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Apparently, It Is Time for a Search-Committee Code of Conduct

May 12, 2011, 11:40 am

Yowza! After my recent post, “Is It Time for a Search Committee Code of Conduct?,” more than 50 of you wrote in to say “Heck, yeah” and were kind enough to provide dozens of thoughtful suggestions. I’ve been thinking about how to organize your ideas into something that would be usable and not preachy. Rather than provide a checklist of good practices, I thought I’d provide a set of questions to help search committees evaluate the quality of the experience they provide to candidates. Here goes:

Physiological Needs
Did we attend to the candidate’s basic needs? Did we provide water during the interview? Was the schedule designed to allow for regular restroom breaks? If the candidate traveled from west to east, did we avoid a 7:00 a.m. start time? Did “working lunches” allow the candidate to actually to eat? Were inquiries made in advance so that vegetarians were not subjected to the best steak place in town? Did we non-judgmentally inquire if accommodations were necessary so that we avoided holding a meeting in a building without an elevator when inviting a candidate with mobility challenges?

Logistical Needs
Did we provide transportation from the airport or at least good directions to the interview? Did we arrange for a decent place for the candidate to stay that allowed for privacy and downtime (as in not the search chair’s guest bedroom)? Did we provide bios of the search committee and name tents during meetings so the candidate had a sense of his/her audience?

Financial Needs
Did we make travel arrangements or provide prompt reimbursement for them?

Self-Esteem Needs
Did we make the candidate feel valued and interesting? Did we make sure not to cause embarrassment by talking to others about the candidate without permission? Did we invite only those who were serious contenders for the role? If a committee member started asking combative questions, did we protect the candidate by cutting him off? Did we politely notify candidates as soon as they were no longer in the running?

Truth Needs
Were we honest about the challenges currently facing our institution? Did we fairly represent the actual workload and working conditions? Were we upfront about the true “costs” of employment (e.g., unusually high health-insurance costs, waiting periods for retirement contributions, parking fees, inability to provide basic office equipment)?

Thanks for your excellent suggestions. What else do we need to add to the list?

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  • timelord33

    Allison, I enjoyed reading your articles. Please note that the link in the first paragraph is not valid.
    I would add the following questions to the code of conduct:

    Did each candidate interact with the search committee members individually and as a group in the ways previously described to each candidate?

    Did we address each candidates questions well during and immediately after their interview?

  • vaillancourt_az

    Thanks for the alert on the link; I’ve notified the folks at the Chronicle. The URL is: http://chronicle.com/blogs/onhiring/is-it-time-for-a-search-committee-code-of-standards/28628 .
    Good additional questions!

  • shushufindi

    I would add some guidelines about maintaining prompt, courteous, and professional communications with all of the applicants for a position. This should include a notification that a person’s application has been received – I think this step is normally completed as applicants are told they must filll out a questionaire to meet their institution’s affirmative action requirements. Some departments fall down after they have made their long or short lists of canditates by not sending prompt notifications to the people who have not made these lists. I have also seen one case in which a department sent a “rejection letter” on a postcard which could have been read by people at the candidate’s then current institution (a violation of privacy).

  • chemoderator

    Thanks. The link should work now.

  • walkingtree

    I never had anyone give me a ride from and to the airport in all my job interviews. It was like, yeah, find your way, dude. I almost missed my plane while taking a wrong train. The search committee asked questions non-stop at meals, I hardly ate anything whole day. For another interview, I wandered alone the campus whole day, because nobody bothered to show me around. Did my job talk and left. All the while, the SC complained to each other that no one was in charge. One SC had control issue and stood right outside the restroom like a prison guard and waited for me to come out. That was the person’s idea of a humane bathroom break.

  • wchristie

    These are excellent suggestions. But as long as we are in a buyer’s market, there is little likelihood that an institution will feel compelled to abide by them. Indeed, for many institutions, especially the smaller liberal arts colleges, there is little likelihood that most members of search committees will even have seen these suggestions. Administrators, take note.

  • plinthic

    How about respect for personal differences and beliefs?  I interviewed for a job in the chemistry department of a secular private university where the members of the department just happened to be rather devout Christians.  They kept turning the conversation around to the churches in town, who was a member of which church, whether I’d like to visit churches while in town, etc.  I kept avoiding these questions until finally they decided I must be Jewish.  Because if you aren’t a Christian well then you must be Jewish, right?

    And then they gave the job to the inside candidate anyway. 

  • vaillancourt_az

    chemoderator: U rock

  • akprof

     I never once did NOT pick up the candidate – and take them back to the airport. How rude!!

  • akprof

    We’re not in a buyer’s market in every discipline. For nursing, it is definitely a seller’s market. 

  • akprof

    Aren’t you actually glad that they gave to job to someone else – save you from having to make a decision – though, for me, th edecision would have been made already! 

  • missoularedhead

    I agree. In applying for jobs, I had several instances where I found out who had been hired (not me!) via social media, etc. In some cases, I didn’t even get a ‘hey, we got your application materials’ email, which is simple enough to do.  

  • tianan2011

    Definitely add a separate category entitled “Communication Needs.”  I’ve been in senior searches at prestigious R1s where the only communication ever received, start to finish, was a one-line email from the dept. secretary acknowledging receipt of the packet.  No letter, nothing, just word on the grapevine of who got the job.  Committees should agree on a timeline for communicating with ALL candidates, inform the candidates of the timeline, and stick to it. Even if the SC wants to keep a few people on a waitlist, if the first or second choices fall through, they can be upfront about it:  “Given the way that searches can change, it is possible that we might contact you in [February, March, etc.], but at this time we do not anticipate doing so.”  And END the search professionally, with prompt rejection letters–not never, not in July, but before the end of the semester if at all possible!  For institutions accepting state funds, at the very least, this minimum level of professionalism should be required.

  • http://www.facebook.com/douglas.a.smith Doug Smith

    There are fewer and fewer institutions paying and/or arranging travel.  I had to find my way out to my most recent interview.  Also, there seems to be a double standard where the communication shuts off.  I know of a candidate that had a phone interview with two separate institutions, waited a month to request a status update, and still never heard back.  Often candidates seem to find out more by logging into the employment system rather than through communication with the particular offices or HR departments.  
    Also I would add that it is obvious to tell someone on the search committee is checking his or her phone under the table, even in one of those larger group settings.  
    (The working lunch idea still haunts me from back to my grad school days.)

  • djhennessey2000

     Travel payments are tough.  For entry-level staff positions, we struggle over whether or not to invite candidates from a distance since we can’t pay for them.  If someone is a lead candidate, we inform them of the number of finalists (without mentioning he or she is a favored one) and leave the decision to him or her about paying their own way.  There are times we have not invited someone lower on the list because I don’t want to have them invest in a long shot when it seems like a candidate the committee is more interested will likely get the offer unless the campus interview is flubbed.  But I’m not sure it’s fair not to give the person on the bubble a chance.

  • blue_state_academic

    I’ve been through interviews for senior positions recently, and for the most part was treated very respectfully, with almost all of the things mentioned here being done.  The one thing I wish the hiring institutions had done, but hadn’t, was the use of name tents for participants in meetings.  I do my best to remember names, but when you’re moving every hour over the course of two days to a new group of anywhere from 5 to 20 people, it’s particularly difficult to do this.  So name (and title) tents would have been a nice and helpful touch.

