• Tuesday, May 29, 2012

Previous

Next

Between You and I, I Didn’t Just Make a Mistake

February 19, 2012, 3:49 pm

I’ve gotten very familiar with the geography of my local grocery store. That’s because of the grammar mavens, with which my town is peculiarly well-stocked. There’s the lawyer who’s obsessed with the dummkopfs who use which instead of that, and another fellow—also a lawyer, come to think of it—who’s on a one-man crusade against singular they. When I glimpse either of these two on the borders of my peripheral vision, I like to be able to dash into the cereal aisle and go incognito behind a jumbo box of Shredded Wheat.

The other day, I was comparing the assorted bags of organic field greens when I saw another neighbor. I knew him only as a friendly sort, but after we exchanged pleasantries, he started in on people who say between you and I. There was no escape.

The complaint was not new to me, of course. In fact, more than a decade ago, when the BBC polled its listeners about their most annoying grammar mistakes, this one came in first. And this mistake, in its various forms—They invited my wife and I, for example—continues to rankle, at least if the people who gripe about it to me are any measure.

I can divide my reaction to between you and I into two periods: pre-Pinker and post-Pinker. The reference is to Steven Pinker, the Harvard psychologist, who in the 90s mounted a spirited and, to my mind, convincing defense of the usage. I first came upon it in his book The Language Instinct, but he also adumbrated it in a New Republic article which that he reprints on his Web site. He gets into the issue by noting William Safire’s criticism of Bill Clinton for asking voters to “give Al Gore and I a chance to bring America back” and then brings in the grammar mavens’ almost equally despised “Me and Jennifer are going to the mall.” He observes that although both of these are common, absolutely no one would think of saying Give I a chance or Me am going to the mall. Thus, “might it not be the mavens that misunderstand English grammar, not the speakers?”

He goes on:

The mavens’ case about case rests on one assumption: if an entire conjunction phrase has a grammatical  feature like subject case, every word inside that phrase has to have that grammatical feature, too. But that is  just false.

Jennifer is singular; you say Jennifer is, not Jennifer are. The pronoun She is singular; you say She is, not She are. But the conjunction She and Jennifer is not singular, it’s plural; you say She and Jennifer are, not She and Jennifer is. So a conjunction can have a different grammatical number from  the  pronouns inside it. Why, then, must it have the same grammatical case as the pronouns inside it? The answer is that it need not. A conjunction is just not grammatically equivalent to any of its parts. If John and Marsha met, it does not mean that John met and that Marsha met.  If voters give Clinton and Gore a chance, they are not giving Gore his own chance, added on to the chance they are giving Clinton; they are giving  the entire ticket a chance.  So just because Al Gore and I is an object that requires object case, it does not mean that I is an object that requires object  case.

I tried to explain all that to my salad aisle buddy, stressing, as I usually do, the unit-ness of you and I and Al Gore and I. If the action described by the verb was performed separately on the objects, it would be a different story: The candidate rang the doorbells of my neighbor and [of] me. He had an uncertain look in his eyes; I was on my way to convincing him.

But then I overreached, as usual.

“Think about The King and I,” I said. “You would never say, ‘I’m going to see The King and Me,’ would you? Al Gore and I is the same kind of unit.”

I had the familiar feeling of losing him. “That’s different,” he said.

“Yes, it’s different,” I countered. “But only a little different.”

But he was already on his way to the checkout.

 

This entry was posted in Grammar, Mistakes. Bookmark the permalink.

  • Print
  • Comment
  • http://profiles.google.com/fooodini Henry Breitrose

    Just between you and ….uh…just between us, that’s a very smart article Mr. Yagoda. Of course, in England you might think that the Ford Motor Company is singular, but the BBC will tell you that Ford are, not Ford is. Hooray for the various Englishes.

  • http://www.tweedediting.com Katie Van Heest

    Thanks for this fun thought problem. I appreciate what you
    and Pinker are doing here. It even makes a kind of sense. But to me the real
    story here is the divide between formal (e.g., academic) writing and casual
    communication, which would include Clinton’s plea as well as this blog comment
    I’m writing right now. Maybe Clinton was doing a kind of hypercorrection, maybe
    he deliberately erred to be folksy, or maybe “I” just sounded better in the
    moment. In any case, why argue for the grammatical correctness of it (in formal
    terms)? Except, of course, to get us all thinking, which is exactly what you’ve
    done!

    • Guest

      Or, just possibly, “Give Al Gore and I a chance” is standard formal Arkansas English.

