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Climate Thuggery

July 29, 2011, 10:04 am

Is anthropogenic global warming (AGW) a valid scientific theory?  Is it well supported by the empirical data or is it mostly an artifact of computer modeling?  I don’t have answers to these questions.  I stand, rather, on the side of those who favor rigorous scientific inquiry, transparency, and openness.  I am not a climate scientist, but neither do I cede the whole matter of answering such questions to the designated experts.  Good science doesn’t limit itself to the views of narrow-cast specialists.  Valid observations, corrective criticism, competing hypotheses, and rigorous testing can and often do arise from other sources.

It surprises me, however, that proponents of AGW, or what might be called the climate orthodoxy section of AGW theory, often respond to criticism and dissent with a kind of fury.  Far from welcoming discussion, they seek to suppress it. In doing so they jeopardize both their own authority and the prestige of the scientific community.

A month ago I posted on Innovations a brief item, “Bottling Up Global Warming Skepticism,” about the machinations of one of Professor Michael Mann’s ardent defenders, Dr. John Mashey, who has taken a no-holds-barred approach to silencing Mann’s critics. Mann himself has deployed nuisance lawsuits in a similar fashion. He has sued Tim Ball—a Canadian global-warming skeptic, an environmentalist, and former professor of geography—for libel for writing that Mann “should be in the State Pen, not Penn State,” for his role in Climategate. Mann also threatened a lawsuit against Minnesotans for Global Warming for a satiric YouTube video titled “Hide the Decline.” (YouTube suppressed the original video. There is now a “Hide the Decline II.”)

The tactic of suing critics of AGW theory to silence them isn’t Mann’s alone, and it isn’t the only extracurricular means the global warmists use in attempts to shut up dissenters. The BBC recently announced that in an effort to be more attuned to the scientific “consensus,” it would no longer strive to provide balanced coverage of climate issues. Its decision followed a report by the BBC Trust, “Review of impartiality and accuracy of the BBC’s coverage of science.” In 2007, Weather Channel meteorologist Dr. Heidi Cullen seemed to call for the firing of meteorologists who expressed doubt about AGW. She later clarified to The New York Times that “I didn’t exactly say that. I was talking about the American Meteorological Society’s seal of approval. I was saying the A.M.S. should test applicants on climate change as part of their certification process. They test on other aspects of weather science.” In 2009, Environmental Protection Agency economist Alan Carlin was subjected to a gag order by an EPA administrator after submitting a report that was critical of the role of CO2 in recent global warming.

The techniques vary. The results, however, are similar: What cannot be established by transparent science can be imposed by coercion and intimidation.

John Mashey, who was the subject of my initial criticism, exercised his right to post replies on Innovations and elsewhere to my initial article.  He is welcome to express his opinions, but the pretense that he is defending science or academic due process wears thin. His replies posted to The Chronicle and elsewhere come in the company of some very irate people. Many of them seem to think that only those who accept the premises of their own sectarian version of climate modeling have a right to speak in this debate. Anyone else is fair game for—what shall I call it?  It goes well beyond scolding.

For example, one of Mashey and Mann’s supporters has made it her business to contact by telephone and e-mail NAS trustees, members, employees, and others with leading questions about my views on climate change and sustainability.  Her questions have insinuated that two former employees of NAS who died in 1995 were murdered, perhaps at the behest of Richard Mellon Scaife! (As it happened both died of heart attacks; and both had suffered previous heart attacks.)  This woman has similarly attacked other people and organizations that express views on climate change that she disagrees with.

Her targets have sometimes spoken up, but as far as I can tell she is accepted by AGW proponents as a welcome contributor to the effort.

Let me go back to what started all this.  On June 30, I wrote:

Science reports that retired computer scientist Dr. John Mashey is attempting to patch the tattered reputation of “hide the decline” Michael Mann, the climate scientist whose famous “hockey stick” chart shows exponentially increasing global temperatures in the near term. Mashey has been, as he puts it, “trying to take the offense” against global warming skeptics by flyspecking their publications. “You hope they make a mistake,” he says, and when they do, he pounces with demands that journals retract whole articles. Some journals indeed have. As Science puts it, “His critics say Mashey is more interested in destroying his foes than in debating the issues.” Professor Mann is extolling his efforts at “exploring the underbelly of climate denial.”

The issue of Science I referred to is Vol. 332, No, 6035, 10 June 2011, pp. 1250-1251.

The only mentions of Michael Mann in my article are in the two sentences quoted above.  This provoked not only the long string of mostly hostile comments (over 60) on the original article but also threads of vehement commentary on other sites.  Since I had said next to nothing about Mann himself, his scientific contributions, or the controversies surrounding him, it was up to those posting comments to focus their anger by inventing through creative inference things that I did not say.

Thus, for example, several respondents introduced the idea that I had somehow endorsed the behavior of a George Mason University economist and statistician, Edward Wegman, who was forced to retract a 2008 paper critical of Mann that he had published in the journal Computational Statistics & Data Analysis after Mashey published a 250-page online analysis of it identifying “portions of other authors’ writings” in Wegman’s article “without sufficient attribution.”  Wegman defends himself as “innocently unaware” that a George Mason student had cut and pasted the paragraphs that he included in the report.  George Mason University is investigating whether Wegman is guilty of plagiarism.

I, of course, said nothing about Wegman.  I don’t know his work.

Rhetorical excess seems endemic to these defenders of Mannian climate orthodoxy.  Scott A. Mandia declares in all caps, “DR. MANN’S WORK HAS BEEN VERIFIED BY MANY OTHER SCIENTISTS,” and that to doubt the hockey stick graph is “to also believe in magic.”  Naumer and Mandia are among several correspondents who posted repeated declarations, in a crescendo of agitation.  Mostly they seemed to want to drag me into a discussion of the scientific details.  That wasn’t my topic and I declined, which brought out still more Mann enthusiasts.  Ted Kirkpatrick observes “Dr. Mann’s reputation is extremely good, as his fellow climate scientists regard both him and his work highly.”

Mann’s reputation is “good?”  Well, indeed, after Climategate, Mann’s work was subject to a series of extraordinary committee reviews—three that I know of.  In each case, the committee found no particular fault with his work.  I pass no judgment on those committees and I don’t presume to know Mann’s work well enough to venture an independent assessment of the quality of his science.  But to rest the case, as Kirkpatrick does, on what “his fellow climate scientists” think is a doubtful proposition.  I know of several climate scientists (e.g., Will Happer, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, Stan Trimble) who certainly don’t join in that endorsement, and some in the academy and among the general public judge Mann’s scientific contributions as suspect and his behavior as deplorable.

The hardball approach of his defenders is in large part a reflex of this loss of prestige and authority.  The proponents of AGW, however, have chosen a very foolish tactic.  Bullying skeptics and sneering at those who raise questions is no way to regain public trust.

The sharp practices of the warmists also damage the tenor of academic, scientific, and public debate.  Frivolous lawsuits, intimidation, mobbing are not the flying buttresses of modern science.  They are the rot that undermines the intellectual authority of science.  Can you trust anything said by someone who engages in such tactics?

This warning can be turned against some of the global warming skeptics as well.  There is, for example, a blogger who writes as “The Hockey Schtick” who refers to Mann’s 1998 article in Nature (which introduced the hockey stick graph) as “the most thoroughly  discredited paper of the modern age.”  Rhetorical excess for rhetorical excess.   Some of Mann’s defenders, however, much as they preen themselves as defenders of scientific rigor, are skating in the same rink.

The science will, in due course, be sorted out.   Shoddy hypotheses will be discarded.  Data massaged to accommodate models will prove discrepant with better observations.  It could be that anthropogenic global warming will win out as a valid theory; it could be otherwise.  I’m not taking sides on the science.  But when it comes to efforts to silence debate and intimidate critics, I very much take the side of those who want to see science rid of such mischief.

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  • drchu

    In the subject matter courses perhaps, but often general education at a for-profit is simply remedial education in disguise.

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    Peter writes: “Frivolous lawsuits, intimidation, mobbing are not the flying buttresses of modern science.  They are the rot that undermines the intellectual authority of science.  Can you trust anything said by someone who engages in such tactics?”

    I could not agree with you more.  Can you please send this to Competitive Enterprise Institute’s Chris Horner, Virginia AG Cuccinelli, Rep. Barton, Sen. Inhofe, Forbes bloggers such as Larry Bell and Heartland Institute’s James Taylor, S. Fred Singer, Koch brothers, Marc Morano, Christopher Monckton, etc., etc., etc.

    I find it absurd that you chastise a few scientists for actually having the courage to fight back against the personal attacks that they have endured for years while not making it your business to expose those in the list above who have been doing so for years.  Have you read Merchants of Doubt by Oreskes and Conway?  What about Raymond Bradley’s newest book, Global Warming and Political Intimidation, How Politicians Cracked Down on Scientists as the Earth Heated Up?

    Practice what you preach.

  • http://twitter.com/TenneyNaumer TenneyNaumer

    John Mashey does not silence Dr. Mann’s faux critics — he merely exposes them for the low-life scum that they are.  You also fall into that camp.  You write here the most amazing bunch of lies.  I still don’t understand why the Chronicle permits you to post your slander here. I’d really like an answer to that one.  Everyone knows what you are.

  • Carolinaguitarman

    “I know of several climate scientists (e.g., Will Happer, Richard Lindzen, Fred Singer, Stan Trimble)…”

    Happer was not a climate scientist, nor is Trimble.  So the two actual climate scientists you have who have problems with Mann’s overall work are Lindzen and Singer.  That’s some duo.

  • Carolinaguitarman

    “The tactic of suing critics of AGW theory to silence them isn’t Mann’s alone…”

    He sued Ball because Ball insinuated Mann broke the law and committed fraud, which there is absolutely no evidence of.  Ball should know about suing people, because that is just what HE did when someone pointed out the many inconsistencies between Ball’s claims and the facts.  He quickly dropped the suit, however, after his lies were listed in great detail:
    http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/Johnson%20statement%20of%20defence.pdf

  • _perplexed_

    “It surprises me, however, that proponents of AGW, or what might be called the climate orthodoxy section of AGW theory, often respond to criticism and dissent with a kind of fury.”

    How can you be “surprised?”  Reasoned criticisms deserve reasoned responses, but the attacks on climate scientists published in the popular press over the past 20 years have had their own kind of fury.  See http://www.aip.org/history/climate/public2.htm#M_122_  for overview and citations to specifics.

  • arthurpsmith

    Mr. Wood, you complain of “rhetorical excess”? Welcome to the internet!

    You complain about climate activists (it is rarely the highly published scientists who participate at all in public debate):
     ”Far from welcoming discussion, they seek to suppress it.”
    and yet provide no examples of actual “discussion” as I would recognize it that has in any way been suppressed. Far from being suppressed, climate “skeptics” find a welcome home on talk radio, in TV programs, in newspapers and even on respectable websites like this one around the world, far out of proportion to their numbers. I listen to and read to some of these presentations, and every one is as filled with false claims and errors on the science as your posts on the subject have been.

    Every recent study of actual publishing climate scientists find the vast majority – 97% or more – agree that humans are causing global warming. And yet somehow we find “balance” everywhere – sometimes 3 to 1 in favor of skeptics (Wall Street Journal) sometimes 3 to 1 the other way (Washington Post) but only rarely (perhaps now finally with the BBC) is the skeptic side presented as the actual fringe belief it is. This is suppressed “discussion”?

    What is suppressed in the popular media is any substantive effort to check the facts and the science. I strongly recommend you look through the AIP Climate history website http://www.aip.org/history/climate/summary.htm

    What you will find is, first of all, the basic physics has been roughly understood for well over 100 years. Our planet’s temperature is governed by a balance between incoming energy from the Sun and reflected and radiated energy from the planet. Changing the atmospheric composition (by adding greenhouse gases) changes that radiated energy, and calculations unequivocally show that adding CO2 reduces outgoing energy, leading to warming. There is no scientific question on that point.

    By the 1970s the theory was already good enough to lead to rough estimates of the warming to be expected, and *depiste the fact that temperatures were cooling at that time*, scientists started predicting warming.

    The 1980s were warmer than the 1970s. Just as predicted. The 1990s were warmer than the 1980s. The first decade of this century was warmer than every preceding decade in the records we have. 2010 tied for the warmest year ever in almost all the current observational records. And 2011, despite a cooling El Nino, is already warmer than almost every year prior to 2000.

    The theory is clear; it made predictions of warming; the warming has happened. What more proof do you need that we have a problem here? Will 2012 breaking every record convince you? What will?

    By the way, I read the entire discussion thread on your last post at the time, and found your lack of response to pointed comments, particularly on the Wegman plagiarism issue, astounding. Your commentary here on that subject suggests several levels of hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance. You might want to spend a bit more time reading and thinking before posting again on this subject, if you want to be taken for some sort of scholar.

  • whitakal

    What happens in the heads of these commentators in between reading Wood’s post and writing their comments? Wood asks for reasoned argument. Period. In response … he’s called “scum,” scolded (“Practice what you preach”), derided (“Some duo” and “How can you be ‘surprised’?”), and analyzed (“hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance”). And, if past performance is indicative, I’m sure there’s much more to come. Why does a call for reasoned argument about AGW provoke such unreason? It’s not like Wood’s asking for a reasoned debate about eating babies or having sex with your mother. The fervor seems positively religious: a global contest of good (environmentalists) and evil (Right-wing capitalists), destiny (every decade will get warmer), and salvation through redemption (the Green economy) and sacrifice (Kyoto, cap-and-trade, etc.). If this is science, why all the madness?

    Keith Whitaker, http://www.wisecounselresearch.org

  • arthurpsmith

    Thanks for adding to the reasoned discussion by raising the important baby-eating analogy.

    Have you no comment on the actual substantive points that I and others have raised here? Where is the suppressed discussion that Woods claims and complains of? I see skeptic commentary everywhere I look! And yet, the science is very, very clear. Is this sort of denial of reality what scholars should be about?

  • whitakal

    Sorry, baby-eating was an oblique reference to Swift’s Modest Proposal, an original source document for understanding sustainability. I forgot the comment-space on anything AGW is a humor-free zone. Regarding skepticism, perhaps it’s where you’ve been looking that’s the issue? The AIP site you and _perplexed_ cite, in its exhausting history of GW, does note that various “Right-wing” groups have publicly doubted AGW , but then it goes on to say quite clearly that the “mainstream media” has largely trumpeted AGW claims since the 1980s. I suspect it is the weakening of that support, in the face of the recent scandals, that has stimulated this furor. But as I half-humorously tried to suggest, I think the nerve goes deeper than that.

  • cocotartufo

    Whitikal,   Climate scientists have suffered a great deal of intimidation over the years and, until recently, have just borne it.  The supposed controversy you point out is ironically just another example in a long list of such examples of bullying – one that has had strong negative effects on the health of at least one climate scientist, while having no bearing on the evidence for climate change. 

    Mann was attacked legally and defamed many times before fighting back himself – and he did so not to squelch information, but to correct depictions of himself and his actions that were libelous.  He is entirely within his rights to defend himself, as is any citizen.

    Peter Wood sounds like a bully complaining about being bullied.  It’s hypocritical.  People have a right to get angry.  Of course, that may be what he wants.  It diverts attention from the facts, which still overwhelmingly indicate a human influence on climate.

  • 11122741

    predictions are not always proof of a particularly theory as most well-trained theoretician known and the history of science is strewn with examples of this point that are documented in the work of Kuhn, Lakatos and numerous others.  It would seem that Arthur P Smith might be wise  to review some of the basics about theory and that confirmation alone is not proof and read Lakatos on falsification and the need of failure to falsified for proof.  Not understanding these basic of science and proof says a great deal about the alleged theory and proof and particularly the absence of falsification studies and works. This kind of wild shooting from the hip is what Dr. Wood is talking about.  One needs to recognize poor or weak theory and poor or weak proof before one starts drawing conclusions or criticizing the criticism of others.  The absence of falsification studies is the point that needs to be addressed.

  • whitakal

    In response to cocotartufo, I’m intrigued by your suggestion for a new sort of scientific riposte: “You be quiet because you hurt my feelings!” To be fair, it does seem to work at recess. Perhaps treating AGW skeptics as hate-criminals could spare future scientists the negative health consequences you cite? Regarding the supposed “right to get angry,” I’d suggest you take a look at the thoughtful monograph, “Bee in the Mouth: Anger in America Now” (http://www.amazon.com/Bee-Mouth-Anger-America-Now/dp/1594030537). Not much in there about GW, I believe, but lots that shine a light on the roots of this supposedly scientific debate.

    Keith Whitaker, http://www.wisecounselresearch.org

  • bookbinder

    I’m not a climate scientist, but I have been following as much of this controversy as my stomach can take, and Dr. Whitaker’s note is about as stomach-turning as anything I’ve seen.

    cocotartufo can respond better than I, but may appreciate knowing that some readers understand that Prof. Mann did not merely have his feelings hurt by the big bad global warming skeptics: he was subjected to multiple inquiries by commissions empanelled in response to skeptics, and has been the focus of legal actions by the attorney general of Virginia to find any tiny particle of evidence that he might have mis-used public funds when he was on the faculty at U-Va.  Anyone who has been the victim of these kinds of legalistic trolling knows what a drain on time and energy they can be – it’s not merely insulting, but a major distraction from real work. And even Peter Wood here acknowledges that Prof. Mann was exonerated by the British inquiries – though he phrases Prof. Mann’s innocence and finding of competence in such a backhanded way that I am surprised that he didn’t add that Prof. Mann has not yet been found guilty of child abuse.

  • megginson

    Rather than having yet another long discussion about bad people instead of bad science, if we really want to decide the actual underlying question driving all of this, that is, whether the science on AGW is solid, wouldn’t it be better to do the following? It’s an important enough matter to deserve our educating ourselves by doing some reading of the actual science, through popular works and even some of the more accessible works in the scientific literature; they’re out there. But I’d suggest that we should keep the following in mind:

    1. Though on opposite sides of the issue, Richard Lindzen and Michael Mann both have the scientific credentials and experience in the field to claim expertise in the area. When people publish works in this arena from which we draw our conclusions, it is fair to look at whether the authors have such expertise, or have at least relied on scientists who do have such expertise. It’s an important thing to check. Mr. Wood clearly takes Richard Lindzen seriously, and that’s fair. Mr. Wood also mentions that he does not “cede the whole matter of answering such questions to the designated experts”, but ultimately people who do not understand the science are not good places to look for the answers (nor does Mr. Wood say that they are).

    2. When people cite sources for claims in this arena, it is important to do at least some citation checking to see whether, as sometimes happens, the references come to the opposite conclusions from the ones claimed, or for that matter are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

    3. When people make public attacks on assertions by “the other side” in this arena, it is good to consult some source on common logical fallacies, such as cherry-picking data, to see whether the arguments are sound or relevant.

    Finally, if it appears that I am picking on one side or the other with the suggestions made above, it would be good to examine why one would believe that, and which of the points one would find objectionable.

  • cocotartufo

    Oh my Whitakal.  
     
    I say “Peter is being hypocritical here,” and you suggest that I think we should “treat AGW skeptics like hate criminals.”  (For someone apparently concerned with the anger in discourse, that raises the stake’s in the debate quite a bit, no!)  Of course what I was actually suggesting is that Dr Mann and other climate scientists are within their rights to use the same legal mechanims as have been used against them to seek redress for defamation and material damages.  If skeptics can rocket through random collection of hacked climate scientist emails in an attempt to mine quotes, why has not Mashey the right to engage in detailed audits of skeptical literature that are in the public domain?  Peter’s argument really does seem equivalent to “you be quiet because you hurt my feelings.”
     
    All that aside, all I was really arguing is that Peter misses the point entirely.  In the end, the material evidence is all that matters, and that evidence clearly indicates a human impact on climate.  No reputable scientific society disputes this.  You can go to their websites (NAS, RAS, AGU, APS…) and find statements summarizing the evidence.  They are often written in clear lay terms.  It is telling that you can count on one hand the climate scientists (Wood lists virtually all of them) who are critical of this consensus.
     
    The rest is noise to which Peter Woods contributes.  By suggesting that climate scientists and others initiated law suits to squelch debate on that evidence when they were actually defending themselves against aggressive attempts to quiet them, he makes a (deliberately) provocative argument bound to generate the very kinds of discourse he claims to despise.  It distracts from the real debate.  I think deliberately so…but that’s my opinion.

  • arthurpsmith

    “Proof” is a matter of logic or mathematics, not observational science. But I did not suggest temperatures were proof of the theory of global warming. It rests on extremely solid physical science foundations, just like the theory of gravity, quantum theory; the basic theory involved is thermodynamics and radiative physics, both of which have literally millions of confirmatory experiments that have been conducted over the past century or so. No observations of Earth’s weather could disprove any of that.

    But the question I asked was, is the combination of a prediction made in the 1970s, confirmed by observations in every decade since, and by repeatedly more and more detailed calculations in the intervening decades, not sufficient proof ****that we have a problem**** – a problem that is indeed worthy of some alarm?

    To claim that this is insufficient to prove we should consider this a problem requires you to have some extremely firm a priori reason to believe that no problem such as global warming could ever occur, or some source of strong inference that vastly overwhelms the combination of physical theory and observational evidence i’ve mentioned. Where can such reasoning or inference come from? Peter Wood has certainly presented nothing of this sort here or in his previous post.

    Maybe the scientists are wrong. They seem very certain. Are you really willing to risk the consequences that have been predicted on the chance that all this is some sort of hoax?

  • willismg

    I would also, like my numerical colleague above, be welcome to certain other types of studies.  As it stands, as far as I can see, we have actual data (thermometer readings) dating back only a hundred and fifty years or so and we are trying to predict changes that truly only occur over geological timescales. 

