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Re-Engineering Engineering Education to Retain Students

February 19, 2012, 7:25 pm

Vancouver, British Columbia—Alarmed by the tendency of engineering programs to hemorrhage undergraduates, at a time when the White House has called for an additional million degrees in science, technology, engineering and math fields—known as STEM—education researchers here at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science proposed ways to improve the numbers. At a symposium on engineering education, one group outlined a broad revamping of curriculum, while another proposed more modest changes to pedagogy.

The re-evaluation of curriculum is an effort called Deconstructing Engineering Education Programs. The project is led by Ilene Busch-Vishniac, the provost of McMaster University in Ontario and a mechanical engineer, and involves faculty from nine universities, including large public institutions like the University of Washington and small private ones like Smith College.

Patricia Campbell, a collaborator on the project who leads an education-consulting firm in Groton, Mass., said that the time to get an engineering degree was a major reason that undergraduates dropped the major. “We call these four-year schools,” she said. “But 64 percent of STEM undergraduates complete their degrees in six years.” In engineering, she continued, that was largely due to two factors: a proliferation of courses, called “topic creep,” and rigid chains of prerequisite courses that students had to follow to move on to higher courses.

Matthew Ohland, an associate professor of engineering education at Purdue University, added that the rigid structure not only prevented students from getting out of these programs with a degree, but it also kept potential students from migrating in. For example, he said, an industrial-engineering program might insist its students take a particular economics course to fulfill the program’s general-education requirements. But sophomores and juniors might have already taken a related but different econ course. To join the program, they would have to retake economics, a strong disincentive.

Ms. Campbell (who was formerly a professor at Georgia State University) and her colleagues attempted to streamline this system, focusing on mechanical engineering. At nine schools, they identified mechanical engineering courses that covered 2,149 topics. But after closely looking at the coursework, they found a number of similar topics with different names, and narrowed the list of unique topics to 833. Ultimately they grouped the courses on those topics into 12 clusters, each of which contained chains of classes focused around closely related topics, and required few courses from another cluster. The clusters covered all 833 topics, and instructional times ranged from 52 to 115 hours, with an average length of 91 hours. That corresponds, roughly, to four hours of course time each week for one semester on the low end or one year on the high end.

That means, Ms. Campbell said, that a mechanical-engineering student could cover all the required topics, but do so in four years, by taking three clusters each year.

It would also, she claimed, meet the standards of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, because it includes everything that accredited engineering programs do. Mr. Ohland, who works as an evaluator for the board, said the accreditor is open to new approaches like these, although he acknowledged there were many of what he called “horror stories” about the accreditor being very traditional and resistant to change. “If you do something too wild, you have to convince [the board] that it won’t hurt students.”

No institution has adopted the cluster formulation. Ms. Campbell said that faculty members were leery of the new course formulations, which grouped topics that they usually taught with other topics they did not. The solution, she said, was team-teaching of a course, but that’s something that pushes many professors beyond their comfort levels.

A less-radical approach would be to improve teaching techniques in existing courses, said another symposium participant, Susan S. Metz, executive director of the Lore-El Center for Women in Engineering and Science at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, N.J. She leads the Engage project, a consortium of engineering schools at 30 institutions, supported by the National Science Foundation, to identify best practices in teaching.

Research points to three practices that improve retention of engineering students, she said: “And they are straightforward strategies that call for a minimal amount of change in higher education.” One is to use everyday examples that students can relate to. “So if you are teaching engineering in Florida, don’t use examples from snow sports,” she noted. But if you are teaching a course in fluid dynamics, soap bubbles are good examples.

Second, she said, work to improve students’ spatial-visualization skills. Research has identified frustration with spatial-visualization tasks as a primary reason that students drop engineering majors, she pointed out. But testing students’ abilities in this area and offering extra help to those who test poorly increases their success in courses, a number of studies have shown. Short remedial courses give students practice at rotating three-dimensional shapes, either in a computer program or with plastic blocks, and also let them practice manipulating engineering blueprints.

Finally, improve faculty-student interactions. “Mentoring, tutoring, and just general attitude make a big difference in retention,” she said.

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  • raza_khan

    Seriously?
    The first few minutes were horrendous and simply embarrassing.

    This was probably one of the worst college graduation commencement speeches I have ever heard.  I would not want to invite him even for a high school graduation speaker!

    Raza
    __________________________
    Raza Khan, Ph.D.
    Dr.Raza.Khan@gmail.com

  • theblondeassassin

    Better second class than third rate.

  • a_voice

    This is a very interesting article, and I see how it is the same inside organizations. It is even worse when you have new administrations. Everyone fighting for influence and establish controls exacerbates the chaos.

  • 11134078

    I suspect the overriding point is that the Conservative Party, being the stupid party, is out to damage higher education in the UK. Perhaps this is the simple fact behind all these bewildering proposals and, most prominently,  imposition of tuition charges. 

  • burger1376

    True.  Third rate goes to Asian universities where you just have to get in and wait four years and then you graduate. 

  • pgteach

    British higher education is not the only country affected by “Initiative-itis’ as you coined the term. Education is plagued with reforms, new initiatives, and a host of regulatory oversights, but somehow practicality is not one of the considerations. In the United States each states sets their own standards and initiatives and these are forever evolving and changing. Along with new initiatives are cohorts of consultants, universities, and researchers. The money spent to bring each new initiative alive from the conception stage to the implementation stage is mind boggling. Maybe we will wake up one day and realize more does not always mean better, but less may in fact be more.

  • raymond_j_ritchie

    The real problem is that americans should get out more.  When you meet senior academics at a place like Cornell who have no passport and have never been outside the USA you know there is something wrong with American STEM culture.  No-one without an overseas post-doc should ever be considered for a faculty position.  That applies to someone who works on kangaroos as much as anyone else.
    I am Australian (of indefinite racial origin) now working in SE-Asia.  I am a strict monolingual but I have worked in 5 different countries and published with people of about 10 natonalities.  Only a minority of my coauthors use English as their first language.  None speak Spanish and only one thinks he can speak French.
    Much of the article and the correspondence is distracted by the language issue.  In my career I have read thousands of scientifc papers and I have never come across one that needed translating.  The only colleagues of mine that ever use another language in their work are plant taxonomists who have to be able to read old 18th & 19th century works in french and german and be able to use botanical latin.
    Take a close look at modern scientific papers and you will realise that it is a very simplified form of English that does not closely resemble any form of spoken English.  They are not English literature either. There are no complex sentences and it deliberately has no elegance.  It has a limited core vocabulary of only about two thousand words. Over 80% of readers and writers of scientific papers are using English as a second language and you need to understand that fact in your writing.
    The problems with advocating learning a language are always what language and what for.  It is not unusual today for a paper to have 5 authors with no first language in common and none use English as a first language. Which one to choose? My coauthors used as their first language: Urdu, Hindi, Hebrew, German, Russian, Sudanese Arabic, Serbo-Croat, Mandarin and Thai. Who teaches you? In most cases only the literary form is available not the technical form.  A foreign language taught to you by someone with a humanities background is of little value professonally in STEM.  They give you the wrong exercise material and vocabulary.
    The good intentions of learning a foreign language can sometimes backfire. There are some cultures which prefer to interact with outsiders in English and are severely intimidated by outsiders who penetrate their deflection shields by learning their language.  You are shunned as dangerous.