    How you are treated as a candidate says a lot about the hiring institution. You can learn quite a bit about how people are valued in the organization, how relationships work among the many participants, from how they treat candidates.

  • maw57

    Good article, Allison, and good suggestions for additions in comments. But can you explain what is to me the one enigmatic sentence: “Did we make sure not to cause embarrassment by talking to others about the candidate without permission?” Who are the “others” here?

  • vaillancourt_az

    maw57: At some point, it becomes reasonable and necessary to seek information from people not on the candidate’s reference list. It’s good manners is to alert the candidate of your plans to do this so that he/she can alert others (like their department chair or president) or even pull out before the calls begin. 

  • dpn33

    Sellers’ market or buyers’ market, we’re talking about common courtesy and respect. This isn’t suggesting private planes, limos, or hand-delivered gilt-edged letters of response. Just reasonable consideration. Apparently, that’s too much to ask from many institutions. Hope SOME see part of this conversation and react appropriately.

  • richrobles

    One other thing to remember is ensuring the candidate’s right to privacy.  I remember long ago when my wife interviewed for a student affairs position at an institution she told me that copies of her resume and HR job application were spread around the table of the room she was interviewing in.  As she watched people leave, some of the folks took her application packet or threw it in the conference room trash can.  From that experience, I make it a practice whenever I coordinate interviews to collect and dispose copies of resumes and/or any private information about the candidate. Questions to consider are the following: Is the resume sufficient to provide interviewers? Who is collecting the resumes and evaluations after each interview session? If there a portfolio is being evaluated, who needs access to that piece and how is that secured?

  • cbres

    For high-level searches especially (though this could work with any search), I strongly recommend that the search committee (working with the consultant or the person who charged the committee) develop and then sign a statement of ethics. That does not address the specifics discussed above, but it does help make the process transparent and the ethical guidelines clear. Sometimes, the process is almost as important as the result.

  • hawki72

    wchristie wrote ” … there is little likelihood that an institution will feel compelled to abide by them. …”

    dpn33 wrote ” …Apparently, that’s too much to ask from many institutions. ..”

    What is it with “the institution?”  If I invite someone to interview for a position in my school or department — and I would like to impress them — then it is in my enlightened self-interest to attend to these details.  In the candidate’s eyes, I am the institution. 

    It wouldn’t occur to me to knock on the President’s office door and ask for someone from “the institution” to pick up a candidate at the airport. 

    The drive from and to the airport provides exceptionally valuable one-on-one time to orient the candidate and make them feel welcome coming in and to debrief them on the way back.

    My contribution the the helpful hints list: — Less whining, more thinking

  • jranelli

    all good and useful comments…on one extreme there are institutions that get it right…when the task was mine, all candidates were thanked for their interest, kept informed as the process included or eliminated them and informed of the chosen candidate as soon as he or she accepted an offer…and, of course, all planes, trains, etc., were met and schedules overseen thoroughly and tended by staff and faculty, (ok, there was some dumb stuff as when deans took pains to assure female candidates that the area was replete with shopping options), and on the other extreme there are the slackers, as noted in the comments and, worse, those who perpetrate  pre-cooked searches or engage in unspoken -isms, (my favorite is the invitation of a woman to interview at a selective eastern liberal arts college, where i was visiting, who, because of the subject of her thesis was assumed to be african-american and, not having been met her on arrival, elicited an audible hum when she presented her self and…etc.)

  • michener1

     i would add don’t post a job if it is set aside for someone already. it’s a waste of everyone’s time and  money and reflects poorly on the program. 

  • walkingtree

    Because nobody gave me a ride, I thought it was a usual practice to neglect candidates. I am glad that your department abides by the code of conduct and that you are outraged at others who don’t. Hopefully I will get a job in your kind of department.

  • 11152886

     Let’s begin earlier in the search process:

    1. Were the applicants who did not make the cut for the position notified at all?  2. Did the committee respond to all candidate applications in timely fashion at the close of the search as to when they would be notified as to the finalists?3. When top 3-5 candidates were selected and notified, were the remaining candidates notified at the same time, so they might get on with their lives? As for the first rule, I wrote a letter of recommendation for a highly qualified candidate participating in a national search. The applicant was NEVER notified about search progress or results by the search committee, the department, or the  institution. After two months, the candidate finally called the department and was told the position had been filled, and that the candidate had not been in the running. This is disgraceful search committee behavior, and rude to a legitimate candidate.

  • rare_bird

    Not that my search experiences have been terribly fun or even rewarding, but I don’t think candidates are entirely blameless either.  Early the other day I heard from a friend who knew that I was a finalist in a search, and she had found out via a 3rd party’s Facebook post that someone else was taking the job for which I had been in the running.  Meanwhile, as a finalist, I still had had no formal notification from the search committee.  This was at least the THIRD time that I had found out about job search results via Facebook connection or report w/o hearing from the search committee first.  

    Here is my search reform/etiquette wishlist, some of which has probably already been said:

    1) The way academic search processes get dragged out over the course of an entire year is indefensible, inhumane, and unethical.  Searches in other sectors or industries seem to take far less time and are way more flexible.  Even for my present prep school job (which is, frankly, tiding me over), it took less than 6 weeks from interview invitation to job offer, and that includes flying cross-country for a teaching demo plus meeting w/ a host of committees, deans, etc. over 2+ days, comparable enough to a university search.

    2) Search committees need to be more diligent about notifying candidates promptly when they are no longer in the running and when a search has resolved.

    3) If your department is running a fake search (w/ a certain candidate already preferred for whatever reason), do everyone a great mercy and keep your candidate pool as local as possible.  For instance, don’t invite a Boston candidate to interview in SoCal if there’s really no chance of an alternate outcome.  Preparing + traveling take time, meeting so many new people all at once is exhausting, and jumping through the hoops in good faith only makes the eventual rejection worse.

    4) Search committees need to remind successful candidates to conduct themselves professionally and exercise restraint and discretion in going public w/ their own good news– especially online– until the committee has made the rounds w/ its bad news to those who will not get the offer.  This may be a generational behavior, but it’s only going to get worse.  Everyone needs to remember how small certain disciplines and subfields can be, and it’s inevitable that, as a candidate for a job, you may well be competing either against someone you know or someone who might be at most 3 degrees of separation away.  I would guess that the more senior scholars serving on search committees have different online habits vs. younger/newer scholars, and everyone needs to have the possibility of unintended disclosure on the radar, as well as a commitment to a better, fairer protocol.

  • rare_bird

     Not that my search experiences have been terribly fun or even rewarding, but I don’t think candidates are entirely blameless either.  Early the other day I heard from a friend who knew that I was a finalist in a search, and she had found out via a 3rd party’s Facebook post that someone else was taking the job for which I had been in the running.  Meanwhile, as a finalist, I still had had no formal notification from the search committee.  This was at least the THIRD time that I had found out about job search results via Facebook connection or report w/o hearing from the search committee first.  

    Here is my search reform/etiquette wishlist, some of which has probably already been said:

    1) The way academic search processes get dragged out over the course of an entire year is indefensible, inhumane, and unethical.  Searches in other sectors or industries seem to take far less time and are way more flexible.  Even for my present prep school job (which is, frankly, tiding me over), it took less than 6 weeks from interview invitation to job offer, and that includes flying cross-country for a teaching demo plus meeting w/ a host of committees, deans, etc. over 2+ days, comparable enough to a university search.