      Level of formality does not negate the grammaticality (i.e., intelligibility to a native speaker of the language) of a synonymous statement at a different level of formality.  What does “grammaticality” MEAN if a common expression used routinely by native speakers of a language is declared “ungrammatical” depending on whether the speaker is among friends or on stage.  It don’t make no sense.  Either you know damned well what I mean when I say “it don’t make no sense” or you don’t.  If you really, truly think I MEAN to say “it does make sense” when I say quite clearly “it don’t make no sense,” then we have different and inconsistent understandings of the word “grammaticality” and “meaning.”

  • jffoster

    Indeed. And re your inset quote about John and Marsha’s meeting (and note the ‘s is not a noun suffix but a Noun Phrase suffix),  there are in fact quite a number of languages in various parts of the world which would say their equivalent of both / either

    1.   Them met.  
             and / or   
    2    They met.   

    Such languages, a type Linguists call Active, would use (1) if the meeting were a chance encounter but 2. if it were prearranged, i.e. deliberate. 

    And of course Modern Standard Literary and Scientific, Expository French says the equivalent of

          ’Him and me (we) went to New Orleans for Mardi Gras.’
           Lui et moi (nous) sommes allés à la Nouvelle Orléans pour le Mardi Gras.

  • mbelvadi

    One way to judge the conjunction phrases is to substitute the other word for a pronoun and see what happens.  Would you say, “give he and I” a chance or “give him and me” or even “give him and I”? “You” in “between you and I” is a problem since “you” is both cases and that may in fact be what makes that particular phrase much easier to take either way.

  • greymolly

    Pinker’s argument appears to me specious. Obviously, singular subjects and objects become plural when a new element is added by a conjunction. It is not at all obvious to me why this addition would make subjects become objects, and vice versa. But Yagoda’s closing argument is still more specious: we don’t say, “I’m going to see ‘The King and Me’” because ‘The King and I’ is a title. It is for the same reason that we don’t say “‘Seven Brides for Seven Brothers’ were on television last night.”

    • Guest

      Although your point about “the King and I” is well taken, the emperor of ignorance AND the king of pupil-taught grammar IS here to suggest you ought to consider what speakers actually say and under what circumstances before you assay what is grammatical or not.

      • greymolly

        If “you” means “people in general,” then your reply is far larger in scope than my comment, and perhaps it should have been a top-level post. If “you” means “me,” I can only reply that my comment did not attempt to “assay what is grammatical,” only to respond to the logic of two arguments which did. (You just got a free “like,” since my “reply” button was initially concealed. My compliments!)

        • Guest

          I did mean “people in general.”  Don’t worry about the free “like.”  As a teacher of grammar for 30+ years, I have already gotten the message loud and clear that I am an unlikable person, but thanks for pointing it out.

          I wouldn’t have kicked Happy Feet off the boat, and I have no personal need to zing you nor to “torment” 11182967, who is not alone in thinking that the world is divided into “those who like to memorize language rules and torment others with them and those who don’t.” My goal — to the extent that I have one — is to appeal to the intuitive linguistic knowledge of composition teachers and “creative” writers who believe, wrongly, that their subject matter (teachers) or creativity (writers) is in any way connected to a prescriptive usage manual.

          If just TELLING them what has been COMMON KNOWLEDGE for a really, really long time would work, the job would have been finished by now.  What a scientifically-minded linguist does is to begin with the DATA … what people know about their language … and reason upwards to how the language seems to be organized.  You are clearly among those folks.  What the maven does is to begin with a principle found in a book and reason downwards, trying to impose the principle  onto the data.  I wish without hope that I could be presumed not to belong with these folks.

          “Seven Brides and Seven Brothers were on TV” has just the right kind of appeal.  The certain knowledge that the sentence is UNGRAMMATICAL is probably strong enough to stall 11182967′s principle long enough to give pause … the sort of pause that enables thinking.

          My own compound subject of a singular verb did not work as well as yours.  I wanted to make a point about Pinker’s discussion, and that got tangled in my mess of words while I was distracted by something else.  I am truly sorry if my careless choice of words offended you.

          Moving around on this page is difficult for me, but I should not have entangled our comments.

  • wlreed1

    As with many of Pinker’s theories, I find this justification of an ungrammatical usage unconvincing.  It ignores the principle of compound constructions–that you musn’t change syntactic horses in mid-stream.  At  least not in writing (frag.).  My bete noire is the over-compensation of “myself” in such compound phrases, treating the reflexive pronoun as (usually) a form of the objective first-person pronoun:  “he sent the letter to John and myself.”  Fats Waller’s song is grammatical:  “I’m gonna sit right down and write myself a letter.”

    • altacharo

      I imagine the overuse of “myself” is due to fear of being incorrect when one is uncertain whether to say “John and I” or “John and myself.”