  • gloverparker

    My fear is that the U.S. is moving even further toward a “separate but equal” system of international education.  We know that the minority of students who do study abroad are in fact, majority white and women; that there has been no real breakthrough to open up this critical avenue of international education to a more diverse cohort of students…and yes, the “internationalization” of campuses also occurs at a relative small number of campuses.  So each year, of the millions of students receiving a college education, we know that a small percent are in any way exposed to opportunities to see the wider world they’re going to work in after graduation.  Where does this leave us? For sure, watching as other nations pass us in the distance race to be more competitive.  

  • bradleyhockey

    Here we go- another dumbing down solution. And you wonder why college students are unemployed?I can see it now- eventually replacing math courses with courses dealing with ‘polite language in the office’ or ‘sexual tension in the workplace’ which might solve attendance signups and keep up academic employment. Do you really want to release engineers who can’t handle the rigor of a tough locked in program? Haven’t we learned that our problems aren’t solved by dumbing everything down? Students aren’t signing up for engineering courses due to laziness. Creative curriculum won’t solve the problem.Enabling laziness on the student and academic side produces unemployment and student debt. Is college education summer camp or hard work. If the students want entertainment let them play a computer game it will be cheaper than carrying debt for yet another worthless course.

  • keithsawyer

    The engineering profession is to be applauded for embracing the well-established research on how people learn effectively in STEM fields. Research in the learning sciences tells us in great detail the type of pedagogy that results in deeper, more profound learning; more adaptive expertise; greater ability to solve real-world problems; and greater ability to work in interdisciplinary teams. Very briefly, it is a sophisticated and well-articulated version of active, project-based learning. The movement for a science-based pedagogy isn’t new; the National Academy of Engineering published the “Engineer of 2020″ report in 2004, and “Educating the engineer of 2020″ in 2005. Soon after, Purdue University created an entire School of Engineering Education to focus on this effort. The computer science directorate at the National Science Foundation (CISE) has distributed millions in grant dollars to support universities’ efforts to align their curriculum and teaching with what we know about learning. Other directorates are doing the same. Our colleagues in math and sciences are moving forward, too (one example is the creation of a new pedagogy research center at Washington University, CIRCLE) but schools of engineering are leading the way.

  • rgsarkar

    And diligent Chinese and Indian engineering students numbering in the 100s of millions, those who slog through the problem sets, who grow the necessary neurons during those key years between the ages of 10 and 25,  will rise into the middle and upper middle class while those trained in the US will stagnate. (Oh, we’ll continue to have our creative geniuses, but, their companies will be powered by the hardcore engineers, imported as necessary, and very well compensated for their talent, training and work ethic.)
    The market values a tough engineering education precisely because it is tough, and it is then priced accordingly. Dumb the education down, and the market will do its work. Nerds do rule, and the market recognizes fakes.

  • 22048164

    Has anyone every considered that, well, maybe these undergrads who are leaving the programs shouldn’t have been there in the first place.  It is my experience that a lot of people sign up for engineering majors, but very few can cut it because, let’s face it, not everyone can be an engineer, no matter how good the pay is or how hard their parents push them.  Programs shouldn’t be changed to accomodate those who really should have been in other majors to begin with.  They should be designed so that only the best and brightest will be building our future bridges and skyscrapers.

  • panhandle

    My experience in the 80′s was that it seemed every third incoming students listed Computer Science as their intended major.  They did so because the media and their families said that’s where “the money is at”. After their first programming class the number of declared majors dropped significantly.  No it wasn’t because I didn’t want them in the department. I worked every hard with the students. It was because the students found they were not suited for CS and CS was not suited for them.

  • lewandowski

    Interesting discussion but yes the curriculum for engineering is tougher than most, it is like being a marine not the national guard.  First mom and dad groomed little betty or bobby to be an engineer from day one in may cases.  Now they go to college and want to be electrical engineers but that is a little to difficult. So let’s change in sophmore year and go for mechanical but that still a little to tough.  So let’s stay on the trail and become a civil engineer or a math major in our junior year.  In doing so one takes course credits that do tend to stretch out the time line to at least 5-years for a B.S. ( unless engineering technology).  This has been the case for decades, so buck up and face it.  To become a reasonablity good engineer it cannot be addressed like a business school major or history major to get out in four years. Accept the fact, the more technical, the longer it takes!

  • chemteach

    One of the main reasons that it takes many students so long to get an engineering degree is students enter college without the core classes they needed to take in high school: chemistry, physics, trigonometry, and precalculus.  I was asked to help put together a two year engineering prep program at my community college.  I tried explaining to the administration that it wasn’t chemistry or physics holding students back.  Students must be ready to step into Calculus I in their first semester of college. Without taking Calculus I and II in their freshman year, most engineering majors cannot take their required engineering physics courses in their sophomore year. 

    I also agree that mentoring needs to improve in engineering departments.  My daughter who was ready for her surveying engineering program, changed to geology after a year because she felt the surveying engineering department just wasn’t interested in her as a student.  She took her two semesters of surveying engineering courses and drafting course and was able to use them as electives in the geology program. She now wants to pursue hydrology in grad school, so she is taking another engineering couse, fluid dynamics, which will count as an elective in her geology degree. 

    Engineering curriculum really starts in high school.

  • sciencegrad

     After reading this article, I fail to see any evidence that the proposed solutions would dumb down an engineering curriculum.  Can you please explain what you mean?

  • 11301218

     Absolutely correct!  This is true not only for traditional engineering disciplines but also
    for the physical and natural sciences and computer science — the math requirements
    start with calculus I.  If a student is not ready for calculus, they have to churn through
    a lot of high priced courses in college algebra, trigonometry, and pre-calculus that
    are basically high school courses (for which we give college credit).  This consumes
    money and time.  I am sufficiently enhanced chronologically to recall that when I
    and my classmates began university in the sciences or engineering 50 years ago,
    we were all calculus ready.  We did not even know anyone who planned to major
    in a science or engineering who was not.  Perhaps Sputnik did it.

