• Tuesday, May 29, 2012

Previous

Next

The Great Fee Scam

July 29, 2011, 5:10 pm

Suppose you went to buy a new car, agreed on a price, and the dealer then announced that there were a number of other fees that had to be paid: a dealer preparation fee, a license procurement fee, and a transportation fee (all of which dealers sometimes charge).  You would probably be a little irritated, but might agree to them.

But suppose he or she then announces there is also a “dealer capital cost fee” (to pay for a new showroom), “a sales representative service fee” (to pay the salesperson’s salary) an “information dissemination fee” (to pay for the dealer’s advertising), and a couple of others as well, adding several thousand dollars to the cost of the car. You probably would leave the dealership in a huff without the car, and, if feisty enough, might call the consumer protection agency, Better Business Bureau,  state attorney general, or some functionary of the Nanny State to complain about deceptive business practices which might then lead to legal action.

Welcome to higher education, the home of lots of new “mandatory fees.” A great higher education reporter, Mary Beth Marklein (USA Today) tells us how prevalent they have become. In Colorado, for example, we learn that between 2006 and 2010, tuition rose 69 percent, but fees rose more than twice as much, 142 percent.  For years, colleges have appeased old jocks, alumni Bubbas, and others by increasingly subsidizing intercollegiate athletics with hidden fees incorporated within some sort of comprehensive student activity fee. The practice of deceptive fees, however, has now reached new levels of absurdity.  Marklein tells us that Indiana University has a steep “temporary repair and maintenance fee,” Southern Illinois University a  “matriculation fee” of $180, etc.

Why are schools doing this? They are being hounded to keep tuition increases low, so they are trying to disguise the rapidly rising cost of higher education by bragging “our tuition fees went up only 3 percent” when, in fact, total mandatory costs rose 5 or 6 percent. While the schools think doing this is clever and a way to assuage public opinion and/or get around legal constraints on fee increases, the reality is parents writing checks know what is coming out of their bank accounts. In fact, this practice makes universities appear to be both greedy and dishonest.

Fortunately, the democratic process works, albeit imperfectly, in our country. Irate legislators are fighting back, and several states have imposed constraints or full disclosure laws. All of this confirms what I have long said: As long as third parties are doing much of the funding, universities will continue to raise prices–by hook or crook–with relative impunity.

As long as incentives to reduce costs and expenditures are almost non-existent, it will not happen. This huge third-party involvement in higher education has not only raised prices in my judgment, but has had several other adverse effects. First, it has significantly reduced academic quality, as an increasing portion of students simply are not equipped for what historically was considered college level work–read Academically Adrift. Second, it has lowered the value of the degree as a signalling device identifying top talent, as manifested in more college graduates getting jobs as bartenders and taxi cab drivers, Third, and the saddest, it has been corrupting, leading universities to engage in all sorts of deceptive practices to feed their money habit that is akin to a craving for drugs by addicts.

Question: would you feel more comfortable buying a used car from a well established car dealer or from a university president? When I started in higher education more than a half of century ago, I would have quickly answered “university president.” Now I am not so sure.

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

  • Print
  • Comment
  • bookbinder

    I just checked the financial sections of the websites of half a dozen colleges and universities in my area, and all of them give a figure for “Tuition and Fees”. It doesn’t appear that these fees are slipped in as stealth charges once you have enrolled. It may be, as Prof. Vedder suggests, that colleges raise fees when they cannot raise tuition, but to imply or suggest that this is duplicitous may not be entirely correct.

    There is at least one good reason for separating tuition and fees into two categories: students usually pay both, but under some circumstances may pay only one or the other. In one category, our graduate students who are writing dissertations but are not in-residence, as we say, can pay tuition, but are exempted from paying fees, especially if they have alternative sources of healthinsurance. By the same token, a graduate student here who has taken the requisite number of credits for their degree may opt to retain student status by paying the fees, but is no longer required to pay tuition – e.g. while writing a thesis.