      As for me, I find “between you and I” incredibly grating, simply because I learned that it was incorrect.  It seems like a mark of a poor education.  But that is probably unfair, as those younger than me (and most people are these days, sigh) may not have had the same 7th grade English teacher as I.

      • altacharo

        Apologies for the typo – first line should have ended with “John and I” or “John and me.”

        Clearly more coffee is needed.

  • 11191774

    The plural of  is Dummkopf is Dummköpfe!

    I think the biggest point of contention for me on discussions like this is that people use, “She invited you and I to dinner,” for instance, precisely because they are trying to be grammatically correct.  It is, in some real sense, an over-correction on the part of the speaker.

    As such, it’s important to make a distinction between usage such as this and other “errors,” if there are such things any more.

    One can, I think embrace and celebrate the fact that every language is changing and evolving–that it always has and always will–without allowing it to do so haphazardly.  If every misuse of language only serves as a platform to find a justification for why it might actually be acceptable, the polemic becomes no better for its over analysis than the detractors are for rigid observance of the “rules” of grammar.

    • dank48

       ”The plural of  is Dummkopf is Dummköpfe!”

      In German, that’s true; not in English, unless you’d also insist on source-language plurals and, for that matter, capitalization and diacriticals for e.g. kindergarten, chablis, vodka, kielbasa, pilsner, . . .

      • 11191774

        Yes, you see that was a pun about people who insist on being technically correct about everything.  Sorry it went over your head,

        • dank48

           Oh. Duh. Well, thanks for spelling it out for me. One of those days . . .

  • electronicmuse

    OK. OK. But, the one that really grates, is the use of “myself” when “me” is correct. Maybe it’s because nobody wants to be associated with the Me Generation? “Myself” is reflexive, and etc.

    • http://www.tweedediting.com Katie Van Heest

      Indeed! Bryan Garner suggests that this kind of “untriggered reflexive” makes a user sound “somewhat doltish.”

  • procrustes

    Most people, most of the time, are ungrammatical.  Clever arguments as to why they are not “wrong.” really don’t accomplish much.  We don’t have some divinely-inspired grammar manual, but we do need distinctions and conventions to enable precise and clearly understood communications.  And the ongoing erosion of these makes it harder to communicate accurately.  But then, perhaps, clear and accurate communication is not a desideratum in our society.

    • temporaryname

      The issue, though, is not: What counts as grammatical? In fact, the issue is deeper than that: What counts as a language? The answer, as I see it, is that it is the speakers of a language who define that language, if only because a language has no live existence outside of the brains of its speakers. Therefore, if the vast majority of English speakers use ‘between you and I’ as part of English—and, I would note, they have no trouble communicating while doing so—then that means that ‘between you and I’ is grammatical in English, because those speakers are the ones who define what the language actually is.

  • dank48

    Sorry, but I don’t buy Pinker’s argument at all. “So a conjunction can have a different grammatical number from  the pronouns inside it. Why, then, must it have the same grammatical case as the pronouns inside it?” If number and case (or person, for that matter) all worked the same way, we probably wouldn’t need different terms for them.

    He’s right about number, of course, but what is true for number is not necessarily true for case. Break down the “Al Gore and I”: Give Al Gore a chance; give me a chance; give Al Gore and me a chance.  This really isn’t analogous to “Jennifer and I,” which requires the plural verb because Jennifer (singular) and I (singular) are more than one person (plural); 1 + 1 = 2. “Jennifer or I” remains singular, for instance.

    But the case of the elements of the object is the same as the case of the object as a whole. Similarly, the verb of the previous sentence is “is” because “case” is singular. Joining the subject with the following prepositional phrase, which has a plural noun, doesn’t justify “are.” The occasional such error is an accident. That don’t make it okay, nohow, and thou’lt never convince I that it are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Antsy-Kuhnwisse/100002159499682 Antsy Kuhnwisse

    You explained your position very well by using “The King and I,” but I don’t feel that “Al Gore and I” is the same kind of unit at all — it’s a phrase, not an exact title.

  • http://twitter.com/solri Robin Turner

    Pinker is wrong: Two singulars make a plural; two objects don’t make a subject. “Between you and I” sounds like a hyper-correction to me.

  • jffoster

    There seems to be a common (though not universal) thread here that supposes that conjunction can or ought have nothing to do with case assignment and that this is not just characteristic of Standard Literary and Expository English but is somehow a reflection of a universal logic and of how all languages work, or ought work. 

    Not so.   Specifically regarding Dank48′s comment above and Robin Turner’s just above about number and case, in Modern Standard French, the objects of a conjunction are in the same case as the objects of a preposition. Thus   avec moi, lui, …  ‘with me, him …’, and  lui et moi .  The nominative case for single simple subjects are  il and je so one says

    .Il est…    and  je suis…     ‘He is… and ‘I am….’.    But in conjoined subjects, the verb is plural to agree with the plural subject but the pronouns go into the disjunctive, or prepositional objective case, thus…..  

