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Do Fetuses Feel Pain?

June 28, 2011, 2:25 pm

The Alabama state legislature recently passed a ban on abortions after 20 weeks, except when the mother’s health is in danger. Why 20 weeks? A Republican state senator explains: “It’s clear that a baby at 20 weeks experiences pain. There’s no doubt about that.”

In reporting on the recent ban, which follows similar bans in several other states, an article in The New York Times contends that the argument that fetuses can feel pain at 20 weeks is “disputed by mainstream medical organizations in the United States and Britain.” It goes on to assert that supporters of these bans make such claims “in the face of scientific criticism.”

So on one side we have politicians, while on the other we have Science. I’m guessing a lot of New York Times readers sadly shook their heads at the triumph of blatant propaganda over peer-reviewed evidence.

Which would be an understandable reaction — but only if you knew nothing about the very real, continuing debate regarding fetal pain.

Let’s start with the assertion by the Alabama state legislator, whose name is Scott Beason. He said that “there’s no doubt” that fetuses at 20 weeks experience pain. That’s not true. There is quite a bit of doubt about that among researchers. To say otherwise you have to be uninformed or dishonest.

But it’s also misleading to portray the debate as one between credentialed scientists and know-nothing activists. Here’s an example: the article mentions a report by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in Britain, published last year, which says that “pain is not possible until after 24 weeks” because, prior to that time, fetuses lack the necessary cortical connections.

Seems pretty definitive. That report, however, has been criticized by scientists like Martin Ward Platt, an honorary clinical reader in neonatal and pediatric medicine at Newcastle University and chairman of a committee that studies pain in children. In an editorial published in Fetal and Neonatal, Platt mocks the report as “an emperor with no clothes” that employs “wishful thinking for empirical enquiry.”

Specifically, Platt writes that the report presents “no evidence for the contention that human fetuses lack awareness” and argues that fetal hearing, sleeping and waking, and memory, suggest otherwise. While it’s true, he writes, that fetuses at 20 weeks lack a cortex, that doesn’t mean stress and pain can’t be experienced in other ways.

That’s essentially what Sunny Anand, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Arkansas, has attempted to prove in multiple papers. In one of those papers, he wrote that “Whereas evidence for conscious pain perception is indirect, evidence for the subconscious incorporation of pain into neurological development and plasticity is incontrovertible.” In slightly plainer English, Anand wrote in the London Times that research has shown that the cortex is “not essential” for pain in adults, and therefore it shouldn’t be the standard for fetuses.

The New York Times article does concede that “a handful” of scientists think fetuses can feel pain even without a cortex. But it doesn’t name them or offer any of their arguments. Instead, it links to a website created by anti-abortion activists, again reinforcing the (inaccurate) conclusion that activists are on one side and scientists are on the other. The dismissive “handful” is nice, too.

What any of this has to do with abortion is unclear. Neither Platt nor Anand argue for abortion restrictions (in fact, Platt states that he favors Britain’s current law, which permits abortions up to 24 weeks). The topic of fetal pain is usually raised when doctors and researchers discuss whether to provide anesthesia during fetal surgery. Cherry-picking research to gin up support for new anti-abortion laws is lame and manipulative.

But so is pretending like there’s no debate.

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  • artsfbb

    I wonder why pain itself is being treated as a key issue here.  Are we to think that awareness of pain is a sure sign of the full humanity or right-to-life of the fetus?  If so, that argument needs to be made. In the past some bright people (I believe Descartes was in that group) thought that even “higher” animals such as dogs couldn’t really feel pain, but only appeared to do so.  But these days people who acknowledge that cows and deer do feel pain go ahead and eat or hunt them.  I’m not making any judgment about status of the fetus, or equating every kind of pain, across species. I’m simply struck that it seems as though a great many other considerations (ethical, religious, medical) would take precedence over the question of pain per se. 

  • lewandowski

    I am so glad a politican can now be a medical expert on the definition of pain and baning abortion after 20 weeks.  Now if America could just take so much care that we stop sending 20 year-old soldiers into harms way for political purposes.  That fip of the coin seems so easy for politicans.