    I find it hard to believe that any meaningful information gleaned from all the data from ice cores, etc., can be applied to any specific short time period like the era since the onset of widespread fossil fuel consumption by man.  Therefore, due to what I believe to be the overriding probability of implicit time smoothing in such ancient data sources, I feel it is more than proper to ignore them in this regard, or at the very least treat them with a high degree of skepticism.

    Once this data is taken off the table, I find it hard to draw any meaningful conclusions about whether the current variability in global temperatures is a new effect brought on by man or simply a normal random variation that is masked in the more ancient data.  Until somebody can give me an indication that they can break out more resolution from the ice cores, etc., than I’ve heard about, I’m afraid I must declare that I’m undecided about the ’cause” of global warming.  I don’t believe this makes me a climate Luddite, but rather a suitably skeptical science type who insists that proper process be followed.

    To me, this is merely basic skepticism that all good scientists have had beaten into them over the last several hundred years of one misguided reading of “data” after another.  As Feynmann pointed out, the easiest person to fool is yourself.

  • JohnMashey

    This is usually called “argument from incredulity” (from lack of knowledge), but lack of knowledge can be cured.

    A good book to study is Ray Bradley’s classic “Paleoclimatology – Reconstructing CLimates of the Quaternary”, 2nd Ed, (1999).

    That’s the one that Wegman&co plagiarized and sometimes distorted, see http://www.desmogblog.com/wegman-report-not-just-plagiarism-misrepresentation

    Also, try attending the next AGU meeting (San Francisco):
    http://sites.agu.org/fallmeeting

    Sessions GC47, PP06, PP14, PP21, PP22, PP28 might be relevant:
    http://sites.agu.org/fallmeeting/scientific-program/session-search/?type=session&sponsor=&cosponsor=&index_categories=&keywords=reconstruction&include_title=1&include_description=1

    You can see the presentations and even better, you can ask questions and talk to real scientists.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    Dear Mr Wood,
    A wise man once said “better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” I regret to inform you that you have failed this test.

    What is it with the Right treating any and all criticism as an assault on their freedom of speech? One might almost think they don’t actually support free speech when it conflicts with the interests of their puppet masters. Mr Wood might do well to remember a basic rule any 6 year old understands: “don’t dish it out if you can’t take it”.

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    willismg,

    There are no known natural causes of the warming pattern that we are seeing but these patterns match very well with GHG forcing.  That CO2 is causing the planet to warm is unequivocal. 

    For an example, look to the new normals for the US that I blogged about here.
    http://profmandia.wordpress.com/

    The physics of increasing heat-trapping gases tells us:
    1) We will experience more heat waves and these heat waves will become even hotter
    2) Higher latitudes (toward the poles) will warm the most while lower latitudes (tropics) will warm less
    3) Interior continental locations will warm more than coastal regions
    4) Winters will warm faster than summers
    5) Nights will warm faster than days

    Recently, NOAA (2011) issued the latest 30 year climate normals for the United States, and as expected, points #2, 3, 4, and 5 are evidenced in the data and heat waves are occurring more often and have been more severe here and abroad.

    Scientists are not trying to project what will happen on geological time scales.  The projections are for the decades ahead.  When one is projecting on that time scale, some of the “natural” climate forcings that caused past climate to change quite a lot are not in play.  (Milankovic cycles)

    The planet is gaining heat and that has been clearly measured. Simply put, more heat is coming in or less heat is going out. It must be one or the other.  (See: http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warming/modern_day_climate_change.html)

    CO2 increases neatly fit that heat gain.  To paraphrase Dr. John Powell:

    If increases in CO2 are not causing modern day global warming then two things must be true:

    1)  Something unknown is suppressing the well-understood greenhouse effect (and doing so during massive increases in greenhouse gases).
    2) Something unknown is causing the warming that mirrors the greenhouse effect.

    So we can accept what we know to be true (AGW) or we accept two unknowns.

    The null hypothesis is now that CO2 and other heat-trapping gases are causing the climate to warm.  You need to prove why it is not and must do so using a physical basis.

    It is not just scientists who are concerned.  Military and intelligence experts warn that climate-induced crises could topple governments, feed terrorist movements or destabilize entire regions. Health officials warn us that climate change could be the biggest global health threat of the 21st century. Climate change was recently listed as the greatest strategic risk currently facing the property/casualty insurance industry.

    We need to reduce our emissions of carbon for the sake of our public health, national security, and economic competitiveness. Surely it is foolish to base our economic energy needs on sources that are dwindling in supply and increasing in price when, instead, we could move toward energy efficiency and cheaper-by-the-year, infinite sources such as the sun and wind. If we stay addicted to fossil fuels and do not begin investing in those technologies now, we will be buying them from China in the future instead of selling it to them.

    Let us move the discussion to effective ways to decrease our GHG emissions and how doing so can be fiscally responsible.  Essentially, let us admit we have a problem and that we neeed help.

  • bpconrad

    I read this piece thinking the discussion would be about how when Milly Dowler’s voicemail was hacked, the result was to investigate the thugs who hacked it, while when the East Anglia emails were hacked the result was to investigate the victims, ant to call it Climategate. Who are the thugs here, anyway?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    It’s disappointing that – despite requests that he do so – Dr. Wood has chosen not to enlighten his readers about the nature of the climate science expertise that is informing his views.
    See The Stone, on the relevance of expertise:
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/on-experts-and-global-warming

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    Dr. Wood, my understanding from reading the National Assocation of Scholars’ Form 990s and from doing some internet research is that your group’s major source of revenue is disappearing – that most of your organization’s funding has flowed from a Department of Education grant program (Teaching American History) that is now winding down.
    Is this information correct?

  • betterschool

    Peter, There are times that I do question your sanity. This is one of them. What would possess you to offer in this forum a dispassionate call for rational inquiry on a topic dominated by child-like yet mean-spirited minds? Perhaps your intention is to illuminate the depths to which the bar of admissions to academia has sunk. A good percent of the comments here border on stupid (sorry, that seems like the best term). I am embarrassed to read these comments and think that they may have been made, first, by colleagues and, second, by people who are teaching our students how to reason. (By the way, my money is on some yet to be fully refined model in which AGW plays a significant role. This is unrelated to you point, of course.)

  • betterschool

    Of what relevance is NAS funding to this discussion?

  • betterschool

    “Thugs” in this context are those who impede fully rational inquiry, whatever “side” of the issue they happen to be on. A real scientist isn’t on a “side” unless you define arriving at the most robust (generative, etc.) explanatory models as a “side.”

  • betterschool

    Have someone help you understand that Mr. Wood has taken no particular side on the climate science debate. I think he is saying that excessive and inappropriate passion on this issue is impeding good science.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    Dr. Wood, has the National Association of Scholars been looking into new funding opportunities, since its biggest revenue source is declining and may soon disappear altogether?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    “Betterschool”,  good science is offered by Scott Mandia in an earlier comment; please read it – I see you haven’t responded to that one - and encourage Dr. Wood to do likewise.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    I hope all contributors bemoaning mischief afflicting good science – and anyone remaining above the fray & not taking sides on whether the earth is round or flat – will attend to Scott Mandia’s earlier comment on this post.
    Thank you Scott.

  • JohnMashey

    [I'm mostly finishing off one of my typically-detailed 25+-page reports originating from "Bottling Skepticism...", as usual, it takes longer to debunk errors, dog-whisttles and false associations than write them in the first place. Keep an eye out for "Bottling Nonsene ..." over at DeSmogBlog. ]

    For climate science, there are two sides.  One is real science.
    The other is anti-science, whose machinery is array of thinktanks, front groups, astroturfers and sometimes groups started for other purposes, but co-opted, possibly like NAS. The primary funders are ExxonMobil and a  small group of wealthy, conservative family foundations. My analyses of all this were among the reasons Science ran that profile on me in June.

    When there is  major change in behavior in some nonprofit entity, it often pays to “follow the money,” starting with viewable 990 forms for the funded entity:
    http://www.eri-nonprofit-salaries.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NPO.Summary&EIN=112741490&Cobrandid=0
    [NAS's 990s often restate earlier years, are sometimes inconsistent with the funders' 990s, generating negative numbers in odd places.  In many ways, they do not much resemble typical academic associations, but looks more like an entrepreneurial effort by a few people with changing missions and murky governance.  Generally, more than 50% of the salaries and benefits have gone to the top 2 people, either Balch and Wilson, or Balch and Wood.  That may be fine, but it is interesting.]

    It is also worth checking MMAN for funders:
    http://mediamattersaction.org/transparency/organization/National_Association_of_Scholars/funders
    Voila! Funders I’ve seen before, see pp.93-95 of PDF attached to:
    http://www.desmogblog.com/crescendo-climategate-cacophony (CCC)

    However, MMAN sometimes misses things (scanning 990 forms is tedious), so one should go to the 990s for those funders and look, which I’ve done.

    The bottom line is:
    1) Membership dues have been slowly declining, actually, from $132K in 2002 to $79K in 2009, even though they opened it to non-academics.  Either they have been losign members, or members have been retiring, so $42/yr becomes $22/yr.

    2) Having studied many such entities, they often get core, sustaining funding, enough for a few people, from a few family foundations.  Then, they have to build membership, get donations, find other funding sources.  Every year, they have to tell their funders what they did, and whether funders give explicit directions or not, astute non-profits figure out what sells.  It is efficiently designed for leverage., and various entities must compete for funds.

    3) From the beginning, the primary core funder of NAS has been Richard Mellon Scaife, via the Sarah Scaife Foundation, whose holdings are diversified, but in 2008, 25% were in oil and tobacco stocks.  Oddly, most of the oil investment was in EM, not the Chevron that Scaife inherited (via Gulf – Texaco – Chevron).

    The next core funder was L&H Bradley Foundation, followed by some others.

    4) Scaife and L&H Bradley have long been the key funders of the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) and The George Marshall Institute (GMI), whose history is well-described in Orekses and Conway, Merchants of Doubt, 2010. Since 2006, the Chairman of GMI has been Will Happer of Princeton University, who  is *not* a climate scientist, but an atomic physicist.  To Peter Wood, there may not be much difference, but then Wood appeared to take the Viscount Monckton seriously, notign his wry speech:
    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/tyranny-or-theft-part-1/29661

    Sadly, his post failed to mention Monckton’s use of swastikas and fascist labels:
    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/06/monckton_says_that_if_you_acce.php
    and he seemed quite comfortable in that conference.  Hopfeully, NAS members are pleased to pay for him to fly out to Los Angeles to be on panels with Monckton, Steve Milloy, etc.

    5) Scaife funds many entities that attack climate science in general, the hockey stick, and specifically Michel Mann – see pp.93-95 of CCC for the Scaife related foundations, and especially look at Commonwealth, AIA, and AIM, for example.

    However, CEI and GMI were the two thinktanks that really organized the extra-science attack on the hockey stick and Mann (CCC, starting with GCSCT1998)
    http://deepclimate.org/2010/09/26/strange-scholarship-wegman-report/ pp.25-32.

    As shown on CCC p.93, Scaife was the biggest funder of CEI, with Bradley #2, and they reversed positions for GMI, with help from the usual others.

    6) So, NAS has declining membership dues, and it looks like a major source is drying up, but Wood joins, and by 2009,  starts a  set of attacks on the climate science and sustainability, echoing the more well-established entities in this turf, albeit with less competence.   Still, maybe it opens new funding possibilities.  Those of us who have seen this before … have seen it before,often.

  • trendisnotdestiny

    Do not mean to make things too simple here, but why don’t we all just meet in Montana at Glacier National Park.  That way we can see the effects of forty years of AGW in person.  We can see pictures of guests in the 1950′s, we can see decreased habitats for wildlife and we can experience the temperature increases at different points in the park over time….   If anyone would like to join me, I hear August is a good time to go…..  Detractors have some splaining to do 

  • duppy_conqueror

    It’s interesting to me how this debate has influenced our language in a short time, the term “warmist” in particular. Although it is perfectly descriptive to me, I take it that it is not the term a “warmist” would use to describe themselves, perhaps opting for “climate activist” or “AGW proponent”. Do you warmists have anything as pithy to describe your opponents? (preferably not ending in “-hole” ;)

    Hoping to stay far from the slung mud as possible, but just FYI, I keep my carbon footprint to tiny infant size, just in case it matters. Also cheaper that way.

    A Lukewarmist

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    “Denialist”, “Inactivist”, and “Adullamite” (for the classically minded) have all been heard.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    You think whining about being asked to show your sources, and casting unfounded aspersions on the honesty and integrity of scientists about whose work you know nothing, constitutes “a dispassionate call for rational inquiry”?

    I do hope you are emeritus, as I shudder to think of the kind of “rational inquiry” you would teach students. 

  • R117532

    1. “. . . proponents of AGW, or what might be called the climate orthodoxy section of AGW theory, often respond to criticism and dissent with a kind of fury. Far from welcoming discussion, they seek to suppress it. In doing so they jeopardize both their own authority and the prestige of the scientific community.”

    It seems that the majority of the comments herein support your assertion. Some of these folks are scary.

    2. “. . . The science will . . . be sorted out . . . It could be that anthropogenic global warming will win out as a valid theory; it could be otherwise. I’m not taking sides on the science. But when it comes to efforts to silence debate and intimidate critics, I very much take the side of those who want to see science rid of such mischief.”

    This would seem to be the point of your blog. It is an indictment of many in the “climate community” (whatever that means) that your blog was the lightning rod it is.

    Had you blogged structurally identical comments in my scientific communities, you would have received a hearty “ho hum” and a reminder that you were preaching to the choir. Of course most scientific disciplines have not been hijacked by medieval religious practices. I suspect the same is true of the real scientists in this discipline.

  • R117532

    As others have pointed out and can easily be understood from the text, this blog is not about climate science. It is a critical observation on the dangers of mixing science, politics, and religion. The example is climate science because, Mr. Wood claims, some individuals who occupy roles as scientists (i.e., they are committed to adhering to the applicable canons of reasoning, etc.) have forsaken those honorable roles and behaved as politicians, zealots, and ardent believers in a cause. None of these dispositions are compatible with scientific inquiry and are, in fact, damaging to the process which, in turn, leads to unsound findings. 

    I would remind many of you that the validity of a scientific finding rests solely on the methods by which the finding was derived. Attempting to do good science while in the grips of any political ideology is always bad science the findings of which are untrustworthy.

    P.S. I can’t see how ‘betterschool’ or Mr. Wood has created any obligation to respond to an issues pertaining to scientific content. All have been quite specific that their point goes to contamination of scientific process and that they take no stand on the findings themselves. I’m in that camp as well. However, I know bad science when I see it and, judging from the comments of the “scientists” in this track, this is really bad science.

  • R117532

    Question: “For climate science, there are two sides.  One is real science. The other is anti-science, whose machinery is array of thinktanks, front groups, astroturfers and sometimes groups started for other purposes, but co-opted, possibly like NAS. ”

    Are you saying that the “real science” side is of a single mind with respect to (a) empirical findings, (b) explanatory models (including causal chains for which suitable derived or natural controls necessary to valid inferences) , and (c) generalizations? Are you also saying that there are no scientifically reasonable competing theories? If you are asserting the affirmative on all of these issues, that is indeed an unusual occurrence in scientific disciplines. Can you tell me in broad terms how much of the variance is accounted for by this grand explanatory model and the validity coefficients. I would be concerned about the latter because, in my limited understanding, we lack the cyclical data necessary to robust prediction as a statistical matter (one of my scientific disciplines).

    These are real questions. I am not a climate scientist. One of my specialties is complex methodologies and statistical models to support them. When I take this understanding to what little I know about climate science, I find it difficult to see how it is that good science can produce high confidence models at this point. I’m happy to be wrong on scientific and logical grounds but I don’t care one whit about the politics and I deeply mistrust anyone who does care ardently and yet claims to be a scientist. These people are unconsciously cooking their research.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    With the possible exception of evolutionary biology and pollution-centric epidemiology, most scientific disciplines have not been subjected to 19 years of sustained political attack from vested interests. I will be charitable and assume that you are naive rather than disingenuous in not recognising how this alters the meaning of pieces like Mr Woods.

  • willismg

    Hi, and thank you for your response.  What I’m trying to get across is that this whole topic, and the vast majority of “information” spewed forth in the comments (excepting yours and a very few others) reminds me of an argument I once had with one of my Quantum Mechanics profs in grad school.

    One day he dramatically proclaimed “And if not for the Pauli Exclusion Principle, the world as we know it would not exist!”  His error, to my mind, and the error being made in a lot of what passes for science these days is that the actual situation is that “If not for the Pauli Exclusion Principle, Quantum Mechanics, as we know it, would not exist.”

    People seem to forget that when they create a computer model, it only gives them exactly what they tell it.  The world, and its condition, care not one jot or tittle for our pronouncements.  While it is indeed true that computer modelling can be a very useful for performing variational studies, using it to “decide” on the validity of any specific model is beyond its proper use, and quite frankly, I would say almost ridiculous.

    The creator of the computer model almost always start from some more or less sound set of equations, but then they pretty much invariably get into some mathematical corner where they find the need to make “The Assumption”.  This assumption, even in the best situations is always made so as to make the model coincide with current data, as best as can.  However, there is no denying that it is a bandaid.  And bandaids are not the same as natural skin.

    As somebody below says very well, yet another of my numerical colleagues, the injection of politics and an almost religious fervor by those on both sides of this issue leads to very bad science.  Models are not nature.  Nature is doing what it’s doing.  Even our best sets of equations are not nature.  When one removes them further from nature by trying to code them up with all the restrictions that that entails, we must be VERY careful at trying to avoid overplaying what we think these models are telling us.

    The overall feeling I get is that science has fallen into an era where the models, rather than nature, are being used as a path to understanding.  And I simply feel that we have lost something in the bargain… something crucial.

  • willismg

    Thank you, thank you, thank you.  In the world that I come from also would this be seen as little more than somebody reminding everybody of what everybody already knows about how they should be doing their jobs…

  • willismg

    The only people that I see doing any attacking are those on the AGW side.  I’m not trying to say I agree with either, because I realize that my opinion is irrelevant.  In fact, all of our opinions are irrelevant.  The world is doing exactly what it does.  To try to assert detailed knowledge of this area at this stage of the game seems more like “little knowledge being dangerous” than anything else.  The religion-ification and personalization of the arguments are not consistent with what I consider to be a sincere search for an understanding of nature.

  • willismg

    The problem has never been “Is it warmer now than in 1950″.  That is something that is easy to document, if one merely take the time to do so.  The question is “So what?” in the sense that how do we know if your presumed cause (AGW) is responsible. 

    I could just as easily invite everybody to the empty Catholic churches (compared to 1950-60) and say “See what those damned pedophile priests did?”

    Yes, it’s true that church congregations have shrunk AND that there was a period where the actions of some few priests and there misguided superiors were indeed horrible.  But to my mind, there are much more direct causes for the drop in church attendance.  Chief among these might be the passing of the baby boom from church-going children of the so-called “Greatest Generation” to self-acting (and self-absorbed?) adults who not only choose not to attend church, but then also do not insist on their children going.

     

  • JohnMashey

    R117532: I’ve got to go out, so I’ve only got a few minutes, but I’ll be back for more later today.
    I of course made no claim that all of climate science is of a single mind on everything, but as in any real observational science, various degrees of uncertainty are attached to various ideas, hypotheses, theories. Real scientists have strong agreement on {it is getting warmer, humans are doing it (via CO2/CH4/land-use), it will keep getting warmer, enough so to cause serious problems, over whose degree we have some choice}.  As usual, scientists argue fiercely about uncertainty bounds, seek to reduce them, etc.  Some things, (like CO2 direct effects) are very well understood – Arrhenius got a pretty good estimate with paper and pencil over a century ago.  There is still much work needed on clouds and some other feedback effects, but saying that we know nothing becuase we don’t know everything … is ideology, not science.

    There are no scientifically reasonable competing theories, due to what is sometimes called the gremlin/leprechaun effect:

    a) First, to produce the observed warming (but claim it is not anthropogenic), you need to invoke something like solar changes, or cosmic rays, etc … and well-measured solar data shows the sun hasn’t been changing enough, and Svensmark keeps trying to make it be cosmic rays, but keeps lacking mechanisms. Conservation of Energy rules, (unlike say, in stock market or financial statistics) and there is no such thing as “recovery from the LIA”.
    See http://www.skepticalscience.com/fixednum.php
    #1 It’s the Sun
    #2 Climate has changed before
    #14 it’s cosmic rays
    #21 It’s a 1500-year cycle
    (and many more are listed)

    If you’d like to learn enough to have an informed opinion, try joining AGU for a year (cheap) and especially, attend the AGU Fall meeting, Dec 5-9 in the usual place:
    http://sites.agu.org/fallmeeting/
    You can hear good talks, ask questions, talk informally with climate researchers, walk around, look at posters and see what people actually do.  For contrast, you can attend the next Heartland meeting.  After that pair, you can decide which side does science and which does politics.

    Anyway, to produce the observed changes without anthropogenic CO2 (and CH4 and land-use/soot), one needs magic gremlins to pump energy into the Earth/atmosphere system, (as seen best in Ocean Heat Content), because the other explanations just do not do it. 

    b) But worse, one needs leprechauns to nullify well-understood physics of greenhouse gasses.
    to make that happen, one has to undo quantum mechanics, at least the part from which CO2/CH4 absorption/emission spectra are derived.

