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A College Education With Multiple Purposes

October 18, 2011, 10:41 pm

There seem to be a few unspoken rules among the ruling class in higher ed. Among them: Don’t say a purpose of a college education is to get a job, and don’t refer to students or employers as consumers of a college education.

I broke both rules in a recent post about how the American higher-ed system is in love with itself, and as a result, doesn’t believe that it needs to undergo some fundamental changes. And boy did I hear from readers. The post generated more than 90 comments and a response on The Huffington Post by Brian Rosenberg, president of Macalester College.

Obviously, there’s no shortage of opinions on the subject. So I want to return to the debate, particularly given some new ammunition supplied over the past week by the governor of Florida and a coalition of unemployed law-school graduates.

We often talk about the goal of college as learning a specific skill or growing intellectually. Both aims are not mutually exclusive, of course, although by framing it as an either/or question we have allowed two opposing camps to emerge. On one side is higher ed, which believes it’s educating future citizens by helping them grow personally and intellectually. On the other side are employers who have jobs they can’t fill because they’re unable to find skilled workers.

Politicians seem to be taking the side of the employers. Witness Gov. Rick Scott of Florida, who last week said his state shouldn’t put more money into degrees that are unlikely to produce more jobs, such as anthropology.

What many of those in higher ed fail to realize is that as college has become more expensive, parents and students increasingly view a bachelor’s degree as a transaction. For many, education for education’s sake no longer cuts it. That doesn’t mean students shouldn’t major in French literature or philosophy, or anthropology, but institutions need to do better at connecting such academic programs to lifetime employment prospects. Otherwise, it’s going to be almost impossible to get students and parents to pay $200,000 for a four-year undergraduate degree.

At the same time, employers and politicians need to learn that if colleges provide training only for jobs that need to be filled now, those workers will probably be useless in about two years, given the rapid pace of change in most industries.

Colleges need to reframe the question when asking employers what they need. Instead of asking about the jobs they need to fill tomorrow, colleges should ask employers to describe the valuable skills of their best-performing and longest-serving employees. It’s likely the answer will be critical thinking, writing, team work, and problem solving—all attributes of a classic liberal-arts education.

Another reason that higher ed might be reluctant to tie an undergraduate education to job prospects is that it’s on the defensive right now over job-placement rates in law schools, as The Chronicle’s Katherine Mangan reported this week. As the article points out, college officials are nervous that the consumer-protection pressures facing law schools could spill over to other professional schools. It’s surprising to me that universities don’t face more scrutiny of their graduate programs in general, which reel in prospective Ph.D. students every year while providing very little data on the job prospects of their graduates.

So if a bachelor’s degree is sold as a ticket to a specific job much as the J.D. is in law schools, students and parents might begin to ask a lot more questions about the placement data supplied by colleges. The federal government might tie student-aid funds to the employment gains of students, as it has with many for-profit vocational programs. And some in higher ed might be forced to reconsider their disdain for the consumer moniker and to treat their academic programs as products that sometimes need to be refreshed, or even retired, rather than just assume student demand will always be there.

In his thoughtful response to my original post, Rosenberg, the Macalester College president, recounts the story of Steve Jobs’s brief stint at Reed College and how he didn’t realize until much later in life how the study of calligraphy and music had any practical application to his success as a business leader and visionary. Often left unsaid in the retelling of that famous story, however, is that Jobs received part of that education by simply hanging around the Reed campus after he had dropped out. I’m sure Reed College would have preferred him to have stayed as a paying customer.

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  • jabberwocky12

    German also distinguishes between an informal “you” (“du”) and a formal “you” (“Sie”, written with an upper-case “S”).  The differences are replicated in the Nominative, Accusative and Dative case.  An extra complication is that the form of the verb that follows is also affected.

    I’m sure most second-language students of German would love for one of those forms to disappear.  Although it is a great language, its grammar is really, really complex, so much so that even Mark Twain, on getting to grips with it, wrote his (rather unfair) essay entitled “The awful German language.”

  • keithsawyer

    My sources tell a different story: “thou” most likely dropped out of English because of a backlash against the Quakers. George Fox, the church’s founder, insisted that all Quakers use a type of speech that he called Plain Speech, and this required saying “thee” to everyone.  Thus, as a matter of religious principle, Quakers refused to use the formal “you” with anyone in a superior position, as was expected at the time. 
    The English settled on the formal pronoun because of a popular backlash against the Quakers; they were perceived to be extreme radicals, and most of the English just thought they sounded rude.  It got to the point where a non-Quaker couldn’t use the informal pronoun without people thinking he might be a Quaker, too.  Gradually, the informal pronouns died out in England, and remained in use only among Quakers. 

    Sources:
    Sawyer (2001), Creating Conversations. Hampton Press.
    Pages 265-266 of Brown, R., & Gilman, A. (1960). The pronouns of power and solidarity. In T. A. Sebeok (Ed.), Style in language (pp. 253-276). Cambridge: MIT Press. 
    Pages 105-106 of Knowles, G. (1997). A cultural history of the English language. New York: St. Martin’s Press.