  • 22067030

    During the 19th century, white settlers claimed that native Americans did not feel pain.  More recently, that claim has been made of a number of animals.  I recall S. J. Gould saying of a caterpillar convulsing while being parasitized by wasps that the caterpillar was probably responding more to the commotion than to any physical pain. There are discussions of how much pain we inflict on animals, wild and domesticated.

    Given the rather dreary history of this sort of claim, we probably should regard it with suspicion.  Especially considering the ideological baggage that often accompanies it.

    —–GLMcColm

  • sand6432

    Feeling pain is relevant to abortion to the extent that the case for the fetus’s moral standing is based on sentience. Some philosophers, like Wayne Sumner (in Abortion and Moral Theory, Princeton, 1981) argue in just this fashion to support philosophically what is the official position of the U.S. Supreme Court, viz., that abortion is legal before the third trimester. But this argument then presumably has implications for one’s view of animal rights since animals also experience pain and are sentient creatures. Indeed, another utilitarian, Peter Singer, has made just this extension of the argument in his opposition to speciesism in moral theory.—Sandy Thatcher

  • rogue_academic

    Always beats me — rightists are generally pro hunting but anti-abortion, while leftists are for abortion and against hunting. Can’t have it both ways, me thinks, be pro-life or pro-death, but do it consistently.

  • crunchycon

    so, boring, you are equating humans with animals? Should animals be given the same rights and considerations as humans?

  • quacker

    The ability or inability to feel pain is not a determinant of a right to life.  Congenital analgesia is a recognized medical condition (rare though it may be) wherein the “afflicted” person cannot feel pain – and has never felt pain.  Yet no one would suggest that killing such an individual is justifiable for that reason alone.  Red herrings abound in the abortion debate. 

  • rogue_academic

    But aren’t 20 week old fetuses quite closer to animals biologically, in the levels of awareness, consciousness, etc.?

  • countinplaces

    I think the underlying problem with your logic is that when you place a human and an animal side-by-side there is ABSOLUTELY NO comparison in their inherent value or standing.  Animals are to be respected and at times managed with tools that end their life (hunted).  Those who are against abortion simply believe that the fetus is already a life and no one of any ethical standing would find it acceptable to use management tools to involuntarily end human life.  

  • quacker

    So let’s just pull the plug on all our comatose brethren since at that particular moment in time, they are “quite close to animals biologically, in the levels of awareness, consciousness, etc.”

  • rogue_academic

    Exactly, they believe, but some beliefs are worth laughing at. 

  • tdb489

    Too frequently, I see the same or similar CHE article in another newspaper.  When I open the CHE, I expect to see original articles on matters that concern academia.    An article on fetuses does not belong here.

  • rogue_academic

    No, better to have death panels instead, so the plugs are pulled on our selected comatose brethren.

  • 11169272

    I agree with tdb489 about the inappropriateness of this topic appearing in the CHE. The article, however one may feel about it, belongs in quite a different periodical altogether, not in one devoted to matters relating to higher education.

  • livefreeordie2

    My, my. . . is there any argument that the left won’t make to justify the sacrifice of unborn lives on the altar of women’s rights?  It’s okay to kill the unborn because they don’t feel pain (and just in case they do, we’ll give them an anesthesia before we put a scissors through the base of their skulls).

    Swell.

  • clune

    A fetus at 20 weeks has the genetic code to develop into a sentient being, whereas an animal’s genetic code does not have that blueprint.

  • jkruark

    Hi, tdb489 and 11169272. As a Chronicle editor, I’m curious about your suggestion that CHE shouldn’t cover university-based research– in this case the mainstream news media’s misrepresentation of that research. As a colleague of mine has mused, wouldn’t that be like Variety, the trade publication for the entertainment industry, not writing about movies?

  • 11274135

    Such illuminating and elevating discussion. Makes you proud to be engaged in higher education.

  • benchgroup

    The only relevant question is whether all women have the right to make a choice–I think the Constitution calls this equal protection.  Redneck legislators and various right-wing Republicans like Scalia have chipped away at this fundamental right of women by inventing all kinds of reasons why full and unfettered access to abortion should be limited or eliminated.  The so-called “pain” issue is just the latest; the purpose of creating this issue and publicizing it through laws and regulations is to frighten or appall people into clamping down on women’s rights.  Remember the graphic photos of so-called “partial birth abortion”? Same purpose–frighten people into supporting draconian sanctions that restrict the constitutional rights of women. 