    2) Search committees need to be more diligent about notifying candidates promptly when they are no longer in the running and when a search has resolved.

    3) If your department is running a fake search (w/ a certain candidate already preferred for whatever reason), do everyone a great mercy and keep your candidate pool as local as possible.  For instance, don’t invite a Boston candidate to interview in SoCal if there’s really no chance of an alternate outcome.  Preparing + traveling take time, meeting so many new people all at once is exhausting, and jumping through the hoops in good faith only makes the eventual rejection worse.

    4) Search committees need to remind successful candidates to conduct themselves professionally and exercise restraint and discretion in going public w/ their own good news– especially online– until the committee has made the rounds w/ its bad news to those who will not get the offer.  This may be a generational behavior, but it’s only going to get worse.  Everyone needs to remember how small certain disciplines and subfields can be, and it’s inevitable that, as a candidate for a job, you may well be competing either against someone you know or someone who might be at most 3 degrees of separation away.  I would guess that the more senior scholars serving on search committees have different online habits vs. younger/newer scholars, and everyone needs to have the possibility of unintended disclosure on the radar, as well as a commitment to a better, fairer protocol.Not that my search experiences have been terribly fun or even rewarding, but I don’t think candidates are entirely blameless either.  Early the other day I heard from a friend who knew that I was a finalist in a search, and she had found out via a 3rd party’s Facebook post that someone else was taking the job for which I had been in the running.  Meanwhile, as a finalist, I still had had no formal notification from the search committee.  This was at least the THIRD time that I had found out about job search results via Facebook connection or report w/o hearing from the search committee first.  Here is my search reform/etiquette wishlist, some of which has probably already been said:1) The way academic search processes get dragged out over the course of an entire year is indefensible, inhumane, and unethical.  Searches in other sectors or industries seem to take far less time and are way more flexible.  Even for my present prep school job (which is, frankly, tiding me over), it took less than 6 weeks from interview invitation to job offer, and that includes flying cross-country for a teaching demo plus meeting w/ a host of committees, deans, etc. over 2+ days, comparable enough to a university search.2) Search committees need to be more diligent about notifying candidates promptly when they are no longer in the running and when a search has resolved.3) If your department is running a fake search (w/ a certain candidate already preferred for whatever reason), do everyone a great mercy and keep your candidate pool as local as possible.  For instance, don’t invite a Boston candidate to interview in SoCal if there’s really no chance of an alternate outcome.  Preparing + traveling take time, meeting so many new people all at once is exhausting, and jumping through the hoops in good faith only makes the eventual rejection worse.4) Search committees need to remind successful candidates to conduct themselves professionally and exercise restraint and discretion in going public w/ their own good news– especially online– until the committee has made the rounds w/ its bad news to those who will not get the offer.  This may be a generational behavior, but it’s only going to get worse.  Everyone needs to remember how small certain disciplines and subfields can be, and it’s inevitable that, as a candidate for a job, you may well be competing either against someone you know or someone who might be at most 3 degrees of separation away.  I would guess that the more senior scholars serving on search committees have different online habits vs. younger/newer scholars, and everyone needs to have the possibility of unintended disclosure on the radar, as well as a commitment to a better, fairer protocol.

  • rare_bird

    Not that my search experiences have been terribly fun or even rewarding, but I don’t think candidates are entirely blameless either.  Early the other day I heard from a friend who knew that I was a finalist in a search, and she had found out via a 3rd party’s Facebook post that someone else was taking the job for which I had been in the running.  Meanwhile, as a finalist, I still had had no formal notification from the search committee.  This was at least the THIRD time that I had found out about job search results via Facebook connection or report w/o hearing from the search committee first.  

    Here is my search reform/etiquette wishlist, some of which has probably already been said:

    1) The way academic search processes get dragged out over the course of an entire year is indefensible, inhumane, and unethical.  Searches in other sectors or industries seem to take far less time and are way more flexible.  Even for my present prep school job (which is, frankly, tiding me over), it took less than 6 weeks from interview invitation to job offer, and that includes flying cross-country for a teaching demo plus meeting w/ a host of committees, deans, etc. over 2+ days, comparable enough to a university search.

    2) Search committees need to be more diligent about notifying candidates promptly when they are no longer in the running and when a search has resolved.

    3) If your department is running a fake search (w/ a certain candidate already preferred for whatever reason), do everyone a great mercy and keep your candidate pool as local as possible.  For instance, don’t invite a Boston candidate to interview in SoCal if there’s really no chance of an alternate outcome.  Preparing + traveling take time, meeting so many new people all at once is exhausting, and jumping through the hoops in good faith only makes the eventual rejection worse.

    4) Search committees need to remind successful candidates to conduct themselves professionally and exercise restraint and discretion in going public w/ their own good news– especially online– until the committee has made the rounds w/ its bad news to those who will not get the offer.  This may be a generational behavior, but it’s only going to get worse.  Everyone needs to remember how small certain disciplines and subfields can be, and it’s inevitable that, as a candidate for a job, you may well be competing either against someone you know or someone who might be at most 3 degrees of separation away.  I would guess that the more senior scholars serving on search committees have different online habits vs. younger/newer scholars, and everyone needs to have the possibility of unintended disclosure on the radar, as well as a commitment to a better, fairer protocol.

  • rrserbs

    For telephone interviews there are a few more questions to consider including. Did the search committee let the candidate know in advance who would be doing the interview? Did the committee provide bios at least several days in advance of the conversation? Did the committee introduce themselves at the beginning of the conversation? Did the candidate have the opportunity to ask questions of the search committee? Did the search committee read the application information provided by the candidate prior to the meeting, and do the questions asked of the candidate reflect that the committee has done its homework?  

  • mikey

     Did we avoid using ratemyprofessor.com as a resource in hiring decisions?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=531776982 Jolene Miller

    Last time I was involved with hiring, I wasn’t allowed to let anyone know they were not being considered (even ones that clearly weren’t qualified) until the person who was offered the job accepted it and passed the drug test. Only then I could notify the other applicants. Institutional policy. Unkind if you ask me. If applicants contacted me, all I could say is that the search is on-going.

  • cobleskill

    It’s also good to orient the candidates to the community and the cost of living there.   

  • copesan

    All of these suggestions relate to candidates actually invited for interviews and campus visits.  How about treating applicants with respect when they apply by acknowledging the receipt of the application, and by sending out rejection letters in a timely fashion?

  • blue_state_academic

     Great idea.  When we bring finalists in for on-campus interviews, we always schedule them to spend an hour with a local realtor who will drive them around the community and give them some idea of the housing stock, information about schools (if the candidate desires), etc.

  • kirin85

    I understand that travel may not be underwritten.  However, if a candidate is willing to travel for an interview at his/her expense, then at least there should be some sort of “perk” provided, such as a meal.  Also, search chairs should keep their personal feelings toward administrators to themselves, along with in-depth personal questions.  I had a search chair inquire deeply about my significant other, and what is my significant other’s feelings toward me relocating to XYZ, when for the past four years I have been in ZYX, and ZYX it is a farther distance from where significant other is compared to XYZ.

    Hospitality should also be taken into consideration.  The offering of a beverage during the job talk, is always nice. Also, prior to the on-campus or even the phone interview, provide the names of the search committee. Sometimes it is difficult to hear/comprehend the names on the speaker phones that are used during the phone interview.