    Finally, a large portion of the fees charged by the colleges and universities that I know go to non-academic costs. Athletic fees support facilities that we cannot justify using tuition to maintain, especially for students residing elsewhere (see above); health insurance fees are assessed by a separate agency and are lumped with “fees” simply to make it easier for
    students (or parents) to write one check. Student activity fees are used to support a variety of extra-curricular activities, and like athletic activities are conceptually distinct from the academic activities supported by tuition. Prof. Vedder implies, without much evidence, that fees are comparable to “dealer capital cost fee” or “information dissemination fee”, but in the breakdown we get of what students fees cover at my university there is nothing like these invented costs at all — anything comparable is covered by tuition.

    I think the better analogy for many fees might be the list of fees that we pay when we buy a car: licensing, insurance, emissions, sales tax, registration, etc. At least my local colleges announce right up front what the total price will be!

  • goxewu

    Prof. Vedder trips over himself here: “You probably would leave the dealership in a huff without the car, and,
    if feisty enough, might call the consumer protection agency, Better
    Business Bureau,  state attorney general, or some functionary of the
    Nanny State to complain about deceptive business practices which might
    then lead to legal action.”

    In other words, it’s one of those wonderful free-enterprise entities that’s trying to screw you over, and your recourse is to consult some office of the government. But that fact gets in the way of Prof. Vedder’s politics, thus the gratuitous swipe (“Nanny State”) at the not-for-gouging public office which might help somebody screwed over by the for-profit sector.

    The most notorious fee, BTW, is the fee at D-1 universities that helps finance the money pit of big-time athletic programs, i.e., those circuses staged for the benefit of a limited number of students who choose to paint themselves funny colors and wave foam rubber fingers in the rooting sections and a seemingly unlimited number of beer-sodden middle-aged alumni and assorted fans. Recently, UCLA got caught sliding money from a supposedly student-athletics fee (i.e., for facilties actual students, instead of the school’s semi-pro basketball and football players, used for sport) over to renovation of its arena for semi-professional basketball. The chancellor excused the malfeasance on the ground that it board of trustees are legally allowed to “modify”–that is, divert–a resolved use of student funds after it’s decided.

    If Prof. Vedder wants to carp at the “Nanny State,” he might start with state schools who provide entertainment (it’s “ESPN,” remember, not just “SPN”) content for the private-enterprise television networks.

  • fizmath

    I think the bloated athletic costs might be reduced if we had some real competition. It would be nice if every state had at least one college with no athletics.  Then families could vote with their pocketbook.  Are there any state 4 year universities like this?  I personally don’t know of any. 

  • prof1977

    Yes, they are a few and do very poorly in enrollment especially with high end students. Most students want the entire college experience (even if they never go to a game) and to them that includes having sports on their campus.

    *************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
    “I think the bloated athletic costs might be reduced if we had some real competition. It would be nice if every state had at least one college with no athletics.  Then families could vote with their pocketbook.  Are there any state 4 year universities like this?  I personally don’t know of any”.

  • danlundquist

    my car dealer unabashedly uses the term “standard options”

  • ehyouadvisor

    “A ‘great’ higher education reporter, Mary Beth Marklein (USA Today)…”. I don’t know what else Professor Vedder said after that because any semblance of objectivity was destroyed, so I quit reading the article. It would be appropriate to use terms such as award winning, respected, or widely published with examples of how the author came to describe her as such. I do hope this is type of toady, fawning cronyism is not on display when teaching in the classroom.

  • manoflamancha

    This notion would be more appealing if some state school openly rejected athletics for the few and enjoinrd a policy of exercise for the many. Sports facilities could then be used to reduce our obesity rate. Never happen.

  • tlnorth

    They may post tuition and fees on their websites, but the promote their tuition. Personally, I think any required cost should be considered tuition and that is what they should advertise. Schools are now charging more in fees than they do for tuition, all luring in folks by advertising just their tuition amount.

  • R117532

    As of July 1 this year, the for-profits have been required to disclose program and location specific all-in costs, on-time graduation rates, loan values, and employment and earnings — all using negatively skewed fed data. One unanticipated outcome has been that their initial stats look to be more in line with what they were saying all along than with what ED’s character assassination team was claiming. Lots of variation, of course, depending on the program and the type of students it serves. 

    This is perhaps of marginal interest except that the feds have, once again, been too clever by half. Because of the impositions on the for-profits, the pressure for the publics to match this level of transparency is rising rapidly. And well it should. When they are finally forced to be honest, soon I think, an additional layer of competition will be in place. This competition will exert a downward pressure on tuition and fees at all institutions. More schools will be forced to become efficient to survive. 