    Those who oppose abortion have the right not to engage in it.  Why isn’t this enough for them?

  • crunchycon

    benchgroup – you are mistaken. The group that shamelessly used a pregnant woman on whose behalf they took the case to the supreme court argued that it was a “right to privacy” issue NOT an issue of equal protection.  If it WERE equal protection, then where would the protection, equally, of the rights of the father?  There is no “fundamental” right to kill an unborn baby, at any weeks of gestation, anywhere in the constitution.  It was erroneously decided by a liberal, activist supreme court.
     

  • landrumkelly

    I read the Times every day, but there are two areas for which I go elsewhere: sports and science.

  • newsoffice

    It seems most of you have missed the fundamentally obvious point to be against abortion, particularly in the second trimester so let me elucidate it for you: Medical doctors spend hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars to save “fetuses” that are born prematurely — between 20 and 24 weeks. Why do they do this? Because the mother wants the baby (fetus) and therefore the baby has “value” The same baby can be sucked out through a garden hose and dumped in the garbage because the mother does not want it and therefore it has no value. Do you see my point or is it lost on you? Value of life should not be assigned based on a third party attitude. Your life for example should not be dependent on what my feelings are about you.  (Remember when women were liberated from being the orpoerty of their husbdands?) Women cannot have abortion on demand and should not be allowed to have an abortion after the first trimester barring VERY extenuating circumstances (e.g. her life endangered).

    Let’s face it: The more we learn about life in the womb the more reasons to support pro-lifers. You may not like it, but it is true. “Fetuses” even at 20 weeks are extremely complex beings.

    -From a woman, who also agrees with Virtue is Boring: You can’t have it both ways. Either you support violence or you don’t. I choose not to support violence.

  • crunchycon

    Are you, then, a vegan, newsoffice?  If you aren’t then your argument doesn’t hold water.  BTW, I do agree with much of the body of your posting.

  • crunchycon

    that is to say, the “argument” in your signature explanation
     

  • rogue_academic

    Ah, so it is not the divine soul that separates humans from animals, but the sequence of nucleobases present in every pile of poop. I do not think many pro-lifers would be happy with your argument.

  • vceross

    Since we cannot agree on

    1)  When life begins
    2)  Whether women should have the right to control what happens to their bodies

    Let us recognize the rhetorical stalemate and move on. 

    Our political system is predicated on public reason, not on science, religion, or virtues. As far as I can tell, the only common ground the pro- and anti-abortionists hold is the autonomy of the individual.  Thus, unless we intend to change the nature of our governance, we must respect individual autonomy, and allow individuals to make decisions about their own bodies.   

    Meanwhile, debates can and should continue, contributing to public reason, until the majority of us can find common ground that advances one or the other position. 

    In short, this is not a matter that should be decided by right-wing, left-wing, or mainstream politicians.  They are our representatives, not our sovereigns. 

  • goldenrae9

    Doesn’t the mother feel pain in this instance too?

  • inlibrarian

    I think the point of the article is worth discussing:  Both sides ignore research that appears contradictory to their view and this is academically dishonest.  Since they are uncomfortable dealing with this, the discussions–on both sides–devolve into insults and name-calling.

    As a thoughtful person who is pro-life, I would like to see both sides agree that every abortion is a tragedy both for the baby (or fetus, if it makes you feel more comfortable using medical terminology) and for the mother.  An unplanned pregnancy  (or one with potentially life-threatening complications) not what she wanted to happen in her life.  Going from there, we can discuss how to best limit the occurrences of this and help those women who are in this situation. 

  • katisumas

    Good point!  If the mother is in pain, the fetus might be too, because the fetus is part of the mother’s organism until the umbilical cord is actually severed.

    I’m constantly amazed that those very politicians who are concerned about “fetal pain” don’t give a hoot about a pregnant woman’s pain so they cheerfully insure that so many of us don’t have access to prenatal care.