    Lui et moi sommes , Jeannette et moi sommes…..
    Him and me are… Jeanie and me are………

    never *Il et je sommes, *Jeannette et je sommes….
    *He and I are……. *Jeanie and I are….

    where the “star”, i.e. asterisk marks an ungrammatical form.

    So singular~plural agreement work on the basis of the subjects of the sentence but conjunction, like prepositions, trigger an oblique case assignment.  So while conjunction and case assignment are unrelated in Standard English, they certainly can be and are related in a number of other languages and it should not particularly surprise us to see them related in some dialects of English. And in no way is it indicative of illogical, crude, or shoddy thinking.

    • greymolly

       Regarding your comparison to French, I agree with this part:

      never *Il et je sommes, *Jeannette et je sommes….
      *He and I are……. *Jeanie and I are….

      but not entirely with this part:

      Lui et moi sommes , Jeannette et moi sommes…..

      Him and me are… Jeanie and me are………

      I was taught to call “lui” and “moi” “stress pronouns,” and that the phrases above were actually truncated versions of

      “Lui et moi, nous sommes …”
      “Jeannette et moi, nous sommes … ”

      In fact, if I recall correctly, “lui” et “moi” function as direct objects exclusively in imperative constructions:

      “Donne-le moi” = “Give it to me.”
      “Donne-le lui” = “Give it to him.”

      In normal declarative sentences, “me” is “me” and “him” is “le” (direct object) or “lui” (indirect object).

      So I don’t think we can make an exact parallel between the two languages.

      • jffoster

        Yes to your additional data.  In fact, me is also the indirect object form when it is part of the verb word (i.e. really an affix though written still with word spaces), as in 

         il me l’a donné (Pierre) (ce livre) .   
          he me it has givven (Peter) (this book)’Peter / He gave it to me.  or He gave me this book.’      
        (where parenthetic forms are grammatically optional.)

        You also get the oblique disjunctive case forms after a copula, just as in ordinary spoken English,  thus 

            C’est moi.    It’s me.    not  *C’est je.    *It’s I.  

        The personal pronouns such as nous are now often ommitted, and while you have commas in your examples, in modern spoken French, there is very often no pause.  

        So Modern French and Southern Highland (me and him went…) English have become very closely parallel, though by not entirely identical historic (diachronic) paths.

  • http://twitter.com/HemmensBen Ben Hemmens

    Me and Julio (though not the highways) agree ;-)

  • wildstrawberry

    I understand your point. However, to those of us who are brought up to the “old” and proper conventions of grammar, hearing these breaches of good grammar is like screeching chalk on a blackboard. I work in a university where this is  common usage among undergrads and grads, none of whom even know who Steven Pinker is. It is more a function of poor instruction in high school and/or university. These are slips in communication pointing to lack of instruction in grammar. mbelvad’z point is well taken. However, how can students think this way if they have never been taught either issue? Many have been taught from elementary school only “Jennifer and I” as good grammar. I worked in an elementary school for many years where the worst grammatical offenders were the teachers  and staff. How can we hope for the students to be using proper grammar when it is unimportant to the ones from whom they are supposed to learn? My observation is poor instruction does not seem to matter. Steven Pinker may have been correct as long as one thinks through the process. Unfortunately, many students have not been taught the fine art of critical thinking.
     

    • Guest

      wildstrawberry: > many students have not been taught the fine art of critical thinking.>>

      I do so agree with you.  Ain’t it awful?  It’s amazing that our species made it down out of the trees before Aristotle came along.  

  • Guest

    You know what I think was wrong?  Remember that penguin who got lost and ended up on a beach south of Wellington in New Zealand.  The kids named him Happy Feet and the public outcry against letting him die eating sand and trash on the beach shamed the powers that be into rescuing him.  They took him to the Wellington Zoo and washed out his stomach and nursed him back to health cramming little fish down his throat.  They gave him access to a little pool, but he really didn’t want to go swimming anymore.  The vet nudged him into the water and he proved that he COULD swim.  He just didn’t want to anymore.  He was willing to sit it out in his refrigerator, and thanks for all the fish.  I sent them $75, which is what they said it cost to care for him for a day.

    Then some wiseacre with a boat said, “I’ll help you get rid of him.”  So they packed up his portable refrigerator and the TV cameras and his vet and off they sailed into the South Sea.  And Happy Feet thought it was okay going for a boat ride.  ”He was content to stand around watching us watching him,” someone said.  They fixed up a slide off the side of the boat and encumbered him with a glue-on tracking device.  But he really had no independent intention of going down that slide. Riding on the boat was fine with him.  He was all like, “I could be your German Shepherd type companion.”  He was happy to flap his penguin feet around on the deck of the boat and smell the open air.