    I do not know from which domain your statistics background comes, but you should be aware that people with technical experience quite often over-generalize their own without understanding a domain to which they attempt to compare.  That’s:
    http://i46.tinypic.com/204j13.jpg   TEC8

    I discussed this issue at length:
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/simple-question-simple-answer-no/#comment-97878

    But  for now:
    please read Kerry Emmanuel’s eloquent piece:
    http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?doc_id=1444

  • R117532

    Thank you for responding to these questions. It has been on my list to become informed at a deeper level and I will do so. As a philosopher of science and methodologist may I share a few observations from outside the tent:

    - Historically, periods during which we had no robust competing theories have not been times in which substantial scientific progress was made. Were I you, I would be concerned about that.

    - It is important to distinguish confidence levels and the means by which they were obtained for each facet of the inquiry. For example, (a) it is getting warmer, net (b) the most robust general explanation is that human activity plays some role in the fact that is is getting warmer (how much), (c) a warming climate will cause specific changes on the surface of the earth (ice caps, etc.), (d) these specific changes will have specific economic, political, and other consequences. In considering these four generalizations, the following seems clear based even on my limited knowledge: (a) the precision of the generalizations declines sharply from ‘a’ to ‘d’, (b) the socio-political concerns rest on the generalizations associated largely but not exclusively to the ‘d’ generalization, the one in which we have the least confidence, perhaps so little that it is not provably above chance level, and (c) we have a poor track record of projecting downstream economic, social and political consequences, bad enough that reasonable people might feel that we should not be basing future policy decisions on the consequences of twice-compounded ripple effects.

    - The rational portions of the debate here represent what we call evaluation science (invented by Scriven in the last century, it is not an applied version of basic science; it has distinctive canons of reasoning). In evaluation science, one of the largest questions is always, “compared to what?” Thus, the burden that change advocates must assume is demonstrating clearly that the costs (all forms) of reducing the human contribution to global warming (however much the scientists and politicians think it can actually be reduced) are outweighed by the benefits. Again, the coefficients of confidence for each component must be applied to each cost and benefit figure before performing the various ROI calculations. I ask you: Has the AGU community conducted these kinds of analyses broadly and in a rigorous way or is there tacit faith that global warming is bad for reasons which lack rigorous proofs but seem sensible? 

    - Put differently, how certain are you that “we” will not look back on this issue of global warming 100 years hence, jokingly commenting on how silly we all were to worry about climate changes that have been so beneficial for societies across the globe? I’m not putting that idea forth. I am saying that the question goes to the kinds of analysis that truly objective scientists force themselves to perform *before* they move from scientific observations to social prescriptions.

    I hope this does not make you think I am anti-AGW. I am not. As I said earlier, I am already in this camp, just not fully informed. I am critical of the underlying logical processes I am seeing, including those exemplified here by some individuals. Good policy is informed by good science. Good science is informed by good logic.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    Readers, if you’re short on time, read the comments by johnmashey (on how funding drives anti-science), Scott A. Mandia, and arthurpsmith; these are their real names.
     
    Commenters, keep in mind there’s an effort afoot to troll for outraged reactions.
     (and if they’re not outrageous enough, to pad by mischaracterizing emailed queries as insinuations and attacks.  It would seem that material being collected to sway elderly donors doesn’t have to be accurate, just effective.)
    Discussion here: http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/07/peter_wood.php

  • EliRabett

     Since we know that atoms would not exist in the absence of the Pauli Exclusion Principle, pray tell why you think the world would??  This is not politics, but your essay is a good indication of why discussion with the ignorant is a waste of time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anna-Haynes/1186871204 Anna Haynes

    johnmashey’s comment answers this question.

  • Guest

    Very classy. You must be a delightful husband and father at the dinner table each night.

  • willismg

    Atoms exist.  Quantum mechanics is merely a construct created by humans in our never ending attempt to understand the natural world.  History is replete with iterations of ever less stupid attempts at explaining nature by humans.  I put QM and the Pauli Exclusion Principle as merely one more step on that journey.  Atoms existed before the statement of the Pauli Exclusion principle, and I trust they will continue to exist long after quantum mechanics goes the way of the four elements.

    Nature has a funny way of rubbing our faces in our self-assuredness.

  • peterwwood

    I am not sure it is worth the time it will take to type this, but as John Mashey, Anna Haynes, and a few others seem to think that the finances of the National Association of Scholars are somehow relevant to my call to rise above nuisance lawsuits and rhetorical thuggery to advance claims made in the name of science, let me clarify.  Neither the National Association of Scholars not I have received any funding whatsoever from the energy industry or other “interest groups” that might have a material stake in the debate over the theory of anthropogenic global warming or proposed remedies to global warming.   Some individual contributors to NAS may have investments in the energy industry.  That’s something I’ve never checked and is in no way relevant to NAS’s mission or activities.  NAS became involved in critiquing the sustainability movement in the Spring of 2008 as a follow-up to our critique of a highly-politicized mandatory dorm-based program at the University of Delaware, in which the term “sustainability” was used to encompass efforts to force students to adopt “progressive” views of race, sexuality, and a grab bag of other topics that had no obvious connection to the environment.  I have simply followed the thread from that point–without the help of institutional grants or indeed the prospect of any. 

    This put me into the subject well before the scandal broke involving the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia (November 2009).  My focus has never been on climate science per se.  But NAS has from its founding 24 years ago focused on issues of scientific integrity, the dangers of politicization in higher education, the rise of illiberal ideologies, and the need for transparency in the academy.  The sustainability movement addresses some important themes and involves some wholesome work; but the movement also has excesses and some currents that run against the spirit of well-grounded liberal education.  My focus has been to present a critique of those excesses. 

    There is much to be said about the sustainability movement that touches lightly or not at all on AGW, but AGW does sometimes come into the picture and I have no intention of ignoring it when it proves relevant to the larger questions of how we conduct scientific debate and how we strive to maintain the integrity of the university. 

    The attacks of people such as John Mashey and Anna Haynes underscore the point.  There is, in my view,  something scurrilous about their efforts to portray the NAS (and/or me) as putting forward a public critique of what I’ve called “climate thuggery” out of a search for new sources of  financial support.  It is true that the Department of Education’S teaching AmericAN History program (for which NAS has been a summer contractor–teaching history seminars to higher school history teachers) is winding down.  NAS will lose income from that source, and I trust we will find income from other sources–mainly individual contributors–to replace it.  It is entirely typical of how Mashey and Haynes operate that they seize this circumstance in an attempt to weave a conspiracy theory about NAS’s and my motives.

    NAS and I stand for what we stand for on the basis of our best judgment of what needs to be said.  No one has paid us or other wise induced us to take any position on AGW.  It speaks to the character of our accusers that they launch this attack without a shred of evidence. 

    Peter Wood

  • R117532

    I have read all the 990′s and, having read 100′s of similar ones, I see nothing of particular interest in those of NAS. What was your point? John Mashey seems to want to criticize NAS simply because it exists and has funders whose reputations he tries to besmirch. NAS appears to be a very, very small organization having financial struggles common to their type. NO one is getting rich. I know very few 501′s that have not had significant funding challenges during the recession, a highly relevant fact that you failed to mention, again placing your cause over the larger causes of truth and objectivity. You won’t want to hear this, especially coming from someone largely on the side of the science that to which you are faithful in an unscientific manner, but you and a few other here share commonalities with Joe McCarthy. You might want to examine your values and methods. Doing what you believe to be good in a mean-spirited and evil way may not end up all that good, on many levels.

  • arthurpsmith

    Thanks for this clarification. Can you be slightly more complete in your disavowal, though? You state “no one has paid us or other wise induced us to take any position on AGW”.

    Why did you limit this to “AGW”? Have you ever been paid or induced to take a position on any subject? Scaife and L&H Bradley’s ties to other institutes that have been part of the clear anti-science agenda on this subject is definitely very troubling, if they are indeed your major funding sources. That link is far more than a “shred of evidence” in this case, there is a very long history there.

    I would also like to hear a direct clarification from you on what your intended target of this column was. The only actual climate scientist among those you accuse of “thuggery” is Michael Mann. Do you believe any other actual climate scientists have engaged in such behavior? Please name names! There is a handy list here ordered by number of citations:

    http://www.eecg.utoronto.ca/~prall/climate/climate_authors_table_by_clim.html

    Do you accuse all these people (all highlighted in green have signed statements, and so are “proponents’ in some sense)? Or are you making broad generalized accusations here without a “shred of evidence” against 99.9+% of these people?

  • JohnMashey

    Again, argument from incredulity is not really very useful.

    Do you have the {physics, math, climate science, relevant computing} background to spend hours with modeling folks from NCAR, GFDL, NASA, etc discussing the models, what they do and don’t do, where the limits are {data, science, or compute power}? etc, etc.  Ever do that?

    If you do, then you likely already know most of:
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/11/faq-on-climate-models/
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/01/faq-on-climate-models-part-ii

    But I suspect most readers here may not, and those two FAQs are fairly concise introductions.

    As I mentioned before, people experienced in simulations in one domain often over-generalize its issues into other domains  … and write total nonsense with complete certainty.  See:
    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/09/simple-question-simple-answer-no/#comment-97878
    A well-educated biochemist was convinced that climate models couldn’t be useful, but it it finally took someone familiar with *both* climate models and protein-folding to help him understand how different they were.  That helped highlight the *different* over-generalizations common to various disciplines.

    Perhaps, if you would describe the sorts of simulations and models in your experience, I might be able to offer appropriate analogies.

    Finally, for anyone who wants to learn about the modeling turf in general, I recommend a 1993 book that is still great, “Supercomputing and the Transformation of Science,” by William J. Kaufmann III and Larry Smarr. It’s beautifully illustrated and well-written, bu does take some technical background.  Computers are a lot faster now, but many of the issues are the same.

  • electronicmuse

    Bully, bully for the “bullies.”

    Could it be that the lawsuits deemed “frivolous” are due to scurrilous personal attacks, e.g. “State pen versus Penn State,” and so forth?

    That we’re warming up “locally” in terms of geologic time is without cavil-we have those data. The theory of AGW has terrific face validity. Should we “wait and see,” as “non-belivers” would have it? I think not. Too much at stake. Take vigorous action. Too much money from fossil fuel burners motivates too many who have “faith” that AGW isn’t happening. “Drill, baby drill” might turn into “kill, baby kill.”

    We have energy options. We should develop them.

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    Wood: “The science will, in due course, be sorted out.   Shoddy hypotheses will be discarded.  Data massaged to accommodate models will prove discrepant with better observations.  It could be that anthropogenic global warming will win out as a valid theory; it could be otherwise.  I’m not taking sides on the science.  But when it comes to efforts to silence debate and intimidate critics, I very much take the side of those who want to see science rid of such mischief.”

    Peter, the above statement by you shows that you are writing about a subject you know little about.  A dangerous path for a “scholar”.  The cause of modern warming was sorted out years ago (it is AGW) and it is only because of the efforts to silence this science and intimidate its scientists by fossil-fuel funded think tanks that do no research that people such as yourself are so confused. 

    The debate now is how much warmer will it get and how bad will it be.  Unfortunately, the carbon path we are on assures global disaster unless we rapidly change that path.  Write about THAT and you will have a healthy and fair debate.

    Do yourself a huge favor and study up before you post again.  The Earth is round whether you are a liberal or a conservative.

  • nuffsed

    TenneyNaumer,
    Your comments justify the piece’s title.

  • cocotartufo

    R117532

    In climate science, the impact of CO2 on radiative balance is not under challenge because it’s empirically described.  To challenge it, you’d have to unmake over a century of measurements by claiming they were some figment of the mass imagination.  Climate scientists have moved on to other problems because they have reached concensus on that issue.  Would you say physics should be concerned because there is no challenging theory to the “law” of gravity?   

    With regard to your climate science statements a-d) in your first paragraph, when stated qualitatively as you have done, there is actually very little chance of any of those statements being incorrect given what we know scientifically.  The remaining problems are really ones of degree — how much warmer will it get and how fast?  How strongly does it depend on our actions? How quickly will ice caps melt and sea-level rise?  How will species be affected? Those issues are what science is mostly about these days.  Answering these questions – putting bounds on responses – requires integrating a wide range of science and is a significant challenge.

    Re cost benefit analyses — the IPCC engaged in quite a few of these in working group III.  They informed by scientists in AGU (and other societies), but not performed by them.  They incorporate climate and sociological uncertainty in cost-benefit outcomes.  It’s important to realize that uncertainty cuts both ways.  Things might not be as bad as the middle of the road viewpoint presented by the IPCC.  But there is a signfiicant chance they could be much worse.  We cannot constraint the worst case scenarios as well as the best case scenarios. 

    IMO. You can immediately tell someone who has lost objectivity in the climate debate when they equate scientific uncertainty with low cost.  Such a position presumes that the scientific position is “alarmist.”

  • periniuf

    One post noted that the physics of global warming are well proven over the past 100 years, the inference being that the global warming processes and conclusions therefrom are inarguable.  Inconveniently, NASA has reported its 2000-2011 tempurature results and a paper is in the Journal “Remote Sensing” http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/3/8/1603/pdf  Unfortunately, the climate models have missed the boat about the importance of CO2 and of course that is the main leg of the anthropormorphic warming theory.

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    It was not NASA.  NASA data was used.

    Read the paper.  It shows no such conclusions and Spencer’s simple model did not include the effect of El Ninos and La Ninas for determining model accuracy and also only used ten years of data.  Ten years cannot be used to show climate sensitivity and Spencer should know that ten years is not enough to lift the climate signal from the weather noise.  Surprised he does not know that.  My freshman non-science majors even get this point.

    Forbes and Fox were very good at hyping the story even though it was clear the sound bites were not supported by the actual results of the paper.

  • ztztzt

    Bradley copied large portions of his ‘classic’ from a text book by Fritts, from 1971!  see:
    http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/20/bradley-copies-fritts-2/
    http://climateaudit.org/2010/10/18/bradley-copies-fritts/
    (Bradley’s minor contribution being to suppress knowledge of CO2 affecting growth, in order to focus on temperature as the cause of tree ring width variation – increasing the alarmist narrative)

  • megginson

    “[T]he injection of politics and an almost religious fervor by those on both sides of this issue leads to very bad science.” Well said, and absolutely right. But concerning computer models, one might consider some criticisms of them by an unlikely source, and the source’s further comments on why his criticism is valid but not relevant to a discussion of the proposition that anthropogenic climate change is happening and is dangerous:

    “Thirty years [after Jule Charney used climate models to estimate climate sensitivity for doubled CO2 and could only state that it is probably between 1.5 and 4.5 degrees Celsius], models alone still cannot do much better. Here is another killer: Even as our understanding of some feedbacks improves, we don’t know what we don’t know—there may be other feedbacks. Climate sensitivity will never be defined accurately by models.”

    The author of the remarks, and some related ones in the same publication about the danger of reliance on models in this arena, is not Richard Lindzen or Fred Singer. It’s James Hansen, and the quote above is taken from p. 44 of his book “Storms of My Grandchildren”.

    The very next sentence is, “Fortunately, Earth’s history allows precise evaluation of climate sensitivity without using climate models.” Hansen’s point, also made in other places in the book, is that beating up on climate models to try to discredit anthropogenic climate change is a straw man argument. Without ever running a computer model, we can get a good idea of how much trouble we are in with the CO2 we are dumping into the atmosphere just by looking at Earth’s history as shown in paleoclimate data, by knowledge of simple physical properties of greenhouse gases that have been understood for well over a century, and by noting the observational fact that we are dumping a bunch of one of those gases into the atmosphere and the temperature is rising in a pattern that agrees pretty well with theoretical predictions. (Physicist and science historian Spencer Weart’s famous quote is relevant here: “The physics of the greenhouse effect is so basic that instead of asking whether it would happen, it makes more sense to ask what on earth could make it not happen.”)

    Climate modelers would love to be able to project better the precise effect of our continued use of the atmosphere as a dumping ground for CO2, but they cannot yet do that. The wide ranges given in the IPCC reports testify to that, and the dependence on scenarios shows the additional problem that accurate model projections also require us to be able to predict future human behavior, a notoriously difficult proposition. Similarly, I doubt that anyone has a good model to predict very well how many of the five passengers in a fully loaded standard passenger car will survive a head-on forty mile per hour collision. There are many variables that would need to be considered, some of which may not yet be well understood. But the inaccuracy of such models doesn’t mean we don’t know that such crashes are dangerous; as with climate change, there is also all that historical data and the physics that tells us in general terms what we can expect. And with climate change, we’d better start thinking about fastening our seat belts, rather than just hoping that a crash might not be all that bad because models can’t yet predict just how devastating it would be.

  • nampman

    Merchants of Doubt exposes the tactics used by some “pro-business” groups to intimidate scientists whose results might cost them money.

  • cwm4c

    If you read the article critically, Peter neither endorses nor denounces AGW.  His point on preferring science to courts and the press are to be encouraged by all of us.  I know the chorus will bring in other articles, but on this one alone, none of us should have an issue–regardless of where you fall in the AGW camps–that is irrelevant.

  • cwm4c

    Both sides consult Physicists and Geologists–please don’t disparage these fields as having nothing to contribute to this debate unless you belong to them?

  • cwm4c

    As someone posted above–Physicists and Gelogists don’t count in this discussion, so why should your PhD in Religion? (Sarcasm intended)  This henpecking is silly–everyone has some input here, including those that want the temperature drop from 1998-2010 explained beyond the Chinese increase in pollution (which was predicted in the 70s to have the opposite effect), and including those with mountains of proof of ocean temperature increases to know why this is not better known!

  • cwm4c

    Scott Mandia’s reply, like yours, is irrelevant to the original article and betterschool’s reply.  It doesn’t matter who’s correct–the bashing by each side must stop and does impede Science.  It is also why we cannot get the public to trust us!

  • megginson

    Good point, bpconrad. The original Watergate scandal came about from a group of thugs who planned and executed a break-in so that they’d get access to an organization’s private communications. Given that, calling the East Anglia hack Climategate is exactly right, but it’s surprising how many people seem to be missing the irony.

  • dank48

    I think it was Freeman Dyson who first pointed out that some believers in AGW have let it turn into a secular religion. Quite a few of the comments demonstrate this; they’re fully as bigoted as any zealot who sees every doubt, every question, every difference of opinion, as evidence of heresy.

    And of course, since heretics are always wrong, they can be shut up without qualms. I don’t know the science well enough to be so sure of myself, but I know a lynch mob when I see it.

  • betterschool

    Accurate and pithy. The irony is that these zealots are likely correct on most counts except their assessment of what the real downstream effects are likely to be. Their religious like commitment to the idea that all changes accrue to the negative is not supported by any science I can see. I can see the concern but not the conclusions.

  • cocotartufo

    Betterschool

    The science is not affected by excessive and inappropriate passion.  At least, I don’t see it when I go to meetings or edit papers.  If that Peter’s point, I don’t know why he is making it.    Where the debate does receive inappropriate passion is in the public and political domain. That has nothing to do with good science.  Moreover, I think those excesses would be there regardless of how scientists responded to them. 

    That’s because the ire almost solely originates from those who are uncomfortable with the implications of the consensus for policy for whatever reason, and so decide to refuse to accept the basic science.  The CRU email hack is simply the most elaborate case of PR warfare related to this effirt.  Watching Monckton put up swastikas and claim that the IPCC is some world government conspiracy during his speaking tours is another example.  That rhetorica from the critics has raised the tone to debate to scary levels.  Recently, several climate scientists in Australia, none of whom are particularly visible, have received death threats during the debate on the carbon tax. 

    To pin the tone of this debate on climate scientists and Mashey, as Peter does, just doesn’t bear up to scrutiny.  They are responding to an already existing climate intended to intimidate.  To argue further that climate scientists simply roll over when their integrity is not only questioned, but subjected to legal action, is very dangerous for free speech and rational discussion.  It essentially argues that they shouldn’t be concerned about distortions of their work in public or in front of congress.  That’s a default form of censorship.

    What Peter is arguing for just isn’t realistic.  It would remove science from virtually any serious policy debate that people care about.  I don’t see anything good coming from that.

  • betterschool

    I can take your point that the real scientists aren’t behaving as we see here. If true, I am comforted by the fact. I speculated (somewhere in here) that this may be the case.

    We might leave the topic by noting that your supporters (if you are one of the scientists) are not advancing your search for truth. They are detracting from it with their boorish behavior. 

    Let me ask for your insight, if you will, on another commenter’s point. R117532 wondered if there is a declining order of confidence in these generalizations. The only answer he got was from a zealot. I have attached pseudo confidence estimated to R117532′s taxonomy and would like to get your thinking:

     (a) it is getting warmer, net: — 100% confidence.

     (b) the most robust general explanation is that human activity plays some role in the fact that is is getting warmer (how much):  – 100% confidence.

     (b1) we can do anything about it on a large scale — ?? confidence.

    (c) a warming climate will cause fully knowable, specific changes on the surface of the earth (ice caps, etc.):  – 75% confidence (we know some, intelligently guess others, speculate without foundation on still others).

    (d) these specific changes will have specific economic, political, and other consequences (all of which will be so negative that we need to act decisively, no matter what it costs, to modulate the changes downward:  – chance level confidence.

    Point ‘d’ is where the religion and bad behavior dominate; i.e., at the presuppositional level, driving these zealots into an irrational frenzy.

    Is it not equally likely, based on current scientific evidence (not a social belief that we shouldn’t dump CO2)  that net good will come from global warming? Yes, the earth will rearrange, as it has in the past. Do you know for certain that these rearrangements will be wholly undesirable over the next 200 years? How certain?

  • Bogs_Dollocks

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (and especially his government grant funding) depends upon his not understanding it.

    ~ Upton Sinclair (updated)

  • JonasN

    Scott AM, I have several problems with your statements:

    1)  I have a hard time seeing what you object to in your citation.
    2) You seem to want to draw extraordinary conclusions about Peter W’s knowledge of the matter (unless you are only nitpicking semantics?).