    • denadavis

      That’s fascinating. I am an American Quaker and of course it would be ridiculously affected to use thee and thou today, even among Friends.  But…I recently returned from francophone Switzerland, and I understand that French-speaking Quakers adhere to the basic principle, addressing everyone as “tu.”  Problem is, without a bonnet, and with my iffy French, I just sound dumb or rude when I do that!

  • unusedusername

    A few languages have two words for “we”.  One word includes the person being spoken to, and another excludes the person being spoken to.  I think this would be a useful distinction.

  • davidcomposer

    Here in Oklahoma we have solved the formal/informal problem with “y’all.”  Y’all is informal singular. Oklahoman being a very precise language, there are different forms for the plural.  While “y’all” is sometimes used in talking to a group of people, if you are specifically addressing two people, you would say “both y’all;” if there are three, then it’s “all three y’all.”  If there are more than three, the proper form is “all y’all.”  We hardly ever use the formal “you,” since we want all y’all to feel like part of the family.  When I returned to my native Oklahoma after many years in other states and countries, I noticed that it had become much more culturally diverse. But when I went to a Chinese restaurant, the waiter (whose accent indicated he was a fairly recent arrival) came up to the table and said “now what would y’all like to drink.”

  • mollycooke

    I grew up outside Philadelphia and knew several Quaker families who used thou/thee/thine within the family, especially to children.  “You” was used outside the family so George Fox’s political point had been lost. 

    I remember thinking that the informal thou sounded pretty. 

    • jffoster

      One note– if the Friends you knew used the form _thou_, it was a back-formation, a ressurected form from literary and KJV / RSV English that had become absent from Quaker English long before.  The general Quaker usage had _thee_ for both nominative and objective, i.e. subjects and all objects.  So if thee heard Quakers using it, they acquired it from literary sources and not from ordinary spoken Quakerese. 

  • v8573254

     I just love this because it displays the fusty, wonky turn of mind which many of us, well – me, have.
    Anyone else ever found that doing the notes and bib take almost as long as writing the article/conference paper/article?  For the bib, I pile my books or copies on the floor in the proper order and one by one, pick up, enter – with maybe a quick thumb in Chicago or MLA or the required form – plunk book on left side on floor.  
    Leave books there until you need the space for the next stack.

  • http://www.arrantpedantry.com Jonathon Owen

    As a copy editor for a small academic publisher, I have to say, “Hear, hear!” I spend far too much of my time cleaning up disorganized end notes—which frequently involves looking things up in Google Books or at the library to fill in missing information— when I could be spending that time polishing the text.

  • http://twitter.com/realmagicdj DJ Weatherford

    I agree that these programs have their limitations, but I think you’re right about a couple of things: one is that success in formatting may mean getting to students while they are young, and the other is that no responsible writer should expect the software to take care of everything for them. (If the software is citing works incorrectly in the text or listing them wrong in the bibliography, either the entry or the citation model n EndNote may be wrong; both of those can be tweaked.)

    I have used EndNote in my own research/writing, and it has saved me many hours (and prevented many headaches) that I would have otherwise lost without it—and that doesn’t touch on its value for storing, searching, and compiling my own notes on the documents in my library. But that doesn’t mean I think I can trust it unerringly to get all of the formatting right; it just means I start about a lightyear ahead of where I would have been without it.

    On the other hand, I work in a discipline that has been “tweaking” its “standard” style for some years now, and the current iteration is too big a mess for EndNote to handle; the style itself is hugely inconsistent. That irritates me as much as inconsistent formatting appears (rightly) to irritate you.

    I’ll defend the programs, but I won’t defend irresponsible use of them.

  • http://tommangan.net/ Tom Mangan

    I do substantive edits for a magazine publisher whose contributors hand in work with end notes (and bullet & numbered lists) all dutifully formatted in Microsoft Word; for publication the first thing I do is remove all their handiwork. So it goes.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Allen-Hartman/1710709717 Allen Hartman

    Responding as a parent, and not a writer, one problem is that there are too many styles and, in secondary education, there is no consensus among teachers at any given school, as to the preferred style.  My children have been required to use Turabian, APA, MLA, CSE for Biology,and one History teacher required something called APSA (he provided a sheet for guidance). — Sorry, no CMOS — did not encounter that until they went to College.   Additionally, some teachers had no requirements whatsoever.  Without a consensual format, it is no wonder that bibliographies and end notes are a mess. 

    • music_librarian

      As the librarians at my institution teach our students, there are reasons why different disciplines use different citation formats.  For example, those disciplines that favor currency of information, such as the sciences, tend to use formats that put the date closer to the front.  Humanities disciplines are more concerned with demonstrating the trail of scholarly communication and the way that one writer influences another, so information that enables the location of the item becomes more prominent.

      Another thing that we librarians teach, right from the first semester, is that citation software is only a facilitator, and not the final authority.  It’s ultimately up to the author of the paper, whether a freshman or a seasoned scholar, to check all machine-generated citations against an actual style manual.