    If I were a guy with a boat sailing around on the South Sea and pretty easy access to fish to feed him, I’d have let him stay. But the TV cameras were there and they had to get the shot of him being released into the wild.  Someone said with quite a lot of authority that he should be “released,” even though he really didn’t seem to want to  go.  So the vet gave him a little boost with the toe of her boot because that’s the way it’s supposed to be.  I guess you’d lose your moral authority or something if you just let him stay on the boat since he really didn’t want to swim anymore.

    He lasted about a week.

    That’s what I think was wrong.  I’d have let him choose his own way for reasons of his own.

  • http://who-will-kiss-the-pig.blogspot.com Richard Grayson

    “The King and I” is only a little different? 

    It’s a very ancient saying,
    But a true and honest thought,
    That if you become a teacher,
    By your pupils you’ll be taught.

    As a teacher I’ve been learning –
    You’ll forgive me if I boast —
    And I’ve now become an expert,
    On the subject I like most –

    Grammar.

    • dank48

       The point is that “The King and I” is the title of a work. So “They saw ‘The King and I’” is correct, although, had His Majesty and I been taking a stroll, “They saw the king and me” would be right.

      Long ago, referring to the movie “The Fox,”  I asked the department head, visiting at our German table, “Wurde man sagen, ‘Hast du “Der Fuchs” gesehen?’ oder ‘Hast du “Den Fuchs” gesehen?’?” He smiled and said, very distinctly, “Man wurde sagen, ‘Haben Sie “Der Fuchs” gesehen?’”  Case, number, person, and a nice reminder of the circumstances in which one does and does not use the familiar singular form in German. That last I’ve never forgotten.

      • http://twitter.com/HemmensBen Ben Hemmens

        My experience is that German speakers honour that rule more often in the breach than in the observance. Probably one of these phenomena that begin around Hannover, travelling northwards ;-)

        (I mean the non-inflection of words in film titles. The du/Sie bit is a whole nother issue.)

        • jffoster

          I think what Dank48 says about the du / Ihr 2nd person familiar forms is largely true of older people of “long ago”, and particularly older professors of long ago. But even in the mid 60s I noticed young adults were using du a great deal and now my experience is that it and the plural ihr are driving the polite 3rd person as 2nd person Sie out in all but very formal uses.  I just a few months ago had occasion to write an email to a man in Germany complimenting him for and thanking him for a really nice aircraft repaint he had made and posted on a website for all who wanted it.  I used the Sie forms and his reply included a comment that my letter was “so full of politeness”, very different from what he was used to seeing.   So my experienc e suggests you and Dank48 are both correct.

  • inlibrarian

    On one level, this type of gramatical error makes me crazy, but in casual conversation, I have decided to let it go.  I don’t have to be the grammar police–unless, of course, my children are the offenders.

  • nordicexpat

    I suspect that not many here would be interested, but I think this article is one of the better ones I’ve read on the subject:
    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=188304

  • 11182967

    The world is divided into two kinds of people: those who like to memorize language rules and torment others with them and those who don’t.  Whom cares?

    • Guest

      As a purely descriptive statement about the language we share, I am happy to tell you that “whom cares?” is ungrammatical because native speakers of English do not use the expression.

      When an educated speaker says things like “Ain’t it the truth?” for the purpose of deflating pomposity, every native speaker of the language understands the expression and knows what it means, including the part about deflating pomposity.  You may not be able to articulate clearly what you know, but you DO know it.  That’s what grammaticality means: what native speakers know about their language.

      If Bill Clinton says, “Ain’t it the truth?” in response to a statement by a constituent from Arkansas, that person KNOWS that Clinton doesn’t ordinarily use the expression (why not? because it is condemned in the schools even though it is openly used in the community).  They also know that Clinton is not talking down to them.

      If Clinton said “Whom cares?” a native speaker of English would be  confused.  It doesn’t make sense … at  several levels of the meaning of meaning.

      We DO make errors, and they can be studied and analyzed and discussed endlessly.  If we had to MEMORIZE language rules or apply our CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS in order to produce a sentence, we would be mute and the question would be moot.