  • theart

    “Research has identified frustration with spatial-visualization tasks as a primary reason that students drop engineering majors”

    At no point in the admissions process are spatial-visualization skills evaluated. The students who are dropping out were only steered into engineering because they were good at math and science in high school. This usually gets picked up around tenth grade, and the student is advised to focus on math and science almost exclusively. It’s only half way through sophomore design (when they need creativity and more than a vague grasp of the English language) that they realize math is a necessary but not sufficient skill. If you threw out every application that did not have both AP calc and at least one serious studio art class on the transcript, retention would go up dramatically.

  • engtechmatters

    Great article and one which needs brought to national attention and resolved. Unfortunately, many who have replied to this article seemed to have jumped on one issue (engineering rigor) and failed to address the other issues (e.g., “topic creep,” “rigid chains of prerequisite courses,” lack of faculty to student attention, etc.). I certainly do not disagree that many students cannot handle the rigor of engineering courses, many are in engineering for the money, or parental motivation and so on. However, many of us (including myself) absolutely need to be more committed to student success – many you know what I’m addressing here (research). Students who are struggling in any manner with a particular subject or issue need not be hung out to dry. Many students just don’t get it because the subject just isn’t taught well. The professor has a get-in and get-out mentality and leave students on their own to “get it.” Additionally, many schools are pressured to adding more classes to their engineering programs for the sake of generating further dollars for the program and institution. It clearly has nothing to do with preparing the student to become a more successful engineer. Regardless, American universities still produces the best engineers in the world and we will continue to do so.

  • 5768

    “Rigid chains of prerequisite courses…”

    Oh, boo hoo!  A one-semester INTRODUCTORY senior-level biochemistry course in a university chemistry curriculum may require a minimum consecutive chemistry chain of four chemistry courses: general chem I, general chem II, organic chem I, and organic chem II, not to mention mathematics courses required to enter general chem. 

    Over the decades engineering faculty have bemoaned that their engineering students have to wade through prerequisite chemistry, physics, and math courses and that these courses “turn off” their students long before they see an engineering course, blaming the non-engineering course content and faculty for turning their students away. Hence the call over the years for earlier engineering courses in engineering curricula which require no prerequisites.

    The mechanical engineering freshman who thinks s/he will learn how to design next-year’s automobile the freshman year has been misinformed from the start, and not by science and math faculties.

    If good engineering education is built on a solid science foundation perhaps engineering faculties would do better to educate their students as to the necessity and relevance of prerequisites and prerequisite tracking.  They appear unable to rise to this challenge and instead seem more willing to undermine the academic rigor of their own curricula and with it the quality of their own graduates.

  • lbcoleman

    Several years ago we did a study on why 6 years.  We compared the transcripts of Chemical Engineering majors who graduated in 4 years and those who took 5 years.  The 5 year plan students did one of two things — they changed majors from some other engineering curriculum to Chemical or in the majority of cases, simply wandered off the curriculum for unknown reasons.  While curriculum creep is real,  believe the engineering curriculum should and can be a four year degree if students remain focused.  

  • bioemeritus09

    The question that must first be answered is: Are today’s engineering graduates well-trained and competent professionals?  If not, by all means, change the curriculum.  If so, change the students. The inability to complete a rigorous curriculum that produces competent professionals is not the fault of the curriculum.  I don’t want my bridges collapsing after being engineered by a “graduate” who, in today’s curriculum would have been part of the hemorrhage.  You have something that works.  Why change it into something you’ve never tested?.  Changing education methods has ruined K-12 education.  And now the same ideas threaten universities.

  • bioemeritus09

    If a student is not ready for calculus, he should not be thinking of majoring in science or engineering until he is ready.

  • quasihumanist

    You neglect to mention that, nowadays, the worldwide market salary for a mid-level engineer is a good salary in India but barely enough to live on in the US.

    The creative geniuses have priced everyone else out of the American economy.

  • nontraditional001

    My ugrad ME degree took 6 years, but that was because I served in the Army after High School and forgot the basic mechanics of math, and I had to work full-time and take courses like Algebra and Trigonometry at a CC before entering the university.  My doctorate has taken roughly another 6 years.  I think there are many students like I was, working, changing careers, changing majors, etc. that factor in, but my ugrad program was designed to take 5 years or 4 if one was in the honors college.  If an incoming freshman is not a declared engineering major from day one then it could easily take 6 years to finish.  Interdisciplinary majors like biomedical engineering, can lengthen the time scale because biology and medical courses are added.  But overall, engineering always has a high wash out rate because it is rigorous.  The place to start would be better informing students about the rigors of the curriculum prior to allowing them entry.  There should be pre-engineering programs in high school.  Engineering is a curriculum that already has been effectively standardized and quality controlled via ABET.

  • manoflamancha

    This silly and presumptive article by second rate academics is missing the point entirely. Faculty and curriculum have little to do with the survival of spoiled American kids in engineering studies. The problem lies with the qualities of American students. In the fifties, retention was not high, and nearly 50% dropped out of engineering, but this only hardened the survivors who really WANTED to be engineers. I once took a poll in the eighties of freshmen engineering majors as I addressed them in a pep talk on choosing my department. Over ninety percent were doing it for the money, in a show of hands. Moreover, when I asked students I was assigned to mentor, how many hours they studied for each class hour, the answer was astonishing. In my student days, the number was fairly standard and well known to faculty and student alike, namely, three hours per class hour, which  for the traditional  class load of 16 hours of credits amounted to 48 hours per week. The average among the many advisees was an abysmal twelve hours per week of study! American students have a curiosity that is five miles wide and one millimeter deep. If you wonder why we produce some of the world’s crappiest cars, according to Consumer Reports, just take a careful look at your engineering schools. More dumbing down, watering down, hand holding and hand wringing or inflating grades will not change these facts about the state of American kids entering college, which has become an extension of High School. On the other hand, all the real engineering teachers reading this blog know that their best students are foreign and almost always from asia, who complain very little and always graduate on time. We don’t need more coddling and beauty pagents, we need the opposite: a tough curriculum full of fundamentals with a minimum of frill courses. The best ones will finish on track and on time.

  • nontraditional001

    While your nationality is not apparent your disdain for Americans is.  Your car analogy has less to do with engineering than with poor management at the executive level.  I have seen every nationality and ethnicity fail engineering exams.  But Americans do need better secondary education prep for engineering.  Foreign students arrive better prepared in that sense, but in graduate school the playing field is more level.