      • adam3smith

        I’ve never found that explanation very satisfactory. I’m fine with the existence of one Chicago, one Harvard, and one Vancouver style for different purposes
        But different disciplinary use doesn’t explain why in the social sciences the American Anthropological Association, the American Sociological Association, the American Economic Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Political Science Association each have their own Harvard style, each containing pretty much the same information but each formatted in different ways.
        Why the Chicago Manual feels the need to publish a Harvard style in addition to its more popular note-based style (a least MLA has gotten rid of its note-based style). Why every medical publisher feels the need to tweak the existing Vancouver/NLM guidelines by including an extra space here, making the volume number bold, requiring full instead of abbreviated page-ranges etc. It’s absolute insanity.
        I code styles for use with Zotero (and Mendeley/Papers etc. – it’s an open standard). The fact that we currently have/need more than 400 different styles and continue to expand that list is just crazy – and the blame for that rests squarely with the editors and publishers, not with authors.

  • blendedlibrarian

    Citation mess? More like citation madness. It seems impossible that a society as technologically advanced as our own cannot somehow figure out how to identify one set of citation rules that would apply universally, and then commit to a single standard. Having dozens upon dozens of formats unnecessarily complicates things, and we can see the impact it is having. Everyone would rather let the software deal with it. Or might this put all the individuals who maintain and update the different standards out of jobs? 

    With respect to the personal bibliographic management software, generating citations in multiple formats is just one function. Even if you never or rarely have to generate the citations, there are tremendous advantages to maintaining your own personal database of all the resources you want to follow and retrieve when needed – and share as well. The other big advantage is the ability to export your citations directly from the library’s research databases into your personal database. Far from being messy, this functionality allows researchers to save time and add some order to mad, mad research world.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Carol-Saller/100002198727755 Carol Saller

      I believe EndNotes actually offers more than 5,000 bibliographic styles to choose from.

    • 22113683

      The reason so many citation/bibliographical forms have evolved is that different disciplines have different needs and different ways of using sources.  The information to be provided and referenced in a Chemistry paper, for example, is quite different from what’s needed in a Musicology paper.  I teach CMS because in my field, most of the best publishers and journals use it; APA is an aberration (for us); MLA is maddening.  I don’t think it’s possible to create a “one size fits all” style manual, although I agree that we could take some steps toward consistency in matters such as hyphenation, citing online sources, and . . .?

  • drmork

    Don’t get me started on the multiple printings of APA that has caused confusion for many writers.

  • 12106544

    I’ve published a modest three books, and for each one I created the bibliography and notes manually as I went along. On the one hand it’s a point of pride, while on the other I want what ends up being copyedited to be as close to perfect as possible. The books we write are a form of immortality; we ought to care personally about every aspect of them.

    Rainier Spencer
    UNLV

  • manitoga

    I’ve written many papers using RefWorks (free from my campus).  I’ve also been experimenting with Zotero, and (gasp!) I’ve also used Microsoft Word’s citation tool.  As a former student and current researcher I think that there is a place for these citation managers – that is they have a place as a citation database.  There are quite a few times where I needed a bib listing for a paper that I wrote a few years back because some resource was there that was useful to me NOW, but I could not remember what it was (but the title in the bib would surely jog my memory!)

    I also used to teach RefWorks to undergrads and grad students alike, and I taught these applications mostly as citation/research databases: get all the info, and make sure they are entered correctly from the get go and you will be fine. I did show them the citation tools that reworks had for MS Word, but I always told them to double check the output because it could be wrong!  Computers are imperfect because they are programmed by humans who are imperfect. Just double check your work :-)

  • usaret

    I use NoodleTools (noodlebib.com) for MLA, APA, CMS all without much difficulty. It has saved me a great deal of time. I show my first year English composition students how to use it as well–we even have races in class when working on this topic to see who can generate the correct citation format in MLA using NoodleTools, MS Word, our course handbook (Little Brown Brief) and MLA handbook. Slowest is handbook, fastest (and usually most accurate for students because it prompts them) is NoodleTools.

    We discuss citation as Rainer Spencer does–point of pride, helps establish authority, displays writer’s ethos. If it’s not presented as gotcha stuff, students respond–it’s like a puzzle or game. But it is a pain. I am teaching a class designed for nursing students as well as non-nursing folks, so am teaching MLA and APA in same course. The sound you hear when you cock your head towards St Louis is that of numerous heads exploding…