    Prediction: even with, now, both hands tied behind their backs, for-profits will continue to gain market share and publics will continue to distort the real message into a convoluted quality issue, standing idly by while their market share continues to decline. No matter, though, they have “quality’ on their side even though the same people who hide behind the vague term refuse to allow it to be defined, measured, reported, and managed.Having said the above, I think that Mr. Vedder has selected the worst offenders from the bunch to make a portion of his case. Quite a few public universities openly disclose all fees. They may be excessive, and there is absolutely no justification beyond bad management for price hikes 2-5 times the CPI, but they are not hiding their incompetence. It is there on the website, for everyone to see.

  • olmsted

    This is an interesting point, differentiating fees vs. tuition.  Cost of delivery is, in reality, what one might ask.  At least that is what our department did a year ago.  And what we starkly found was that no funding is in place to address the life cycle costs for what students expect relating to architectural education facilities that our majors rely upon.  In effect, as students take a toll on facilities there is no funding model in place to replace the degraded equipment.  Still, students expect quality facilities (as if that occurs by magic).  They don’t know how you (as a department) fund them, they just expect them.

    Universities “lure” students by many means, not the least of which are the learning environment and associated activities. So many consumers today want the experience and not a bunch of details.  Responsible academics will need to have a funding model in place that provides for that expectation while also responding to the decreasing likelihood that Facilities, the dean, or the state legislature will be able to pony up large sums for remodels and replacements.  

  • cmorgan

    Just curious–why is this in a section labelled “Innovations”? If this section is to address “insight and comments about higher education”, how is this innovating?

  • hermz1

    I don’t often agree with Vedder’s rightwing agenda. However, in this case, I couldn’t agree more. My daughter attends a public university and receives a full tuition merit scholarship (so far so good). We were shocked with the sticker price of her fees, which add up to several thousand dollars per semester. We don’t know what most of these fees are for, and some of them, she may not even use the service for which the fee is collected, but we have to pay them for her to continue to enroll. Here are her fees for last semester:
    -Fees per each credit hour—varies between lower division and upper division courses
    -Lab fees for science courses as well as fees for art courses and language courses
    -Academic excellence fee
    -Additional academic fees (several of these)
    -Security Services fee
    -Residential Housing Program fee (in addition to R&B)
    -Fine Arts Enrichment fee
    -International Program fee
    -Transit fee
    -Health & Wellness fee (in addition to Health Center fee & Student Insurance)
    -Library Excellence fee
    -Connectivity fee
    -Arts & Sciences Technology fee
    -Academic Records fee
    -Student Advising fee
    -Special Event fee
    -Education Enrichment fee
    -Technology fee
    -Arts & Sciences Enrichment fee
    -Activity fee
    -Facility fee
    -Cultural Recreation Services fee
    -Student Assessment fee

  • dank48

    So, it sounds as if nothing much has changed at IU in the past four decades, aside from inflation (of various kinds). Do for-profit schools have athletic programs? Do community colleges? Just asking.

    Murray Sperber got it right, imo. My alma mater should just go ahead and change its name to Southern Indiana Sports, Inc.

  • fulrich

    My aren’t we cynical.  Universities are often between a rock and a hard place.  In Missouri public universities have had support from the state decline by almost half in the last15 years.  In addition, the legislature, in its anti-higher education widsom, froze tuition raises to that of the increase in personal income in the state.  So where are universities to get the monies to maintain a semblence of quality?  Fees can be sneaky, but they may be a necessity.  At my institution most added fees have been voted for and approved by the student senate.  Students seem to understand the financial bind of institutions of higher learning more than legislators–or 50 year veteran profs who are secure in their income.  No raises for 3 years and cuts in travel and other institutional support for faculty still asked to teach and do research (not to mention raise families) results in faculty, particularly the younger ones, bare the burden of lack of societal support for public higher education.  Higher fees may be regretable, but universities should go to the students for varification.

  • fulrich

    You might think of sending your daughter to another university with fewer, more up-front fees.  My institution does not have nearly this list of fees. 