    Communication that one is no longer in the running should be prompt, as well as receipt of the application packet.

  • utchron9

     ”Did we invite only those who were serious contenders for the role?”   But…but…but…then how could we circumvent legal requirements when we want to just hire the bloke we are friends with?  

  • MChag12

    Maybe one answer is an on-going list of the most inconsiderate employers.  Sort of like a censure from the AAUP. It is true that the way that candidates are treated has truly gotten out of hand.  I have, at interviews that were going badly because of the way the search committee was acting, made it very clear what I thought:  I figured there wasn’t much to lose anyway, and the thought of having to work with these people was frightening.  I know that not many have had that freedom, but when you do, it should be used.  Academia is worse than any industry I can think of except perhaps show-business.  It truly is disgusting.  

  • chicoleo

    “Did we make the candidate feel valued and interesting?” Really?
    While I agree with many of the suggestions, that one seems over the top. This is a job interview – we have a job, the candidate wants it or so one would hope. The candidate should prove himself or her self to be of value and interesting. That’s what the hiring process is about in large part.

  • shar9019

     I once had an employer send reference forms via e-mail to the student workers that the candidate supervised (I was the supervisor of the candidate). The student staff came to me because they were so uncomfortable about being approached in that manner. And, the candidate had not provided that information (two of the student staff were serving as references, but not all of them) so it seems some resourcefulness was definitely employed by the hiring institution. I called the Search Chair and spoke with him to let him know I respected the need for information, however, this kind of inquiry violated our institution’s HR policies.

  • bghansel

    Is Powerpoint OK?
    * We’ve all learned to read in bullet points
    * No need for complex sentences
    * Useful as subtitles when presenting in foreign languages
    * Shared cultural thought process

  • acorn

    Watch Stephen Colbert. I love the way he uses PowerPoint.

  • facdevelop

    i recommend looking into Michael Alley’s (Penn State) research on the Assertion Evidence model for developing slides, rather than letting Powerpoint think for you.   See:
    Rethinking the Design of Presentation Slides: The Assertion-Evidence Structure, http://writing.engr.psu.edu/slides.html
    and
    Teaching the Assertion-Evidence Design of Presentation Slides, writing.engr.psu.edu/teaching_slide_design.html

  • robert_wyatt

    But also see David Byrne’s work with powerpoint.

    “I realized I could create pieces that were moving, despite the limitations of the “medium”

  • 22238751

    As someone said in the Washington Post Style Invitational years ago, “Power corrupts.  PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.”

  • fly_on_the_wall

    This is the silliest thing, as bjhernandez makes clear. If you’re boring with powerpoint, you’re boring to begin with. And, you’re also lazy because it takes a little effort to learn not just the mechanics of powerpoint and similar programs, but also the method of lecturing from visuals. Lazy = boring. But Poehm also completely ignorant. Some fields of study need powerpoint. Any discipline based on visuals has been transformed because of the enormous advantages of powerpoint over slides. It’s doubtful anyone as obtuse as Poehm has any awareness, much less interest, in art history, but I imagine biology, geography, chemistry and other sciences might register on his puny brain. Banning powerpoint will kick a big hole in the sharing of knowledge among scientists and training new ones in Switzerland, and that will kick a hole in their economy. Onward Luddites!

  • thegirlz

    PowerPoint is a tool. It can be used well and it can be misused. Failures are a reflection on the creators of the PowerPoint presentations, not on the tool itself.

  • dank48

    Power Point is very helpful in certain classroom situations, as for example when a deaf student is giving what would otherwise be an oral presentation. For that, it’s not only useful but actually accommodating in the sense of making education more accessible. 

    Aside from that specific situation, I can’t think of any real purpose it serves, aside from disguising information by presenting it in the least comprehensible fashion, which seems to be the default. And of course helping the audience catch up on sleep.

    Like some other Microshaft products, it’s become an end in itself. People think that by mastering its ins and outs they’ve accomplished something. I don’t know what the cost in productivity is, aside from Columbia, but I bet it’s considerable. Has anyone tracked the rise of Microshaft compared to U.S. productivity over the same period? How many person-hours have been spent trying to make sense of those ghastly Excel graphs, for instance?

  • bitchuation

    Was never a fan of PP

  • czander

    I have seen faculty who read their lecture from PPT slides.
    Dim the lights and we all take a nap

  • 11134078

    Years ago when overhead transparencies were the high tech medium of choice, I had a colleague who prepared them in advance only when he needed graphics that could not readily be made on the fly. Otherwise, he wrote and drew on transparencies as we went along. He was convinced—and I think he was absolutely right—that it was a great help if students watched him think (of course to the limited but nevertheless significant extent that writing as he went made that possible). As a Windows hater, I use Keynote but only to prepare slides for my wife’s art history lectures. The information on the slides consists of name of painter, name of work, date of work, and medium. All else is in the talk. In other words, we use Keynote to display images, not verbal knowledge.

  • academica

    Powerpoint is just a tool.  In the wrong hands, it can be fatal.  Used well, it can add visuals, video, and excitement to a monologue.

    The real problem is dull, plodding presentation style!

  • cwinton

    While we are at it, we should ban chalk boards and flip charts as well … this is just silliness.  It’s rather obvious that it’s how a medium is used, not the medium itself.  I’ve sat through presentations that used non electronic media that were just as boring and incomprehensible as a bad PP presentation (ever seen someone trying to add notes to an overhead slide using a pencil, or tearing pages from a flip chart to stick them on a wall, or writing on a chalk board with one hand while erasing with the other?).

  • rescomp

    Boring lectures are not the fault of a technology, but rather the misuse of the technology. It’s very chic right now to bang on PowerPoint, but it is a misplaced critique. Blame the lecturers who create boring presentations or simply read their slides to their audiences. Complainers are blaming the technology when the accountability truly belongs with those lecturers who are either too inept or too lazy to create interesting presentations. I might also note that relying on student critiques is tenuous at best. They need to take some responsibility for their own education as well. Complaining about a faculty member using PowerPoint is misdirected — they should be complaining about the boring faculty member or, god forbid, actually take some action to improve their listening and educational skills.

  • mirlee

    As someone who has online and in-house students for the same course, the use of PowerPoint is essential. I appreciated the sharing of the PSU site. I think one of the keys to a successful presentation is not to read directly from the displayed slide, but to use them to enhance what is being said and to generate thoughtful questions. For me, it’s also a place where I can be creative in presenting the material to make for an interesting class.

  • rohneas

    The problem isn’t PowerPoint.  The problem is people that don’t know how to present, so they hide behind slides full of wordy bullets and crappy clip-art.  Those same people tend to treat PowerPoint as a panacea, without investigating other options – for example, math is best suited for overhead projectors where a teacher can demonstrate how to solve a complex problem.

    The problem is exacerbated by college professors that don’t grade people based on their presentation skills.  It does not matter what field you go into, you have to be able to present your work to be able to move up in an organization.

  • electronicmuse

    I am consistently 87% correct 13% of the time, and assert that this piece is intended as humor.

    However, if you really want to read a cogent assessment of the evils of PowerPoint, find visual presentation guru Edward Tufte’s brilliant analysis done at the behest of NASA following one of the shuttle disasters. (This is not humor). Tufte concludes that PowerPoint is good for one thing, and one thing only: pictorial slide shows with no verbiage . . . to which I happen to agree. It’s a useful slide projector that is easier to set up.