  • http://www.facebook.com/garymklein Gary M Klein

         I have seen faculty pull their hair out
    after getting a rejection notice from one journal, but given a
    recommendation
    to resubmit it to a couple of different publications.  The
    original research centered on Biochemistry,
    which used one citation format.  The
    recommendation that they resubmit it to a biology or chemistry journal
    forced
    them to rewrite the entire paper in 2 different versions, because the
    in-text
    citation formats were so different.
         My colleagues at my former employer
    researched this type of problem in the 1980′s. 
    On the campus of that state university with
    about 20,000
    students, the librarians identified OVER 100 different style manuals
    used by
    faculty when submitting articles for publication.
         In some cases, a British society of XYZ
    had a totally different way of footnoting research than the American
    society of
    XYZ.
         I have also seen over a dozen style guides
    for academic journals that do not have a name for their particular style.  And to make matters worse, often times, they
    did not publish it as a stand alone handbook!
         I have also seen large numbers of journals
    that refer to “the” style manual published by Chicago,
    Chicago University,
    University
    of Chicago, or
    Turabian’s style manual, but
    seldom do they provide the correct name for any of those style manuals!  I have also seen journals that claimed to use
    one brand name of formatting, but showed examples from a different,
    unnamed
    format!
         Many of the published style manuals have
    evolved over the years, to incorporate methods for citing email, web
    pages,
    data files, etc, but few of the ones that are crafted on the fly
    (sometimes
    included just once a year in the back pages of a journal) ever grow
    with the
    times to incorporate electronic resources into their stylizations.
         With that in mind, here are 2 relevant
    citations (prepared in my own personal format du jour) for your viewing
    &
    citation pleasure:
    #1
    of 2:
    TITLE:   Student problems with documentation.
    AUTHOR:  Freimer, Gloria R.;  Perry,
    Margaret M.
    JOURNAL: Journal
    of Academic Librarianship
    ISSN:    0099-1333.
    VOLUME:  11.
    DATE.    Jan 1986.
    PAGES:   350-354.
    DESCRIP:
    Bibliographic citations.
            
    Themes and reports — Preparation.
             Authorship — Handbooks, manuals, etc.
    ABSTRACT:
             Interviews with faculty, a survey of
    20 students, and examination of style manuals revealed that students
    are
    confused by inconsistencies in and multiplicity of styles when
    confronted with
    writing and documenting a research paper. 
    Librarians are urged to teach various citation formats and
    work for
    adoption of standardization.
     
    #2
    of 2:
    TITLE:   Students and rules of style for
    reference
    citations.
    AUTHOR:  Terbille, Charles I.
    JOURNAL: Libri.
    ISSN:    0024-2667.
    VOLUME:  40.
    DATE:    Sep 1990.
    PAGES:   242-254.
    DESCRIP:
    Standardization of bibliographic records.

         Personally, I hope that more professors
    will understand the amount of angst that students experience while tackling citation format for their term papers. 
    Even if students are not procrastinating, it is difficult to
    figure out
    how something ought to be described in a footnote.
          Most faculty at my former employer relied
    on departmental secretaries to figure it out, but they also did not
    know that
    there were so many different brands & persnickety types of citation
    formats.  Other than librarians, most
    people only know the name of a handful of citation formats, and they
    have no
    idea that they are not readily translatable from APA to MLA to Turabian.
          Let alone, which version of APA!

    • carolsaller

      Mr. Klein, your post has gone straight to my heart! I’m going to email it to the MS Editing Department at Chicago. We don’t often hear about the writing process of individual authors, and it’s instructive to hear in such detail of the confusion of choices they face. Until a solution presents itself, I’ll think of you and be more patient when editing notes and bibliographies.

  • http://twitter.com/realmagicdj DJ Weatherford

    @facebook-27502564:disqus You’re right; students (and faculty) really are confused by the abundance of differences in styles from one journal to another, but that business of moving from one style to another is one more argument in favor of the electromagic formatters: if I write an article for a publication in my technical communications world but they suggest I try my engineering world, a touch of a button makes all of the major changes in formatting both the citations and the bibliography. Yeah, I’ll probably have to do some editing before I send the document to either journal, but the lion’s share will be right.

    I’ve also designed my own modification of my student’s professional organization’s style, but that’s because the one they use has grown like Topsy and makes no sense; I’m not familiar with any other style that is such an unmitigated mess, but I suspect it’s not the only one in existence.

    @Carol Saller Yes, EndNote has a bazillion styles to choose from, but when I needed APA 6 when it was new, I found that the one on the EndNote site was wrong. I needed about 30 seconds to fix it, but it made me skeptical of all of the others. (And some experience has shown me that—at least up to a few months ago—not all of the available styles match the author guides for the journal they’re supposed to handle.)

    • carolsaller

      @DJ Weatherford, I don’t wonder! Chicago just changed its author-date citation style, and who knows when the software will catch up to it. We don’t make changes lightly, and we make them only at the time of a new edition, but even so…

      • adam3smith

        CSL as used in Zotero, Mendeley, and Papers has the up to date 16th edition author-date style.

  • markstoneman

    One major problem with reference software is that it is only as good as the consistency with which its user puts data into it. If data is inconsistently formatted and incomplete, the result will always be a mess. If authors are going to depend on this kind of thing, then they will have to occasionally spend time editing their databases, making sure that their data is complete and consistently formatted. That includes special forms for the unusual types of citations, like the archival ones, special reprints and whatnot.

    Another thing that leads to citation confusion when I’m editing: scholars assuming that everyone understands what the numbers and abbreviations for their archival citations mean.