    And then of course, they seem to believe that once born, a baby feels no pain and hunger — is that why these same politicians are cutting funds for nutrition for pregnant women and babies (some of whom need very expensive special formula to survive) and young children?  And is that why these same politicians are so adamantly oppposed to medical care access for all of us and is that why the US has a higher miscarriage and infant mortality rate than all “wealthy” countries?  Is that why they are also trying to eliminate Planned Parenthood which devotes 97% of its resources to gynecological care?  (at the risk of belaboring the obvious, if a woman doesn’t have proper gynecological care, she might no be able to carry a fetus to term in the future.)

    So is the supposed concern for fetal pain gross hypocrisy or just plain insanity? 

  • katisumas

    It’s not that!  Many leftists are hunters as well.  And some rightists are vegetarian.

    The blatant contradiction is that at present the right believes that prenatal care should NOT  be available to all pregnant women.  Why are so called prolifers not concerned about miscarriages and infant deaths which have been causaly linked over and over again to lack of prenatal care and proper nutrition?

  • katisumas

    I have an advance  directive (“living will”).  Everybody should have one.  I don’t plan on my body existing for decades in a comatose state. 

  • katisumas

    To Virtue is Boring, we have death panels already.  They are called private health insurers.  Oh and the people who want to basically do away with Medicare….

  • katisumas

    Mamals are sentient beings.

    A fetus is part of another organism.  It is entirely dependent on it for survival and partake of its blood as well as react to the carrier’s feelings. 

    A fetus is not a sentient being on its own.  It’s certainly not sentient the way my dog is.   

    I say this as a mother and grandmother who, unlike so many so called pro-lifers, actually loves babies and children. 

  • katisumas

    Well put!

  • katisumas

    I would respect your view (though I wouldn’t agree with them) but since you mentioned this as a political issue (“right” v. “left”), I have to assume that you are opposed to insuring access to health care to all pregnant women and to all babies and to all children?

    Could I also assume that you don’t give a hoot about the US high rate of miscarriages and infant deaths.  Our rate exceeds by far that of all other wealthy countries.  But then all other Western countries make sure that pregnant women have access to prenatal care….  and their people seem to love babies and  don’t want them to die for lack of medical care and nutrition as our right wingers who are cheerfully cutting down nutrition program for pregnant women and young children…. not to mention prenatal clinics, not to mention atticking Planned Parenthood which devotes 97% of its resources to gynecological care –something crucial if a woman wants to actually carry a fetus to term 

    If you care about fetusses surely, shouldn’t you care about prenatal care?  You know, if the mother dies, the fetus dies too.  The fetus is PART of the mother. 

    Do you agree with your fellow ”pro-life” rightwing Congressman who objected to forcing private insurers to cover pre-natal and delivery care by saying “I can’t get pregnant, so why should my insurer cover pregnancies”?

    Or is it just that you resent women for being able to give life, to have their own bodies nurture a part of themselves into birth, so you want to pretend that the mother doesn’t matter?

    Does your “live free” only applies to men, and you want the government to take over my womb?

  • olmsted

    Author Bartlett, like so many (including the AP) who report or comment on these topics in the media, without thought employs bias language.  The classic and enduring example of this is the negative-oriented phrase “anti-abortion”.  I use this example to underscore the habit of taking sides with term (however unwittingly).  The self-selected/proclaimed moniker of “pro-life” is eschewed for the negative one, whilst the opposition is accorded the right to be recognized by their preferred term: pro-choice.

    Switch the shoes to the other foot.  Would not there be an uproar if the media used the terms:

     ”anti-life” vs “pro-life”?  

    Instead we have the anti- vs. pro- language.  All of these matters because it illustrates the biases in reporting and, generally, in the framing of the debate.  Very political debates, because any time we label movements we risk bias.  And that is exceptionally true with prefixes like pro- and anti- are employed.  

    The prefixes are applied to, alternately, LIFE, CHOICE and ABORTION.  By defaulting to the terms preferred by abortion advocates the debate is biased toward them.  Any description of the opposition must therefore be “anti”.  

  • olmsted

    Others without blinders on are quite capable of seeing that it’s not merely about one individual’s choice…it’s about the rights of all individuals involved.  Thus the question of who are rightful individuals makes perfect sense.  I shudder to think that so many can brush aside the idea of individuals’ rights.  