  • gstr6519

    Thank you for a great laugh and a great reminder that ANY teaching technology can be turned to boring use!

  • electronicmuse

    Anybody who advances the idea of the “neutrality” of “tools” should consider that garden tools can wear holes in your body. Some are ergonomically designed-some are not.

    Tools are never neutral, as is implied above. They always carry their own set of conditions and conditioning factors that subtly enhance the probabilities of a similar set of outcomes.

    PowerPoint is a tool that has shaped “teaching” as well as NASA shuttle outcomes-both to their detriment, in my opinion (and in Edward Tufte’s as well).

    A lot of people may like the “don’t blame the messenger” idea advanced above, but it is fundamentally flawed in this case. Tools are not neutral . . .

  • sciencegrad

    I’ve had a couple professors try a lecture or two without PP and they usually turn out better.  A great professor will use PP to project images or anything that would take too long to write out manually.  He or she will show his or her thought process by writing the rest of the lecture on a board, a process which I found absolutely necessary in order to follow complex mathematics in science and engineering.

  • ejn435

    Flip charts?! Sacrebleu!!

  • 11272784

    It’s like any medium, including the classroom: it’s possible to be a great presenter or a lousy one in ANY medium.  Misuse of Powerpoint is no more egregious than the thousands of hours of lousy video that instructors have inflicted upon students since the advent of TV in the 50′s.

  • bigtwin

    I’ve seen so many bad powerpoint presentations in my life it isn’t even funny.  I’ve concluded that it should not be used for the following reasons:

    -it makes it unnecessary for people to learn how to develop coherent and compelling arguments orally

    -it puts distance between the content of one’s lecture from the person actually delivering it, making it all so easy to forget

    -it keeps shy people from developing speaking skills – they can just hide in a dark corner reading from notes

    -it undermines the need for lectures.  You might as well be reading a textbook in bullet form

    -it is a disservice to students – they deserve more for their tuition dollars

  • sabbatical

    The world is exactly as big as our minds, and we can bring the whole world to students through Power Point.  Visuals, links — it’s an organizing technique to make the world come into the classroom smoothly.

    So let’s ban it because some people use it for nothing more than headings and bullets.  And in particular, let’s go back to the good old days of academic conferences, when presenters sat at a table, reading their papers zzzzzzzzzzzzz . . .

  • colsan77

    A must see …Youtube  authors@google: Garr Reynolds comment on ppt.

  • salestax

    A flip chart is a blackboard without chalk. 

  • ellenhunt

    See Edward Tufte on PowerPoint.
    “Powerpoint is the lowest bandwidth communication method ever devised by man.”

    My own observation is that PowerPoint allows the easy substitution of slides for actual mastery of material. That is what makes it boring. PowerPoint makes it easy for anyone to make a presentation on, for instance, relativity theory or partial differential equations and appear knowledgeable.

    I remember the reaction of a woman who headed the marketing department of a company I worked at 20 years ago. I got the highest rating for a talk at a conference that anyone had ever received in the history of the conference. So, she wanted my secret. I told her I followed Tufte’s rules.

    A. Structure the talk as a socratic conversation. This requires really understanding the material
    B. Let the talk be shaped by the audience’s responses to questions and make sure to engage them first thing.
    C. Don’t use PowerPoint.
    D. Hand out a 2 page condensed outline at the start so people can follow along. Check off the points as you hit them in the talk.

    Her response? 
    “Oh, we can’t do that. Our department is mostly English and Drama majors. We don’t actually know any of this stuff! I need something that will allow a brain-dead chimpanzee to convince our customers.”

    Seriously. That is almost word for word.

  • ellenhunt

    Aside from that, the suggestion that Mr. Poehm has for the cure is rubbish. The man has no $#!%$#! clue what he is talking about. He shows himself to be, while not an imbecile, rather lacking in wit or intelligence.

    Edward Tufte does know what he is talking about.
    http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/

  • paulkurucz

    Boring information delivery lectures and people who don’t know how to craft a story that engages an audience are the challenge, not PowerPoint. 

    Presentation software is just a tool that can be used to either encourage engagement and stimulate thinking or used to restate text information that dulls the mind and senses.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=5702945 Katie Mangan Crafton

     interesting….

  • 5768

    Same here. Especially young faculty who don’t know the course material and read it as it materializes slide by slide in front of themselves and their students.

  • 22122536

    Interesting that we blame the medium.

  • bawde

    I’ve seen one Prezi presentation so far.  I don’t know if they’re all like this, but the slides went spinning in and out.  Made me nauseous. 

    We may have learned to read in bullets but I haven’t yet learned to write in them.  Sigh.

  • raza_khan

    I see the power of PowerPoint similar to a gun.  It is the person who “clicks” the slides that is more of a relevance than the slides themselves.  The question is about how interactive is the person to the audience in delivering his / her lecture rather than the technological medium that is used to deliver the lecture.

    Raza
    ___________________________
    Raza Khan, Ph.D.
    Dr.Raza.Khan@gmail.com

  • darr3455

    I think this whole conversation just goes to show that the PowerPoint tool (like the message board, Blog, Tweet, or whatever) is just as effective or ineffective as its user.  The tool is not neutral, not at all.  Bad PP presentations (whether made on the MS software, Keynote, Prezi, or otherwise) can be as bad as bad can get.  I find this occurs most often in presentations offered by presenters who rely on the tool to communicate the point and the power.  Good presenters know that the point can only be enhanced (a little bit) by the tool.  The power comes first from the point itself, second from the creativity, charisma, passion, etc. of the presenter, and from the software last.  If you want proof of this, just check out any of the TED talks (http://www.ted.com/talks). 

  • johnburningham

    Lets all go back to Harvard Graphics and overhead transparencies.

  • http://twitter.com/ghess1000 George Hess

    This is Keynote, not Powerpoint, but it is undeniably entertaining and demonstrates a way to use the tool effectively. It is by no means the only way. Just because PP encourages an outline model doesn’t mean we have to use it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrpajcAgR1E

  • pwherry

    This is not a new complaint. See “Absolute PowerPoint: Can a software package edit our thoughts?” in the New Yorker, May 28, 2001.(Yes, 10 years ago.) Interesting explanation of the development of ppt, and this, in the last paragraph: “According to [Clifford] Nass, PowerPoint empowers the provider of simple content . . . but it risks squeezing out the provider of process–that is to say, the rhetorician, the storyteller, the poet, the person whose thoughts cannot be arranged in the shape of an AutoContent slide.”

  • electronicmuse

    Yes, Edward Tufte is Da Man when it comes to visual presentation, and likely to ways of organizing thinking. I have all his publications and attended one of his excellent day-long seminars. He is about “not lying” as much as he is about “presentation of data.” He fairly bristles integrity!

    However, given your “D” above, my sorties before audiences literally too many to count have taught me to never hand an audience something to read-they will be distracted from your actual presentation by any summary of your presentation. Afterwards . . . 

    I find the old “three” idea of education is useful: (1) tell them what you’re going to tell them; (2) tell them; (3) tell them what you’ve told them.

    Uh, maybe Mr. “Poehm” is a play on “poem,” and this author is just kidding us . . .

  • electronicmuse

    Yes, and this is what I mean by my previous comment that no “tool” is “neutral.”