  • dpmccain

    I “train” my students in Diana Hacker before introducing them to the citation tools.  Even though the sites have pop oups that warn, “you must know the correct capitalization” many believe that they just randomly keyboard information, and it will be correct.  By building the foundation through a lesson in class (using the LCD projector, several articles, and Hacker), student feel more confident when they begin to use the citation tools.  My favorite is still Easy Bib, even though APA is for pay. 

  • int1989

    It doesn’t help that the programs sometimes get the citation format disastrously wrong.  When I downloaded EndNote’s new styles for Chicago 16th A&B, I discovered that their 16th B style was garbled beyond belief.  I trust the software so little that for journal articles I still format my citations the old-fashioned way.  It’s easier (not to mention less frustrating) than laboriously proofreading the software’s citations and correcting its errors. 

  • mgt7478

    If I may speak on behalf of college students – I have used MLA and APA (I don’t like APA by the way!) and this semester I found out that the History department will require the use of Chicago Style for all History classes.  Anything that will help us make sure that we cite our sources correctly would be a big help.  And I also learned (the hard way!) that the MS Word citing tool is not really THAT good.  This may be something that needs to be taught in high school if a student is college bound – I got exposed to it my senior year, but it was the “just make sure that you cite your sources at the end of your paper” lecture.
     
    @ Gary, I really loved your comments about finding the correct citation method by subject. @chronicle-b73960cf24799e214724c6cda3041b44:disqus @chronicle-b73960cf24799e214724c6cda3041b44:disqus @chronicle-b73960cf24799e214724c6cda3041b44:disqus 

  • digiwonk

    I loves me a nice, clear, consistent set of notes and citations when I read a text. But preparing one is a different story.

    My problem is twofold: first, my own work is interdisciplinary, finding a home in film studies (Chicago), literary studies (MLA), sociology (APA), and theoretical media studies (Harvard). I simply cannot learn them all. And, as more than rarely happens, a piece I’m writing with one field in mind, winds up going somewhere else, and then allllllll the references have to change. My second problem is that I research the internet, and let me tell you, I have a lot of non-standard publications to cite, and it’s nowhere near clear how to do it.

    My solution is this: my PhD student research assistant. For every piece I write, my RA takes my parenthetical MLA-style citations, cross-references them against our big Zotero database, and creates properly formatted citations and reference lists according the style whims of whatever venue I ultimately aim to send it to. This takes an untold number of hours, an effort that doubles if the piece comes back as a poor fit, and needs to be sent out somewhere else.

    I try to remember that the point of citations and references is to allow others to follow up on our sources, and to verify our evidence/thinking/interpretation. So I don’t know why it all has to be so g-damned complicated. And if you figure that my RA makes $15K per year from my grant, it’s also very, very expensive.

  • http://www.facebook.com/fred.zimmerman1 Fred Zimmerman

    Wong, wrong, wrong. I write research papers for government customers and I cannot tell you how much time the citation software saves me.  And, frankly, as long as they can find the source from the citation, they are happy. One of the commenters below has a $15K research assistant who does nothing but format citations to perfectiion. Tweaking citations to exactly fit an arbitrary format is a colossal waste of money. Form over function.

    The right answer? Focus on improving the software.  But manual citation writing should be, and hopefully will be, a thing of the past.

  • alf11

    I want to say “yea!” and “duh” at the same time.  I teach in a liberal arts field, and there are nearly no jobs in that exact field in the “real” world.  So the debate is a little personal.  But, neither employers nor academics are probably much good at predicting what we need to train “for” in 10 years time.  I encourage my advisees to study what they love, no matter how impractical, but get a minor or second major in something which might make them of immediate interest to a company, like IT or accounting or computer programming or human resources, etc.  Few take the advice, though.  I think that this whole debate leaves out the fact that students actually choose these majors.  Those who think they are choosing practicality often are not, because they major in fields they don’t really like or know much about or don’t realize require graduate work for a meaningful career.

  • danquigs

    You write above that:

    “Colleges need to reframe the question when asking employers what they need. Instead of asking about the jobs they need to fill tomorrow, colleges should ask employers to describe the valuable skills of their best-performing and longest-serving employees.”

    Actually, the AACU has asked exactly those questions of employers for quite some time now.  And the results are pretty much what you yourself anticipate they will be.  Please see the summary chart of responses at:

    http://www.aacu.org/leap/documents/MoreEmphasis_2010.pdf

    • jselingo

      Yes, the AAC&U has been ahead on this front, but in a bad economy it’s worth a reminder since it seems that employers are more focused on their short-term needs rather than the long-term.

  • sibyl

    “What many of those in higher ed fail to realize is that as college has become more expensive, parents and students increasingly view a bachelor’s degree as a transaction.”

    Higher prices have certainly contributed to this mindshift but are hardly the only, or even the leading, factor.  The public sector has retreated from its Cold War-era mentality that supported higher education as a safety valve for the labor market, a key contributor in the competition with Communist superpowers, and a public good.  Businesses have encouraged this idea of college-as-private-good, because they benefit from it (much as the NFL and NBA benefit from the development of workers through NCAA football and basketball, for which they don’t have to pay).  Private foundations foster this mindset as well.