    3) You are definitely wrong on the attribution part. The IPCC-side hypothesized (~5 years ago) that half the warming the last half century ‘very likely’ was due to emmisions of anthropogenic GHG:s. And where the ascertion of certainty (ie 90% likely) in it self was merily a speculation among the ‘political experts’. There exist no scientific foundation for such a claim. Or in more plain language: Its is wrong! Untrue, and knowinly so!

    Since then, both observationsthe and new findings have further weakened the main hypothesis. Which incidentally depended on several ad hoc support hypotheses, and new such (about what nowadays is ‘masking’ the ‘known truth’ in those empirical observations) are still ‘needed’ and presented to keep it from entirely falling apart.

    And I can assure you, fossil fuel funding, conservative think-tanks och tobacco lobby etc, have nothing to do with that. (Why don’t you just refrain from such stupid allegations)

    Now, you may of course (and honestly) believe that the orginal AGW-hypothesis still holds. But in no way can you claim that it is confirmed, nor that there is not ample room for criticism and doubt. And the same is of course true for the gaping holes where it doesn’t offer any qunatitative explaination (eg, the other half of the warming, the cooling from the mid forties, the similar warming between 1910 to ~1945. The lack thereof since more than a decade.

    And repeating the errected ad-hoc support-hypotheses just won’t cut it as ‘settled science’. Sorry!

    Further:

    4) You make quite wild ascertations regarding (assuring!) future global disasters (due to carbon/CO2) which have absolutely no connection to the topic here or anything to do with science. (But give a good indication about how seriously you need to be taken, in adition to your fossil-funding ranting, even flat-earth)

    And true to your agenda you write and confirm exactly what is Peter W’s issue here. You demand:

    ‘Write about the forthcoming disasters, or shut up!’

    And this based on factual arguments that don’t hold water almost anywhere …

  • http://twitter.com/hengistmcstone Hengist McStone

    This article refers to Will Happer as a climate scientist.  Could somebody please point me to some support for that, like a paper on climate published by Dr Happer. His bio on the GWPF page doesnt claim he is a climate scientist. http://thegwpf.org/who-we-are/academic-advisory-council.html

  • josh coray

    You can not dismiss observational science. “Proof” of the mathematics only works when it matches the observed results. If the ‘proof’ doesn’t match observations it is a falsified theory. To prove all theories, such as gravity, the math had to match the observations. I am not sure what logic you use to come to that conclusion, but there are few comments that could be more wrong.

    Also, remember the predictions for the 1970′s: they thought the world was cooling, it was our fault, we were all going to die because of it, and we needed a big panel and geo-engineering to solve it. See, we were in a period of cooling from the 1950′s till then, from a period of warming in the 1930′s till the 1950′s. THEN there was warming in the 1980′s that was of course our fault, we were all going to die because of it, and we needed a big panels and goverment taxation to solve it.  

    We have always had a problem, it has always been our fault, the scientists have always agreed, and the solution is of course, going to cost us. And every few decades: switch, rinse, repeat. :P

  • peterwwood

    Dear Scott A Mandia,

    I see that JonasN below has posted an answer which covers most of what need be said.  I have not posed as an expert in climate science, but I possess sufficient scientific literacy to view your statement that “the cause of modern warming was sorted out years ago (it is AGW)” as evidence that you can’t be taken very seriously.  The cause(s) of modern global warming are the subject of competing hypotheses none of which has been validated with anything like a high degree of certainty.  CO2 is a greenhoue gas, but the effects of human contributions of CO2 to the atmosphere remain very difficult to pin down.  How you arrive at your certainty about AGW and why you imagine that you speak for science in general remains a bit of a mystery, but I’m happy to leave it as just that.  You are far from alone in attempting to silence debate by assuming a mantle of authority you manifestly don’t own.  This is an arresting phenomenon:  dogmatists defending dogma in the name of science.  I still put my confidence in the capacity of scientists over the long haul to ask the right questions, elicit the right data, and frame hypotheses that hold up under rigorous and repeated testing.  

    Peter Wood

  • peterwwood

    Arthurpsmith asks me, “Have you ever been paid or induced to take a position on any subject?”  No.

    But since, Mr. Smith, you appear to be among those who like to split hairs, I was a proferssor of anthropology for many years, and I was induced by my university that paid my salary to teach courses in anthropology.  I have similarly held other professional positions that entail carrying out professional responsibilities in exchange for a salary. But no individual or foundation has ever offered me money or any other form of compensation to espouse a particular view.  I have met with officials of Scaife and Bradley foundations on various occasions and not once received the slightest hint that I or NAS should strike a particular position on some issue.  Foundations such as these support NAS because they recognize the value of our general mission and our success in accomplishing that mission. 

    As for “thuggery,” I deliberately did not name individuals, trusting that they would line up to present themselves in the comments section, as indeed they have.

    Peter Wood

  • dank48

    I agree. It’s clear that, whatever the truth of the matter may be, it’s not a trivial matter by any stretch of the imagination. It’s hard work, trying to keep an open mind, and it does at least afford some understanding of people who just can’t quite do so. I wish I had a better grasp of the math and science, but there it is.

    However, the very importance of the subject seems to me to have led some down the same path that jurors have been known to tread: “It’s a heinous crime, so he must be guilty” seems to me not greatly different from “It’s the future of the planet, so we must be right.” The significance of the question does not determine the truth or falsity of an answer.

  • arthurpsmith

    Mr. Wood – not a single one of the commenters here, including myself, is on the list of published climate scientists I posted in my comment above. All commenters here, as far as I can tell from their names (some obviously are pseudonyms) are not doing any actual research in climate science.

    And yet you and your supporters seem to think that what is said by people in comments on a blog has some bearing on the character and motivations of active research scientists. Why? I find that logical leap very hard to fathom.

    But I do want to ask you whether we on the other side here can similarly take the words of those who support your position here as representing your own thinking? Do you endorse the words of R117532, cwm4c, nuffsed and the others? By your logic it seems their words ought to indict everyone from yourself to Scaife and friends.The reality of the science is extremely solid, but your commenters here don’t want to discuss the science, and you claim no expertise. So you are discussing – what exactly? Comments by anonymous, pseudonymous, or essentially unknown persons on blogs? Have you ever dropped by DailyKos or RedState? You call these comments “thuggery”?????

  • http://twitter.com/hengistmcstone Hengist McStone

    Nor does his Princeton homepage.  I don’t doubt that Happer is a clever guy. But this is the first Ive heard him described as a climate scientist. Peter Wood’s article is long on rhetoric and short on supportable facts.  http://www.princeton.edu/physics/people/faculty/william-happer/

  • JohnMashey

    cwm4c: Dr Wood compared climate science/AGW/me to Barnum and Latour, and that is perfectly consistent with his various posts at NAS, a list of which I noted  elsewhere.
    Dr. Wood lauds Viscount Monckton and appears on panels with him, neglecting to mentions the swastikas.  You may have missed all this, but I suggest you go back and read the various NAS articles over the last 2 years.  If it looks like a duck…

    NAS appears to be in decline, at least 2002-2009, where membership revenues were down by 40%.  Most of NAS revenue in last few years has come from TAH, i.e., Bush-admin program for teaching American history in high schools.  It is not instantly obvious how that fits NAS’s mission statement.

    Not being an academic, I am neither a member of NAS nor FIRE, but the latter sure looks to be focused on the same issues as NAS claims to be, has many of the same funders, but does not seem to have the anti-science bent.emerging in NAS.  [I don't care if conservative foundations openly fund conservative political causes, I do care when they fund campaigns to attack science and scientists, and my studies of such are why I happened to get profiled in Science. ]

    Wood applauded Cuccinelli’s assault on U VA and Mann, FIRE defended them.

    Finally, again, if you take Wood’s opinions on this topic as meaningful, please reread NAS member Kerry Emmanuel (a well-published and well-respected climate researcher):
    http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?doc_id=1444

    (Back late tonite, hard to keep up.)

  • arthurpsmith

    Since one of the commenters approvingly quoted from conclusions of the IPCC, it’s worth looking at what they actually said. This was back in 2007, prepared over years up to that point, before we had the last 4+ years of record-breaking temperatures, sea level rise, ice melt and extreme weather.

    When we’re talking about science, the most important of the IPCC reports is that of Working Group 1, the group that covers the physical science basis – IPCC AR4 WG1 can be downloaded free here: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/contents.html

    Follow the links and you will see each section has a long list of authors, for example Richard Alley followed by many others on the Summary for Policy Makers. I am still not sure whether Peter Wood considers a superb “proponent” like Richard Alley one of the “thugs” he is talking about. Can we be clear on these accusations?

    Note that the exact wording of the SPM was signed off on by representatives from EVERY United Nations Country – including Saudi Arabia and others with a clear interest in downplaying the problem.

    In any case, the very first conclusion in the SPM of IPCC AR4 WG1 is given with “Very High Confidence” (greater than 90% certainty) that: “the global average net effect of human activities since 1750 has been one of warming”.

    The second conclusion is given with what appears to be 100% certainty: “Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, as is now evident from observations of increases in global average air and ocean temperatures, widespread melting of snow and ice, and rising global average sea level”

    I have rarely seen the word “unequivocal” in a scientific publication. Remember this specific word was agreed to by the representatives of every nation. Denying that the climate has warmed is no longer a tenable position for a rational person. And despite claims to the contrary the warming has continued on the exact same trajectory of 0.017 degrees per year over the past decade (after you account for ENSO and related fluctuations about the trend).

    The conclusion highlighted by a previous commenter is there – although that person changed the wording slightly. Please note what it actually says:
    “Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely [over 90% confidence] due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations. … . Discernible human influences now extend to other aspects of climate, including ocean warming, continental-average temperatures, temperature extremes and wind patterns”

    The more important conclusions are, however, about projections for the future:

    “Continued greenhouse gas emissions at or above current rates would cause further warming and induce many changes in the global climate system during the 21st century that would very likely [over 90% confidence] be larger than those observed during the 20th century”

    and the final conclusion – why people who care about our children urge action sooner rather than later:
    “Anthropogenic warming and sea level rise would continue for centuries due to the time scales associated with climate processes and feedbacks, even if greenhouse gas concentrations were to be stabilised.”

    The scientific evidence on the subject has only strengthened since 2007; no contrary claims have withstood close examination. There is *no* competing hypothesis that explains 20th century warming and the continued warming in the first decade of the 21st century. The only reason scientists aren’t closer to 100% confident in this yet is the combined possibility of some unknown cause of recent warming and an unknown suppressor of the CO2 effect, for which many still harbor some residual concern. It’s always possible there’s something we don’t know that could be the real explanation.

    But when scientists are more than 90% confident in these things, where does the certainty of those opposed to action come from?

  • R117532

    arthurpsmith, 

    In the several years that I have participated in CHE forums, I cannot think of another topic in which my position and questions have been more grossly distorted by respondents. You are a minor player in a long list of individuals herein who have attempted to paint me as demonic (or naive, stupid, etc.). 

    In fact, I’m still waiting for an intelligent and objective response to the nature and scope of certainties associated to part ‘d’ of my taxonomy.

    I have no connection with Peter Wood; I don’t know him except through his writings in CHE. I’ll stand behinds my own words and assume that he, as a person who has repeatedly demonstrated open-mindedness and rationality, will do the same. We don’t always agree but we agree on the rules of discourse, including valuing truth more than “being right” at a particular point in time.

    My words for you, arthurpsmith, go to a simple question. How many times and by how many people do you need to be told that this blog is not about the science of global warming. It is about the disposition of various ideologues to demonize and suppress open inquiry and debate. It is about closed minds versus open minds. It is about respectful discourse versus constructing and attacking straw men. 

    Peter Wood focused more on one side of the issue (although he did point out that both polarization are guilty). I also hear of this kind of boorish, unscientific behavior from some right wing talk show hosts and politicians. For them, it appears that the global warming represent an unproven assertion and an attempt by liberals to unfairly legislate social policy. 

    As much as you may think that you, arthurpsmith, are excused from criticism because you may be right about many of your assertions, you are not excused. Bad behavior is bad behavior; the truth of its ideological foundations (shifting sands over centuries, anyway) does not serve to justify it.

  • cocotartufo

    Peter, you are having your cake and eating it too.  You can’t claim not to know enough to be an expert and then state with unqualified certainty that a climate scientist can’t be taken seriously when talking about his own field.  You’re also being vague in your criticism so it is hard to engage your skepticism.

    The argument is simple.  Increasing CO2 increases heat stored in the atmosphere and earth (both theory and paleo evidence), the unique signatures of CO2′s effect on that heat balance have been observed, the increasing CO2 in the atmosphere comes from humans, there is no other source of increasing heat in the earth system that anyone has been able to identify. What element of that do you find so questionable as to doubt Scott’s opinion?

    Why do you simply discount the possibility that strong opinion may be based on actual evidence – much of which can be found in the sites Scott has pointed to?

  • JonasN

    cocotartufo

    So!? You claim the argument is “Increasing CO2 increases heat stored in the atmosphere and earth” or that “the unique signatures of CO2′s effect on that heat balance have been observed”

    May I suggest to you that you first aquaint yourself with how the AGW-hypothesis is formulated, from your side of the fence!? To at least phrase the arguments from there correctly?

    On the other hand, if you truly don’t understand what is objected to and criticized and why, why are then you chipping in on your side? To increase the number of ‘supporting’ views? Do you believe that is a valid argument? (I don’t!)

  • cocotartufo

    Scientists can make a lot more money arguing against climate change than for it – and they can be more famous for arguing against a consensus.  The fact that a consensus has not developed in opposition to climate science (or that a 50-50 split hasn’t developed) is a good indication that money is not playing much of a role in the debate.

    This strikes me as the kind of implict ad hominem that Peter is arguing against, no?

  • cocotartufo

    Pithy or not…you need evidence.  Quotations aside, religious zealotry has no hand in the scientific debate.

  • cocotartufo

    You see, people have hypothesized alternative causes for warming - like the sun, aerosols from volcanoes, release of stored ocean heat, clouds - just as you do for catholic church attendence.  Those ideas (and others) have been tested and found wanting (solar radiation not increasing, increasing heat in oceans, volcanoes still spewing ash).  The predictions based on the effect of increasing CO2 hold up.  The signatures of CO2 on outgoing and downwelling radiation, temporal heating cooling patterns, heating and cooling of the stratosphere/ troposphere all agree.  And we know that CO2 is anthropogenic based on mass balance and isotopes. 

    That’s what climate science spent the last 40 years doing, testing those ideas.  It’s not like scientists just though…what a nice correlation!  You should read Spencer Wearts History of Global Warming, or Archers book on the carbon cycle.

  • http://symbolicalhead.wordpress.com SymbolicalHead

    Just a small point, but incredulity is not the same thing as a “lack of knowledge.”  Incredulity is disbelief.  Ignorance, on the other hand, is a lack of knowledge.  I only bring it up, because “I don’t believe you,” and “I don’t know you,” are not interchangeable statements.  Treating them as if they were does seem rather symbolic of the trust problem that climate science has developed though.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    That’s pretty much what the Catholic Church told Galileo. Don’t try to put your speculations on the orbit of the earth forward as anything other than opinion or assert detailed knowledge of what actually is, God is doing exactly what he does.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    Did you have any point other than to cast aspersions on my family life?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    Clearly Mr Wood’s recent consideration of the role of violent rhetoric in promoting right wing political violence, leading inter alia to Mr Breivik of Norway’s approving citation of the NAS, hasn’t really gone far enough, if he thinks it is acceptable to describe people who attempt to engage him in a spirited online discussion, and ask him to provide some support for his libellous assertions, as “thugs”, who indulge in “coercion” and “intimidation”.

    Let’s recap. Mr Wood launched an attack on the reputation of an eminent scientist in a field in which (he claimed he) knows nothing and is not an expert, (although as of 4 hours ago he suddenly “has enough scientific literacy” to judge competing claims in the field, even though he  has neither qualifications or publications in any area even vaguely related and has made repeated misstatements of the basic facts). 

    Despite repeated requests, he was unable to provide references or facts that supported his contention that Professor Mann’s reputation was “tattered”, or explain his characterisation of Professor Mann as ‘”Hide the decline” Michael Mann’, even though this was not something Professor Mann ever said. All he offered was that we could uncover the evidence “with a few minutes of googling” and that other people (but not Mr Wood?) believe Professor Mann is ”compromised by special pleading and other forms of academic dishonesty”

    To take an example from the humanities, Mr Wood’s field: If a student had handed in an essay which claimed, for example, that Shakespeare’s reputation was “tattered”, supported this with quotes from a play actually by Marlowe which he claimed were Shakespeare’s, and threw in some vague innuendo suggesting a conspiracy to hide the fact that Shakespeare’s plays were really written by Bacon, provided no references, and said, when asked to do so “you can find them with a few minutes of googling”, I wonder what mark Mr Wood and his fellow advocates of high academic standards would give the student.

    Mr Wood also launched an attack on John Mashey for the work Mashey has done uncovering Professor Wegman’s apparent repeated and serial plagiarism. Mysteriously, he was then astounded and indignant when asked why he was supporting Professor Wegman. Uncovering plagiarism is thuggery, says the president of the NAS. Interesting high academic standards there, too.

    Mr Wood now claims that although repeated inquiries and other witch-hunts have failed to uncover any wrongdoing by professor Mann whatsoever, “some in the academy and among the general public judge Mann’s scientific contributions as suspect and his behavior as deplorable.” Again, an interesting academic standard. I believe that in the US,  there are still some in the general public and the academy who think Charles Darwin’s scientific contributions are suspect and his behaviour deplorable. I believe Einstein and Oppenheimer had the odd bit of mud thrown at them as well.

    Is this the standard by which the NAS believes scholars should be judged? By the unattributed, alleged beliefs of “some in the academy and among the general public”? Clearly, judging from the reactions his blog post has started, “some in the academy and among the general public” think Mr Wood’s contribution is suspect and his behaviour deplorable. Would I therefore justified in publishing, in a prominent column on higher education, that Mr Wood’s academic reputation is in tatters? 

    If I did so, Mr Wood would have every right to sue me for the damage to his professional reputation, and indeed in comments on his previous blog post suggested precisely this “This is a near perfect example of academic dishonesty on your part, and probably “slander” in the exact meaning of the term.  You are attributing views to me you know very well I don’t hold in order to damage my reputation” ; yet, mysteriously, when Professor Mann sues those who have not merely sullied his reputation but claimed that he should be in prison, this is “thuggery”.

    Mr Wood is sullying the reputation of the NAS and should withdraw his posts rather than compounding his errors.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    I can’t remember laughing so hard at a climate change article since I started following this amazing story back in 2006.  The unnamed woman who conducted the harassment campaign has to be the memorable Anna Haynes.  At least it has her claw marks, er, fingerprints on it.  Bellatrix Lestrange for those needing an image.  And Tenney!  My goodness, your anger grows each year.  You’ll want to start watching your blood pressure.  Mandia is an obscure junior college teacher and Mashey is an object of ridicule on skeptic blogs.  Arthur Smith actually knows a thing or two but cannot break the embrace of the Dark Side.  Ladies and gentlemen:  your Klimate Keystone Kops! 

    Mr. Wood, these kind of people are responsible for the plummeting belief in man made global warming.  Like a football team squandering a 7 touchdown lead, they have dwindled to just 34% of the American public…

    http://people-press.org/2010/10/27/little-change-in-opinions-about-global-warming/

    It’s sad really.  At one time these people would routinely engage in open forums on the internet.  They have retreated to the heavily censored echo chambers where no future prediction of doom is dismissed and where the most outlandish conspiracies are bandied about.  Occasionally they storm out of their caves to heap punishment on the apostates like your self.  They are clueless as to the harm they do their cause and are comical to watch.  Enjoy!

  • jafco

    Oh shut up Scott.  A real scientist, Albert Einstein, when confronted with the unanimous condemnation of his Special Theory of Relativity by the entire German physics fraternity (at the “urging” of one Mr. A. Hitler), said something to the effect: “If one of them can find something wrong with my theory, then I will be concerned.”  Mann is a cheap shot artist who has been shown – numerous times – to be using wrong data and manipulating data wrongly.  He is an embarrassment to science, but he’s awfully good at hogging at the trough of massive government grants that practically beg him to be a cheat.

  • R117532

    Mr. Smith,

    For the, I don’t know, 23rd time, can you get past the stipulated issue (i.e., that we humans have contributed to global warming) and drop to the bottom line.

    I want to keep this simple and focused because you wander. I’ll state the question three ways:

    1. What scientific evidence is there, agreed upon by a wide range of experts, that warming our globe a few degrees is not a good thing over the next 100 years or so?

    2. What scientific evidence refutes the person who says, “Bring on the CO2. I want it 5 degrees warmer across the globe. The sooner the better!” 

    3. Specifically what horrific outcomes will accrue to global warming and what are the scientific bases for those claims?

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    Do you also think that the link between smoking and lung cancer is up for debate? 

    That AGW is causing most of the modern warming and will continue to dominate that warming if emissions continue is scientifically comparable according to people who actually do the research for a living.

    If increases in CO2 are not causing modern day global warming then two things must be true:

    1) Something unknown is suppressing the well-understood greenhouse effect (and doing so during massive increases in GHGs).

    2) Something unknown is causing the warming that mirrors the GHE. 

    So we can accept what we know to be true (AGW) or we accept two unknowns.

    You cannot just point your finger and say “no, it’s not CO2!”  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and you and Peter Wood just offer rhetoric.