  • olddean

    Presented at AAAS? Engineering is fairly unusual in that it has a whole society, the American Society of Engineering Education (ASEE), which has for many years studied the engineering education process and is a remarkable storehouse of information and research.
     
    The current report just doesn’t measure up! To describe their “clusters” as trivial nonsense is to over value them. Too bad, because a few of the authors are quite respectable. Unfortunately, I fear most of the work was done by the others.

    The title of this post : “Re-Engineering Engineering Education to Retain Students” may not reflect the intent of the authors but the very idea that you change the curriculum to improve retention is repugnant; you change the curriculum to improve quality, to incorporate latest technology and to better prepare graduates to confront the challenges of tomorrow. Obviously you could improve retention by failing nobody, reducing rigor, lowering requirements, and handing out degrees after four years of whatever. Hardly what we need.

  • manoflamancha

    Partly right, I do indeed have disdain for spoiled, whiney American students who try to manipulate every teacher for grades. On the car analogy, the design came from mainly American born engineers, but was no doubt affected by crappy American MBAs in executive positions, the bane of all working engineers. Other American workers in Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama etc. build fine vehicles for foreign companies, but they were designed in Japan, Korea or Germany. With rare exceptions, the only A grades earned in my graduate classes were Asians, and an occasional European. Perhaps 10% of American students were competitive with the foreigners in my classes after the 1990s. So, you were wrong on that too, the playing field is not more level for Americans. I’ll even pinpoint the year the tide turned: 1986. That was when more of my A grades were awarded to foreigners than to Americans.

    On your curiosity respecting my nationality, I will say to you what I told a rude taxi driver in Paris: “Non anglais, je suis Americain!”. You got only one thing right, matie, Americans need better prep for engineering, and they also need more attentive and demanding parents and teachers. Too many like you think like the English before their downfall: “I’m all right Jack”. As the tough oldtimers retire (yes, like me), and are replaced by the likes of you, and the Xers and the Yers, they will no longer speak of our engineering education as the world’s best. “If this Republic lasts a thousand years, men will look back on this generation and say: this was their crappiest hour!”
    Regrets to Winston for my twisted plagiarism :-))

  • manhire

    Grade Inflation in Engineering Education at Ohio University
    http://sdsu-physics.org/sdsu_per/articles/GradeInflation.pdf

    Grade Inflation, Ethics and Engineering Education
    http://soa.asee.org/paper/conference/paper-view.cfm?id=20099

    Ohio University Plagiarism
    http://ohiouniversityplagiarism.blogspot.com/

  • richardtaborgreene

    This article exemplifies a great phenomenon————–the FAKE PROBLEM.   

    Six years is NOT a problem in any respect whatsoever.   FOUR years as an expectation is THE problem.    Business is filled with this phenomenon—projects killed because over schedule based on absolutely base-less silly schedule expectations by poorly qualified managers.   Similarly here, poorly qualified university administrators go crazy when people do not graduate from this and that in FOUR years—why?  They have no idea.  This idea that EVERY field has the SAME intellectual requirement VOLUME is about as obviously stupid as anything in our universe becomes.   

    Nor is lack of work by lazy Americans in any way a problem—the decline of America is a perfectly normal result of Americn getting 50 years of free ride superiority as Europeans and East Asians lick wounds from their own every generation or two propensity to mass kill each other.   Americans merely funded and supplied these paroxysms of Europe and Asian killing.  There are zillions of hard working Asians and others willing to come to the US, study hard what Americans do not study hard, and work in America for most of our lives—if we do not shut the visa door to HARD WORK.    The problem is our propensity to protect lazy people from hard working people.   The progeny of nasty Tiger moms, neurotically hard workers, masters of head pounded algebras and languages, are MORE AMERICAN, regardless of nationality, than those 2 or 3 generations in the US geographic area (who after 2.5 generations lose MOST of their American-ness). We need immigrants because THAT is where AMERICANNESS resides, not the bovine masses afraid of coasts, hard work, global comparisons, and competing in a world. Dorothy and Toto. America has NEVER been a geographic area, but it was and is always—a DREAM, one that more CHINESE now dream than those born in the United States of Whining Dissatisfaction.

    curmudgeon comes to mind here.

  • greatexpectations

    Engineering should not be a four year undergraduate degree and engineering programs should be published as such. Engineering is on a island of professional degrees that are awarded at the undergraduate level. Certainly an engineer should be held to a higher standard than say a CPA?

  • engtechmatters

    Yes, many American parents are negligent when it comes to their child’s education. Many work two jobs, dual incomes, and/or just do not care. Parents are one of the significant factors in a child’s academic success and, yes, the high school pre-engineering curriculum does need improved and we are doing something about it by investing more money in STEM education.

  • engtechmatters

    “Second rate academics?” Your age and partiality shows through this ignorant and biased comment.

  • manoflamancha

    What do you mean, Georgia State is first rate? I admit ignorance in some worldly matters, such as the French Renaisance, but I am not the fool you are, and your whole sorry generation! You will bring us all down.

  • greatexpectations

    “Is college education summer camp or hard work”…..I do not want the answer to this! As emphasis on retention for financial solvency is increasingly emphasized, the term college education nears oxymoronic levels. Above article is yet another concern to keep asses in seats rather than bestow degrees on the elite.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Clinton-Staley/6419242 Clinton Staley

    As a professor of Computer Science at a teaching university, I have a couple of reactions to this.

    First, I am sure there are always ways we can improve our teaching, and trying to do so is laudable and constructive.  Several of the approaches mentioned in the article sound promising.

    But…  Second, I am concerned by what sounds like an underlying assumption that high attrition in engineering is exclusively or even largely due to imperfect teaching practices.  The article’s unmentioned elephant-in-the-room (though it is well noted in the comments!) is that engineering is very challenging, and that many students go into it not so much out of sincere interest, but for career opportunities, or, as in my field, because they find its products, e.g. video games, “cool”.  Many such students, faced with the challenges that engineering presents, drop out quickly. 

    Accusing the faculty of causing this attrition risks encouraging even more bright young PhDs to double or triple their income by moving away from teaching into industry.  We need to value the excellent efforts that engineering faculty already put into their teaching, and recognize the unusual challenges presented by their field.  And, we need to place the burden of success in this field on both the teacher *and* the student. 

    I am also concerned by a recent tendency to measure success in engineering programs by throughput alone.  If we increase throughput, but do not maintain quality, then we may be sure that the engineering firms hiring graduates will do our filtering for us, and the result will be large numbers of graduates who have put in years of effort only to find no jobs waiting for them because they don’t meet the bar.  This is surely the case in my field, where a significant number of long term unemployed software developers exist in one of the best job markets in history for software development, one in which bright grads are getting offers well over $100,000/year, and others are getting none at all.  A degree alone, even one with a high GPA, guarantees the student absolutely nothing.  What they *learned* is all that matters in that job interview.