    The “tendencies” of PP militate against precisely the kinds of “process” you mention. The argument that one can operate “contra” a tool’s tendencies is also specious. Why do this? Get a more appropriate tool, or modus operandi.

  • tee_bee

    Indeed, because Byrne uses the medium the way Tufte uses PP: As a controller for a projector, not as an iron cage.

  • tee_bee

    OK, I’ll buy that. But I would argue that no more than 1 in 100 PP presentations are even remotely helpful. I’ve seen great presentations–and the software ain’t Powerpoint. But, yes, when everything looks like a nail…

  • rjchilds

    Check out either Slide:ology or Resonate by Nancy Duarte for ideas on improving presentations.

  • richardtaborgreene

    The NICE thing about power point is if and when all your competitors use it.  THEN it is well worth having THEM preserve use of it, so you can more consistently and easily and by larger margins defeat them in getting attention, impact, action, funding, and the like. 

    I made a very successful career in business, NGO-land, and academia via NEVER using powerpoint and NEVER making male-ish presentations.   INSTEAD I used huge 40 to 128 points per page A3 pages of………what is the word……………………PAPER.   So for 30 or 40 minutes I explained what was on that page—-WELL not really—I never explained what was carefully written already, RATHER I asked the audience to read the page and guided by their questions I PRESENTED the links between the ideas on the page and audience lives and concerns.  We talked about those LINKAGES not about my page or my ideas.  All that MY-ness gets on my nerves, and bores me.  I am rather sick of my-ness-es.   Especially my own.   

    Gerstner when he saved IBM forbid powerpoint—we are going to talk to each other not present near or past each other–he famously explained.   In business in particular (academics are so poor at presenting there is not effort needed to surpass them all) I found that males are wimps, hiding behind their slides so that even when the slides put six J&J vice presidents to sleep, the 7th male-ish speaker in a row, puts up his own slides, continuing the VP sleep session.  Not a one (of course except yours truly) had the guts to hold up his slides and dump them all noisily on the floor, proclaiming—OBVIOUSLY these put you guys to sleep—-let’s talk!    TALK is so courage-requiring that most male-ish entities today do not have the courage for it—perhaps something in the water reducing testesterone levels.   

    The coolest research on this, was some guy in Germany who found the mental protocol involved in audience reactings to powerpoint—-I have in my lap a copy of the slide so I do not need to listen, I will read the handouts at home—but when I get home I file them away, and never find them again, till in my next housemove, my spouse insists on NOT moving un-used junk and the hand-outs end up in the trash. Powerpoint by this protocol guarantees that no one listens or reads or thinks or uses. FURTHERMORE we read about 22 times faster than people can orally present the same ideas—so the stupid 7 ideas of 5 words each or 5 idea of 7 words each type slide norms—mean we GET all points in 4 seconds and spend the next 90 seconds (per slide) BBBBBBOOOOOORRRRRREEEEEEDDDDDDDDD. So ooo oooo I put 128 points on one slide and talk for 30 minutes—to read THAT requires a LOT more time.

  • richardtaborgreene

    very glad you wrote this and I got a chance to read it—confirms a lot of best practice experiences.    BUSINESS is ALL ABOUT one moron presenting to another richer moron.  Moron money exchange.   That is why Harvard is good at it.  

  • richardtaborgreene

    I lied, these days I present 256 points per A3 page and most recently in Beijing 420 points on one A3 page—it took 2 days for them to read that one page and 16  hours for me to handle their questions about various of its 420 point.  I just decided to be nutty and see how many points I could with great order, articulation, naming, and fractal layering I could sqeeze onto a page at 6 or 7 point font.   A student challenged me once and I have a PDF you can request of of my 4000 favorite books, authors and titles under 450 categories (my personal interests), in 1.7 point font ALL one ONE A3 page.   After much practice I can now, without glasses, read the titles and authors at 1.7 font.   I am pretty sure this is all completely stupid and useless–THAT is why I like it and invest time in it.   Must be a monkey play brain module at work.  

  • mbelvadi

    A useful word to support this concept is “affordance”, from the field of cognitive ergonomics and the work of Donald Norman (not specific to PowerPoint). Things we use, whether physical or virtual, have affordances that constrain and encourage particular uses. It’s possible to force a tool to be useful in a way it wasn’t designed to be, but that doesn’t make the tool neutral.

  • mbelvadi

    I would add pretty much anything by Steve Jobs. His new product presentations, using Apple software similar to PP, are anything but boring, even given that they’re sales pitches.  The fact that his topic is interesting is only part of it – his use of the presentation software is unlike what most faculty do in classrooms but many could learn from it.

  • vlghess

    I taught chemistry for many years. I can’t draw–and I certainly can’t draw animations.
    PP replaced blackboard and then overheads (and snippets of those large laser disks or videotape) for certain tasks:
    1. providing a place to put an overview of class that was easy to make available to students. (Yes, there are advantages, especially to some students, of actually writing it down using their own hand muscles–but have you ever taken a good look at student notes??? Even 25 years ago?)
    2. organizing the links (oh, the joy of going directly to the web) to animations and really good images, as well as the visual content I could copy and paste (from the web or documents I created)
    3. adding humor
    4. giving the organized backbones of problem solving.
    Once I learned the techniques, I could then integrate it into an overall strategy that used, say, the slide to state the problem, turned off the PP and went to the black board for the open ended “OK, folks, how should I start?” (I.e. the messy group problem solving) or to small groups to have them go thru it or…, then back to the slide for a clean review.
    I.e. it’s a handy tool that replaced several others, making my presentations feel less scattered than they had since the days when ALL I had was black board or overhead and the neat visuals weren’t available (and even if I could draw, I couldn’t animate dynamic concepts!)
    So…let’s use the tools for what they’re meant for and not blame them when users treat them as the “new black board.”

  • drnels

    I haven’t used PowerPoint in years, not since Prezi came along.  And my students say they have much more fun putting Prezis together than PowerPoints.

  • JoniCarrell

    I like the my way or the highway attitude. It rocks…

  • fizmath

    When PowerPoint is outlawed then only outlaws will have PowerPoints.

  • dpmccain

    One of the best purchases I made was a clicker.  I can walk around the room, augment my PowerPoint presentation with anecdotes, (and keeping my students “engaged”).  I have been victim to some developed Power Point presentations by the folks who publish our custom textbooks ( I am too chicken to mention the name).  I ran a deck once, and my students were furious with the lack of quality and creativity. 

    Power Point is designed to support a presenter, not replace him/her.  On another post, Resonate and Slideology were mentioned, and these books are incredible.  I would also add Presentation Zen and the Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. 

    Too many believe that developing PowerPoint means jamming alot of information on slides and running the deck with checkerboard transitions…positively stroke inducing.  For a lesson of about 1 hour, it takes me about 4-5 hours to develop a  20 slide deck. 

    While I like Prezi,  I am having difficulty with the coordination of Prezi so it does not overpower the academic content.  It is fun, though.  I have just purchased Guy Kawasaki’s new book  Enchanted.  I wonder if Prezi and Enchanted would create a perfect mesh of personal magic and technological wizardry.  I will test it on my students…they love being my lab rats.  Bless them.

  • dpmccain

    After meeting with my students and presenting the lesson, I upload the Power Point to the class web site so students may review.  However, I caution those who demonstrate “creative attendance” that the deck does not replace the class, because I pepper the presention with discussion, and questions from discussion appear on quizzes.