  • 22286504

    This was a serious problem even before the current, severe cutbacks in higher education funding and is more serious now.   It seems to me that tuition ought to pay the cost of the educational program.  Fees should be limited to elements of the program that are not generally used.  So a fee for art supplies provided in the studio for the use of individual students might warrant a fee as might breakables and disposable items in a science lab.  The costs of instruction that don’t relate to such “consumables” ought to be part of tuition.   It’s a toiugher question whether an athletics facilities fee ought to be levied.   Many students don’t us campus athletic facilities–gyms, pools, etc.  Yet there is a health benefit if they do, so a case can be made for levying the fee on all students so that all have access when/if they are motivated–as hopefully they will be–to engage in healthy physical activity.

    A good step is to have all fees or fee increases annually approved by a university-wide committee that would include administrators from both sides of the divide (finance people but also student affairs or other personnel who presumably at watchdogs for students) and students who represent the student body and feel a duty to protect them from being gouged.   And, of course, the final decision should be made by the president or chancellor because he/she is finally answerable to the public, to students, and to others who are “stakeholders” in the university.

    But, yes, fees have gotten seriously out of control, not only in this recession for but most of the past decade.  

  • 12080243

    We (www.usmnews.net) have been reviewing the Strategic Plan at the University of Southern Mississippi. The Strategic Plan seems like a marketing tool for, among other goals, “The University Scam.” Part 2 seems relevant to this discussion:

    Part 1 reviewed what was missing from USM President Saunders’ Strategic Plan. Amazingly, it was honesty, integrity, and truth. Let’s take a look at what was included. Part 2 begins that process with “spirit of humanity” which means: 

    “Kindness, compassion, respect, and support for others
    • The central belief in the importance of loving, supportive relationships
    • Belief and commitment to the transformative value of education
    • Making a difference in a student’s life
    • Focusing all services on the ultimate end consumer: the student”
    (“Summary of Findings” presented by idgroup, Consulting and Creative which appears to be
    an advertising agency.)

    As I write Part 2, I’m sitting in on a trial of a local builder. One of the witnesses graduated from USM. She was quite simply ignorant of the English language, e.g.: “Me and Sally done draftin’ for dat builder.” And, logic was out of the question, e.g.: “I dune what I was told.” A pitiful creature, I couldn’t help but feel sorry for her. All the love, compassion, and administrative “retention” imperatives couldn’t help this poor child or provide her a transformative education. My yard person has a masters degree in education from USM. I
    like him but what does he need a bachelors degree, much less a masters degree, to mow lawns. I’ll not go into the details of the fellow who got a bachelors degree at USM in criminology and is now listed on the internet as a sex offender. He’ll be on that list until 2015. Keep in mind, these are the USM graduates I’ve come into contact with in the past couple of weeks. What difference did USM make in these students’, or rather, consumers’ lives?  

    I know, no institution can be responsible for its graduates, but that’s a straw man, especially when President Saunders is full of so much love and compassion for her consumers. The
    students’ mentioned above and their behavior are not vague like President Saunders’ Strategic-Planning “love” for them.

    As this series is published, usmnews.net in interested in the thoughts and observation of readers. Send comments to marcdepree@gmail.com.

    Chauncey M. DePree, Jr., DBA, Professor, School of Accountancy, University of Southern Mississippi. See, recent research at the Social Science Research Network, http://ssrn.com/author=397169

  • 22081781

    “They need the attendance policy to help them make good choices that enable them to succeed.”  This suggests that these students are not mature adults. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Eliana-Osborn/572634960 Eliana Osborn

    Educationally, they aren’t mature.  They are new to school and do need help maturing in that way. 

  • http://twitter.com/ksmanning K. S. Manning, PhD

    How is making an attendance policy mandatory going to help them make good choices?  If you take the choice away (as you do by making it mandatory) what have they learned?  If they fail because they choose not to come, that is their responsibility.  I feel if you baby them you’ll end up with babies. 

    Furthermore, you become responsible for the paperwork required by a required attendance policy.  Don’t you have better ways you can spend your time?  I do. 

    If they can pass without coming, god bless ‘em.  If they fail without coming, god bless ‘em.  If they come and work hard for their own success, so will I.  But I will not work harder for that success than they themselves will.

  • proftowanda

    The term “mandatory” may be problematic for you.  In this context, the policy does not mean that campus police will dragoon students to class.  They still have the choice to attend or not. 