    Yes, college’s purpose should be both-and; yes, higher ed is slow to understand this mindshift.  But higher ed is, unfortunately, only one contributor to the social shift from education-as-public-good to education-as-private-good.

  • nybound

    At many of the best UG business schools (at least according to ‘the rankings’), students have to complete 1 or 2 years of ‘general studies’ (mostly liberal arts courses) before they enter the business school for 2 or 3 years. I have to admit, I like that model for B-schools.

    • tardigrade

      Why?  Why do you like infantilizing others by controlling many of their decisions?

      Do you not agree with the egalitarian and self-determination impulses of this nation?

  • http://www.facebook.com/valenciaandrew.browne Valencia Andrew Browne

    At the end of the day, any time spent in college is a business transaction. The school receives payment in exchange for you learning necessary skills to do what you want to do. We as educators and people in the education field should always encourage a student to do what he or she wants, be it Engineering, Art History, or whatever! It’s when we place more value on certain majors that our children begin to believe that their dream of being a museum curator is hogwash. How terrible.

    I live in Florida and what Governor Scott is doing is making many colleagues and others upset. In 10 years, we will all see how terrible these policies are. Everyone’s educational system is in disarray; these crazy ideas that everyone puts into place make it even worse.

  • mycantarella

    I am proud to say that I think that my alma mater Bryn Mawr in its new 360 courses actually engages the idea of a curriculum that is both practical (courses on education) but with an interdisciplinarity that embraces the arts, history, and other disciplines such that the relevance of all disciplines applied to the “real world” is clear. My particular view is that college is for learning broad skills using the disciplne that most engages a particular student and that graduate school is for teaching the particular skills needed by particular professions. That said, a college with disciplines that are more vocational can use the the same strategy as the long term skills can still be integrated using “intellectual” courses. The trick is to be transparent about the functionality of these seemingly irrelevant courses. Talking to a student in criminal justice recently i helped him to see why his history course would help him in research and problem solving for criminal justice. We can’t assume that these lines are clear to students seeking job security.
    Marcia Y. Cantarella PhD Author, I CAN Finish College: The Overcome Any Obstacle and Get Your Degree Guide.

  • glorenzo
  • jkisner

    To what extent should the employers’ p.o.v. inform this discussion?  Albeit a bit dated, 2009:  http://www.aacu.org/leap/documents/2009_EmployerSurvey.pdf

  • reisberg

    Well, there’s an important related issue here that isn’t addressed by simply weighing intellectual growth vs skill acquisition.  We might also consider our financial aid program where the post-graduate obligations are equal for engineers and anthropologists. A number of countries now ask graduates to repay their loans as a percentage of income. This provides a lot more latitude for people in a range of fields and would take some of the vocational pressure off people whose intellectual passions do not have immediately apparent application in the labor market. 

  • squacky

    I appreciate the call to get beyond the “either/or” debate, and the “both/and” resolution that Jeff Selingo offers is a familiar compromise: liberalize the content, vocationalize the aims. (CHE readers might enjoy an article by David Labaree on this point: History of Education Quarterly, vol46, no1.) Whether this settles the debate is an open question, however. While higher education folks might be able to “rethink” enough to intentionally embrace such an approach, it still requires people outside higher education (namely, policymakers and employers) to accept the notion that a degree with a liberal artsy label (even anthropology) might in fact be useful. Put differently, I think this debate has much less to do with curricular substance than it has to do with terminology that aligns (or not) with ideological vantage points.

    • dld310

      While higher education folks might be able to “rethink” enough to intentionally embrace such an approach, it still requires people outside higher education (namely, policymakers and employers) to accept the notion that a degree with a liberal artsy label (even anthropology) might in fact be useful.
      EXACTLY!  So many, if not most employers, can’t see beyond the name of the degree. Just because someone doesn’t have a degree in “Communications” doesn’t mean they can’t do the job. Employers/HR staff are lousy at spotting & hiring smart, trainable, hard-working & dedicated workers who have liberal arts degrees. Instead they only look for someone who has a “specialized” certificate or degree – but may not have anything else going for them. This “specialty” mentality is killing us..and belies the value of a college education.

  • johnbarnes

    The problem with the customer model isn’t that it’s not true economically (it has been since the 1930s at least).  It’s not that it is somehow degrading (unless you regard all work as degrading).  The problem with the customer model is that it steers students toward a model of buying W pounds of money plus X certification for  Y dollars, and then selling that for Z dollars on the market. It leaves out the part where the student, by absorbing, integrating, and mastering a variety of skills and information, becomes a person that someone would want to hire.  We don’t face the problem McDonalds has of getting enough hot hamburgers onto the counter fast enough and cheap enough so students won’t go elsewhere.  We face the problem of most health clubs and gyms: although they’re paying us and we try to make the experience pleasant, they are the ones doing all the work and that’s the only way they get the benefit.  I don’t mind administrators and politicians who want us to run a better health club, but many of them are demanding that people should be able to buy health and a good physique the same way they buy a hamburger or a crowbar, and that won’t work, whether we try to do it or not.