    Seriously, you guys need to read before you post.  I have some fine suggestions here:

    http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warming/suggested_reading_climate_change.html

    Once you know what the science shows, you will be in a better position to discuss what needs to be done to solve the ever-growing problem.  The beauty is that solving the problem will stimulate the economy and just may keep us ahead of China economically.  We are clinging to old tech because we fear change.  Let us not be so fearful.  This is a great nation and we always rise to the challenge.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    Form Bishop Hill’s blog, I believe we now have an appropriate name for the Climate Rapid Response Team:  Conspiracy of Ravens.  I love it.

    http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2011/8/1/a-conspiracy-of-warmists.html

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    I assume as a scholar you enjoy reading.  Please do so:

    http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warming/suggested_reading_climate_change.html

    Start with the first link from the United States National Academy of Sciences.  You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with them and essentially every major scientific body on the planet along with about 98% of the experts who publish in this field.

    I am but a messenger.

    Almost forgot: you must read Spencer Weart’s: The Discovery of Global Warming which details the history of the science and how we got to where we are today. It is available free online:

    http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.htm

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Philip-Nolan/100000149811785 Philip Nolan

    Scott:
    Interesting points all. However, I would be interested in seeing some specific facts and references suppport your claims regarding the tactics used by the deniers you name. I am unaware of the tactics you claim these deniers have used. I know that the Virginia Attorney General Cuccinelli filed suit after Mann and his colleagues refused to comply with a document request. Beyond that, I am not aware of the bases for your assertions.
    I welcome your prompt and informative reply – one that contains facts and references.
    Regards

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=521388513 James Haughton

    So now scientific questions should be settled by opinion polls? Is that the new position of the NAS?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Philip-Nolan/100000149811785 Philip Nolan

    I am likewise perplexed, _perplexed_. I read the article you referenced and there is only one footnote that even comes remotely close to the subject you bring up, and it certainly does not support the thrust of what you claim.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Philip-Nolan/100000149811785 Philip Nolan

    arthurpsmith -

    If you want to see the “suppressed discussion” just read the CRU emails where the “respectable” scientists connive to suppress any and all publications that go against their pet, and as of yet, unproven, theories.

  • JohnMashey

    Facts and references:
    http://www.desmogblog.com/crescendo-climategate-cacophony (185 pages)
    See especially pp.1-34.
    http://deepclimate.org/2010/09/26/strange-scholarship-wegman-report/ (250 pages)

    Good enough for credibility @ Science and Nature.

    Then there is recent statement by AAAS Board:
    http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2011/media/0629board_statement.pdf

    and there was a great session a year and half ago at AAAS:
    http://aaas.confex.com/aaas/2010/webprogram/Session1591.html
    Most of those speakers get or have gotten frequent death threats; we talked about it over lunch.

    .

  • JohnMashey

    No, Climate Review was badly managed, and let Chris de Freitas hold a party for bad papers, 1997-2004.  Otto Kinne named Hans von Storch Ed-in-Chief to fix the problem, but von Storch wanted to retract an especially bad paper.  Kinne wouldn’t let him, and Hans and several otehr editors resigned in protest.  A certain group of authors had never published a paper in CR, then when de Freitas arrived, 14 were accepted through him, some really bad.  After the blowup inh 2003, no more from them through him, the party was over.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    If all you are interested in is winning an argument on the internet then I suppose the opinion of associations is relevant.  If your task is convincing Western Civilization to impoverish itself in order to save the planet then an opinion poll is a scorecard.  This clearly shows you are miserable failures at world saving.  You can go take comfort in your fantasy that some nefarious fossil fuel conspiracy has distorted and hidden the truth from the masses.  

  • Carolinaguitarman

    But Wood claimed those two were climate scientists; they weren’t, and have done no professional work in climate science.  Happer and Trimble have no relevant expertise to critique Mann’s work.  Neither did Mcintyre and Mckitrick, which is why they so royally screwed up their analysis (their mistakes completely compromised their results, while Mann’s had no great effect on his).  Neither did Wegman et al in the Wegman Report know what they were doing, which is why they had to resort to blatant plagiarism and copied the same mistakes M&M did.  So, yeah, it matters.

  • http://twitter.com/hengistmcstone Hengist McStone

    Mr Wood , your claim to be not taking sides on the science wears a little thin whilst cherry-picking  arguments to  make personal attacks on the people involved.   Your criticism of Dr Mann for resorting to legal measures to defend his reputation is imbalanced because you haven’t mentioned the fact that he is on the recieving end of legal proceedings brought by Cuccinelli and Horner.    

  • grantb

    “Clearly Mr Wood’s recent consideration of the role of violent rhetoric in promoting right wing political violence, leading inter alia to Mr Breivik of Norway’s approving citation of the NAS, hasn’t really gone far enough…”

    My god, you really are a piece of work, aren’t you. And given the title of this post, a very poorly developed sense of irony.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_BCGUDF45ITRKOLE3HSYSO3XSAA Girma

    Is anthropogenic global warming (AGW) a valid scientific theory?  Is it well supported by the empirical data or is it mostly an artifact of computer modeling?

     
    Let us look at the following data from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia to attempt to answer the above question.
     
    http://bit.ly/nicmt9
     
    The above data shows that the annual global mean temperate (GMT) oscillates like a pendulum every 30 years from one GMT boundary line to the other. As the current GMT is near the upper boundary line, the GMT will necessarily move (as a pendulum would) to the lower boundary line in the next decades.
     
    To claim further warming of 0.2 deg C per decade by the IPCC is to violate basic physics and nature.
     

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_BCGUDF45ITRKOLE3HSYSO3XSAA Girma

    Peter Wood

    Thank you for a brilliant article.

    Thank you for writing down my thoughts on this issue.

    Science must be as pure as the North Pole’s snow. No hiding data. No deleting data. No Climate Thuggery.

    AGW theory without validation is not a scientific theory.

    IPCC has projected for a global warming of 0.2 deg C per decades in the next decades. Has this been validated?

    Policy MUST follow only after validation of theory.

  • chriscolose

    R117532,Science cannot tell you if something will be “bad” or not– that is ultimately a subjective judgment.  However, science can inform us that at x degrees warmer, there will be dying off the Amazon, a complete summer loss of Arctic sea ice, several meters of sea level rise, etc.  This is not a climate we have accustomed ourself to, and we’re radically going in that direction on order of a century or so.  Certainly, some colder areas like Russia might not care much, or people who have the comfort of living in their Air Conditioning  won’t care if the ratio of daily record high maximum temperatures to record low minimum temperatures hits 50:1, or if heat waves become more frequent, etc.    

  • arthurpsmith

    R117532, I have been addressing Peter Wood, not you here in these comments, and he (along with many of the others commenting) clearly does not agree to the basic science that you “stipulate”, given his very specific statements so far here. But let us stipulate for now, and move on to the consequences question.

    Your three questions ask for certainty, but science can give only uncertainty on consequences at this point. What we are (near) certain of is only that the climate *is warming*, it *is changing*, as you stipulate, caused by our actions. That means the future will be different from the past, but it is very hard to say in exactly what ways. There are many, many consequences of that change which are possible, some of which are likely, a few of which are, in IPCC terminology, even “very likely”. But most of the worst have considerable uncertainty.

    So no legitimate person taking the scientific perspective can refute the person who says they like warmth. Maybe warmth will be just fine. But let me list some of the outcomes that the IPCC second working group (WG2) found to be in some degree likely, as of 2007. You can decide whether these are sufficiently “horrific” to be of concern. Also remember the uncertainty means impacts could be worse than we expect. Again this is available free online here:
    http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/publications/AR4/index.html

    from section C of the Summary for PolicyMakers:
    * By mid-century, annual average river runoff and water availability are projected to increase by 10-40% at high latitudes and in some wet tropical areas, and decrease by 10-30%over some dry regions at mid-latitudes and in the dry tropics, some of which are presently water-stressed areas.
    * Drought-affected areas will likely increase in extent. Heavy precipitation events,which are very likely to increase in frequency, will augment flood risk.
    * In the course of the century,water supplies stored in glaciers and snow cover are projected to decline, reducing water availability in regions supplied by meltwater from major mountain ranges,where more than one-sixth of the world population currently lives.
    * Approximately 20-30% of plant and animal species assessed so far are likely to be at increased risk of extinction if increases in global average temperature exceed 1.5-2.5°C.
    * For increases in global average temperature exceeding 1.5-2.5°C and in concomitant atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, there are projected to be major changes in ecosystem structure and function, species’ ecological interactions, and species’ geographical ranges, with predominantly negative consequences for biodiversity, and ecosystem goods and services e.g., water and food supply.
    * The progressive acidification of oceans due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide is expected to have negative impacts on marine shell-forming organisms (e.g., corals) and their
    dependent species.
    * Crop productivity is projected to increase slightly at mid- to high latitudes for local mean temperature increases of up to 1-3°C depending on the crop, and then decrease beyond that in some regions.
    * At lower latitudes, especially seasonally dry and tropical regions, crop productivity is projected to decrease for even small local temperature increases (1-2°C), which would increase the risk of hunger.
    * Increases in the frequency of droughts and floods are projected to affect local crop production negatively, especially in subsistence sectors at low latitudes.
    * Regional changes in the distribution and production of particular fish species are expected due to continued warming, with adverse effects projected for aquaculture and fisheries.
    * Coasts are projected to be exposed to increasing risks, including coastal erosion, due to climate change and sea-level rise. The effect will be exacerbated by increasing human-induced pressures on coastal areas.
    * Many millions more people are projected to be flooded every year due to sea-level rise by the 2080s. Those densely-populated and low-lying areas where adaptive capacity is relatively low, and which already face other challenges such as tropical storms or local coastal subsidence, are especially at risk. The numbers affected will be largest in the mega-deltas of Asia and Africa while small islands are especially vulnerable.
    * Costs and benefits of climate change for industry, settlement and society will vary widely by location and scale. In the aggregate, however, net effects will tend to be more negative the larger the change in climate.
    * Where extreme weather events become more intense and/or more frequent, the economic and social costs of those events will increase, and these increases will be substantial in the areas most directly affected. Climate change impacts spread from directly impacted areas and sectors to other areas and sectors through extensive and complex linkages.
    * Projected climate change-related exposures are likely to affect
    the health status of millions of people, particularly those with
    low adaptive capacity, through:
    • increases in malnutrition and consequent disorders, with
    implications for child growth and development;
    • increased deaths, disease and injury due to heatwaves,
    floods, storms, fires and droughts;
    • the increased burden of diarrhoeal disease;
    • the increased frequency of cardio-respiratory diseases due
    to higher concentrations of ground-level ozone related to
    climate change; and,
    • the altered spatial distribution of some infectious disease
    vectors.
    * Studies in temperate areas have shown that climate change is projected to bring some benefits, such as fewer deaths from cold exposure. Overall it is expected that these benefits will be outweighed by the negative health effects of rising temperatures worldwide, especially in developing countries.

    It has specific lists of impacts by region; for North America:
    * Warming in western mountains is projected to cause decreased snowpack, more winter flooding, and reduced summer flows, exacerbating competition for over-allocated water resources.
    * Disturbances from pests, diseases and fire are projected to have increasing impacts on forests, with an extended period of high fire risk and large increases in area burned.
    * Cities that currently experience heatwaves are expected to be further challenged by an increased number, intensity and duration of heatwaves during the course of the century, with potential for adverse health impacts. Elderly populations are most at risk

    And there are large-scale impacts possible in the long run – or perhaps sooner:
    * Very large sea-level rises that would result from widespread deglaciation of Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets imply major changes in coastlines and ecosystems, and inundation of
    low-lying areas, with greatest effects in river deltas. Relocating populations, economic activity, and infrastructure would be costly and challenging. There is medium confidence that at least partial deglaciation of the Greenland ice sheet, and possibly the West Antarctic ice sheet, would occur over a period of time ranging from centuries to millennia for a global average temperature increase of 1-4°C (relative to 1990-2000), causing a contribution to sea-level rise of 4-6 m or more. The complete melting of the Greenland ice sheet and the West Antarctic ice sheet would lead to a contribution to sea-level rise of up to 7 m and about 5 m, respectively.

    * Many estimates of aggregate net economic costs of damages from climate change across the globe (i.e., the social cost of carbon (SCC), expressed in terms of future net benefits and costs that are discounted to the present) are now available. Peer-reviewed estimates of the SCC for 2005 have an average value of US$43 per tonne of carbon (i.e., US$12 per tonne of carbon dioxide), but the range around this mean is large. For example, in a survey of 100 estimates, the values ran from US$-10 per tonne of carbon (US$-3 per tonne of carbon dioxide) up to US$350 per tonne of carbon.

    So, that’s what we know. Given that the climate is changing from the period that we have intimate knowledge with, much of this is only educated guesswork. It could be better, it could be  worse.

    I see that we have new “thugs” arriving from WattsUpWithThat, BishopHill and Judith Curry’s blogs. Or perhaps Peter Wood doesn’t view them that way? I would encourage any impartial visitor here to compare the tone and range of pro-science comments here with the spectrum on those sites…

  • R117532

    Thanks for this. I read the report you referenced. For those interested in the empirical evidence and degrees of certainty attached to the “so what” question, I recommend the Executive Summary on “Assessing key vulnerabilities and the risk from climate change” page 781. It does appear that most of the projected impacts are speculative to varying degrees. This is not to say they are trivial because, as a matter of decision-science, the downside risks should some of them materialize are considerable.

    In any event, those interested in a quick read of what we speculate might happen mid-century, etc. if global warming continues its current course will find a summary here: http://www.ipcc-wg2.gov/AR4/website/19.pdf. This is a 2007 report, presumably based on 2006 and prior data.

    Postscript: As research methodologist, I have learned to observe indications of bias in reports. I see many in this report and cannot help but wish I could see behind the scenes. Here is one (emphasis mine):

    “Global mean temperature changes of up to 2°C above
    1990-2000 levels **would** exacerbate current key
    impacts, such as those listed above (high confidence),
    and trigger others, such as reduced food security in
    many low latitude nations (medium confidence).
    At the same time, some systems, such as global
    agricultural productivity, **could** benefit
    (low/medium confidence).”

    When I look at the data behind these generalizations, I do not see scientific support for the “would/could” distinction. IT seems more like the authors want to minimize any potential positive outcomes, which are also speculative.

  • http://twitter.com/AGW_Prof Scott A Mandia

    Thanks Arthur.  I have some Web pages and blog posts on impacts of climate change here if people wish to learn more.  Some of the data is newer than IPCC.

    http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warming/impact_climate_change.html

  • cwm4c

    johnmashey–please reread my comment–As I said, people will bring in other articles and positions at conferences, etc–irrelevant to the discussion of THIS article–no one’s point of view on AGW has any standing in this.  It is whether or not this could impede the science either way

  • cwm4c

    Thank You R117532. arthurpsmith–how do you feel that I’m “on a side?”  I don’t state a position and my entire point in this discussion is that either “side” is irrelevant to THIS article.  This article argues one thing only–that taking this issue through the courts and/or press along with mudslinging both ways might/will hurt the actual science.  I concur with that sentiment!

  • JohnMashey

    Hengist, I must disagree.  At least at NAS, DR Wood has certainly mentioned Cuccinelli:
    05/12/10 “To
    Serve Mann: Virginia’s AG Puts Climate-Researcher on the Menu”
    http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=1315

    Make sure you click on the “informed observers” link to find the identity of the informed observer on whom Wood relies.

  • Blorg

    Where was James Hansen’s suppressed discussion?  He was making speeches left and right and talking to newspaper while claiming he was being suppressed.  The newspapers ate it up.  And has Mann ever figured out that varves shouldn’t be used upside down, especially when affected by anthropogenic activities?

  • JohnMashey

    As I’ve wished elsewhere, I am truly curious what *NAS members* actually think of all this.
    I would really be pleased if NAS members would appear, and either publicly support Wood’s approach in “Bottling” and “Thuggery” and related articles at NAS … or not.  It would be nice if they’d briefly mention their backgrounds to help others assess credibility.

    One distinguished climate researcher wrote a public piece rather disagreeing with Wood’s stance last year on Climategate, but was ignored:
    http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?doc_id=1444

    We’ve had indirect report of 3 NAS members who supported Wood for “Bottling”, but it would be helpful if they were to appear and speak for themselves, along with the other heads of the state affiliates.  I think they are: a professor of music composition and 2 retired professors (sociology and history.)  Understanding belief patterns in this domain is a topic of research interest.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Philip-Nolan/100000149811785 Philip Nolan

    Mr Mashey:
    Thanks for the references. They also made interesting, but largely uninformative reading. Your first reference which is to a paper you wrote, has only a single, specific reference to a scientist who claims to have recieved “threatening emails”. Everything else you reference in that paper is unsupported by facts or particulars. Your only identified instance is about Stephen Schnieder.
    You first reference:www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50607 March 9, 2010   ”"I have hundreds” of threatening emails, Stephen Schneider, a climatologist at Stanford University in California, told Tierramérica. He believes scientists will be killed over this. “I’m not going to let it worry me… but you know it’s going to happen,” said Schneider, one of the most respected climate scientists in the world. “They shoot abortion doctors here.”  

    Couple of problems with that. Using the mails or internet to make threats is a crime in most, if not all states. Did he make a police report? If not, I am skeptical about the claim. Annoying emails hardly constitute a “threat of violence”. Besides, virtually all of the references to Stephen Schneider receiving threats came from Pro-AGW sources, almost all internet based – such as IPSThe only actual mainstream news outlet that I could find to report on it is an obituary on the untimely death of Schneider in:http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/obituaries/la-me-stephen-schneider-20100720,0,1170591.story  July 20, 2010 ”He said he had received hundreds of abusive e-mails from critics, particularly since the Copenhagen climate change summit in December. A few weeks ago he told the London Guardian newspaper that his name was among those of several climatologists that appeared earlier this year on a death list on a neo-Nazi website.”

    Excuse me, but AGW skeptics are not part of the neo-Nazi movement, regardless of what you might want to believe. Moreover, in the article you reference, Schneider makes a factually false statement. He said “They shoot abortion doctors here.” Sorry, wrong. Stanford is in California – there are no records of abortion doctors in California being shot or physically assaulted. See Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence#Murders
    And what that has to do with threats against scientists is unclear. Lots of people make and receive threats. Is there actually any record of a climate scientist being assaulted or shot?

    The rest of the references are unsupported by any facts, just unsuppported claims and opinion..

    Your second reference http://deepclimate.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/strange-scholarship-v1-02.pdfHardly an ubiased source, it is merely another paper written by you.The reference on page 10 is typical- Memes and Themes ”Meme-d It‘s a few bad scientistsAttacks often focus on a few, or mainly one scientist at a time. Targets have been Ben Santer (IPCC SAR), Michael Mann (TAR), and Phil Jones (―Climategate,‖ perhaps AR4). Misattribution of multi-person efforts to individuals is effective in personifying results, yielding easier targets compared to larger organizations. All have been repeatedly called criminals, attacked in OpEds and been threatened with violence.”

    Not a single specific fact. Have there been police reports made in any of those instances?While I am at it, I hardly consider an annoying email from some anonymous lout that may be half-way around the world a credible “threat” – and no one does either. So let’s try to separate real threats from merely annoying emails.

    Your third reference http://aaas.confex.com/aaas/2010/webprogram/Session1591.html  was simply laughable. It said “ ”Special attention will be given to how contrarian scientists and those who help promote their views have largely managed to bypass peer-reviewed scientific journals …”
    First, it is blatantly false as many AGW skeptics are published in peer reviewed journals and second, even if it was true it should be no surprise since the climategate emails reveal a concerted effort by some of the main players in the AGW movement to block publication of contrarian papers in peer reviewed journals.

    Your final reference contains nothing more than a vague and non-specific statement “Reports ofharassment, death threats, and legal challenges have created a hostile environment that inhibits the free exchange of scientific findings and ideas and makes it difficult for factual information and scientific analyses to reach policymakers and the public.” Not that I disagree with their sentiments. let’s just have it go both ways.
    SorryI am still waiting for facts. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rik-Van-Riel/639830381 Rik Van Riel

    You are right that indeed there are a few facts that pretty much everybody in the climate debate can agree on.  One of those facts is that CO2 has a logarithmic effect on temperatures. Everything else being equal, every doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will warm the earth by around 1.2 degrees Celcius. This has been known for over a century and is not disputed.

    Without feedbacks, this logarithmic warming alone would pretty much mean that we will run out of fossil fuels before we have caused dangerous warming on earth.

    Where the dispute lies is whether there are feedbacks that will amplify or reduce this warming, and how large those feedbacks are. In order to cause the catastrophic warming that the proponents of the more drastic anti-AGW measures advocate, the feedbacks would have to be positive and on the order of 2-3x as large as the CO2 warming alone.

    Luckily, there are climate models with all kinds of feedback assumptions, and the majority of these feedbacks result in testable predictions, which can be measured.

    New measurements appear to rule out some of the strongest positive feedbacks, and hint at the existence of some negative feedbacks.

    As new measurements come in, scientists can re-evaluate the assumptions that went into the old models and come up with new models that match observed reality.

    As the article highlights, it appears that some of the scientists appear unwilling to adjust their theories to new data. That is not the way science is supposed to be done, and I hope the situation will improve as more people find out about it.

  • R117532

    Even though the topic of this blog has little to do with the science of global warming, it has devolved to that. From this perspective, your observations are among the most refreshingly broadening that I have seen in this dialog.

    I’m curious, if the explanation is not too complex for this forum, what is the nature of the most significant negative feedbacks that are being observed and/or speculated upon? Does this mean that the empirical temperature curve is less than logarithmic in relation to CO2 increase?

    Separately, what is the most defensible estimate of the proportion of variance in CO2 change attributable to human factors?