    The pain issue is part of asking who exactly are the individuals.  Blinders, though, will make one dismiss such questions.  But blinders come from not wanting to entertain any view/outcome other than your own.

    Consider the notion of fetal/infant viability.  Would it be reasonable to terminate an unwanted life after the “individual” was birthed?  That infant is not suddenly “viable” because it is out of the womb.  Left on its own, it has no chance.  Yet we feel something has drastically changed.  

  • olmsted

    And pro-choice advocates grossly ignore the trauma wrought on the women (often for decades) from aborting one’s child…

  • katisumas

    A fetus is not an “unborn baby”.  A fetus is part of a mother’s organism.  Outside of its mother it will die.

    PRIVACY:  the government has no right to meddle with what’s going on in my womb.  It has no right to come between me and my doctor. 

    SLAVERY:  the government or any person does not have the right to take over my body for their own ends.  This is even more blatant when so called “prolifers” want to force victims of rape to carry the resulting pregnancy to term.   Think of the implications. 

    SPERM:  once it’s outside of your body it’s no longer yours.  Just as, once a fetus turns into a viable infant  because it’s outside of the mother and the umbilical cord is cut, is no longer hers.  It’s not a thing she or he owns.  it’s a member of society with certain rights and not a slave. 

    FATHERS’ RIGHTS:  I hope all couples who decide to have children know that it’s their duty if they split up to maintain enough of a cordial relationship so that the split won’t tear their children apart.   A father or any other person has the right to parenthood if they become the partner of the pregnant woman and are there with her every step of the way, including the birth.  If they nurture the infant and baby as much or more as the mother does.  A man claiming father’s rights who has never changed a diaper or fed a baby in the middle of the night, or who has never changed a diaper at all, doesn’t have a leg to stand on. 

    At the same time, I do think  that collectively, i.e. our government, should insure that we all have access to medical care, particularly to prenatal care.  I have to assume that many so called pro-lifers are not concerned about miscarriages and infant deaths?  They are also not concerned about children’s  health and nutrition (blackmailing the country to cut these programs).  I have to assume that many so called pro-lifers don’t actually love, let alone like children, particularly their daughters.

  • inlibrarian

    The fact that you call the woman involved in all this a “mother” implies that there is a baby involved in this somewhere. I think you are oversimplifying the complex issues to make your case.  You negate “ownership” of the sperm to serve your viewpoint–I don’t think it would be so simple if a woman found that her stored and harvested eggs were found to be no longer hers. We have seen the complexity of this in surrogacy cases where the surrogate mother (that word again!) decided that she wanted to keep the baby that was implanted as an embryo.

    Suggesting that people who disagree with you on this don’t like or love their daughters is so offensive and ridiculous that I don’t even know where to start.

  • katisumas

    Medical care is only expended on fetuses that are viable (and mostly for women who have health insurance!).  Late term abortions are usually reserved for fetuses that are  dying or sometimes already dead, and/or women who would  die if they carried the pregnancy to term.

    Perhaps you might want to read about women who had to have late terms abortions?  Usually, these are women who deeply wanted that baby, so having to need a late term abortion was for them as much a heartbreak as if they had miscarried a much wanted baby.

    The other category of late term abortions, for which Dr Tiller was murdered, was pregnant children who usually got pregnant through rape or total ignorance (forstered by today’s lack of real sex ed in schools).  One of Dr Tiller’s patients was a 10 year old girl for whom he paid the airfare from Florida, and like many of his patients, he treated free of charge. 

    Please read up on what happens to many girls in some Third World countries where  they are forced into very young marriages.  They risk horrible complications when they give birth including fistulas (where the walls separating the uterus and the bladder and the colons break down) so that the girl becomes incontinent and then gets ostracised by the community. 

    There’s a famous hospital in Addis Ababa (Ethipia) that does nothing but surgery to fix fistulas young women suffer from having given birth at too young an age. They are only dealing with the tip of the iceberg.