  • semccoy21

    Count me in under the why choose column. I began my college education with the idea of being an artist. In a not yet thought out process, I went through art to ecology, technology, humanities, business, education, and back to humanities. I am sure that each step in the process brought with it the universal skills of research, application, and reflection. In addition, my education plan (or lack of one) brought me a more universal appreciation of a world of knowledge that I may have missed had I remained an artist. I would not recommend this process for everyone (it is expensive) but I would do it again if I could.

  • asnyder0827

    I have to admit that as a liberal arts graduate, I am biased in this debate.  In my mind, you shouldn’t learn how to do a particular profession in college.  You should learn how to be articulate and hard-working.  How many resumes do I see that have bad grammar and poor writing skills?  This is what students should learn: how to write, do research, and make a public presentation.  Everything else can be learned on the job.

    • 3224243

      Unfortunately, graduates from all majors have bad grammar and poor writing skills, especially with the influx of foreign students.  I can’t tell you how many dissertations I’ve read (with grammar and spelling errors) that wouldn’t have passed muster in my elementary school.

    • tardigrade

      ” You should learn how to be articulate and hard-working.”

      What if you already know all or some of this?  Should you then repeat it just for the jollies of others?

  • danielporterfield

    An excellent piece. There are different types of colleges and universities, of course, and their various emphases make them more or less attractive to students on the continuum that runs from skills and immediate job readiness to longlasting intellectual formation. 

    I think, for example, that liberal arts colleges (I teach English and serve as President of Franklin & Marshall) need to do both — help students develop knowledge, modes of thought, intellectual skills, language skills, writing ability, and intellectual flexibility that will not just last but grow over a lifetime, and also empower students to compete for opportunities for work or graduate education right away, at graduation and in the first five years of professional development.  My own sense is that the great liberal arts colleges do indeed make and keep both commitments.

    But, there’s another dimension to the value of a college education that I think is worth inserting alongside the paradigm Jeff discusses so well here.  Some colleges and universities also focus on the development of the whole person — and thus provide educational and learning experiences related to but different from formally what’s on the job readiness — intellectual formation arc. 

    As a professor, I know that 18-22 year-olds also benefit from developing self-knowledge, emotional intelligence, the ability to seek and get help, crosscultural awareness, experiential learning, the chance to be a peer leader, spiritual growth, travel experiences, the ability to create living communities based on respect and consideration, an appreciation for the arts, and other forms of holistic growth — all of which are part of the longterm resource base of being a self-actualized, independent, and free adult who can experience joy, deal with difficulty, relate to others, and be a citizen.  (And this form of learning alongside of intellectual formation transcends specific training and prepares for longterm career success.)

    I suspect that such holistic learning and growth occurs best in settings where students are approached, known, and educated as individuals.  And this approach thrives when students can build and sustain longterm, authentic relationships with their mentors. 

    Of course, not everyone wants or values that kind of learning — but the students I’ve taught and mentored at Franklin & Marshall and Georgetown sure do.

  • alancontreras

    The question isn’t whether appropriate job training is to be provided to people who need it. The question is whether colleges are the entities that should be providing it, and if so, how should that be paid for.  In effect, we need to answer the question of what is college-level work for which students need to be awarded an academic credential.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=677328154 Alexandra Tin

    A colleague and I discussed this very subject today, but with Germany in
    mind. There’s no doubt that science and business degrees offer students
    the best ‘deal’. However, the chances that an interdisciplinary
    education, with a focus on the liberal arts for example, may offer
    better employment than a science degree alone are pretty high. The
    problem is that not all students wish to undertake this form of
    education. In which case, those students that see the value in that
    should be able to access interdisciplinary material if they wish so.
    Whereas for most institutions technological barriers stop students and
    faculties from developing this habit of sharing academic knowledge,
    there is a growing interest in this field. One just have to read this
    article to realise this. It’s with this in mind that our startup is
    working to improve academic collaboration and sharing. Faculty and
    students can continue their specific academic focus and at the same time
    take advantage of the knowledge made available by their peers in our
    website.

    Check out our work at: http://www.iversity.org

  • camarie

    It is not a degree that gets hired, it is a person. Are we teaching students both hard and soft skills?  Can they work with a team? Can they communicate with a diverse workforce? Are they willing to start at the bottom and put in the hard work and effort it takes to get a promotion or have we set students up with a sense of entitlement that they deserve a job just because they got a degree.  They also need experience and in any given field. Are our institutions working in partnership within the local and global community to provide internship or volunteer opportunities? These experiences can assist them with experiential learning outside the classroom and help them network so that they can then apply for work. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1116401412 Kathleen Gordon Hudson

    It’s even worse if the cats are law professors. Thank you for posting this! It accurately describes my life as a department administrator.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=30415226 Jeff Dodd

    I’m offended. You forgot vegan num nums and num nums for those with celiac disease.

  • cdngpdinamerica

    Num Nums==Grants/Funding

  • jeanineva6

    A colleague just asked whether I might be “Minerva Cheevy.” Well done, my doppelganger.