    And then, as you say, they will see whether their choice was wise or irresponsible.  And that will be part of their maturing process.

    Those of us who teach “13th graders” recognize that they are in transition, and a rather abrupt one, from the K12 years — when their attendance truly was mandatory — to the responsibilities of the college years.  If they are to succeed in college, they really do need to come to class, although they may not realize that.  Having a policy with penalties and impact upon the grade, not a policy that could send police to the door, correctly focuses the onus upon academics and can persuade more students to attend, with the result that more students succeed — and more may make the connection and continue on their own to attend class and get to graduation.

    And if a colleague wishes to spend her time on assisting students in transition in this way, while you either opt to do so another way — or perhaps opt out of teaching these transitional students and only see those who succeeded and went on to upper-level coursework — it is not for others of us to question such policies . . . lest yours and ours be questioned next.

  • missoularedhead

    I bribe. In a discussion-based ethics class, I tell students that if 80% of them show up for all 14 weeks of class, in week 15, we will have pizza and casual conversation about their research. If 80% DON’T show up, then it’s 5 minute formal presentations with powerpoint required.  So far, so good. Thank goodness, as I don’t know who would dislike those presentations more, myself or the students!

  • big_giant_head

    Have you ever met one? 

  • eng101

    Agreed! I did not have a strict attendance policy my first few semesters
    teaching on the college level (attendance policies seemed so
    “high-school” to me), but I now have one. My original attitude was, “If
    they choose not to come to class and don’t pass, that’s their problem,
    not mine.” I still believe that, but I also recognize that many of these
    first-year students don’t realize how much missing class can cripple
    their ability to master the subject taught (not to mention crippling
    their grade). I want them to succeed, and I’ve found that having a strict attendance policy increases their chances of doing so.

  • 11196496

    How to balance ‘required’ attendance and responsible choice? Respect the fact that students have a life outside the classroom and may have to balance two competing goods, being in class and being somewhere else to do something good. My attendance policy, the Industrial Policy of Attendance, is this: students who are in class at every meeting for the first month earn a ‘sick’ day. This is similar to a business policy. Sick days may be accumulated just as in most businesses. The only requirement for using a sick day is to inform me before class starts by phone or e-mail that they intend to take the day as a sick day. All other absences impact a student’s grade. There is no permission to use these sick days on exam days or days a student is scheduled to lead a class or make a presentation. Using this policy, I saw attendance improve considerably. Students occasionally tell me why they are taking sick days. Their reasons validate for me the importance of encouraging students to make good prudential judgments.

  • wilkenslibrary

    Oh how I wish that contingent faculty had sick days…

    Betsy Smith/Adjunct Professor of ESL/Cape Cod Community College

  • yellow1

    Any, all, none, and some can be both plural or singular, FYI. 

  • minnesotan

    I suppose it would be odd if a publication dedicated to reporting higher education news didn’t have its own organizational idiosyncrasies, like the institutions it covers. ;)

  • minnesotan

    “All of those students is passing.”? Not in this case.

  • juliewhite

    Funny, I did the same thing in spring semester, 2011, with similar results.  I like some of the ideas commenters have posted, however, as alternatives!

  • MChag12

    That is my feeling as well most of these policies are just more work for me. Including I am beginning to believe, the academic dishonesty policies. They require A LOT of paperwork from me, but the student gets it erased with one 15 minute counseling session. And the rate of plagiarism has just gone up. So I should bother why?

  • cacarte

    In my experience, most of them are not

  • yellow1

    None of the pies are delicious. Not trying to beat the dead horse, but this one has nothing to do with poor grammar instruction, British vs. American usage, etc. Any, all, none, and some are four words whose context will more than likely determine if they are singular or plural.

    minnesotan: The author did not write, “All of those students is passing.” However, the author starts with “several students,” turns that into “they,” and leaves none plural. These words, unlike a word like “dogs,” cannot be taken out of sentence level context when determining whether they are singular or plural. It comes down to context, like when we say, “All is well.” I’ll grant that all is typically plural, but it is not always.

  • sinaoni

    Maturity and adulthood are two different concepts that an attendance policy does not address.  Attendance policy should set the tone for acceptable behaviors in our classrooms.  Some fifty year olds are not mature and some fourteen year olds are.