  • chriscolose

    The problem in this ¨debate¨ is that climate scientists are frequently held to standards not typical of any scientific discipline.  Moreover they have been persecuted far more than any other current scientific discipline, so broad comparisons between how ¨climate scientists¨ should act and how the ideal scientist acts are taken from a lack of sampling.  What if ¨climateaudit¨ were instead ¨geologyaudit¨ or ¨astrophysics-audit¨; what if disinformation blogs like WUWT were instead dedicated to distorting the fields of biology or ecology? What if a nuclear physicist were suddenly accused of fraud and had hundreds of e-mail messages accusing him of this, as well as blog posting every week reminding him of how his analyses were fraudulent, even after no legitimate scientific evidence could be brought forth to show it.  In this case I fully expect that people in those fields would rapidly get annoyed with the nonsense.

    There is very little of this in other academic disciplines, at least at the scale that has plagued climatology.  The reason is because astrophysics actually does not threaten large industries and personal lifestyles.  The only thing close is the theory of evolution, which has a very large anti-science campaign going against it out of fear that it threatens certain religious ideals.  It is very similar to climate change denial, and in fact the argument style overlaps to a considerable degree.  In both cases, the argument style is geared toward being a lawyer and creating reasonable doubt, rather than proposing and defending a new theory or advancing the understanding of what is there.  In both cases, the ¨skeptics¨ have laundry lists of arguments, and when one is shot down, they simply jump to the next one; like in a climate version of Groundhog´s day, the same arguments are then repeated to different audiences a few weeks later.

    It should be apparent that climatologists as a collective whole are not engaged in any huge conspiracy or suppression.  That people still bother with the likes of Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen is proof of this.  Rather, they are frustrated with the amount of distortion of the field by amateurs who think that reading a blog makes them an instant-expert, and those who actually do know better, yet spew disinformation nonetheless.

  • JonasN

    Scott AM
     
    Smoking/lungcancer is a red herring and the analogy with the CO2-driven AGW-hypothesis is a very poor one (can you figure out why?). I doubt that this analogy is made by someone doing real rsearch about what controls and regulates earth’s climate. (But hey, I know that lots of your ilk gladly stoop to such Oresquian levels ;-)

    I looked upp your link-collection and it was littered with red flags: Exxon Mobile (appeared many times), Big Tobacco, Union of concerned Scientists, ExxonSecrets, SourceWatch, even some Bush bashing. And a long list of activist blogs, all of wich censor heavliy and are afraid of open debate and opposing views. Seriously? Joe Romm,DeSmog blog and Deep Climate? Is this how you have formed your belief? Well, that makes some sense at least.

    But please, don’t come here lecturing me and others what we need to read. Are you aware that you didn’t address  any of the points i mentioned.

    Yes, you restated that (some people believe that) AGW supposedly is a known fact. Correctly stated, that would have been the AGW-hypothesis I already mentioned above. But belief does not constitute science.

    Further, you are wrong about the mirroring part. The global temperature has been changing well before humans started increase CO2-levels. For about the two preceding centuries. Well, there is one part of your ‘unknown something’ causing warming.

    And as I already pointed out, from mid 40ies to mid 70ies there is a temperature decline, in spite of CO2-levels rising. In fact, the only period of reasonable agreement with your hypothesis are the 23 years between 1975 and 1998. Definitely not before, and neither thererafter.

    These 23 years are what the AGW-hypothesis (IPCC-version) hinges on. And it is wearing thinner by the every year. In fact, you are wrong (or right) about both of you unknowns:

    2) We know that something unknown makes temperatures go up (and down), even in the absence of varying CO2. The temperature record tells us that. Even the IPCC only claims ~half of the observed changes are due to human GHG:s.

    1) And yes, for more than a decade, temperatures have refused to increase further even though CO2-levels have risen steadily.

    As I already mentioned, the alarmist side has recently tried to do-away with that fact by blaming the discrepancy on chinese sulphur emissions: The chinese coal burning counteracts the temperature increase which the chinese coal burning supposedly is causing through its GHG emissions. That is rather funny … dont’ you think?

    ‘We cant’s see what we claimed, because that what causes what we claim also conceals what we claim it must show’

    (Well, there are finer points to this hilarity, but proably lost here)

    One more note. It is true that:
    “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”

    But the extraordinary claim is that CO2-controls the cliamte. And 23 years of roughly coinciding trend (and much more where it doesn’t) just doesn’t cut it as I already said.

    Finally, please refrain from making prophecies for the future. Both wrt the climate, the forthcoming disasterous global problems, and how good taxes, carbon offsets and stimulus is for the economy. Focus on the issues here:

    That is understanding what the AGW-hypothesis actually states, on what empirical observations it is based on, and most of all all the problems that this hypothesis has hade from the outset, and which are piling up continuously as we speak, as new data and reserach comes in, and as the discrepancie between prophecy (projection) and reality increases with every passing year ..

  • JonasN

    Scott (and James Haughton)

    None of the many academies that purpotedly support the AGW-orthodoxy have asked their members about their position. In fact, I know of several cases where some member protested vehemently. And those questionaires sent out to researchers in the field were asked to answer quite vage and not very discriminating questions, hardly cutting to the core of the matter. That is true for many of the opinion polls among the scientists and so called experts. Also the IPCC’s 2500+ experts claimed to be behind the summary and its findings were neither asked if they were, and their expertise regarding the core issues was negligible for most of them. Many were just politically appointed bureaucrats.

    I agree with James H (if this is what he menat): Opinion polls poll opinions (suprise!). They do not settle sicentific queries …

  • marka

    Yikes!  Here’s my problem with the advocate/defenders of Global Warming/Anthropomorphic Climate Change:

    “calculations unequivocally show that adding CO2 reduces outgoing energy, leading to warming. There is no scientific question on that point.”

    From where I sit, I am skeptical of absolute assertions about ‘unequivocal’ and ‘no scientific question’ – and those who state that are presumptively trying to shove something down my throat and silence all dissent – precisely the point being made in the article.  Science is all about questioning, and is constantly evolving – commenters have already noted the overwhelming opposition to Einstein’s insights in the 20th century, and all we should need to add are Galileo & Copernicus, and all the other pioneers of various scientific pursuits who were considered heretics of the comtemporary ‘science’ of the time.  Those heretics – may – actually turn out to be correct.  Only time will tell – not theories & projections.

    For such advocates/defenders – this is why you are undercutting yourselves and whatever science backs you up – you are simply insulting my intelligence, and the intelligence of other readers – when you resort to absolutes.  How, indeed, can I attribute any credibility to someone who villifies all opposition, and pretends that they now have all the answers, especially when they are trying to convince us about projections based on limited data on a ‘science’ that has numerous assumptions built into computer modeling.

    And when someone points that out, you then attack him?!?!

    You’ve got a lot to learn about successful sustainable advocacy & the limits of knowledge.

  • chriscolose

     marka,

    You have a strong point, but the fact that science is an evolving process does not give freedom for everyone and their grandma to simply make things up, and pretend they are just as good as existing theories.

    When Einstein challenged current understanding of physics, he did not create a list of 100 potential arguments that he thought of on a whim, throw one out there and wait for it to be rebutted, throw the next one out there, wait for it to be rebutted, and then hope that on idea #67 he would actually have a point.  Moreover, he did not go out and repeat flawed arguments #1-66 a month later to a new non-technical audience, and hope that the newspapers picked it up.  That is precisely what is done today with those who try to ¨disprove¨ anthropogenic climate change, or other central conclusions outlined by the IPCC 2007 and other reports. 

    Einstein also did not advance his new theory of relativity by hacking into other physicists e-mails, and proclaiming that they were all suppressing his 100 crank ideas.  When classical physicists could only show that the intensity of radiation by an object blew up in the low wavelength limit, Planck and others did not accuse them of beings frauds or blog about the failure of science; instead, they actually tried to do better, and instead of acting like lawyers, proposed a *new* theory hat took quantum considerations into account.

    On another point: The fact is that some theories have stood enough time and have high explanatory and predictive power, and are not discussed in the same way that you imply.  For example, you probably do not think people are shoving things down your throat when they teach you about gravity, or that if someone calls a person who says the Earth is flat ¨stupid,¨ that this somehow weakens the spherical-Earth ¨theory.¨ 

    The danger of your thinking is that people fall victim to the Galileo fallacy, and believe that the consensus is necessarily wrong, and that any new information that goes against that must be right.  In fact, this is rarely true.  This is because, rather than consensus dictating the truth of something, consensus is what follows after the work has been done…consensus is what goes into textbooks after scientists have debated, and argued, and re-examined, and argued more.  In fact, the history of accepting CO2´s central role in climate shows that it took at least a century to appreciate.

    AGW is not an intrinsic theory.  It emerges from other theories, including blackbody radiation and thermodynamics, some of which pioneers like Einstein were a key part of.  The same physics explains the radiant spectra observed on Mars or Venus, and allows us to make sense of past climate events.  The greenhouse effect itself is very well understood, see a simple explanation:
    http://blog.timesunion.com/weather/understanding-global-warming-how-to-build-a-greenhouse-effect/1196/

    No one has proposed anything nearly as good; attacking other scientists and engaging in logical fallacies that first-year undergrads could pick up on does not count toward the progression of science.

  • cocotartufo

    Marka,

    I don’t think Galileo would have a problem with that statement since its basis is experimental — and Galileo was revolutionary precisely for his reliance on empirical/experimental approach to developing knowledge.  Climate scientists are employing the very lessons that Galileo passed down to scientists from generation to generation.

    Moreover, I think you are implictly using a bit of a double standard.  You seem to accept Galileo’s findings as gospel though they have gone unchallenged for centuries, while questioning the ”absolutism” of CO2′s effect on climate even though the empirical evidence for that effect is also extremely strong.  While you may abhore absolutism, the fact is that knowledge in science builds upon acceptance of certain well established ”facts” that can be repeatedly observed by independent parties or have held up to strong empirical and theoretical challenge over time.  Scientists have no problem with freedom of thought, but they also believe that the natural world behaves in repeatable ways, and it’s that which governs which ideas about the natural world survive, not the scientists themselves.

    It’s fair to ask, though, what is the experimental basis for such confidence in the effect of CO2 on climate.  The certainty on display can certainly raise red flags if you are unfamiliar with it’s underpinnings, and noone can those justice in a post to a blog.  I would follow links of others to many summary statements by scientific societies, collections of papers, and especially to Spencer Weart’s History of Global Warming (available free online -Google it) — in which you will see the idea took a long time to acheive the status it has.  It’s an interesting read that touches on many branches of science.

    In a nutshell, though?

    CO2 is known to be transparent to visible light, while it absorbs heat radiation.  That’s been documented by Tyndall in the mid 1800′s and measured more precisely by those who developed heat seeking missle systems in the 50′s  by Plass and colleagues.   The behavior of CO2 in this regard is very very well known and many technologies depend on that knowledge.  With the right equipment, you would get the same answer.  It also is consistent with general principles of physical chemistry as it pertains to observed properties of other substances – so the confidence is not simply based on observations of CO2.

    Arhennius first suggested in 1896 that, due to it’s measured properties, increasing CO2 should reduce the efficiency by which heat radiated from earth is lost to space, which should in turn warm the earth given a certain amount of solar radiation coming in to produce that heat.  He also postulated several specific fingerprints of warming that resulted from what was called greenhouse gas emissions – i.e., spatial and temporal patterns of warming that would not be produced by other means (changes in solar radiation/albedo etc).  Recent workers working in more complicated models predicted other patterns as well that are unique to the effect of CO2 and other greenhouse gases.

    The many predictions of the theory have been tested in two ways, by comparing climates of planets with different abundances of CO2 molecules in the atmosphere, and by looking at our own planet’s reponse to recently increasing CO2.  These comparisons were done while also accounting for other sources of heat (solar radiation, albedo changes, aerosols). In both instances, the effect of CO2 on average temperature, on spatial and temporal patterns of warming and the nature of outgoing radiation indicate that Ahrrenius, and the others that followed him were completely consistent with what the observed physical properties and the implications of those properties for planetary heat balance.

    Basically, it is really hard to find a idea in planetary science that is better supprted by the evidence than is the effect of CO2 on planetary energy balance.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/FP4EYCHGUHNSZ326G4E35MCGRY Orson

    jonhmashey: “Most of those [AAAS] speakers get or have gotten frequent death threats; we talked about it over lunch.” So has climatologist Tim Ball.  And what about Climategate’s Ben Santer — the federal scientist who threatened ‘to beat the crap out of’ University of Virginia climatologist Pat Michaels. Recently Santer complained of the same. Bad Karma, Ben? Or maybe it is dangerous to feed off taxpayer welfare during a long, hard fiscal crisis where the government never suffers everyone’s pains?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    I see Desmog Blog has launched a furious attack on you…

    http://www.desmogblog.com/nas-president-peter-wood-wrong-dishonest-or-hopelessly-compromised

    What do you do with the piles of money you receive from Richard Mellon Scaife?  

  • R117532

    I’ve got to say that this has been tremendously fun. Fascinating even! Rich observational opportunities for psychologists, sociologists, and others! 

    Most of us have an historical appreciation of contexts in which ersatz scientists have behaved this way, placing cause over reason, but this is my first time up close. As a graduate student in the 1970′s, I recall what seemed then like acrimonious exchanges between the radical behaviorists (i.e., Skinnerians) and other schools of thought (structuralists, humanists, etc.) but even the most heated exchanges were respectful, rational, and scientific to the core.

    Even the nearly inexhaustible resources of NAS (what, $260K? you must be doing something evil with all those fortunes) could not have staged anything this wonderful. Nice work Peter. I’m joining NAS. Anyone who can smoke ‘em out this well deserves support.

  • Bogs_Dollocks

    Water vapour, including it’s condensed form of clouds, is the dominant green house gas. 

    CO2 is a minor green house gas.
    However, it is essential for plants and thus for all life on earth.

  • dank48

    “Quotations aside, religious zealotry has no hand in the scientific debate.”

    Exactly. Perhaps I misunderstood, but it seems to me you’re missing my point.

  • dank48

    All this discussion, and so many people have so much trouble sticking to the topic. I’m probably the dozenth person pointing out that the article is not about AGW; it’s about people’s behavior in discussions of AGW.

    Too many people accept “really really really believe” as a working definition of “know,” at least in the first-person singular.

    No matter how confident I am in my beliefs about AGW (or any other subject), I have an established track record of serious mistakes, unfortunate errors, and getting things wrong. So my normal human confidence in my own brilliant, well-educated, marvelously informed, insightful beliefs, convictions, and opinions should at least be seasoned by the awareness that I’ve been certain I was right plenty of times when I wasn’t, and I have no guarantee whatsoever that this isn’t another one of those times.

    Anyone who is unwilling to consider seriously the possibility that he or she might just be incorrect is  at least flirting with bigotry.

  • dank48

    Remember Richard Feynman’s criticism of many physicists’ fascination with computer models, which sooner or later come to seem more “real” to their devotees than the actual real world? He called the model obsession a disease. 

  • cocotartufo

    Actually, I think it’s a fallacy to diconnect the issue of the substance of AGW from the post.  Remember, the title is Climate Thuggery!”  The implication (and it is strong and unmistakable) is that the methods employed by proponents of the idea that humans are affecting climate are reduced to aggressive tactics because of their desperation to obscure alternate views. 

    I have argued that Mann and Mashey have simply responded to the aggression shown toward them – aggression that was clearly designed to silence those who adhere to the consensus and make it appear as if there is a large scientific debate on the matter. 

    Others have then suggested that the level of confidence exhibited by “AGW proponents” is itself a form of thuggery.  I say, it’s actually an indication of the strength of the evidence behind the proposition…evidence which can be discussed. 

    Look, there are two responses to someone who seems quite certain of their opinion.  One is to simply dismiss their opinion out of hand, because that person seems to be ”flirting with bigotry” as you describe it  But that in itself is a form of ”flirting with bigotry”, because it presumes that no person who has a strong opinion could possibly have sifted through the evidence and come to that position rationally.  I agree that if that person was unwilling to discuss the bases of that position, they would be rather off-putting.  But I am willing, as are others.

    I will say that it is often a thankless task – and it takes quite a bit of patience.  As Chris Colose has mentioned, we hear the same arguments that have been discredited by empirical research rear their heads over and over again as if they were born anew.  I have yet to find a skeptical argument that holds water, in my opinion. 

    That has jaded my attitude, I admit.  Maybe it has jaded others a bit more.  But, I still try to follow up every new criticism that I hear.  I don’t presume arrogance in the face of new evidence…the issue is too important. 

  • cocotartufo

    I think the behavorist debate is completely different.  That was about epistemology, there were no real substantial financial interests at stake, and the ideological warfare was contained within academia.

    Here we have people with vested economic and/or ideological interest claiming that there is a debate among scientists where there is none – in fact hasn’t been one for some time now on this issue except for a tiny minority of climate scientists (half of whom are named by Woods).  This false impression has somehow gotten swept up in the culture wars and in the general polarization of society, partly because it has received significant amplification in certain media outlets, many of which are owned by one very influential guy with an explicit political agenda (NAS is a small player, I agree). 

    As a result, we have scientists getting routinely  intimidated (in some cases physically threatened) for simply stating conclusions that are consistent with the general consensus or presenting data consistent with that consensus.  We have those scientists getting criticized for defending themselves, by Peter Woods in this very blog, as if they are “thugs.”  We have the entire scientific enterprise being called into question .. which in turn threatens the vary basis of rational decision making. 

    I dare say more is at stake here.  I welcome a return to more rational debate, but what Peter Wood has done here actually makes such a discussion less likely by labeling those who understand the consensus as thugs.  That can have nothing but a chilling effect on discourse.

    The tenor of the debate really is not that different from the tobacco debate, the ozone hole debate, the acid rain debate…  Same tactics repeated over and over again.  Interestingly, same outcome in the end, which I like to think that is because overwhelming evidence trumps vested interest.  Nature does what it does regardless of politics. 

  • R117532

    I take your point about the differences in my example. It was reminiscent, not identical. That dissimilarity does not vitiate the points that individuals like ‘dank48,’ ‘betterschool’ and I have made as many different ways as we can make them.

    Let me ask what you make of the fact that objective outside observers — calm, clear-eyed people who are generally favorable to the concerns you express — repeatedly tell you that you are behaving more badly that the opposition? You say “the opposition” is mean spirited. Does that justify mean spirited behavior within your group? At what point do you become responsible for your own methods? At what point do you realize that you are not advancing the cause of truth?

  • cocotartufo

    Like I said, you can’t do the subject justice in a response to a blog post!

    Water is a greenhouse gas, in the sense that it is largely transparent to visible light but absorbs heat radiation.  However, water is constantly precipitating out of the atmosphere, whereas CO2  does not.  In fact an H2O molecule only spends an average of 5-10 days in the atmosphere before it is leaves as raindrops.  Models indicate that the only real way to increase the average amount of water in the atmosphere is to increase or decrease temperature of the atmosphere on average.  Only greenhouse gases that do not precipitate can have a persistent effect on climate.  H2O vapor then amplifies the effect of these gases – in other words the effect of CO2 depends on water vapor being a greenhouse gas.  This feedback has been observed empirically in response to the climate cooling from the Pinatubo explosion (Soder et al Science 2002).

    CO2 is used by plants, it’s true, although this has nothing to do with it’s role in warming.  Under ideal conditions (i.e. full water nutrients light in greenhouses) you can get better growth of plants by increasing CO2 concentrations, as happens in greenhouses with monocultures.  When you are looking at the real world though, other factors are more important constraints on plant growth (mostly water but also nutrients, light, temperature).  Also, plants differ markedly in their responses to CO2.  The IPCC suggested that initially crop production might see a net benefit of CO2 increase, but that as warming increased, water and temp effects dominate and result in substantial decline in crop production – particularly in water stressed regions like SW USA.  However, recent long term experiments (FACE) with plots of CO2 on growth and biomass than expected, especially in natural mixed species plots.  Some see evidence that vines and weeds are especially favored by CO2.  I think that’s up in the air still.

    Basically, the effect of CO2 on plants is complicated.  Also the effects have been incorporated in global carbon models in a simple way since the 70s – if anything the science suggests less of an affect than originally assumed.

  • arthurpsmith

    “objective outside observer …  repeatedly tell you that you are behaving more badly that the opposition?” – really? Citation please! I have never been told such a thing by a person I could identify as an “objective outside oberver”! But if I did hear from such a person I would just ask them to compare the comments from us here with the comments from the threads at WattsUp and Bishop Hill that have linked here. Frustration at repeated false claims is a little different from mean spirit.

  • cocotartufo

    We agree…I’m pointing out that a position can be strongly held on the basis of evidence rather than zealoutry. 

    In this instance it is a demonstrable fact that a consensus exists among scientific bodies on the effects of humans on climate.  That consensus states that warming has happened, that it is almost certainly largely due to human activity through its effect on greenhouse gases, that warming will likely continue under business as usual and the consequences could be somewhere between pretty bad and disastrous.  I don’t believe it is zealoutry to point out that claims that such a consensus don’t exist fly in the face of observation.

    You argue implicitly that the consensus position is a form of zealoutry.  You do so using a single quote, a tactic could be classified as appeal to authority, hearsay, and cherrypicking.  I argue that the scientific consensus position is actually based on much more than that — the analysis over a century of evidence concerning how nature behaves – and that the support for this position is there for all to see in the public record.  It just can’t be given justice in a blog post response!

    You just have to take the time and effort to evaluate it fairly.  It takes ALOT of time and effort because were talking tens of thousands of papers written for specifically for scientists.  Luckily, there are distillations of that information out there that are more accessible.  Many of them.

