university press director and editor)
jamesebryan

Unless I missed it, something not yet noted is that such schemes will inevitably privilege established fields over emerging ones, helping to maintain traditional boundaries and discourage work that looks into new topics or is interdisciplinary Then there is the whole “apples and oranges” aspect of such comparisons. Surely there are specialized journals, particularly for smaller fields, that are so focused they really have no peers, as no other periodicals address quite what they do. If you argue that such journals all fall within larger categories in which there are comparisons you then privilege broadly defined areas of research over focused ones, and does anyone really believe that all the most important research is always the research that attracts the most attention right away?

What this is going to boil down to is the usual bureaucratic desire to quantify the qualitative in order to have accountability. There must be some method to make such assessments, which are necessary evils, but ultimately the effort to quantify the qualitative is at best approximate and at worst futile. Let’s hope some system of the evaluation of journals’ importance can be implemented that is flexible enough to be approximate rather than futile.
http://www.facebook.com/char.mentor Char Psi Tutor Mentor

Thank you! I will be able to link this encouraging the higher ed students to not lose their sense of curiosity and passion for learning, the value of extending their skills beyond solely research and journal publishing and enable their critical thinking skills to take into account the methodology of the ranking process itself with journals.
http://www.facebook.com/magnus.gunnarsson Magnus Gunnarsson

A tiny detail: Sweden does not assign points to journals, at least on national level. (Certain universities may do this for internal purposes.) The national bibliometric indicator is based on citations and publications, bypassing journals (for good or bad).
cbres

How many straight students are going to choose ‘prefer not to answer’? What implications will be drawn from that response? A lot of gay people, especially younger ones, identify as ‘queer,’ which isn’t an option, according to this article. I hope Elmhurst will revise its choices to include ‘Q’. Some of the most fervent advocates of equality are straight allies; they should be able to self-identify if Elmhurst really wants to be welcoming. ‘T’ should be rendered ‘transgender,’ not ‘transgendered,’ by the way.

I don’t share the concern raised by tptrekker, below, that students may perceive evil in Elmhurst’s motives. In general, I think it is great that Elmhurst will seek to welcome LGBT students. But I know too many students whose parents would cut them off financially and emotionally if the parents knew their child identified as LGBT. I know too many students who are out on campus but closeted to their families at home. It will remain hard to identify LGBT students, who need to out themselves on the Elmhurst form and who don’t count, of course, in any federally protected category.

Finally, there’s a huge difference between the LG, the B, and the T. The T is often reviled by society and — I am ashamed to say – by many members of the LGB communities as well. LG-identified people often see the B as opportunistic, despite the research on male Bs that was reported in the press as recently as yesterday.
skmarie17

The manner in which the question is posed causes me great concern. Straight students who are members of Friends of GLBT, PFLAG, etc. would probably answer this question in the affirmative. It seems very likely that “no” answers would be interpreted, sadly, as a clue to the at least latent homophobia of the student. If one considers himself not part of this “community,” it will be assumed that he is opposed to the community. Look at the way answers to sexual assault questionnaires are manipulated by politicos. There is no way I would answer this question.
pragmatist

I would wish to answer “NOYDB” for “None of Your Da**ed Business.” This is more useless drivel with which society will continue to be burdened, and continuing to bring such nonsense to the forefront only serves to further divide our society.
11272784

So now, we wait for the conservative lawsuit that says they are discriminating, and the liberal lawsuit that says they’re invading privacy, right? “Dualing” lawsuit time.
mxb22

So you may be eligible for a scholarship if you answer yes to LGBT because that’s an underrepresented minority group. How about if I say I’m a Jehovah’s Witness? Do I get money for that? I’ll bet they’re underrepresented at Elmhurst, along with Hasidic Jews, Montana cowboys and Marine Corps vets. If I get admitted because I say I’m LGBT, do I have to prove it? What a mess.
inlibrarian

Why is not being part of a “community” equated with being opposed to it? I am not part of the adoptive parent community, the Chinese-American community, the triathlete community, etc. but I am not opposed to any of them. Skmarie, I realize that you do not think this way, either–you were just pointing out a common thought pattern.

If they want to make students aware of scholarship and club opportunities, why not use the same method of all the other scholarships and clubs? I think they are actually trying to collect statistics and make a point about the openness of their campus to LGBT students.
anonytrans

Aside from the issues of sexual orientation, I applaud Elmhurst for asking students about their self-identified genders instead of assuming their legal sex will reflect this information. I’ve known many transgender students who have stressed over how to mark the questions about sex or gender on college applications, and this goes a long way toward schools recognizing students’ sense of self rather than imposing institutional labeling.
anonytrans

Very good comment. For more on ‘transgender’ vs. ‘transgendered’ for those interested: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne-herman/transgender-or-transgende_b_492922.html
navydad

Just curious, does Elmurst have any reason to believe that LGBT students are “underrepresented” on their campus?
janesdaughter

“Elmhurst’s question is unique because it concerns a student’s identity,
as opposed to just his or her interest in a particular issue,” but we also learn that the question appears in a section that also asks about religion and language. Why would religion or speaking other languages at home NOT be part of one’s identity?
5768

“We ask a lot of questions in admissions, so we thought, why not ask about this, too?”