  • tardigrade

    “Maturity” is a context laden value judgement.  Which is why I hate the word.  Outside of physical processes it is almost universally used when “objectifying” one’s personal value preconceptions to another’s context.

  • tardigrade

    Out of curiosity, what was the overall grade distribution (including withdrawals) before this policy and after it?

  • tardigrade

    “This is similar to a business policy. Sick days may be accumulated just as in most businesses. ”

    The problem is is that I’m paying “you” (indirectly, granted) to be there, not the other way around.

    My mind knows the difference.  It also knows the difference between real work, with real importance (such as one would do in an old-style apprenticeship), and make work that has no other meaning than to function as a generic teaching device that may or may not be teaching me things I don’t already know, or feel I need to know.

    No policies are going to change this knowledge. Period.  And I don’t entirely have conscious over-riding control over the value judgements either, as I got this way through over a decade of formative experiences in K-12, and on-the-job learning.

  • graddirector

    Doesn’t mandatory attendance again have us treating college students as children?  If they went to work instead of college, non attendance would result in being fired which I always equate to an “F” in a course…….
     I know that non-attendance is sometimes due to poor planning of school and work time (I had a student who did not come to class because they decided to take some offered overtime at their job instead of class.  However, in other cases (and even in this case since he was not that financially needy), it is just a lack of commitment to college.  Should we bother trying to retain such students?  I am not certain…

  • MChag12

    I go back and forth on this issue.  On one hand, I do not like being put in the position of the attendance police.  If they do not attend, they will not do well, most likely.  On the other hand, college students of traditional age in particular seem to have become more immature rather than more mature over the past 20 years or so.  Some don’t seem to realize that classes are their for a reason, and part of their learning is bound in their participation.  There are too many students who expect information to be fed to them, which means their being there is really inconsequential.  What is depressing is that fewer and fewer students in my ever-growing sized classes are interested in engaging the material.  I truly do not understand why many of them are there and more so, why we accept them.  As a State university there is a pretense that we get compensated per student, but that is an old wives-tale.  It never happens.  So why do these incompetent administrators continue to operate is if it does?  They rant about retention, but most of their policies run directly against this achievement.  So does attendance in the long run really matter?  I’m really not sure it does.

  • coneystew

    Liberal arts colleges are not the only entities to suffer from a remarkable degree of self-absorption. Our students tend to be entirely self-absorbed as well. So how should we respond? Collaboration is certainly one way to meet the challenge, and the collaborative methods suggested are legitimate. However, let us be aware of the need to connect to our students. Our students should also have the opportunity to collaborate, and I suggest that collaborative efforts be made with service learning opportunities. Service learning connects students to their communities, and as population demographics change I believe we need to be aware of an increasing need to connect with the community. Of course I bemoan the apparent loss of respect for the Liberal Arts, which form the foundations of our civilization. What if, one day, no one reads Plato, or Shakespeare, or …. oh, but almost no one does now, right? At least among many of our students. Perhaps that’s presumptious. But we’ll survive: perhaps LA scholars will be hurled into  some far-off corner of the galaxy to discuss the fine points of something or other. But for now, let’s help our students develop strong, constructive critical thinking skills by collaborating with their community resources. Within the university system they can construct problem/solution groups across the disciplines, putting feet to their dreams and making positive changes that will impact their families, their work environments, and their living environments. This may bring about an actual resurgence of interest in the Liberal Arts, as they connect to art, music, literature and those social opportunities that are such a strong aspects of service learning.

  • herter

    Can you provide us with the evidence to back up your statement that there are more unemployed graduates of Wesleyan, Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin wandering the streets of Boston and NYC than there are biz admin graduates from Whatever U.?   Opinions are nice, but cold hard facts are nicer.  Surely you have numbers to cite. 

  • http://twitter.com/MaxFiction Ed Desautels

     ”The opportunity problem is that corporate America has decided not to
    train its employees anymore, and has passed that chore off to higher
    education.” Bingo. Yet one more way in which the corporations have figured out how to socialize risk and the cost of doing business. Corps. whine that they can’t find people with the skills to fill their open positions, even while they sit on trillions of dollars that, in part, could go to training their workforce (as was done for years in days gone by when the economy was, you know, _growing_).