  • magyar

    There’s nothing quite like a discussion of case forms in English for bringing a dose of clunky writing to the comments here. What on earth was the writer thinking who concluded: “But then, perhaps, clear and accurate communication is not a desideratum in our society.”? desideratum? In a sentence bemoaning a lack of clear and accurate communication? Trying to sound better educated than you probably are, more like. And in another comment we have this gem: “How can we hope for the students to be using proper grammar when it is unimportant to the ones from whom they are supposed to learn?” Wow! What happened there? My guess is that the fear of ending a sentence with a preposition prevented the writer saying the much more natural “How can we hope for the students to be using proper grammar when it is unimportant to those they are supposed to learn from?” Come on, folks, we know you are sticklers for distinguishing you and I (though I’d bet a small sum most of you say “me too”) and that is your right, but please don’t confuse being meticulous with clear and easily understood writing.

    • jffoster

      Indeed there isn’t, Magyar Úr , and Szervusz!

             It is a good thing it is cases in English which have triggered some of these assertions of strong traditional but not very considered or linguistically informed pronouncements and prattle about “good” or “proper” grammar.   If it were what I take to be your either native or ancestral language, they’ld have some twenty or so cases to deal with, one of them the associative case, often used where English would use Nouns or Pronouns with coordinating conjunctions.  Or they could fight their case wars and proclaim that ”objects must be in the accusative” in Magyarul’s distant cousin, Finnish, where there are around 14 or so cases, including a nominative, an accusative, a genitive, and a partitive, and where more direct objects are in the partitive than the accusative, and about as many direct objects are in the nominative as in the accusative.

      • magyar

        Probably the best known (here in Hungary) instance of using nominative case when accusative is called for is in the film The Usual Suspects. All nouns, including names, take accusative endings when receiving the action of a verb. The hospital scene has the burnt sailor saying “Láttam Keyser Soze” (I saw Keyser Soze). Strictly it should be “Láttam Keyser Sozet”. Couldn’t get the same interest in it as this thread has, though…

        • jffoster

          Well, it certainly interests me.  In Finnish there’ s a class of verbs whose objects are nominative, and some additional variables, but I wasn’t aware of any instances in Hungarian where the  { -(O)t} accusative suffix wasn’t used.  And since the object is a proper name, we would suppose it was definite but since in the past 1st person the definite and indefinite object conjugations of the verb are identical, there’s no indication in the sailor’s speech that that might have been a factor.  It would be interesting to know whether, had the sailor been using the nonpast, whether he would have said

                ??Látok  Keyser Soze.      ’I see Keyser Soze.’

          instead of the expected 

                   Látom Keyser Sozet

           Curious. Thanks for the example.

          On some of the threads in this Lingua Franca blog, there are a fair number of commenters who seem to think grammar is not an empirical matter on which any actual data could possibly bear but rather seem to conceive it as a matter of philosophical speculation, universal logic, and /or morality and social propriety.

      • magyar

        I only just spotted your reply about látok/látom. My guess is that it was the director/script writer’s decision to use the uninflected form of Soze. For all but Hungarian speakers it would introduce a new name for the audience to absorb if the accusative ending was added, though the difference between the direct and indirect object verbs form would be irrelevant. From their accents the actors seemed to be Hungarian speakers but not to have lived in Hungary for a while or at all – maybe even 2nd generation immigrants to the US.

  • jpminnc

    There’s an old comedy routine that goes something like this:  
       Student to teacher: “Jack and me went to the movies with the other kids.”  
       Teacher: “You’re supposed to say ‘Jack and I.’ ”
       Student: “Yeah, well they threw Jack and I out cuz we talked too much.”

    It seems like mere hyper-correction, but is it?  Could it be that many otherwise ungrammatical isms are ‘correctly’ brought into existence by a similar process?  Children who say “I goed to the movie” are corrected to say “I went to the movie,” even though ‘went’ doesn’t fit any particularly grand pattern of consistency.  On that basis alone (i.e., “I went”), there is still nothing to guarantee that “she went” is correct but “she goed” is wrong.  

    My point is that Pinker’s justification in terms of syntactic consistency may not be necessary at all.  Children eventually say what they are told to say, whether or not it is systemically consistent.  The example of “between you and I” seems merely to be a case of a half-learned lesson.  Living language is, after all, a mass of consistencies beset by inconsistencies.  

    What is funny is when the half-learned lesson becomes a lesson in itself: in this case, when “between you and I” gains a general acceptability among part of the population.  But isn’t that, too, how language develops?  Perhaps someone out there could identify other English expressions that originated this way but are now seen to be proper.  

  • theatheist

    There is an interesting point to be made here, but it is marred by the almost certainly that “Between you and I” really is a hypercorrection. A better example would be “It’s me,” precisely because it’s not a misapplication of a rule. The maven would say it’s incorrect, because logically it is. But it’s what almost everyone says all the time, and when you hear “It is I” you probably do a double take.