    Oh, and one final point: the reason these degrees are taking 6 years instead of 4 is that engineering has gotten harder over the last several decades.  In my own field, I’d make a gut estimate that becoming a competent software engineer takes 50 to 100% more effort than it did in 1980, when there was no internet, no object-oriented design, no GUI interface, etc.  At some point, we’ll all have to recognize that if other professional areas like medicine or law require graduate education for success, it’s perfectly reasonable that engineering should as well.  Do we seriously think engineering in the 21st century is simpler than those other professions?   If so, then why are we always short on engineers but not on lawyers or (at least yet) on doctors?  If not, then why do we insist on jamming 6 years of necessary education into 4, and then complain about high attrition?

  • nontraditional001

    Man of La Mancha, I respect your opinion as a jaded
    “oldtimer”, but lamenting the good ol’ days and disparaging the current
    generation is misguided.  If you look at population trends and history,
    you’ll see that in the 1950s America was mostly white western European, and now
    it is much more diverse. Chinese and Indian students are coming here in droves because
    our higher ed. is the best in the world, and we still have a coveted free
    society with the promise of upward mobility.  As for engineers of the past,
    using the Apollo program and Manhattan project as examples, Americans relied on
    imported expertise.  The American primary and secondary education system
    has always favored language and arts over math and science, but that allows for
    students who have the drive and ambition to pursue engineering.  But we
    need pre-engineering programs like pre-law and pre-med. 

    The problem is the dilution of the meaning of and respect for engineering over
    the decades.  The term is used in many jobs that have nothing to do with applied
    science.  The title of “Engineer” should be as restricted as
    “Doctor”.  For example, I heard
    many times, while working in industry, from long term technicians that they
    could do my job if they had that “piece of paper”, meaning an
    engineering degree.  They had no idea
    what was involved in earning the degree. 
    There are also no big national projects, like Apollo, to excite the
    public.  Many students want to go into management consulting or finance so
    they can make lots of money in a short amount of time.  Corporations see
    engineers as overhead, don’t recognize their professional status, don’t pay
    them enough, and lay them off as soon as projects are completed.  Research
    funding has dwindled.  So I submit that your generation was not a good
    steward of the profession by failing to protect the sanctity of engineering and
    promote its fundamental place in society as being the engine of creation.  
     

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Clinton-Staley/6419242 Clinton Staley

    I teach students of both genders (though regrettably fewer women than men in my field).  Tarring all female students with such a brush is mean-spirited, and, more importantly, not valid.  (And, if you think I’m a “sob sister”, check out my online teacher ratings — I’m one of the hardest-case professors in my field.)  Many of my finest, most disciplined, and honest students are women.  I require individual work, and do fail students for cheating, and I can’t recall the last time I had to fail a woman for cheating. 

    The important point is: people are individuals, not genders.  There are brilliant female engineers, and weak ones.  There are brilliant male engineers, and weak ones.  Judge ‘em by their individual accomplishments, not their genders.

    Now, the point about dependence on a team does deserve some attention.  Almost all engineering in practice is done in teams, so good teamwork is essential.  Talent alone doesn’t cut it.  But, at the same time, it is very common for weak students (of either gender!) to sponge off their team.  This irritates and discourages the strong students, and it damns the weak ones to unemployability.  So, the trick is to arrange teams of comparably able and motivated people, as is the case in any well-run industrial project.  A weak student needs to find out right away that they must pull their weight, while they still have time to course-correct before graduation.

  • manoflamancha

    I agree with many of your points, and have suggested at conferences that we need to make the professional degree an MS, which can take six years, but only five in Denmark where this standard is maintained.

  • bscmath78

    sciencegrad, the article says, “Second, she said, work to improve students’ spatial-visualization skills” and the provided solution “Short remedial courses give students practice at rotating three-dimensional shapes, either in a computer program or with plastic blocks.”

    Before I first got to school, I and I think most children played with wooden or plastic blocks and other things. Later we were playing with jigsaw puzzles and building toys like Lego, which all involve rotating and matching shapes.  Then along came the Rubik’s Cube. So it seems as if the author of the article sees those who can’t even perform at a 5th grade level as engineering material.  I think that counts as “dumbing down”.   I also remember 5th grade standardized tests involving  “spatial-visualization skills” and weren’t many of those computer games supposed to involve “spatial-visualization skills.”  Don’t many sports/recreations involve “spatial-visualization skills” ranging from ping-pong, to darts, to knitting, to soccer, to needlepoint, to basketball etc.?

    Engineering students need to at least meet the smart 5th grade standard. Engineering needs Lisa and Martin, not Ralph, Homer or Jimbo (all from “The Simpsons”)

  • bscmath78

    First year Engineering should be applying the old reliability techniques of a high stress  “burn-in” period. In the old days, electronic components for the aerospace industry tended to be “burnt-in” first, run at say four times the normal workload/stress levels to cause the components to fail in test very quickly and not on the job. The idea was to drive the surviving components down the life time failure curve to the point where the failure rate was low and random.   In this case, the objective should be to drive 90% of attrition before Thanksgiving.

    In doing something innovative or creative, two excellent engineers working together are much better than 10 mediocre engineers working on a team.  The objective should be to create a few good or excellent engineers and almost no mediocre or worse ones.
     
    From October 2011 we have the headline, “Robot made from Lego beats human record for Rubik’s cube” which shows the work of a pair of programmers.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2050431/Robot-Lego-beats-human-record-Rubiks-cube.html

  • bscmath78

    Engineering students need to at least meet the smart 5th grader standard.  Engineering needs Lisa and Martin, not Ralph, Homer or Jimbo (all from “The Simpsons”).  

    The article says, “Second, she said, work to improve students’ spatial-visualization skills” and the provided solution “Short remedial courses give students practice at rotating three-dimensional shapes, either in a computer program or with plastic blocks.”

    Strange, babies still are able to enjoy playing with cardboard boxes. A few years ago most children played with wooden or plastic blocks and other things. Later they were playing with jigsaw puzzles and building toys like Lego, which all involve rotating and matching shapes. Then along came the Rubik’s Cube. So it seems as if the author of the article sees those who can’t even perform at a 5th grade level as engineering material.  I think that counts as “dumbing down”.  I also remember 5th grade standardized tests involving “spatial-visualization skills” and weren’t many of those computer games supposed to involve “spatial-visualization skills.”  Don’t many sports/recreations involve “spatial-visualization skills” ranging from ping-pong, to darts, to knitting, to soccer, to needlepoint, to basketball etc.?