  • bobbijean48

    “For as long as liberal-arts colleges have existed, people have been predicting their imminent demise. No segment of American higher education has had more epitaphs written about it than this sector.”  I don’t think higher education can continue with this “Who Moved My Cheese” philosophy of the naive mice in the story.  This “we’ve always survived” mentality will, indeed, probably be the kind of thinking that will mean a serious “thinning of the heard” of higher education institutions.  Colleges and universities have GOT to get with where the new paradigm of higher education is moving.

  • danlundquist

    THANK YOU PRES WEISS: “The market is happening to us” is the most realistic acknowledgement yet that the stewardship paradigm has changed, in highered as everywhere. Please LEAD DON’T REACT.

  • danlundquist

    THANK YOU PRES WEISS: “The market is happening to us” is the most realistic acknowledgement that the stewardship paradigm has shifted in highered.  Please LEAD DON’T REACT

  • herter

    You still have not answered the question.   Saying that employers prefer state school grads (liberal arts majors anyone?) is not the same thing as supplying employment data on the specific schools in question, or other liberal arts colleges.   You’re basically saying that all the graduates of liberal arts colleges are unemployed.  That’s patently absurd.  You’re also making gross assumptions that unpaid internships last forever and do not lead to higher wage and more prestigious jobs.  That’s also absurd.  For that matter, not everyone who works for an NGO or non-profit is unpaid.  Adjuncting also has nothing to do with the the employment prospects of graduates of liberal arts colleges.  

    As for Wesleyan’s ranking, yes, #45 is damn good given that there are thousands of colleges in the US.  Even more important, if you go to Wes you come out with far more than the ability to get a job. 

    For the record, I went to a state school.  Even with that education I still got the joke in the blog, but I don’t think you did.

  • bscmath78

    herter, well, since I answered several posts ago, “herter, you are right that I didn’t answer your particular question, I answered with data I was aware of that seemed related to your question. 

    Often with such studies the participants are hidden . . .”

    I am surprised at your expectations.

    You wrote most recently, “You still have not answered the question,” yes, that is true, I didn’t claim otherwise.  I am just providing the data I am aware of that relates to the question and that is at least suggestive of some issues.

    You also wrote, “You’re basically saying that all the graduates of liberal arts colleges are unemployed.  That’s patently absurd.”  No, that is not true, I referenced the work of others and in the case of the WSJ I made reference to the results of their survey of the ranks by corporate recruiters, to support the view that some employers have such preferences and their reasons.  I also indicated some of the problems with obtaining full and complete and non-misleading employment data (an issue that comes up with law schools).  

    You wrote, “Adjuncting also has nothing to do with the the employment prospects of graduates of liberal arts colleges.”  I have seen repeated references in the CHE to the plight of adjuncts, especially Humanities adjuncts.  Of course, they have graduate degrees but they had to get an undergrad degree somewhere. There is also the repeated claim that undergrads who fail to find meaningful employment consider going to grad or professional school.

    I was more impressed by the Colorado School of Mines at #20.

    If you have certified and audited “gainful employment” data for each of the colleges you referenced then please post the URL. As I read in articles in the CHE the accuracy of employment information is much questioned, especially for law schools. I got the impression that a judge dismissed a lawsuit because it was unreasonable to rely on data provided by a law school.

  • bscmath78

    herter, I wrote in my original post, “Arum and Roksa’s second report illustrates the lack of added value of SAT and High Selectivity college.

    ‘Less Selective’ colleges have the highest full-time employment rate
    with only a slightly lower full-time employment income than the ‘Highly
    Selective’ colleges!  $32,419 vs $32,740 so less than a 1% discount on
    ‘Highly Selective’!”

    Yet somehow, you wrote, “You’re basically saying that all the graduates of
    liberal arts colleges are unemployed.  That’s patently absurd.” This seems a very peculiar claim, clearly refuted.

    As I noted in a subsequent post, the colleges involved in the Arum and Roska were not revealed (or at least not known to me, plus the data is based on their small sample of students).  There often seems a strategy to hide what institutions are involved in such studies or even if some are listed (see my earlier post on the 2011 paper by Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger), the specific results by college are not revealed.