  • Bogs_Dollocks

    cocotartufo 8 minutes ago in reply to Bogs_Dollocks wrote:

    “Water is a greenhouse gas, in the sense that it is largely transparent to visible light but absorbs heat radiation.  However, water is constantly precipitating out of the atmosphere, whereas CO2  does not.  In fact an H2O molecule only spends an average of 5-10 days in the atmosphere before it is leaves as raindrops.  Models indicate that the only real way to increase the average amount of water in the atmosphere is to increase or decrease temperature of the atmosphere on average.  Only greenhouse gases that do not precipitate can have a persistent effect on climate.  H2O vapor then amplifies the effect of these gases – in other words the effect of CO2 depends on water vapor being a greenhouse gas.”

    The exposition above may be best summed up as being not even wrong.

    What matters in the case of water vapour is not the residency time in the atmosphere of a particular water molecule [as all water molecules are identical] but the total amount of water molecules in the atmosphere at any given time. Water molecules are constantly entering the atmosphere through evaporation and leaving through condensation and precipitation. What matters is the net amount of water molecules in the atmosphere at any given time.  Water vapour in the atmosphere varies between 1% to 4%  at the earth’s surface [and ~0.40% averaged across the atmosphere] compared to  ~ 0.039% for CO2.

    The other important factor is the infrared absorption spectrum of water compared to CO2 and, here again, water dominates.

    [seems to be a limit to the number of replies so a new post]

  • willismg

    I liken this to the way “kids these days” don’t seem to actually play anything anymore…  they play video games about the things we used to actually play, like football, baseball, and even musical instruments. 

    I had to deal with people like this in a former life at an “International Nuclear Reactor Vendor” that shall remain nameless.  They were trying to get their new “passive safety” plant approved by the NRC but one of  their existing accident simulation models couldn’t handle the low pressure conditions in this new type of plant.  Even though I was the “expert” for this particular simulation package, the dinosaurs wouldn’t listen to me when I told them that simply typing “GO” over and over wasn’t gonna fix the problem.

    Eventually, a trusted associate and I had to go rogue and just upgrade the models to more appropriately account for (read: re-introduce) terms in the momentum equation that had been “engineering judgemented” out of the original formulation due to then existing computational limitations (both speed and memory). 

    Once we did this, and things started to fall into line, my associate and I were only begrudgingly credited with actually saving the licensing of the design.  We both left soon after.

    Feynman’s one of my favorites…  I make every student in my entry level engineering course read his critique of the Challenger explosion investigation as an example of just what clear thinking is and isn’t.

    Sorry for the war story, but my credentials were questioned by one of these folks the other day.

  • chriscolose

    The below discussion about water vapor (between Bog_Dollocks and cocotartufo) is a good example of how technical information can become cluttered in confusion as it makes its way from the peer-reviewed literature, to news or blog articles, to comment threads such as this.  This type of forum is how people form opinions; the corresponding frustration by scientists that the wrong opinions are being formed (and echoed by people who should know better) is what the author erroneously calls ¨thuggery.¨

     It is somewhat like the game played in elementary school when a teacher whispers a semi-complicated sentence into the ear of a student, and that student needs to whisper it into the ear of the next student, and so forth; finally, it is almost certain that by the time the last student repeats it back to the teacher, the original meaning is lost and convoluted (this game is often played to emphasize that spreading rumors is bad).  In the climate wars, you can modify this analogy by throwing in a few students into the middle of the line who know the real sentence, but garble it on purpose, and tell it to the next student.

    Water vapor is always present in the atmosphere, and is always contributing to the terrestrial greenhouse effect.  CO2 accounts for about a third of the clear-sky greenhouse effect in the tropics and a somewhat greater portion in the drier extratropics; with clouds, it still accounts for at least 20% of the greenhouse effect, relative to water vapor which constitutes about half (e.g., Pierrehumbert et al 2007; Schmidt et al 2010).  Even this does not tell the whole picture because removing all the CO2 in the atmosphere would effectively collapse the water vapor greenhouse, and plunge the Earth into an ice world (Voigt and Marotzke, 2010).  It is therefore hard to imagine how water vapor is ¨dominating¨ CO2, as opposed to complimenting it, with CO2 serving as the sturdy scaffold upon which the terrestrial greenhouse effect operates.

    That people are still throwing around the ¨CO2 is minor¨ line, just because it is a small part of the atmosphere by volume, or bother supplement that with irrelevant red herrings like ¨plants need CO2!!¨ just shows that they have no understanding of atmospheric radiative transfer or have bothered to follow the years of literature on the subject.

    It is not thuggery to say that people who do not want to properly educate themselves should not comment so confidently about why the scientific community is all wrong.

  • willismg

    For JH,

    Actually, I’m the one trying to get folks to back off of the reliance on the “Bible” of human created computer models.  I think that makes me Galileo, and the modellers the Church, nez pas?

  • EricAdler

    Mr Wood,
    It seems that you are either disingenuous or ignorant of the reality here. The fact is that Mann and Mashey are striking back at those who unfairly besmirched his reputation, including Wegman, and  Ball, who do not engage in the sort of  rigorous testing of Climate Science that you claim to desire. Add to that, the machinations of the right wing politician, Cuccinelli, the AG of Virginia, who is on a fishing expedition looking through university of Virginia records for material that he could use to discredit Michael Mann. If Mann’s critics stuck to publishing in peer reviewed publications, there would be no problems of the sort that you point to. Instead of doing so, Ball, using newspaper articles and blogs,  and Cucinelli using his power as Attorney General of Virginia,  are trying to smear the reputation of Michael Mann. They are not doing any rigorous testing of the conclusions of Mann or any other climate scientists.

    In fact Wegman’s criticisms of the original “Hockey Stick” paper, based on statistical arguments were conclusively shown to be incorrect. The Hockey Stick graph has been shown to be robust, using different forms of statistical analysis and different data selection criteria. There are about a dozen papers that have validated the conclusions of Mann’s original Hockey Stick paper.

    The thoery that greenhouse gases are responsible for warming the earth and making it habitable is 152 years old, and is well established tenet of climate science. In fact two opinion surveys show the 97% of climate researchers accept
    the theory that humans are responsible for the current trend of global
    warming. To give laymen the impression that opposition to the theory of AGW deserves the same weight as the consensus of climate scientists is to misinform the public.

    The history of global warming theory shows that opposition to it in the US arose from right wing think tanks that were opposed to environmental and health regulation, and funded a few scientists to try to debunk what is a sound theory, which is supported by principles of physics and all kinds of data, including radiation, satellite observations and paleoclimatology.

    Since you admit that you don’t know much about climate science, maybe you should stick to subjects you do understand.

  • cocotartufo

    Every fact you state is correct and actually in agreement with what I said.  Not only are those facts known to climate scientists, they are part and parcel of the models used to reproduce climate.  So while it sounds like you are arguing against the case, you actually are starting from the same assumptions they do…at least on a qualitative level.

    So I am not even wrong, and neither are you.

    The key fact that you left out is that water vapor condenses as precipitation at current conditions on earth, while CO2 does not.  The consequence is that when evaporation increases, condensation increases somewhere on earth to the same degree.  Moist warm air masses move quickly around the globe eventually cooling as they rise or move northward.  When they cool to the point where H2O becomes supersaturated, precipitation occurs and removes the water evaporated from other regions.  As a consequence of this loop, there is no way to increase average water content in our atmosphere substantially for the length of time needed to change climate unless you change temperature first, thereby increasing the average saturation point for water vapor.
     
    It’s not just a theoretical construct either.  We have seen water vapor respond very quickly to changes in global cooling due to Pinatubo, just as predicted by the physics.  The decline in water vapor amplified the effects of that volcano on the climate by changing the ability of the atmosphere to absorb infrared.  When the volcanic aerosols left the atmosphere a couple years later, the water vapor increased again, responding to the increase in solar radiation hitting the earth.  Water vapor is a feedback that amplifies any factor changing heat coming into the earth system – that includes solar radiation, aerosols from volcanoes and other greenhouse gases.
     
    By comparison, increases in CO2 are not matched by equivalent changes in CO2 absorption by the oceans or by land plants. That’s why CO2 has increased in the atmosphere in response to anthropogenic inputs.  CO2 as a consequence has lasting effects on climate as a greenhouse gas that are amplified by water vapor. 

    As I stated, this isn’t new.  It has been the understanding of climate scientists all along.

    I see Chris Colose has responded in more quantitive terms below.  He actually is a climate scientist, so i defer to him.
     

  • EricAdler

    The arguments of the so called heretics have been thoroughly refuted and are getting weaker as time passes. The evolution of climate is proceeding as would be expected from global warming theory. Record heat waves,  droughts and record rainfalls are occurring with increasing frequency in the 21st century.  Since you don’t know the science very well, you don’t understand this.

    Freeman Dyson, is not  a climate scientist of any kind. He is a professional “skeptic” and likes the attention that he gets from his position.

    No one is being lynched.  Climate Science deniers are being justifiably criticized by scientists because their arguments are just bogus.

  • dank48

    Thanks, EricAdler.

    Q.E.D.

  • EricAdler

    You are making a strawman argument here. The IPCC report recognizes that some people in some places may benefit from climate change, but overall, the effects of sea level rise, more intense drought and rainfall events and heatwaves will hurt the habitat for man, existing species and will hurt food production. These are scientific conlcusions, and are borne out by recent  drought and flooding events across the globe in recent years, as well as melting of sea ice and glaciers.
    If you can’t see that this is supported by basic science, you either don’t want to see the obvious, or you don’t understand science.  The ideas are basic and simple. Higher temperatures mean more evaporation of water which will dry out land areas which are already dry, and evaporate more water from the oceans making it rain heavily when it rains. Higher temperatures are melting glaciers which will make sea level rise.

    The principles are obvious. The computer modelling of climate serves to provide statistical projections which provide us with numbers, and more detailed projections.

  • cocotartufo

    So your saying that, Hansen’s views were surpressed, but because he complained about being suppressed, he was not suppressed?  How does that figure?

  • betterschool

    Again (and again, and again) I take no position on the impact issue. Apply a simple taxonomy to the true believers’ comments here. Virtually all of their attention is devoted to proving that we humans are contributing to global warming via CO2. Fine. I think the evidence of a contribution is solid. The evidence that the modifiable component of potential change would have a material impact on reducing CO2 is less clear and more contested. Also contested in the net impact and to what extent the curves flatten due to other factors. Notice that I said that not everything is clear. I didn’t say I’m on the other side, nor am I. Absolutely no unsolicited attention has been given to the “So what?” question. After I asked it at least five times, I got one reference. I checked it out and found that the claims are vague and based on speculation and untested models. I used to develop computer models and I can tell you that you don’t want to bet your 401K on them. Reading the reference provided, I found that at least one potential impact of modest warming might be positive (increased global agricultural productivity). I commented on that separately and won’t repeat here. Do you notice how you and your gang of zealots assume that anyone who asks a question is in the other side? What does that tell you? Do you see similarities to Joseph McCarthy? The Church of the middle ages? Sometimes a question is just a question. Among real scientists, that is almost always the case. Dichotomous thinking is small thinking.

  • JonasN

    Amazing EricA …

    Both Wegman and the NAS-repport arrived at the same conclusion regarding Mann’s hockey stick: It was flaw-riddled and (inappropriately) cherrypicked data, and the claimed conclusions (ie ‘unprecedented in 1000 years’) were wild guesses, and nothing else.

    True is that if you use the exact same data, and accept the very same assumptions about what these proxies show, you’d still get a hockestick, but a tilted one, and errorbars so wide that you cannot claim anything.

    Mann has received plenty of criticism for both the work, the methods used, the data selection, and for not disclosing neither data used nor his calculations. Rightly so! And many years later all this criticism and the suspicions av poor statistics and data treatment and selevtion proved correct. No one else than Mann is repsonsible for that fact.

    The various attempts to discredit Wegman (on completely irrelevant details) are all smoke and mirrors. And neither the Midieval Warm Period (MWP) nor the Little Ice Age (LIA) will go away, regardless of how many times Manns original data is tortured. The point there is that the proxies do not suffice to make such definite claims, and some of them (Bristlecones) are widely known to be inappropriate for the purpose.

    Another problem was the ‘hide the decline’, ie proof that these proxies weren’t proxies for temperature. But that is a separate issue, and Mann is criticized for that too. As he is for repeatedly (!) using the Tiljander sediment series upside down.

    Point in case:

    Mann has repeatedly shown that he is not primarily intrested in finding out the best knowledge about historical temperature records. Instead, his interest very clearly was (is?)  directed towards finding/using/massaging data to fit a desired (and nowadays well known) shape. And the leaked Climategate mails confirmed both that, and that his colleauges were aware of this.

    Tim Ball and Cuccinelli have nothing to do with this. Neither are Wegman or the NAS-panel to blame. The fact that Mann today is defending his tainted reputation with wild accusations, inflamed rethoric, political outburts and legal threats may possibly be understandable for the cornered and hurt ‘animal’ he is. But noone else but him got him into that corner. Hubris and mediocracy just don’t play well together (nor individually).

    As I said in the beginnig: It is amazing how bitterly some people try to defend both sloppy craftmanship and indefensible practices. But as you are aware of, you are not alone. Only in this thread have we seen the Masheys, Naumers, Hayneses, Mandias and many more.

    Unfortunately, this is not restricted only to the climate scare hangarounds, but also (presumably) reputable scientists who launch bitter counter attacks and both defend and try to rescue such poor practices with all means available.

    And I think this is what Peter Wood’s article is about. The entrenched bitter and personal warfare coming from the side who has had all the money, all the media and all the politicians on its side. With only slight and minor shifts in that balance in recent years.

    You yourself try the old worn out stupidities about right wing think tanks and funding. I can promise you, Eric A, that the problems the AGW-hypothesis is having nowadays, in no way are caused by those minor players. The main factors are reality (sound science and data) and the far overreaching by its proponents and all the activists who considered it as the best gravy train ever …

  • cocotartufo

    Actually, John is correct.  I could say that your rush to disparage him and climate science indirectly without thinking to look up what he is talking about is symbolic of the problem with “skeptics.”  But that also would be a logical fallacy.

  • willismg

    I’m not one for hero-worship, or pulling rank, or any of that, but I think Freeman Dyson deserves a little better than “professional ‘skeptic’”.  No respect….

  • willismg

    tee-hee….

  • chriscolose

    P.S. I am a grad student in atmospheric science…

  • willismg

    APS,

    You really don’t get it, do you….

  • EricAdler

    JonasN
    Wegman’s criticism of the Hockey Stick paper, concerning the use of non  centered PCA representation of the data was actually proven wrong. He himself did not use the appropriate procedure to cut off the number of components.

    The NRC report weakened the Mann paper’s  conclusions somewhat regarding the time period in which the increase in temperature could be called unprecedented saying that the uncertainty in the MWP was underestimated, but did not attack the paper in the way you represented. It actually endorsed most of the methodology and conclusions and said that they had been cofirmed by subsequent studies.

    http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11676&page=3
    Here is what they said about the Mann Hockey Stick paper:

    “…The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th
    century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at
    least the last 1,000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been
    supported by an array of evidence that includes both additional
    large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and pronounced changes
    in a variety of local proxy indicators, such as melting on ice caps and
    the retreat of glaciers around the world, which in many cases appear to
    be unprecedented during at least the last 2,000 years…..”

    It is pretty clear that you are echoing the denier blogosphere and don’t know what you are talking about. The opposition to global warming originated with the same crowd that tried to exonerate cigarette smoke and sulfur pollution as health risks. That is history.

  • EricAdler

    I should have said “professional contrarian”.  Dyson was certainly a great thinker in his youth but his day has passed.

  • JonasN

    Eric A

    People who feel that the need to use words as ‘denier’ or explain the today problems of the AGW-hypothesis, at least the more wild versions of it (w/ large positive feedbacks) with reference to tobacco lobby or Exxon, etc usually have zero to contripute with. Echo-chambers is a good analogy ..

    The question is: Why are you guys so desperate?

  • jsg077

    What has always struck me as odd about the debate over whether human activity contributes to global warming is the seemingly disproportionate consequences of the yea or nay hypotheses. 

    If AGW exists, on the one hand, it would seem to be a matter of some urgency to take plausible steps to ameliorate the consequences. If AGW does not exist, on the other hand, the consequences of said steps could be a needless cost burden. 

    It seems to me that the risk that AGW is correct outweighs the risk of imposing a needless cost burden. 

    This whole debate reminds of the satirical novel “War with the Newts,” in which the discovery of a potentially dangerous new species of salamanders leads to endless scientific discussion of whether the creatures really are dangerous, whereupon the salamanders take over the world. 

  • EricAdler

    Better school. You said,

    “Their religious like commitment to the idea that all changes accrue to
    the negative is not supported by any science I can see. I can see the
    concern but not the conclusions.”

    I pointed out the scientific principles that point strongly to negative consequences. There is nothing religious about this simple science.

    Now you claim,

    “I take no position on the impact issue.”

    and you proceed to criticize the idea that humans can reduce the emissions of CO2.
    You say,
    “The evidence that the modifiable component of potential change would
    have a material impact on reducing CO2 is less clear and more contested.

    The data clearly shows that human activities including land use and fossil fuel use, are responsible for CO2 increase. Human caused emissions represent twice the increase in atmospheric  CO2, making it clear that the natural environment is absorbing CO2 over time. It also is clear that alternative forms of energy, reforestation can reduce our CO2 emissions. To contest the data which shows that humans have the capacity to reduce or stop the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere is blind denialist nonsense.

    Your reference to McCarthyism in this context is overblown nonsense.

  • EricAdler

    Chris,
    I don’t agree that the misconceptions about climate science are related to the problem of serial communication of a story from person to person. The real reason that non scientists misconstrue the science, is opinion motivated bias. In the case of climate science, the statistics show that people who are not climate scientists, are prone to form opinions on the basis of political orientation. Conservatives oppose the theory that humans are causing global warming, or deny that global warming  is bad, or in some cases that it exists.

  • EricAdler

    Peter Wood wrote:
    “Is anthropogenic global warming (AGW) a valid scientific theory?  Is it
    well supported by the empirical data or is it mostly an artifact of
    computer modeling?  I don’t have answers to these questions.  I stand,
    rather, on the side of those who favor rigorous scientific inquiry,
    transparency, and openness.  I am not a climate scientist, but neither
    do I cede the whole matter of answering such questions to the designated
    experts.  Good science doesn’t limit itself to the views of narrow-cast
    specialists.  Valid observations, corrective criticism, competing
    hypotheses, and rigorous testing can and often do arise from other
    sources.”

    These are good questions, but they can easily be answered by consulting an account of the history of global warming. Instead of spending a few hours to read up on the subject from an easily accessible internet reference written by a science historian:
    http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.htm
    the author of the blog post would prefer to remain ignorant, or as he characterize it, “unbiased”.

    It is indeed possible that non scientists could contribute to progress in science, but most of the time  what we are getting from the non scientist bloggers on the subject of climate science is misinformation  and ignorance. There is no evidence of any real contribution from such people as McCintyre or Watts. All we are getting is flyspecking.

  • EricAdler

    You are talking trash. The history of the opposition to the AGW theory has been well documented. The movement was spearheaded by Seitz and Singer and right wing think tanks.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt

  • JonasN

    As I said Eric, Naomi Oreskes nonsensical book of smear is exactly what Wood addressed in his article. It has absolutely nothing to do with any relevant questions. But yes, it is fodder for the ranting mob of CAGW bystanders.

    And yes, as I said before: The NRC report criticized Mann for precisely the same shortcomings as Wegman did. The fact that you quote a different part won’t change that. Of course, the criticism was phrased differently (being commissioned from the ‘friendly side’), padded a little with other stuff and tucked away in the running text and discussions. Nevertheless, its chairman Gerry North gave testimony that “Dr. Wegman’s criticisms of the statistical methodology in the papers by Mann et al were consistent with our findings”. He/they also noted that the reconstructions (although others confirmed their ”qualitatively similar” shape) had less (ie low) confidence prior to ~1600, that bristlecone pines (which both gave the fairly straight handle and the sharp blade up-tick) were poor proxies, and came only from a small region:

    “For periods prior to the 16th century, the Mann et al. (1999) reconstruction that uses this particular principal component analysis technique is strongly dependent on data [ie bristlecones] from the Great Basin region in the western United States” 

    http://orsted.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11676&page=113

    And this from the friendly side! All this is known since long, and obvious for anyone interested. Get over it! Mann is still mining for hockeysticks (but archives his work better) 

    I find it rather amusing how bitterly those many activists struggle to rescue splinters from the hockeystick. Most of them without a clue about what the core issues are … only google-mining for supportive phrases.

    Hilarious!

  • EliRabett

    Godwin.

  • EliRabett

     ”Did you want to offer your children to be brutally gang-raped and
    then horribly tortured before being reminded of their parents’ socialist
    beliefs and actions?” the email reportedly says.

    “Burn in hell. Or in the main street, when the Australian public finally lynches you.”

    That threatening  enough for you Phil or you want to parse it a bit more?

  • EliRabett

     Rik, everything else isn’t “equal” among other things, water vapor will increase resulting in a net change of about 3 C for doubling CO2.  There are several lines of observations that lead to this conclusion, including study of past climate, observations and theoretical physics.

  • EliRabett

     John was being very nice.  However, let us proceed.  The original poster was either

    a.  Unfamiliar with the large literature across many fields dealing with the issue raised or
    b.  Disingenuous or
    c.  Lying

    in offering a false dichotomy,  Your choice.