Why not simply return to mass administration of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory or similar to each incoming student if what you want is to ask questions? If it is “diversity” information that is being developed here, it is just as much a tendency toward personal profiling that could be objected to.

That faculty search committees cannot ask questions of future coworkers while administrations can ask the same off-limit questions of each and every entering student is noteworthy. If coworkers are hired to fulfill a work function and not have their lives pried into, students evidently have additional functions to administrations than that of securing an education.
http://twitter.com/RichardLiving Richard Livingstone

Will #GW be next?
pketo1

Colleges asking incomming students what their orientation is helps match a gay student to appropriate housing, which is tremendously important considering what might happen if a gay freshmen entering college (which has never experienced dorm life before) is placed in a house with other students that may or may not accept their orienattion. that is huge. i know from being a freshmen, new to college and seeing the hate against gay students. some people can be really mean to each other, especially at that age (17-19 years old). That immature and childish side of the student is still there and it comes out in innapropriate ways. Not to say all students who are gay have a hard time upon entering college. I am in support of colleges asking incomming students what their sexual orientation is. It’s mightely important. It affects their entire soical and emotional wellbeing.

I rather like this statement, “In the next 10 years, we’ll look back and ask why colleges didn’t make this change much sooner.”

Terrific move on behalf of Elmhurst.
willismg

OR.. I can mark it that I’m gay so I can petition to be roommates with my girlfriend…

There just seems to be so many reasons to scam this that I can’t believe that this isn’t some kind of hoax article planted to give us some enjoyment on a long Wednesday afternoon at the beginning of the semester.
waritch

I work at a nursing school within a health sciences university. We use a centralized application service that does not include sexual orientatation or gender identity on the admissions app so I survey new students at orientation and include those categories in the demographics section. We also do a workplace climate survey and ask the same questions of our employees. I think it’s important both pedagogically and for the purposes of workplace diversity to know the makeup of our community.
profperf

As a member of the LGBT community myself (though I sometimes don’t feel much like a member of any community–that’s another problem with the wording–it privileges the social over the personal in identity), I still hesitate on this one–for one thing, the typical adolescent applying (as opposed to an older non-traditional student) may be trying to figure this out. While I realize that, as someone over 50, my coming out in grad school is later than many of the young folk today do, I wonder if the question, well-intentioned as it might be, might reify all kinds of assumptions about sexual identity and also suggest a kind of hyper-surveillance. Maybe a better time to ask the question would not be on an admissions application, but after a student has chosen to attend–either for housing options (we have an LGBT residential community on campus here for those who wish to live in one) or for information about affinity groups. Also, as any number of LGBT high school students may not yet be out to family or friends, there could be serious consequences if somehow they respond yes, and material gets sent to them and parents see it. They can, of course, simply answer “No” (perhaps lying) or “Prefer Not to Answer” (which, while it could be seen as a principled stand against invasive questions, could also be a dodge), but that could also give them a bad sense of self and community with which to begin their college life.
willynilly

This seems like a very stupid, more trouble than benefit, idea. If I were an enrolling student (and I would never be one because of this question) I would request that the admissions office provide me with the sexual orientation of every administrator, every faculty member and every member of the professional support staff. The basis of my request would be to determine if I was a good fit with this institution. I think it would be be essential that at the very beginning of the admissions transaction that there would be complete transparency. If Elmhurst wants me to reveal my sexual orientation, than Elmhurst should be more than willing to reveal their collective sexual orientation to me.
anonytrans

Uh, I think “appropriate housing” is more likely to mean rooming with other LGBT-identified students than making sure each student is housed with someone of a gender they aren’t attracted to. How exactly would that work with bisexual students, anyway?
navydad

“Those who answer “yes” will be eligible for Elmhurst’s Enrichment
Scholarship, which the college gives to about 100 incoming students each
year. The award, which covers a third of the college’s tuition, has
traditionally gone to underrepresented minority students.”

No one has addressed the question, so I’ll ask it again: on what basis has Elmhurst concluded that LGBT students are underrepresented? This is separate from the issue of asking students about their sexual orientation in order to provide better services.
drfiup

I assume that information (about all campus groups) is available on their website, brochures…..There is no reason to ask personal questions. The information is (or should be) available from other sources.