    It appears that smart phones demonstrate impressive  “spatial-visualization skills” as we see in this October 2011 headline, “Robot made from Lego beats human record for Rubik’s
    cube”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2050431/Robot-Lego-beats-human-record-Rubiks-cube.html

  • bscmath78

    Clinton Staley,  you wrote, “engineering has gotten harder over the last several decades.” 
     
    Isn’t it easier to have higher level languages than machine language or Assembler?  Isn’t it easier to code with more than 4K of iron core memory?  Don’t all the libraries of algorithms and subroutines make life simpler (Knuth’s books and whatever replaced the vast number of Engineering/Scientific/Numerical Analysis routines in FORTRAN, 35 years ago)? Hasn’t Moore’s Law and the applications like CAD/CAM/CAE, CATIA, CompHEP made life so much easier than the days of slide rulers and log tables (or even the Reverse Polish Notation of HP calculators)?  Haven’t the advances in chip technology made life so much easier than when vacuum tubes constantly failed? 

    Aren’t the concepts of inheritance and recursion much more interesting than dealing with addresses and registers.  Somehow the people at Xerox PARC came up with GUI and mice etc. in the 70s.  ARPANET started up in 1969, a predecessor of the Internet, which makes the modern engineer’s life faster and easier.

    Isn’t it true that they “have seen further [it is] only by standing on the shoulders of Giants” (to quote Newton)?

    To link engineering to medicine and law is to grossly degrade and debase engineering.  What other field has delivered anything like Moore’s Law or the health benefits of plentiful clean water and food. Or produced X-ray machines, CT scanners, ultra-sound, MRI and the mass production of penicillin during WW II. Of course, this is a joint success of the STEM fields.

    The problem is to “complain about high attrition” when it is something to be proud of. The mediocre engineer will typically not find a field related job or if they do, they will probably be soon automated or off-shored into oblivion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Clinton-Staley/6419242 Clinton Staley

    I’ve been coding for almost 40 years, and have actually toggled bootstrap code onto the front panel of a machine, in binary, so I understand what you mean.  But, I also work on current apps, and I still say it’s 50-100% harder than it was 30 years ago.  If I knew now only what I knew in the mid-80s, I’d be barely employable.  

    Yes, the tools (languages, databases, libraries) are better, but they also demand more knowledge.  I teach C++, for instance, and I’d say it’s about 2x as hard to learn well as its predecessor C.  

    More importantly, what we expect of a software developer has greatly increased, in part because the tools are better.  Imagine what it would have taken to build a web calendar service, with browser UI, as well as GUI client implementations for Android and iOS — in 1980.  What would have taken a large team back them (using C, handcrafting all the networking and GUI stuff, etc.) is expected in a single person-year of effort today.  Yes, the tools make that possible, but the learning curve for the tools is correspondingly higher.

    I suppose the most dramatic, and somewhat sad, testimony to this is the large number of mid-career software devs who were employed in the 80′s/90′s and can’t get work now.  There are a host of reasons for this, but it’s not all about cheap labor (new grads are getting $125K offers).  It’s just really hard to keep up to date in this field.

    It is tempting to be proud that our field is this challenging, but there’s a real human cost to people washing out, either early or late, and I would hope we could reduce that at least somewhat by better teaching, though as I’ve said earlier, I think we already do a pretty good job.

  • bscmath78

    It is interesting that there is no mention of the concern about the rise of simulation and the drift away from dealing with real materials and doing real experiments instead of relying just on computer models.  One related aspect is the disappearance of chemistry sets for children and the decline or disappearance of hands-on lab work and shop work in high school.

    “When you show me that result, the computer understands the answer, but I don’t think you understand the answer.”

    - Physics Nobel Prize winner Victor Weisskopf

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=YTHWfqqHZ7gC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=%22When+you+show+me+that+result,+the+computer+understands+the+answer,+but+I+don%27t%22&source=bl&ots=s7cHRRE8fQ&sig=dSgNMBxm2pbBle-SycWz-Ckdp6s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U-tDT7ZYhsvRAYDKjMQH&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22When%20you%20show%20me%20that%20result%2C%20the%20computer%20understands%20the%20answer%2C%20but%20I%20don%27t%22&f=false
    “I’m happy that the computer understands the phenomenon, but I’d like to understand it too.”
    - Physics Nobel Prize winner Eugene Wigner

    I once saw somewhere that the only common factor someone found among a group of Nobel Prize winners was that they had all worked at one time in a machine shop, it being theorized that this might have given them an affinity for designing experimental apparatus.  The importance of machine shop skills is illustrated by page 881 of
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/1685072?seq=2&Search=yes&searchText=%22few+scientists+are+proficient+machinists%22&list=show&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3D%2522few%2Bscientists%2Bare%2Bproficient%2Bmachinists%2522%26acc%3Don%26wc%3Don&prevSearch=&item=1&ttl=1&returnArticleService=showFullText&resultsServiceName=null
    and look for “few scientists are proficient machinists” and “the scientist is unlikely to be able to design state-of-the-art hardware.”

  • bscmath78

    Clinton Staley, thank you for your thoughtful response. No disagreement with, “the large number of mid-career software devs who were employed in the 80′s/90′s and can’t get work now” or “It’s just really hard to keep up to date in this field.” 

    Though, I remember Object-Oriented (including C++ and Smalltalk) as being “hot” certainly by the 90s, with GUI being big starting in the 80s with the Mac and later Windows (and the ill-fated OS/2), though the little “The Little LISPer” was course reading in some colleges in the 70s and LISP was the big thing at MIT for quite a while.  What does seem unchanged is the constant avalanche of new HW/SW that is proclaimed as the “next big thing” by the vendor, but that is a gamble for the programmers.  Think of the vendors who suffered going down the OS/2 path or that were knocked off by Microsoft.

    Programming and engineering is something of a Red Queen’s Race, as described in Lewis Carroll’s “Though the Looking-Glass”.

    “Well, in our country,” said Alice, still panting a little, “you’d generally get to somewhere else — if you run very fast for a long time, as we’ve been doing.”

    “A slow sort of country!” said the Queen. “Now, here, you see, it takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast as that!”

    This is all the more reason to drive attrition before Thanksgiving and keep the running pressure all through college as prep for a career of high risk, high attrition and constant running, where you have to constantly retrain yourself to keep your edge. An environment where most start-ups die or stagnate and most large companies eventually suffer a major retrenchment (RIM, IBM, DEC, Wang etc.).  It is better learn that this isn’t your kind of race at 18 rather than 22, 25, 35 or 45.  Even better to know how hard the path is at 15 or 16.