  • felicenudelman

    AASCU is doing very innovative work in this area. Check out the national initiative they have undertaken around Global Change, including a national curriculum at http://www.aascu.org/GlobalChallenges/

  • tardigrade

    Whenever I see this I feel like how a neuroscientist must feel when anyone misuses the term amygdala (or whatever).

    “social needs”

    Drip irrigation is not a “social need”.  It is a “survival need”.

    “Social” does not mean everything involving humans.  And it should really only be applied to things which are primarily for the organization and intercommunication of groups of people.

    • dwheelermd

      Dear Tardigrade: You make a fair point, and I’ve changed “social” to “societal.” I think the needs the students are trying to focus on are ones that affect broad groups of people in developing countries. –David L. Wheeler

  • dporpentine

    I don’t understand why the following obvious point is being made: parenthetical citations, bibliographies, all that jazz should just be replaced by hyperlinks embedded in the text. The vast majority of citations are actually taken from sources that are online, though there’s some bizarre pretense in many cases that people care about the paper version; virtually any online source can be searched by the word. Just add links that send people to the article in general or, in the case of, say, Google Books, the individual page. Then the person following the link can do a two-second word search.
    If people want to be nice they can just add a list of sources cited that
    goes something like Author Name. Year. Article or Book Title.
    Collection or Journal Title. DOI or URL.

    No page numbers. No place of publication or publisher name. No volume
    numbers, issue numbers and so forth. In only a small number of cases do
    people really need that more specific information–but those are in no small measure where most of the problems come from.
    This wouldn’t work for the handful of paper-only journals still out there. And it won’t work well for history or art history or, to a much lesser degree, literary studies. But most disciplines just need links. That an internet researcher has to waste $15,000 paying someone to fuss with citations shows just how hidebound an industry scholarly journal and book publishing really is.

  • echinoderms

    I am always thrilled to read of efforts to engage students
    in the ways described in this article. We need more efforts like these, rooted
    within academic disciplines. The interdisciplinary nature of these efforts is
    critical to their meaning-making, and yet, since few universities have
    governance and funding sea legs for the business process complexity of
    interdisciplinary endeavors, the extra work to start something is a significant
    barrier to entry.

    Challenges aside, what great ideas for lighting up students’
    creativity and sense of agency! When they collaborate and innovate in teams
    students also learn how to communicate and problem-solve the way they will
    beyond graduation, when they transition away from having their work judged and
    measured individually. Also, when students roll up their sleeves to explore
    real and concrete needs they can see how theory both fits and doesn’t fit the messy
    realities of application, and how both parts need each other.

    Hopefully the students also will gain much from shaping a
    concept into a sustainable prototype, particularly the challenges of getting
    the voice of the user into the design process. I hope the experience pushes
    students to perceive the interdependence of societal and social needs (e.g.,
    how design of water systems is tied to public health is tied to governance of
    public goods is tied to intergroup relations are tied to land rights are tied
    to wealth disparity is tied to desirability of terrain is tied back to design
    of water systems).

    Problem definition usefully goes both ways–an exercise in
    zooming in to the specific problem AND an exercise in zooming out to see the
    interdependence of that problem within its social, political, and economic systems.
    Perhaps add the question “what ripple effects might come from your
    solution?” I would encourage additional intentional ‘baking in’ (great
    phrase!) of reflection on the bigger picture of this interdependence. Perhaps a
    course could be designed to guide students toward integration of their ‘zoom
    in’ specific problem observations into their ‘zoom out’ understanding of how
    the world works and their world views and aspirations. Perhaps collaborate with
    a tenure-track faculty in Humanities to guide students to consider how
    privilege, resources, access, voice, and agency are interrelated.

    These are not peripheral issues to good design, nor to the
    development of students into innovative designers. Rather, their understanding
    of the social dimensions of the societal problems they tackle will make them
    better, more perceptive, more liberating and transformative innovators for
    humanity’s many pressing needs. A provocative quote that speaks to this need
    for students to develop self-awareness of the power dynamics of their problem-solving
    comes from the Aboriginal Activists Group of Queensland, 1970s: “If you
    have come here to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come
    because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.”

  • charlottefairchild

    I read the law decision! I went to grad school in New Orleans and never knew I could have made money with my 3 1/2 octave voice and hundreds of songs I know!!! Thanks! http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19791083477FSupp606_1996.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985

  • http://www.eduberry.com/eduberryher_overview/ College Automation Software

    these ERP systems have their origin on software that integrates
    information from different applications into one universal database.

  • susansingh

    I had never thought of such an adventure.  It makes sense to allow students to create a real hands-on approach to help solve problems on a global level.  As a nurse there must be tons of ideas to help make a difference on a global scale.

    Susan

  • Jamus

    Mason243 – what about the middle-Pennsylvanian “weuns?”

  • sahara

    So now we know you can cut and paste in Afrikaans…(yawn).
    And don’t speak for members of the Episcopal church, since you aren’t one! (“their Rite II…”).

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