  • odarp

    Yagoda and Pinker have not convinced me that “Al Gore and I” can be used as a grammatical object just because Clinton and Gore ran together. Consider that if Clinton had been referring to the ticket in the standard way, he would have put himself first. (“Gore and Clinton in ’92”? How about “Elect Miller and Goldwater”? Or “Tyler and Tippecanoe Too”?) But he put himself second because a courtly Arkansan would mention the other person first. I think that in doing so he moved, linguistically, from the territory of a reference to the Democratic ticket into the territory of a reference to two guys who are asking for a favor to be given to both of them—so what he said IS like “Give Al Gore a chance to bring America back and give me a chance to bring America back,” in my opinion. To me, “Give Al Gore and me a chance” resembles “Give Hillary and me our due” more than it does “Give Clinton-Gore a chance.”
    Also, consider the flipped version, “Give I and Al Gore a chance to bring America back.” Sounds pretty far from standard, doesn’t it?

  • renprof

    Has anyone thought about asking BDSM  practitioners what they think about this?  I’m not, but in general, when it comes to sexuality, I put personal, lived experience first.  

    I’m a bit fed up with cis people speaking for trans people, heterosexuals speaking for homosexuals, and in this case, people who do not identify with BDSM for those who do.

    As far as 50 Shades Of Grey goes, I understand that the problem with it is that it is so awful. Poor writing, shallow characterization, and a complete lack of understanding of sexuality in general.  

    This Dear Author review hits the nail on the head: “The narrative wants to occupy a position where we get to take the moral high ground sexually speaking but at the same time get to be thrilled by the eroticism of BDSM. . . . it seems to say of BDSM, ‘Tee he he he! That’s so gross!’ But secretly loves the titillation it gets from viewing the forbidden.”

    You can read the full view here.

    http://dearauthor.com/book-reviews/f-reviews/review-fifty-shades-of-grey-by-e-l-james/

    • Tenured_Radical

      Professor Weiss’s book actually does ask practitioners what they think, and they have a lot to say.

      As a side note, these comments are a really good conversation.

      • renprof

        Thanks.  I might look at the whole thing.  Sounds interesting.

    • physioprof

      I never heard of that book before, but read the review anyway, and it was fucken awesome!

  • pianiste

    It’s probably best not to get tied up in knots about this issue. I’d recommend submitting to the inevitability of ending up intellectually strapped and academically constrained. Having a good belt or two, however, will only end up masking the situation and knocking one back on her hells. It’s not always necessary to dominate the conversation or master the activity, no matter what the discipline. Not that I’d put a gag order on the discussion, or clamp down or wax censorial against the flame of knowledge.

    But seriously, folks, it’s helpful to remember–as some comedian said–”How do you like living in an age when you can point randomly to any item in the Sears catalogue, and know that there’s somebody out there who wants to f**k it?”

     

    • physioprof

       Good one! hahahahahaha

  • robertdobolinaesq

    Incidentally, for the blogger: absolutely no link from any other part of this site to this blog is currently working, including from the on-site search engine. I had to go through Google to come back and re-read this. Thought you might like to know.

    • Tenured_Radical

      Perhaps the Chron site was having problems:  everything seems fixed now.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003680186401 Dan Foley
  • historiann

    Word.  But contemporary “postfeminism” or choice feminism compels us all to affirm each other’s choices, and forbids us to say that no, in fact, there is such a thing as an antifeminist choice, or sexual act, or whatever.  Whatever a woman wants is de facto feminist, and to disagree with this sensibility is to court backlash (as Margot is doing here, and as Dusenbery was in the exchange related above.  She made a completely sensible point, and was apparently leapt upon because she didn’t entirely affirm another woman’s theoretical choice as a feminist choice!)

    It’s like childhood today:  everybody gets a trophy, and everyone gets to call herself feminist, no matter what their actual performance on the field.  But it actually is *harder* to stay in the workforce rather than “opt out,” if one has the luxurty of a rich partner.  It is difficult to think about how our sexualities intersect with and relfect (or contradict) our politics.  It is sometimes socially awkward for heterosexual women to choose partners who aren’t two inches taller/two years older/and making twice what they make.  We all make choices, but they are not all equally feminist.

  • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones Meshell Assofjello


    We all make choices, but they are not all equally feminist.”

    Hi. I’m concerned with this statement. How does one qualify what makes a choice feminist… or equally feminist to another feminist choice? 

    I guess maybe I am confused because it almost sounds like you’re suggesting there is a uniform feminism that applies to all women of all ages, races, ethnicities, country of origin, and socioeconomic status. And… if we know and accept ANYthing about feminism, we know that is not tue.