  • bscmath78

    quasihumanist, according to the recent Arum and Roksa report, the average full-time income for Engineering and Computer Science majors in its study was  $50,625 vs. $32,200 for Social Sciences/Humanities.  Full-time employment was 63.29% vs. 48.47%, respectively.

    So things aren’t that bad, yet.  Increasing recruitment, retention and graduation would seem geared to making things much worse.
     
    http://highered.ssrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Documenting-Uncertain-Times-2012.pdf

    Of course, I have many criticisms of the report and the published interpretations of the report as can be seen starting here:
    http://chronicle.com/article/Academically-Adrift-The/130743/#comment-437779649
    http://chronicle.com/article/Adrift-in-Adulthood-/130444/#comment-420801907

  • bscmath78

    Engineering generally has a poor risk/reward profile for those who are greedy.  Starting your own successful start-up gives the best odds, but most start-ups fail or stagnate.
     
    The record for college in general is open to question especially its ROI given the current rising costs and declining incomes.  For engineers, incomes may start off pretty good for the top part of the class, but for many incomes stagnate or drop off a cliff by middle age if they have misfortune to go to work for someone like Eastman-Kodak.  Luck is very important.  See also Clinton Staley’s comment about unemployed programmers earlier in this thread.
     
    The Golden Age for college men and the economy was the 50s.  Yet in 1992 only about 20.25% (r=0.45)  of male income was predicted by education, for males 55-64, which would include those graduating in 1950-59, assuming graduation at 22.  Consider that these male college graduates faced very little domestic and foreign competition, during the post-WW II boom.  They also graduated (1950-59) well before the changes in colleges and male college students that are much decried currently.  They were educated at college during the Golden Age that some critics mythologize.

    The 1992 income for California males 25-29 revealed that only about 12.25% (r=0.35)  of income was predicted by education. Their approximate numbers were average education 12.5 years with standard deviation of 4 years, with average 1992 income of $21,500 with a standard deviation of $16,000.

    1992 was after the Savings & Loan boom, bust, bailout which still in 1992 had many voters
    discontented about the economy. A footnote says for this data, “The sample is of men in the labor force.”  So it is excluding those still in college.  1992 was before many of the changes in colleges and male college students that are much decried currently. 

    $21,500 for all working 25-29 California males compares well with the recent $35,097 average for full-time employed, top quintile CLA score, 4 year college graduates, reported in Arum and Roksa’s latest report.  It also compares well with the 1992 median family income for a family of four of $40,763.   This suggests that high CLA scores are harmful or meaningless or that “critical thinking” is harmful or meaningless.

    Much has changed in 20 years so “past performance is no indication of future results” as disclaimed by mutual funds.

    For 2012 students there might be a higher correlation over the decades, due to increased credentialism, gate-keeping and de-industrialization, combined with increased oversupply, competition and wage suppression for high school graduates and dropouts.  Plus it is important to note that college was much cheaper for students in the 50s, so from an investment standpoint income needs be adjusted by rising net costs, including
    opportunity costs, to get a handle on return on investment.  Voters and politicians apparently decided that college was really more of a “private good”, so more of the costs should be born by students.

    “Hostages to Fortune” – with apologies to Sir Francis Bacon
     
    See “Statistics”, 3rd Edition, by Freedman, Pisani, Purves, 1998, an introductory statistics textbook for the non-mathematical college student.  Their analysis uses the March 1993 “Current Population Survey” using 1992 incomes, see pages 126, 202 and 203.  For males 18-24 only about 2.25% (r=0.15) of income is predicted, this is probably because many are still in college.

  • 11209892

     I’ve heard this from several employers, that they want more specialized students.  It is also said among the private sector employers, that today’s undergraduates are significantly under trained in critical thinking, mathematics, skills, etc…If we examine things from a historical perspective it seems that those who have built the most are the one’s that are least specialized.

  • polargrid

    Agreed.  Notably, when my research group members work with any type of modeling software, they have a depressing tendency to shirk responsibility for the quality of their work and push it onto “the program.”  The brain turns off and it becomes a matter of pointing and clicking in a GUI while an impenetrable black box does the work.  They constantly write up computational work in terms of clicking on software modules and blindly reporting the output, rather than describing the calculation procedure that THEY executed (and don’t understand).  It’s a never-ending battle.

  • lewandowski

    Yes for only engineers are allowed to take basket weaving? As an engineer the perception is that we are not cool ( might be nerdy)but we need some of these soft courses to get outside our comfort levels and just maybe learn to broaden our horizon and sometimes marketability in this world of ours. So dumbdown is rather a dumb statement PERIOD. Most engineers can get a job somewhere as long as “they are willing to think outside the box” and accept that mobility is part of the 21st century too.  Also never met to many lazy engineers in my time – just lazy people!

  • manoflamancha

    I met Eugene Wigner once many years ago. He told me he had to get his first degree in Chemical Enginneering because…”my father thought I could make a living at it, and I was not smart enough to do Physics!” You have shown some wisdom today, rabbit.

  • manoflamancha

    Hey, Lew, but I am cool, nes’t pas? And not lazy, but very strong willed. Perhaps this is the key ingredient that is missing in the current crop of young American folk? I wonder if any in the blog will remember “will” as a national cry? Sad, but true. Some good ideas go bust.

  • bradleyhockey

    Great idea- all students deserve to be engineers if they desire to be engineers. For those who have been held back for whatever reasons let’s level the playing field- math for artists replaces upper level math and physics for poets replaces physics. Trophies and diplomas for all!! ….that ought to increase the numbers of engineers out there. One request keep those students away from bridges, tunnels and high rise buildings LOL

  • sages

    Say where do you get all those statistics? l am not disputing them, just curious.

  • csgirl

    I also teach in computer science and pretty much agree with all your points. I also worked in the software industry for many years, so I have some familiarity with what employers expect and need. The gap between what our students know when they graduate after 4 years, and what is actually *needed* to be a productive software developer is scary.

  • csgirl

    Because the tools are more powerful, the systems we develop are infinitely more complex. It is this complexity that creates the challenge.

  • csgirl

    I teach computer science to lots of students who are the first in their family to attend college, and who come from poor urban high schools. I have come to the conclusion that a rigid chain of prerequisites is *MORE* important for at risk students. They need the structure, because they are less likely to be able to figure out the correct path through the courses on their own. They are also often less able “catch up” in a course for which they lack the preparation because they often are working long hours at menial jobs to pay for school, and they also lack the skills to do independent study. I think that with a well structured program, one in which each student knows exactly what he or she will be taking each year, we would see far less attrition in this student population.