    The issue is, if you have a daughter, would you like her to give birth at age ten?  Wouldn’t you  instead forster the sort of relationship that would insure that she would confide in you before the pregnancy gets too  advanced?  Chiddren’s bodies are not made to give birth.  Giving birth at too young an age will probably also make it impossible for them to carry a pregnancy to term when adult.

    If you’re thinking of an argument that women used to marry much younger than now, think again:  if you go back two or three generations, the average age women had their first periods was 18!

  • katisumas

    tbstoller,  I do agree with the gist of your post.

    You seem more sensitive than most people who call themselves “pro-life” so I am assuming you are also supporting access to prenatal care for pregnant women, even if they’re low income (and as we know too well their ranks are increasing in the Great Recession). and medical care for babies and children and nutrition for these groups. 

    I also assume from your post that you’re not  among those working to do away with Planned Parentood and that you also support real sex ed in schools.  I am struck by how much fewer abortions there are in Western Europe and Canada where abortions are freely available and the prolife people are not prone to terrorizing abortion providers and pregnant women (or in the US, terrorizing women going to Planned Parenthood  to get their pap smears and mamograms and other gynecological treatments). 

    The extreme right which these days pass themselves off as “conservatives” doesn’t care about children that are already here.  It seems that a newborn baby  is immediately labelled as a “freelaoder” if his/her family is low income. 

    In my experience there is a lot of common ground between true pro-life people like you and pro-choice people like me.  One of the common ground is caring for the health and well being all our children.

  • greeneyeshade

    Well, I’m pro-life and you can laugh at my beliefs–I’m OK with that, but to support my thinking on the subject I only need to see what science says about what happens from the moment of conception onwards–a new life with its own genetic code.  We seem to go through logical gynmnastics trying to prove that that tiny spark of life is any less than a human being at the beginning of its existence.

  • gomiller

    @olmsted, post-abortion trauma is not universally present in all women who elect the procedure, nor is it universally intense or decades long.  Women should be permitted to decide for themselves whether they will be traumatized, and whether that trauma is worth it to them.

  • quacker

    Your contention that a “fetus is part of a mother’s organism” is scientifically and theologically false.  Similarly, basing the definition of human life on ”viability” is absurd.

    The Science: 
    Every cell in the mother’s body shares the mother’s common DNA signature, including her unfertilized ovum.  However, once the ovum is fertilized, the resulting cell reflects a new and unique combination of genetic material from both the mother and the father.  All the cells that spring from that initial ferilized ovum will carry that new unique DNA signature.  Hence, a new human “life” begins. The fetus is not a part of the mother’s organism – the mother’s body is the host for this new life.  The fact that a fetus cannot survive on its own outside the women’s womb is nothing more than an artifact of contemporary medical science. Two hundred years ago, almost all preemies died despite the best care available at the time.  And it’s patently obvious that children under the age of two will almost certainly die without support from other humans. If the human race persists long enough, medical science will eventually succeed in artificially hosting a human life from fertilization to the point where a host environment is no longer required, an event we currently call birth.   

    Theology:
    King James Bible, Jeremiah 1:5,  ”Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” 
    New American Standard Bible, Jeremiah 1:5, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

  • 22259152

    Abortion is not a right, it is not even humane.  Where’s PETA?

  • 22067030

    To be precise, politicians who SAY that they are concerned about “fetal pain”.  Some opponents of abortion rights use fetal pain arguments because they think that they will sell better than the arguments that they personally find more compelling.  Such a publicly expressed concern is not insanity, and it is not so much hypocrisy as marketing.

    Of course, the pro-life crowd has no monopoly on machiavellian marketing.  I recall one newspaper editor telling me that the two issues generating the most (and the most extreme) letters were abortion and Israel.  That was in the 1980s, and things haven’t changed all that much, have they?

    —–GL McColm

  • elle82

    What about the death penalty or military involvement, then? I think those are better comparisons to abortion than hunting because they involve ending human life…many on the right claim to be “pro-life” but this seems to apply primarily to fetuses, not to adults who have been convicted of crimes or to people who have the misfortune of living in countries in which we wage war….

  • vlghess

    This comment is not meant to imply an opinion about abortion, which should be argued on other grounds. However, a fetus, while not an independent being, can’t be considered to be biologically “part of the mother” either–it’s got its own genome and the potential of independent existence as a separate organism. Perhaps symbiosis is the more appropriate model: two separate organisms at least one of which is dependent upon the other for some facets of its life.