    Traditional feminism historically and theoretically excludes poor women, women of color, women not born female, and other groups of women. Why, then, should we be surprised that there are women who adapt the most basic core principles of feminism and apply them to their lives as they see fit? If you’re going to leave us out, what choice do we have but to create our own?

    I am a Black feminist sub (I elaborated on what that means here http://knobslobbingfeminism.com/blog/in-the-life-a-black-feminist-sub/ ), who happens to be a college-educated career woman and mother, and a divorcee. Your feminism is not my feminism, at least not in daily practical application. And that is fine because I think there is room for more than one voice and more than any singular experience.

    There is certainly room for choice.

    I value, more than anything, the freedom of choice. Having the freedom of choice doesn’t mean one will always choose what the majority wants you to, but one remains empowered as long as that choice exists. Take the right to vote, for example. Having had people before me fight for my right to vote, both as a woman and as a Black person, one might argue that I MUST vote, in every single election, no matter what. I argue that I have the right to conscientiously abstain, if I don’t feel that casting my vote for any of the candidates represents ME. Having the right to vote, and equally to refrain from doing so, is empowering to me. Or the right to make choices about my own reproduction. I’m grateful to have the right to make whatever choice I want, be it use birth control pills, have an abortion, or carry a fetus to term. My choice. Just because people fought for my right to choose an abortion, it doesn’t mean I’m obligated to have one. I’m still empowered by that choice though.

    What about religion? People argue that religious people are mindless sheep who, if they would but study their religious beliefs, they’d learn the “truth” about whatever they’re supposed to uncover. Religious people are called unenlightened, fools, etc. What if people actually DO study their religions, the histories, the dogma, the doctrine, etc and still choose to have faith and believe? Isn’t that an empowering, informed choice they are allowed to make?

    How do we decide which of these choices is “right”? How do we decide which is upholding whatever theory or principles we believe they should? I’m not sure we get to make those choices for other people. You deciding that my choices are not equally feminist…is limiting, dismissive, and condemning… in ways I thought we were trying to escape.

    As feminists.
    :)

  • AlstonRoberto98

    my best friend’s sister-in-law got paid $14696 the prior month. she is making money on the inte<!–truth is almight–>rnet and bought a $372500 home. All she did was get blessed and work up the steps uncovered on this link ===>> ⇛⇛⇛⇛► http://job2seek.blogspot.com

  • robertdobolinaesq

    I don’t think historiann is implying a single, uniformly applicable feminism at all. She’s just implying that a choice doesn’t automatically become ethically neutral, much less “empowering” — nor is it cleansed of entanglements with power and socialization — once the language of emancipation (sexual or otherwise) is applied to it.

    The problem with many common choice-feminist arguments — and bear in mind I say this as someone who overall comes down more or less in support of the choice-feminist camp — is that they confuse technical validity with descriptive power. It is, technically, valid to say that there’s no simple set of rules for determining which choices are and aren’t feminist, and that therefore any given woman’s sexual (or other) choices — even if they seem superficially disempowering — may well be empowering for her. But you can’t stop the analysis there, because all you wind up with is an abstract model of choice in which everybody must be assumed to be acting in their own best interests at all times*… and the world pretty clearly does not work this way.

    The background of these choices is after all still a society whose ideas about gender are in transition, in which people grow up with many contradictory pressures, in which social and racial injustice remain facts of life, in which broken families and child sexual abuse are serious problems for many people… and this is all quite apart from the inherent limits on knowledge of outcomes, and the challenges of achieving genuine self-knowledge, that are common to every setting. Any analysis of choice and how it fits into a society, and into a narrative of emancipation and empowerment, has to take these kinds of realities into account and admit that choices can be and often are conditioned by them. (This may interfere with the notion of oneself as being a person whose choices are all inherently good and healthy, but none of us has an inbuilt right to such a notion anyway.) It’s correct to say that people should be careful about leaping to judgment of BDSM practitioners and communities, but fallacious to say that it’s either possible or desirable to completely abstain from any kind of ethical assessment of these phenomena, and it’s a habit that frankly does the community itself no favours.

    (* The resemblance of this to neo-liberal economic theories that assume everyone is a rational actor is striking.)

  • GatesMaura44

    my co-worker’s sister got paid $21912 the previous week. she gets paid on the internet and got a $416800 house. All she did was get fortunate and put into action the steps given on this link===>> ⇛⇛⇛⇛► http://job2seek.blogspot.com

  • BallardKaren22

    my co-worker’s sister got paid $21912 the previous week. she gets paid on the internet and got a $416800 house. All she did was get fortunate and put into action the steps given on this link===>> ⇛⇛⇛⇛► http://job2seek.blogspot.com

  • The Chronicle of Higher Education
  • 1255 Twenty-Third St, N.W.
  • Washington, D.C. 20037