    I also do not supply a hand out, because if the students want to print it for review, they may do that on their own time. 

  • arminius

    The first horrific lesson learned in my class is that I actually expect my students to read.  The second lesson is that they are asked questions.  The third lesson is that they are expected to think for themselves and not to act like parrots.  The fourth is that I do not allow anyone to do a PP presentation.  The fifth is that if they get with this program — they discover a process that will eventually enable them to refine their thinking.

    I know that the above is viewed, by most of my younger colleagues, as the notions of a troglodyte. IMO most of them are incapable of reasoning their way out of an aphoria called non-thinking.

  • joyc1770

    Clever PowerPoint design, crafted by human experts, is not the point.  Neither is the pointless rambling those of us on the receiving end of such presentations endure. 

    As listeners, we are expected to accept even the most nonsensical message because it is organized into bullet point formation; this inauthentic cohesion must account for some measure of value, shouldn’t it?   

    The PowerPoint ”ban” rallies against conformity of expectations and experiences by suggesting the opposite side of the coin, which turns out, advocates for precisely the same philosophy as the world controlled by PowerPoint.  

    Both solve the lack of creativity and imagination conundrum with the same old solution: Conformity of presentation expectations and experiences, one all PowerPoint; the other everything but. 

    How about something altogether different?   Peaceful coexistence?  Power-Point if you must, but break free when you can–and should.  Because a mind must exercise its ability to break free of mental molds. 

    One small step each of us could do would be stop expecting PowerPoint at every presentation and stop delivering Powerpoint at every presentation.   

    Encourage non-conformity of presentation styles, modes and delivery as long as the message is carefully considered and delivered.   

    In the long run, acceptance and tolerance will promote creativity and imagination more than any cookie-cutter, one-size fits all formula for presentations.           

  • electronicmuse

    Absolutely-particularly re using a tool outside its “affordance.”

    And thank you for introducing me to the work of Donald Norman, I’ll look into it. My primary experience is with music software/instruments, and I’ve witnessed-during some 25 years of teaching, and 25 years in the instrument biz, the homogeneity of results that accrue due to use of (any) particular tool. I hope I can put some formal/statistical meat on the bones of my heuristic about this. People are taught that tools are “neutral,” possibly primarily because there are sociological, ecological, political liabilities inherent in any system (read “tool”), and there is always somebody around willing to mislead . . .

  • electronicmuse

    No, it really is the medium that is the message, as Marshall McLuhan indicated decades ago.

    For instance, witness the “Evening News.” The synchrony is incredible, re the lead story, the order of stories, when advertisements occur, etc. TV itself has a form, and the “content” is mostly illusory. Formulaic ideas, e.g. detective shows are developed to fit the medium, and the staccato style and abbreviated forms that “fit” TV are not to be seen in the theater, to give one example . . . the very fact that TV is “sponsored” determines the rhythms and forms it transmits . . . 

  • electronicmuse

    Bad is bad, regardless of media-that is true. However, there are different kinds of “bad,” depending entirely upon the medium in use, and I think this is the central idea the author puts forth (I still think the whole piece is a joke!)

    One example: you can waste time playing pinball, but unlike “multitasking,” pinball hasn’t become indicted as a medium that will lay waste to your actual brain functions. In the same way that all time-wasters don’t create the same outcome(s), use of different media have different outcomes. It isn’t as simple as to say that a boring prof will be boring in any medium.

  • 11272784

    Al Powell is out of the office until Thursday but will check email. If you have an eID problem or can’t login to RamCT, please contact the ACNS Help Desk, as they must help with that problem. Phone: 970-491-7276 and leave a message, or email help@colostate.edu . The ACNS web page is located at: http://www.acns.colostate.edu/.

  • electronicmuse

    In a public lecture, I supply no handout, as I don’t expect the public to retain information that will lead to becoming experts on the topic at hand. My motive is solely to arouse interest in this case.

    In class I hand out “class notes” that summarize the proceedings. These are always so dense in information that one could not possibly “just review them” and get what the lecture and Socratic Dialogue and class inculcate. However, I do think that students shouldn’t have to copy the contents of the prof’s notebook into their notebooks-we have photocopying for that. Also, the written form requires them to show up, or they fall into what I refer to as “Handout Hell,” a place where I become very “confused” about whether I can even FIND a handout if you missed that class!

    At any rate, don’t put stuff into peoples’ hands while you’re speaking to them. They’re probably already totally de-focusing themselves with electronic devices already . . . I do think of each class as a “performance” designed to make them want to pay attention . . . .

  • electronicmuse

    Yes, TED talkers have-in the main-learned the importance of communicating with human beings.

  • sthen

    It’s hard for me to take you seriously when you feel the need to intentionally misspell the name of the company that directly supplies PowerPoint. Would it surprise you then, that PowerPoint isn’t the only electronic presentation software that is misused? Or doesn’t that seem to matter to you?

    You find it serves no purpose? I’m sorry you feel that way, but for those of us who certainly aren’t artists, the use of a tool that has integrated shapes and animations that allow instructors to visually accent a point during a lecture is invaluable. I cannot use the blackboard in certain ways that PowerPoint allows me to do.

    Having said that, using PowerPoint for an entire lecture? Blasphemy! But utilizing its power to show a chart rather than spout of its data from a piece of paper, or attempt to render said chart on a flip chart? Time saving, and more productive, at least to me.

  • sthen

    I’m sorry, but the way Dick Hardt presents his Identity 2.0 keynote is by far one of the best ways to utilize PowerPoint.
    http://www.identity20.com/media/OSCON2005/

  • sthen

    Ah, the publisher’s accompaniments to the textbooks are horrendous!

  • eesc2009

    Here are some more thoughts on Death to PowerPoint and a nod to Prezi as an alternative:
    http://blogs.oregonstate.edu/instructionaldesign/2010/05/25/nonlinear-presentations-alternatives-to-“death-by-powerpoint

  • dpmccain

    I must correct my mention of Guy Kawasaki’s new book.  The title is Enchantment, not Enchanted…Isn’t that a Disney film?  Apologies. 

  • http://whytheology.wordpress.com/ Trey Medley

    I’m certainly not a defender of Rep. Ryan (quite frankly I abhor Randian Objectivism), but it is interesting that this was a question of the fact he spent $700 on wine at the same restaurant Ms. Feinberg was dining (and she apparently knew enough about expensive wine to identify it). My question is, where is the line drawn? Clearly purchasing a Buaggatti Veyron on a whim is too far (the car costs more than double most people’s homes), but is dining out at a nice restaurant taboo? What about movies? What about McDonalds, particular when there are people around the world (scratch that, people in the US) who could scarcely afford such a luxury. Are we relegated to all eat Ramen Noodles until the population is fed, clothed, housed, and has access to adequate medical care? Where do we draw this line? It seems somewhat arbitrary. If Ryan hadn’t been proposing massive budget cuts to social programs, would he then be allowed his personal $700 wine tab? What if he personally gave away half his income? Would he be allowed a $350 wine tab then? Again, I can’t stand Ryan’s politics, and some of his statements lead to question him as a person (but as I don’t know him, I must stop myself). While I would never drop $700 on wine with friends (at least I don’t think I would, I’ve never been financially secure to consider such a thing), I don’t know if I necesarily begrudge him that.

  • hanks

    I agree. Let the waiters and waitresses crawl around on the floor and and pick up loose change that falls out of politicians pockets. “Are there not prisons for the poor?”