  • cbjones1943

    Contrary to your conclusion, I suggest that “there’s no debate”.  All species of animals and plants (I am not certain about viruses), single-cell (e.g., amoeba, paramecia) and multi-cell [e.g., sponges, humans (including mammals at all stages of development)], exhibit response(s) (often withdrawal) to aversive stimuli.  Displaying response(s) to aversive stimuli does not require a brain or an approximation of same (e.g., insect sensory networks).

    Blog: http://vertebratesocialbehavior.blogspot.com
    Twitter: http://twitter.com/cbjones1943

  • ledzep

    Call our bluff, then. Trade you meaningful restrictions on abortion for vastly expanded support for prenatal and postnatal care, any day of the week. The claim that abortion is a wedge issue usually ignores the flip side, which is this: the Democratic party could gain instant mass defections from social conservatives if they presented anything remotely pro-life, especially at the national level. Want support for more care for women and children? Social conservatives have built a grassroots network of centers to provide resources for women and children, before and after birth. Polls back this up, even now when the Tea Party is so visible: there are lots of people who are socially conservative but economically more centrist or even liberal-leaning when it comes to government programs. But the feminist movement has a death grip on the Democratic party platform, so I don’t anticipate anything like this happening anytime soon.

  • ledzep

    I think it’s a mistake to focus just on the genetic code, as virtue_is_boring’s response points out. But it’s true that the fetus is a different kind of organism than non-human animals, and it’s not at all crazy to think that it’s membership in the kind or species (which species has certain potentialities and characteristics, even though its immature members haven’t developed or can’t exercise them yet) that matters, that makes one a person or however you want to characterize full human moral status. Otherwise you get these views, like Peter Singer’s and Michael Tooley’s, where they have to bend over backwards to avoid the conclusion that someone in a temporary coma is no longer a person.

  • ledzep

    To katisumas’ reply below: It follows from your argument that a fetus isn’t a mammal. Come again?

  • ledzep

    Other countries also don’t try to save premature infants at the levels we do in the US, and they don’t even record their infant mortality rates in a consistent way across developed countries.

    As to freedom, I’ll let livefree speak for himself (or herself!), but generally the anti-abortion position is just that since an innocent human being shouldn’t be killed, there have to be restraints on freedom, and since women alone can bear and nurture another human being within their body, this limitation is cashed out differently in the respective cases of men and women. But only to the extent necessary to protect the basic right to life. In other words, yes, we do think there are limitations on womens’ freedom that are particular to women, but only for the very good reason that only women are in the situation of having another human being within their bodies. If your starting position is that no limitations on women’s freedom that are particular to women are acceptable, then I guess you have two options: you admit that freedom requires the freedom to kill another human being, or you decide to strategically shrink the category of human beings. “their own bodies nurture a part of themselves into birth” suggests that you are taking the latter option. Your earlier comment ascribed some mystical significance to the cutting of the umbilical cord – as if the “part” of the mother’s body is magically changed into a real child at that moment. Kind of like Pinocchio, I guess?

  • kjmader

    While post-abortion trauma may not be universally present in all women, it does present itself in an overwhelming majority.  It may not happen immediately, but most women, at some point in their lives, do feel some sort of trauma related to aborting a baby.  I have several friends who had abortions during their late teens and early twenties, and every one of them regret it now.  They all mourn the anniversary of that procedure every year.  I don’t think any woman can possibly know how she will react, until it’s too late to do anything about it.  Although I am basically pro-life, I know there are instances when abortion may be the only option.  However, I do not agree with late-term abortion at all. With medical technology today, that baby stands a very good chance of survival on the outside, and it doesn’t deserve to be treated in that way.  If there is an emergency medical complication that causes the need for a late-term abortion, it needs to be handled in a more humane way.  It’s terrible to think about what happens to that poor baby during this process, and really angers me that some women do it just because they no longer want the child.  There’s absolutely no reason not to use birth control in a society that is as free thinking about sex as ours.  In my opinion, abortion is not, and should not be, used as a form of birth control.

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