Or ask them if they are homophobes and direct them to the proper hate group! There are questions that should not be asked because they are no ones’ business. Would you ask them if they think all Muslims are terrorists so they can find the “right group” or if they believe that the Holocaust never happened – you can direct they to the campus Aryan Nation group.

This may be a little over the top but college students may not have come to terms with their sexual orientation and they don’t need to be pressured by higher education.
Guest

Well, you are totally wrong about DADT: Read http://criticalnewsscan.blogspot.com/2011/08/how-to-reset-your-desktop-to.html and http://criticalnewsscan.blogspot.com/2011/07/will-gays-be-new-cannon-fodder.html but I have learned that there is no talking to people who remain convinced that the law harmed gays when it helped and protected thousands of them. The debate’s over but the best I can say is that GLBTs have to use the DADT debate as a lesson — the people who rallied to repeal it were naive or selfish people who were willing to sacrifice young gay infantrymen for the ambitions of gay officers and some self-esteem for gay civilians.

It is not a surprise therefore that your position on what Elmhurst is doing is also muddled. It is wrong to ask people about their orientation, which is none of their business and which many eighteen-year-olds can’t even be certain about yet. This is yet another power grab by the power-hungry Gay Inc which keeps wanting to populate its ranks and beef up its numbers.

Here is the section I wrote about DADT for one of the articles linked above:

“Unfriend Rachel Maddow, the HRC, the Palm Institute, the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, and the Log Cabin Republicans, and expunge their emails.

The repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was the most poorly managed political effort in recent American history, and everyone who argued for the repeal must be scolded. With advocates like these, we don’t need opponents.

For years gay rights advocates misrepresented what the law did, how it had changed, and how many lives it probably saved. Even before the 2000s, when the military put in controls to forbid people from being discharged based on irrelevant accusations, most people discharged under DADT were junior personnel with very little time in the military who outed themselves in order to get out.

In the military, squad leaders eat last in the squad, platoon leaders eat last in the platoon, and company commanders eat after the company has eaten. The nourishment and well-being of subordinates must come before the ambitions of people with higher rank. Recent recruits in the Army and Marines have the most to lose; if they get killed because of dynamics in their unit, they give up their lives before having had the chance to pursue their dreams.

An eighteen-year-old grappling with homosexuality or recently outed is often distraught and might hurt himself or others. DADT was the means by which he got out of the armed forces if he or his cadre felt separation was the safest thing to do for everyone involved. Now, with DADT gone, there is no separation chapter that can remove him. By repealing DADT, gay advocates endangered the lives of young gays in the military, many of whom will be killed, end in suicide, or come out of battle with serious scars because their sexuality is difficult to accommodate in the fog of war. Nobody got killed because of DADT but at least one person I know has died because of the movement for its repeal.

Why was this repeal so important? DADT was an irritant for some career NCOs and officers (like the West Point graduate, Lt. Dan Choi) because they received honorable discharges and had to return to civilian life with full benefits. Is that so bad?

Apparently, yes. The poster boys and poster girls did not have the chance to build prestigious careers in the military as they might have wanted. We heard a lot from people in this privileged-but-not-privileged-enough-for-their-tastes position during the debate leading up to repeal on December 18, 2010. Rachel Maddow and columnists in the Huffington Post universe hammered us with the tear-jerking tales of discharged Coast Guard clerks, Air Force colonels, West Point graduates, and Navy nurses.

Had these folks been true to military ethics, however, they would have taken their honorable discharges and accepted the system for the protections it offered to privates and specialists in combat and combat arms positions. In the Pentagon survey results published on December 1, 2010, the only relevant statistic was that no more than 15% of gay people in the military wanted to be out in their unit. Rachel Maddow and friends failed to ask why 85% of gays in uniform clearly did not want to do what the repeal was going to allow them to do. Had they gotten out of their echo chamber and listened to alternative voices, they would have realized the difficult truths behind the 15% statistic.

I wrote to the Advocate, Out magazine, the New York Times, Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, the Los Angeles Times, six Senators, and the Palm Institute warning vociferously about the dangers posed to enlisted gay soldiers and Marines in the absence of the safeguard which was DADT. One prominent gay advocate’s assistant wrote back to me saying they could not help with the situation I was describing, because it fell outside of their purview. Their only goal was doing research to advocate specific policy positions. In other words, they spent decades choosing which stories to tell in order to score points with gay civilians.

Unfriend them. The gay left and the gay right were equally wrong on this point. They proved consistently that they will not listen to people with relevant information and will sacrifice gays and lesbian individuals to their self-serving agendas and swaggering abstractions. If they screw up a policy issue affecting a small number of people among the 1% of Americans who serve in the military, imagine what they will do when they advocate for changes to marriage law, immigration, foster care, K-12 education, and civil rights.”