  • pontificator

    I think the most important thing to be gleened from this tempest in a teapot or wine bottle, is the fact that the Chairman of the House Finance Committee initially got the arithmetic wrong on his credit card receipt. Of course, he UNDERESTIMATED the total!

  • meshabob

    So how come an associate prof. at a public university is living so high on the hog, hmmm?

    Because she was celebrating her birthday? Everybody knows that for Ryan, this was just another night out on the town. For that matter, an $80 bottle of wine at a fancy restaurant is considered mid-range. This is not so much, btw, about spending $350 on a bottle of wine. It is much more about people like Ryan attacking SS, Medicare and Medicaid. If the Republicans were not so openly Marie Antoinette in their politics, people like the prof would not be so angry and willing to confront them.

  • panthernation

    Funny that is the salary we pay Rand is considered “his own,” but the money a student pays to a university for tuition is seemingly not considered their own. IOKIYAR

  • panthernation

    Apparently, you didn’t understand Feinberg’s argument. Thanks!

  • lucapacioli

    Cwinton, would another example be Al Gore flying around in private jets to lectures to hector us that we should save fuel?   Or perhaps Rep. Rangel, lover of the poor, while chairing the committee that writes the nation’s tax laws, omits reporting rental income from his Dominican Republic villa?    

    In general, society is not in much danger when politicians are spending their own money.  It’s when they spend the public’s money that abuse, waste and corruption can take place on a grand scale.

  • jnwoye

    Ms Feinberg should be proud for having the courage to confront the congressman. The congressman’s action with the hedge fund cliques epitomizes hypocritical behavior of our politicians and how their relationship with business cliques tends to undermine our democracy.
    Really, spending $350 for a couple of hours with two people while aggressively working to devastate the lives of our most venerable old and young by attempting to cut them out from the little support they need to exist as humans while providing tax cuts for the billionaires and millionaire; that’s outrageous. The congressman should be ashamed of himself while Ms. Feinberg should be applauded for her courage to speak the truth to the powerful. We certainly need more people like Ms. Feinberg if we are serious about attacking our national problems that are mostly driven by greed.
     

  • lewandowski

    I do not sense here that reviewers see Congressman Ryan is simply a pontificator.  This is not a liberal or conservative issue but another politican who: “Do not do as I do, but do as I say!”  This fiscal congressman does not even know how much he was paid for his wine until questioned???  How about that 1st class seat flight ticket back to his district so he does not have to mix with his common constiuants. 
    I am sorry here but we have here another pompus politican who wants to make his mark and more personal millions on the government dole. He whines and walks out of meetings like a child instead of being an adult who must learn to compromise for the good of his district and the country. 
    We do not need anymore zealots in congress who are either liberal or conservative but americans who are open-minded to change for the greater good not for a hedge-fund manager who is trying to buy his vote. 

  • jimislew

    I mean no disrespect toward tenured professors here (in fact I have great respect for those who have nabbed an increasingly rare post, I’m a bit jealous), or politicians for that matter, but I love the dichotomy in this situation. A politician, whose survival depends upon public opinion is verbally attacked by a tenured professor whose own survival is utterly protected by the vicissitudes of the same.

  • wmartin46

    And what argument did I not understand? Thanks!

  • tgroleau

    “There is something tragic about powerful legislators consuming $700 of any quite discretionary product”

    Is it equally tragic that the Whitehouse served $400 bottles of wine at a state dinner in January? 

  • kozirice

    It is difficult to think of a hedge-fund manager as not a lobbyist, in fact if not in name.  And I agree that Mr Ryan probably had no thought of paying for wine and/or dinner until called out by Professor Feinberg.  I have no problem with Mr Ryan spending his own money anyway he wishes, including his public salary; however, I think his personal priorities do not mesh well with his priorities for the rest of us.

  • skolpan

    Far more troubling than the wine Ryan drinks is the company that Ryan keeps. Dinner with a “prominent hedge fund manager” is code (at least to me) for the caste of Ryan’s politics, and who supports his positions. If Ryan wants to blow a lot of money on wine, so be it, but the political context – a society for the wealthy and to hell with the poor and struggling – cannot be ignored. 

  • murdo004

    Did they?  How do you know? 

  • tgroleau

    This site says the wine was $250 a bottle: http://www.drvino.com/2011/01/19/state-dinner-menu-hu-jintao-quilceda-creek/  (note: this also shows a $50 wine on the menu)

    This site shows the wine at $400 a bottle: http://www.raederswine.com/sku056956.html

  • mxb22

    I’m on Ryan’s side here, but the argument that the production of luxury provides opportunity for the poor was probably made by Louis XVI too.

  • badger74

    Ridiculous. Waiting tables has probably kept more college students, single moms and future actors fed and housed than any other job in the US. The hours are flexible, the money very good per hour at the right place, and co-workers can be a blast.  When any work is beneath you,  you have the problem.

  • midtownlabgeek

    She “showed [her] courage” when “the manager and a waiter came over and Feinberg decided she had said her piece and it was time to leave”.  She “showed courage” when she crowed to a blog about her “confrontation” – selecting one that would applaud her, of course.
    “Courage” suggests that she expected to face disapproval (or worse) from those whose opinions matter to her, or those who are in a position to do her harm.  From the reactions here, she certainly doesn’t face the mass disapproval of the academy, and any potential backlash on her professional career will cause an outcry over “academic freedom”.

  • maw57

    You really don’t care how Ryan is spending his money? Burning it is really OK when he’s considering cutting support for the needy? The more general context for this is that most politicians at the national level these days *must* be wealthy in order to finance out-of-control campaign spending, a necessity created by the Supreme Court with the Citizens United decision. And of course that decision was made possible by George Bush, whose two terms permitted him to appoint so many rightist judges. (I have to give it to Bush: that was my biggest fear after his “re-election,” the power he would have over the court for years to come, and he managed to pack the court with some effective ideologues.) So yes, we have rich politicians (on the right and left) who are increasingly out of touch with the middle class, let along with those less fortunate, downing expensive bottles of wine without really grasping the effect of their policies on those who can’t live a similar lifestyle, even though Republican ideology persuades many income-strapped citizens that someday perhaps they will.

  • cwm4c

    All this story shows is that Representative Ryan and Professor Feinberg are both members of that society for the wealthy you mention.  There is nothing wrong with that, but there is no denying it either. 

  • racmonti

    Three-Buck Chuck works for me!

    Let them drink (cheap) beer!

  • racmonti

    She was out to dinner with her husband, for her birthday. Presumably, he paid. And he knew what the bill would be.

  • racmonti

    Agree. Once in a while I’ll splurge for a $25 bottle of Coppola.

  • racmonti

    She probably read the menu to “know” how much the wine was. We all do it!

  • _perplexed_

    How do we know it was his “own” money and not some plutocrat wannabee’s payoff?

  • badger74

    So big Democrats from FDR to Kennedy to Clinton never associated with their rich friends( or should I say Mark Rich in one case).  Please stay in touch with reality. Every politician has rich friends.  That is how they got elected. They might be Venture Capitalists or Hollywood Royalty but they all know their way around a nice restaurant and a wine list.

  • okieinexile

    This sort of finger-pointing at conspicuous consumption is a dangerous thing.  There are those who tar Ryan and Feinberg with the same brush and line them up against the same wall.

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