  • bscmath78

    sages, see “Statistics”, 3rd Edition, by Freedman, Pisani and Purves, 1998, an
    introductory statistics textbook for the non-mathematical college
    student.  Their analysis uses the March 1993 “Current Population
    Survey” using 1992 incomes, see pages 126, 202 and 203.  There are more stats relating to education and income in other parts of the book, including the exercises.

  • bscmath78

    Physics Nobel Prize winner Paul Dirac first became an electrical engineer at the University of Bristol, because he couldn’t afford to go to Cambridge.  He couldn’t find a job as an engineer, so started studying Math again at Bristol.  After getting his Math degree he was finally able to get sufficient scholarship money to go to Cambridge.

    Sadly, the STEM life has often been hard, even for the great. 

    “Rabbit”? What is the allusion or reference?

  • bscmath78

    polargrid, thank you for your report.  The SW “plug and chug” approach also is very prevalent in the Social Sciences and the acceptance of this work by the consumers of Social Sciences research is even more depressing. 

    They all ignore “Garbage In, Garbage Out” (GIGO), which we knew in high school.  Of course, in those days we did mental arithmetic until mid-high school, then log tables and slide ruler.  No calculators.  It seems bizarre that students are allowed to use calculators for standardized tests.  I don’t find the ability to use a calculator very impressive, especially if it doesn’t require Reverse Polish Notation. 

  • bscmath78

    sages. the r values are the approximate correlation coefficients reported in “Statistics”, 3rd edition.  I then squared the r value to give the proportion of the income “predicted” by the linear regression model, since this value is more meaningful for most people, as well as illustrating the weakness of the predictive power of education.

  • bscmath78

    manoflamancha, the problem is too many are “very strong willed,” very opinionated and think they are very “cool.”  Many illustrate that “Ignorance is Strength!” and “Ignorance is bliss.”  Many “think with their gut” or lower down. They strongly believe in “truthiness.” 

    When someone marshals some evidence and some logic, they loudly whine and complain at how long and complex the argument is.  They prefer the tweet.  It is hard to differentiate their behavior from laziness, at least intellectual laziness.  Since they fail to provide a counter-argument or counter evidence or counter logic.  They fail to point out errors.

    I remember “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” “as a national cry.”   I remember 2 year-olds as full of will.  I remember the Nazi propaganda film “The Triumph of the Will” and the thousand bomber raids along with much blood and treasure that were needed to deal with the resulting horrors.

  • bscmath78

    Almost 20 years ago, the September 21, 1992 issue of Fortune Magazine had the article,
    “The Care & Feeding of Engineers: Few are nerds wearing pocket protectors; most are sociable and articulate. They’re the front-line troops in the battles for the environment and U.S. global market share.” http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1992/09/21/76879/index.htm

    Which reveals this about the starting pay of engineers:

    “While engineers enjoy relatively good starting salaries — currently in the $35000 to $40000 range — their salary growth afterward is sluggish.”

    Remember, 1992 was after the Savings & Loan boom, bust, bailout, which still in 1992 had many voters discontented about the economy.  It is interesting to what issues were being raised back then.

    In 20 years, engineers have not done especially well when one considers that according to the recent Arum and Roksa report, the average full-time income for Engineering and Computer Science majors in its study was $50,625 vs. $32,200 for Social Sciences/Humanities.  Full-time employment was 63.29% vs. 48.47%, respectively.

  • nontraditional001

    Agreed.  I personally don’t trust FEA or turbulent CFD.  But there are many publications validating simulations with other simulations, layer upon layer.  The conundrum is as the simulations become more complex, validation becomes more complex to the point that in some cases it can’t be done.  I also agree that working closely with a skilled machinist greatly enhances the engineer’s design skills, but its not feasible for one to be both nowadays.

  • bscmath78

    sages, plus “1992 median family income for a family of four of $40,763″ comes from a September 21, 1992 article in Fortune Magazine “The Truth About the Rich and the Poor:  Are the wealthy gaining at the expense of the poor and the middle class? Conservatives and liberals can’t agree. Rhetoric aside, here are the facts.”
    http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1992/09/21/76872/index.htm
    “(defined as at least two times the national median, which for a family of four is $40,763)”

    Almost 20 years later there are similar debates.

  • bscmath78

    sages, page 192 of the same Statistics 3rd Edition points out that the scatter diagram for income vs. education is heteroscedastic, which in this case means that the diagram spreads out as education increasing, which means the errors in the linear model increase as education increases.

    Unfortunately the textbook does not discuss how the correlation coefficient would change if the data was restricted to those with 12 or more years of education.  It also doesn’t discuss the impact of removing outliers, say removing the top and bottom 10% of income earners.  It doesn’t discuss making both those changes.  When you look at the scatter diagrams you see that there are a few people at various education levels that do very, very well, which suggests that this is because of the attributes of the individual combined with luck, and not strongly attributable to education.

  • manoflamancha

    John Updike.

  • manoflamancha

    All these thoughts in your first two paragraphs came to mind as I composed my first math book. It is highly regarded by students, and a best seller, but a bit of a sell-out on my part, to my eternal regret. You should compile your thousands of post, use heavy surgery, and publish as a book. Of course, what I think is very good, you’d probably cut out! I could be Boswell to your Johnson, or vice versa? 
    I was thinking of “Triumph of the Will” directed in 1934 by popular German actress Leni Riefenstahl as you surmised. It was given many major awards at the time for its original cinematography, but who knew the future to come?

  • bscmath78

     manoflamancha, the retrospective path of a young artist, “in my heart an indomitable will, I journeyed to Vienna.” I think Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” would have been hint enough (quoted above).  If not that, then how about “The Night of the Long Knives” which occurred before the Nazi Party congress. The film itself  with its regimentation, militarism, fanaticism, swastikas etc. would also seem hint enough.

  • Tony Oran

    I think one of the major issues is the isolation that students feel in such programs. There is a great deal of material to be covered, yet the interactions are limited – including student to student, student to professor, and professor to professor. Therefore, the last point in the article is one of the keys – improve interactions, but more importantly embrace social and collaborative learning. There are tools available that allows institutions to connect like never before and can foster co-teaching with multiple professors, social media type collaboration for students and more….

  • manoflamancha

    See bradleyhockey two days ago. Engineering degrees are not awarded to teams!

  • manoflamancha

    By the way, Clinton, Computer Science is NOT Engineering. So, confine your generalizations to that somewhat easier college program :)