    The “as far as I can see” is card forcing, because either the commenter cannot see very far, or is misleading, because there are many lines of evidence that increasing greenhouse gas concentrations will lead to significant and difficult to deal with climate change, but it does allow a simple path of retreat: “I had taken my glasses off”

    Perhaps you would prefer that as a series of videos. Allow Eli to blog whore.

  • EricAdler

    JonasN,
    You wrote:
    “As I said Eric, Naomi Oreskes nonsensical book of smear is exactly what
    Wood addressed in his article. It has absolutely nothing to do with any
    relevant questions. But yes, it is fodder for the ranting mob of CAGW
    bystanders. ”

    Your  use of the epithet “smear” doesn’t make the events cited in Oreskes book go away or change any of the facts. The same people paid to impugn the science behind the theory that cigarette smoke causes cancer were employed to deny the theory that fossil fuel CO2 emissions are going to cause global warming. This is a historical fact and is well documented in her book. By denying that this is the case, you provide legitimacy to the label denier.

    The fact is that opposition to regulation is the root of much of the opposition to the scientific findings which support the theory of AGW.

    One of Wegman’s claims was that non centered PCA used to produce the hockey stick graph would have produced a hockey stick even if the data were totally due to noise. This was totally erroneous, because Wegman’s analysis did not include the correct number of principal components needed to analyse the data that he used. In fact centered and non centered application of principal components analysis to Mann’s data both give the same results when carried out properly.

    Wegman or his students, (it isn’t clear who did the actual work) were clearly incompetent and sloppy. Despite this, their attack on the validity of Mann’s work is still alive in the blogosphere among global warming deniers, and the  uninformed.  Wegman did a hatchet job on Michael Mann using incorrect and sloppy analysis. Mashey deserves praise for exposing Wegman for the charlatan that he is. Turnabout is fair play in this case.

  • arthurpsmith

    Several commenters and the original article here suggest that supporters of the scientific view on climate change are showing some sort of desperation in their actions and comments. I see some frustration, but it hardly seems desperate – most of the comments have been patient and quite reasoned, many with citations to reputable sources. On the other hand, there have been some very wild, ill-thought-out and short-tempered comments from the other side. The wild over-hyping of the recent Spencer-Braswell paper looks like a case study in desperation. So this claim seems much more to be a classical case of psychological projection – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

    Why might the denial side be so desperate right now? A few clues suggest themselves:
    * It’s been a very hot summer in some places
    * The recent cooling La Nina has ended; the solar cycle is also ramping up so the next couple of years will almost certainly break global temperature records, barring a major volcano
    * Serious candidates for the presidency from the Republican party are abandoning climate denial: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-valk/huntsmans-climate-stand-s_b_913285.html
    along with respected commentators like Jim Manzi.
    * The recent deficit focus of Congress and the White House has greatly increased the prospects for some form of removal of oil/coal subsidies or a plain carbon tax to raise revenue
    * News International, responsible for more climate-related obfuscation than any other media conglomerate, is in some hot water with the phone-hacking scandal
    * Christopher Monckton, lauded by the denial side including Peter Wood, has received a very tepid reception on his recent tour of Australia and New Zealand. That schtick is wearing thin.
    * The electric car market is taking off and the general public can now see an end to our dependency on oil.
    * Investment in wind and solar worldwide and in the US has been soaring, and prices have continued to drop – if it continues fossil fuels will find themselves priced out of major markets in a decade, reason for those invested in those resources to be generally quite desperate.

    Reality will always win out in the end. What is the best way to help others to accept it? Well, we’re sort of trying everything here. With great patience…

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rik-Van-Riel/639830381 Rik Van Riel

    Indeed, low water vapor appears to result in a positive feedback. However, clouds and thunderstorms appear to be negative feedbacks. Other aerosols appear to be negative feedbacks.

    The jury is still very much out on what the total feedbacks will look like.

  • JonasN

    Its funny how you continuously need to call other people incompetent, disingeneous, now even charltans. Especially given your own ‘performance’ here and on the matter.

    Regarding using (red, no trend) noise as indata, the NAS-report says (on p 90):

    “”McIntyre and McKitrick (2003) demonstrated that under some conditions the leading principal component can exhibit a spurious trendlike appearance, which could then lead to a spurious trend in the proxy-based reconstruction.” and then goes on to explain how this may happen. They even provide an example of their own, shown on the next page in Figure 9-2.

    How is that for “totally erroneous”? The blogger DeepClimate also tried to find things wrong, and the best he could come upp with was that in the figure McIntyre & McKitrick hade used in the manuscript, the had used some such random runs where this effect was visible, and that thes were not chosen entirely at random. A very moot point if you check the substans (althoug nothing I’d expect from you)

    Seriously:

    Wich part of “Dr. Wegman’s criticisms of the statistical methodology in the papers by Mann et al were consistent with our findings” do you find so hard to understand? Or are you really saying that the NAS-panel also was sloppy and inkompetent?

    And equally seriously:

    Are you really a denier of both the Little Ice Age and the Midevial Warm Period? And previous warm periods too?

    Because that is what your defense of Manns attempt mounts up to!

    And please, for get Oreskes, she had her 15 minutes of fame when Al Gore used her methodologically deeply flawed (unreviewed) Science-letter för his stupid claim of consensus. Neither they, nor the people in her book caused Mann to do a sloppy jobb trying to rewrite earths paleo-history. Nor did they cause Phil Jones to make up urbanization in China. And the definitely did not cause the missing heat in both atmosphere and oceans since more than a decade. As usual, you get the argument the wrong way around.

    And you seem to have gotten Mashey wrong too. What he did was to compare pieces of text. And if the matched, he’d cry foul over ‘plagiarism’, and if the words didn’t match, he cried foul over’ misrepresented. 250 pages up and down. A bit obsessive if you ask me! And no criticism of the actual content, the substance of report. Same thing with Bradleys complaint to, threats and bargaing attempts with George Mason Univ / Wegman. Like spoilt kids when being told that they were wrong.

    Look Eric, I dont know if you are a highschool kid, but you seem to completely have swallowed the fairytale narrative of the saint-like unselfish good guys on the one side, and the evil, scheeming, moneyloaded but incompetent villians on the other. And everytime I point you to where you simple understanding of things, in reallity is a little bit more nuanced and complicated, you simply jump to the next wild accusation and ‘explanation’ for … Yes, for what exactly?

    What are you defending so desperately? The climate scare? The fairytale narrative? Your ego and fear of having been misled? Embarassment over that haveing bought into doomsday proåhecies that won’t materialize (this time either)? What is it with you guys? Really!?

  • JonasN

    You say it ” .. doesn’t make the events cited in Oreskes book go away or change any of the facts”

    You are of course perfectly aware of that Oreskes and Conways book has the pupose to smear, to cast doubt and suspicion, the miscredit, persons. Through innuendo and cloak and dagger style conspirations and countless ‘connections’ with no other merit than guit by association. Have you even read the book yourself?

    Anyway, you are obviously a bit naïve but not entierly stupid. Not even you really think that their book is the objective historical description of the facts only the facts, and that nothing relevant is omitted. That both sides of the fence have arguments and positions objetively and fairly described in that book for the reader to make up his mind. Not even you believe that! (Or, am I wrong there?)

    But still you refer to it like gospel, and here although completely irrelevant to how the climate works, or what historical temperatures the earth has gone through. You even try it as an accusation against me!?

    Really!? How exactly were you thinking there? Were you thinking at all? Maybe, that attack is the best defence. And that you’d regain some initiative if you manage to turn the conversation to stupid talking points about oil funding, tobacco lobby and think tanks?

    As I stated very early: People who feel that they need to use the D-word, or come up with those stupid diversions/allegations, hardly ever have anything of substance to contribute. Usually they barely rehash what they have picked up elsewhere, memorized, and often without even understanding what the words mean, what their side’s argument actually amounts to (if formulated correctly) …

  • JonasN

    Interesting, Arthur P Smith

    But hardly convincing, a funny but rather disparate list of points with a load of wishful thinking thrown in. But I agree that reality will prevail and win in the long run.

    I also notice that in your patient and reasoned comment you feel that the use of the D-word is repeatedly necessary. I have noted that this often is accompanied by an almost obsessive need to demean and miscredit the other persons personality, morals, ethics, character flaws etc. Instead!

    Often completely unrelated to the topic under discussion. As if they meant that the other side’s personality will make the case, ie will be the argument for their own position and viewpoints.

    Now there you have a fine example of psycological projection ..

    But hey, maybe that’s true. Maybe that is the core of the argument …

    :-)

  • dank48

    Could you be slightly more complete in your disavowal of polytheism, making graven images, taking the Lord’s name in vain, failing to remember the sabbath and keep it holy, dishonoring your father and your mother, committing murder, committing adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, and coveting that which is thy neighbor’s? Before we go on, you understand.

  • betterschool

    You forgot to ask if ‘arthurpsmith’ is being paid by someone. As he implies with respect to Mr. Wood, anyone receiving compensation for his work is suspect. This leaves us in the capable hands of the retired, the unemployed, and the unemployable.

  • dank48

    Thanks for the reminder, but actually–for once–I didn’t forget. It’s just that you managed to find an example of something that, like lab rats vs. lawyers, I simply will not do.

  • betterschool

    I wasn’t serious. The medium I suppose.

  • dank48

    You list eight “reasons” for the desperation you see in your opponents, desperation that is certainly more visible to you than to me, but perhaps you have better vision. Of these eight, two are physical and therefore have a place in the AGW discussion:

    * It’s been a very hot summer in some places.
    * The recent cooling La
    Nina has ended; the solar cycle is also ramping up so the next couple of
    years will almost certainly break global temperature records, barring a
    major volcano.

    Six of your “reasons” are social:

    * Serious candidates for the presidency . . .
    *
    The recent deficit focus of Congress and the White House . . .
    * News International,
    responsible for more climate-related . . ., is in some hot water . . .
    *
    Christopher Monckton, . . . ,
    has received a very tepid reception . . .
    * The electric car market is taking off and the general public . . . .
    *
    Investment in wind and solar worldwide and in the US has been soaring,
    . . .

    Even if every one of these latter assertions is true, so what? Scientific truth, as has been pointed out a few dozen times in this discussion, is not determined by a vote, a poll, what politicians say or think or do, how well received speakers are, or the market for electric cars and alternative energy.

    Do you really expect anyone to find these “reasons” compelling? Frankly, Arthur, it seems to me the winds of desperation are blowing in a different direction.

    And this leads me back to what I take to be the main point of  Peter Woods’s original article. It seems to me that the incivility, underhanded tactics, and general disdain for fair play exhibited by many but by no means all who maintain that AGW is undeniable may be motivated by insecurity. The truth will out, perhaps not quite so promptly as we’d like, but it will out, no matter what we say or how well or ill we behave toward each other.

    No matter how it turns out, and I bet it won’t be entirely one-sided either way, behaving decently to each other will save those in the right from having treated the rest unjustly and it will save those in the wrong from having been even more wrong.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    You are breathtakingly delusional.  
    * We are heading into a double dip La Niña.  Look at the ensemble forecast…
    http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/CDB/Forecast/figf4.shtml
    * The Tea Party will make sure the Republican candidate is not a climate nutbar like all the Dems.  It is political poison for any candidate right now and rightly so.
    * The recent deficit and debt focus has already led the Republican House to specifically eliminate funding for the IPCC and other climate related scams.  When they take the Senate and Presidency next year the gravy train will officially come to an end.  
    * Government Motors sold 125 Volts nationwide in July.  No one wants to pay $42,000 for a clown car that needs massive federal subsidies just to show up on lots.
    * News international has…what, exactly to do with the crashing of the climate change myth?
    * Wind and solar will never provide more than a thimbleful of energy for the free world but thanks for reminding us to make sure that subsides for it are removed after we take Congress back.

    We’re educated.  We’re angry.  We are extremely motivated.  We outnumber you and we will outlast you.  Give up now while you have a smidgen of dignity left.  :)

  • cocotartufo

    Out of curiosity.  I have never understood why the Tea Party is so against technologies that whould make the US energy independent, so that we could save money on wars, help balance the debt, keep from being blackmailed politically by dodgy foreign entities, etc. 

     Plus, why dis the Volt when it is american made?  Why cede that market to foreign entities?  We should be promoting it, no?  It all seems strange for a movement devoted to fiscal and conservatism and patriotism.  What is the sense there?

    These should be points of common ground.  Why aren’t they?  I don’t get it.

    BTW…be careful what you wish for with la Nina. That’s is partly to blame for the ridiculous weather in Texas and the Southeast.

  • cocotartufo

    Jonas,

    I’m sure a somebody may have been unhappy about it…but do you really think it’s possible for a small number of people to get a position statement adopted by a large scientific society without the agreement of the vast majority of it’s members?  It is not easy to get such things done.  Scientists don’t like people speaking for them!

    I actually personally know 4-5 of the 250 members of the national academy of sciences from climate related disciplines who signed the May 2010 letter in support of the consensus on climate change that was published in Science.  I can assure you they did not sign by accident.  From what I know of the others I know less well, they didn’t either.  One of them is even a member of the National Association of Scholars!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    The reply is to poor Mr. Smith.  It is no surprise that you don’t know what the Tea Party stands for or believes in and I can assure you the first thing we are dismissive of is strawman arguments.  We are against subsidies, period.  Your wind and solar and unicorn power barely contribute anything and only at the price of endless subsidy with tax dollars.  Besides it is ridiculous to waste time on them when all of our energy needs can be supplied by North American oil, coal, and nuclear power.  By all means start up your own companies, raise your own capital, and create the first dilithium crystals.  Just do it with your own money.  

    The Volt is a vastly overpriced POS sold to upper middle class white liberals to assuage their guilt.  They’re built by union thugs for a company that doesn’t even exist except for, once again, massive government intervention.  They’re built by people who would just as soon lynch me for being a Christian and believing in limited government.  

    Common ground?  The freaking vice-president of the United States thinks I’m a terrorist.  The only ground I’m interested in is the one you people will be laid out on.  You people have never been interested in a common ground.  That would imply you engaging in some form of persuasion.  You are the secular version of a jihadi.

    You do not want to persuade us so much as you want us to Submit.

  • cocotartufo

    You do realize, Mike, that all those fossil fuel industries also receive subsidies.  Twelve times the subsidies that renewables get according to Bloomberg.  Also, you are communicating with me using a technology that itself was invented with government investment in R&D.

    I don’t think I’ll comment on the rest since I’m not sure your being serious.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mike-Mangan/100000886420382 Mike Mangan

    Really?  Name a subsidy that the oil companies get.  You can’t because they’re tax breaks.  They amount to about $4 billion a year and some of them are the same depreciation allowances that every other company gets.  But, as a Tea Partier, I’ll be more than happy to see an extremely streamlined tax system that benefits no one in particular.  We are definitely opposed to the corporate cronyism practiced by the scumbags at GE.  No more manipulating the government so they can sell worthless wind turbines and pay no federal taxes on billions in profits.  

    Occasional government success in RnD is overwhelmed by the eventual destruction of the economy.  You people fear a couple of degrees of warming more than $15 trillion in national debt, countless more trillions in unfunded state and federal pensions, a collapsing dollar, and the very real threat of hyperinflation.  You are economically illiterate, yet you always claim to be the smartest people in the room when it comes to science.  

  • EliRabett

     The are out determining damages, which look to be very substantial.  You are basically doing the Pat Michaels thing, sort of accidentally on purpose ignoring the forcings and feedbacks you don’t much like  See this for the Congressional version

  • EricAdler

    JonasN wrote:

    “Regarding using (red, no trend) noise as indata, the NAS-report says (on p 90):

    “”McIntyre
    and McKitrick (2003) demonstrated that under some conditions the
    leading principal component can exhibit a spurious trendlike appearance,
    which could then lead to a spurious trend in the proxy-based
    reconstruction.” and then goes on to explain how this may happen. They even provide an example of their own, shown on the next page in Figure 9-2.

    How
    is that for “totally erroneous”? The blogger DeepClimate also tried to
    find things wrong, and the best he could come upp with was that in the
    figure McIntyre & McKitrick hade used in the manuscript, the had
    used some such random runs where this effect was visible, and that thes
    were not chosen entirely at random. A very moot point if you check the
    substans (althoug nothing I’d expect from you)”

    You clearly did not understand the DeepClimate blog. Looking at a lot of examples of noise data and finding a few examples where the principle component is a hockey stick doesn’t prove anything. DeepClimate points out that in about 1% of the cases equal numbers of upward and downward hockey sticks result from the noise generated data, when the first principal component is taken. In addition, the first principal component does not tell the whole story.

     Analysis of this sort does not stop at one principal component, or even 2 principal components. There is a procedure for determination of the number of principle components to use for represent the data. The cut off in the number of principle components is determined by looking at the noise level in the representation of the data. Wegman did not carry out this procedure and arbitrarily stopped at one principal component in his analysis of the artificial noise data.

    The crux of Wegman’s argument was, that using the generally accepted procedure of centered Principle Components Analysis, the first two principal components  looked very different from the non-centered PCA used by Mann et. al.,  which needed only two PC’s to represent the data. This is clearly an incorrect argument, because according to the accepted procedure five two PCA’s are needed to represent the data when centered PCA is used.  When the correct procedure is followed, both centered and non centered PCA produce practically the same graph.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/07/the-missing-piece-at-the-wegman-hearing/

     Unfortunately, the NAS committee did not recognize these errors, and gave Wegman too much credit. Actually Wegman merely echoed the faulty analysis of McIntyre and McKittrick, as was shown by DeepClimate, rather than investigating it thoroughly.

    I hope that I have cleared up this matter for you and that you will be grateful for this.

  • EricAdler

    JonasN wrote:

    You say it ” .. doesn’t make the events cited in Oreskes book go away or change any of the facts”

    “You
    are of course perfectly aware of that Oreskes and Conways book has the
    pupose to smear, to cast doubt and suspicion, the miscredit, persons.
    Through innuendo and cloak and dagger style conspirations and countless
    ‘connections’ with no other merit than guit by association. Have you
    even read the book yourself?”

    I am aware of no such thing. The book is accurate and well documented.

    “Anyway, you are obviously a bit
    naïve but not entierly stupid. Not even you really think that their book
    is the objective historical description of the facts only the facts,
    and that nothing relevant is omitted. That both sides of the fence have
    arguments and positions objetively and fairly described in that book for
    the reader to make up his mind. Not even you believe that! (Or, am I
    wrong there?)”

    The facts show that Seitz and Singer, who at one time were prestigious scientists, turned to opposing the science which shows that CFC’s , cigarette smoke, and global warming are damaging to health and the environment, and did so in the pay of right wing think tanks opposed to regulation. The fact is that they were paid to lend  their scientific prestige to these arguments, even though they were not experts in these fields.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Seitz

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Singer

    Your claim that this is a smear, and that I am naive does not make these facts go away. They are well documented by many references.

  • EricAdler

    Please show how the people on this blog who oppose Peter Woods claim that the AGW side is guilty of thuggery or mean spiritedness. We are entitled to challenge Woods’ characterization. Thuggery means threatening or violent behavior. It has not been evident in the comments we have made here.

    I second ArhturpSmith’s challenge that you find an “objective outside observer” who says that I or other pro AGW posters are behaving like thugs.
    Vigorous criticism of unsound science is not thuggery.

    Mann and other scientists have been the victims of slander by anti AGW bloggers, who have made charges of fraud. They are entitled to retaliate and challenge those who attack them personally.

  • EricAdler

    Bogs_Dollocks wrote:

    “Water vapour, including it’s condensed form of clouds, is the dominant green house gas. 

    CO2 is a minor green house gas.
    However, it is essential for plants and thus for all life on earth.”
    CO2 is not a minor greenhouse gas. Cocotartufo has pointed out how the effect of CO2 on temperature is amplified by water vapor. Your reply seems to ignore this point. It either is something you don’t  understand or something you don’t want to acknowledge.This mechanism has been understood by scientists since 1859 when John Tyndall did his experiments on the spectra of greenhouse gases. Anthropogenic global warming was described by Svante Arrhenius in 1896 and his calculations of the effect of CO2 were amazingly accurate for the times, even though he didn’t have computers that are available today.

  • willismg

    Mr. R.

    You forgot the actual correct answer…  d.  I was trying to be polite to people who I believe are behaving in a boorish manner.  I thought that maybe the example might sink in.

    Based on the tenor of the comments here, I shan’t make that mistake again.

  • JonasN

    Well Eric, if this book is so accurate, why aren’t you able to at least rudimentary give a somewhat accurate description of what these debates were about? Are you aware of that ‘regulation’ is politics, not science. I asked you before if you at all had read it yourself. Your lack of answer and many wikipedia references indicate that you probably have gotten your impressions from similar sources as where you have picked up your climate belief-system.

    Anyway, all that (Oreskes & Conway) has nothing at all to do with neither climate or historical temperatures.

    I reckon that is why you so obsessively cling to that meme …

  • EricAdler

    JonasN wrote:
     
    “Are you aware of that ‘regulation’ is politics, not science.
    I asked you before if you at all had read it yourself. You lack of
    answer and many wikipedia references indicate that you probably have
    gotten your impressions from similar sources as where you have picked up
    your climate belief-system.”

    I am certainly aware that regulation is politics. As I mentioned, opposition to government regulation is the raison d’etre for the right wing think tanks financed by conservatives and big business. They realized that if AGW is accepted by the general public, it would mean government regulation of CO2 emissions, similar to action taken against CFC’s and sulfate pollution of the air. That is why they employed these like minded old retired scientists to oppose the theory of AGW, after they used them to opposing the science that said cigarette smoke was bad.
    These are historical facts, whether I have read the whole book or just excerpts from the book doesn’t change these facts. Your opinion of how I obtained my information on climate science is irrelevant, but it is worth mentioning that I have a PhD in physics, although it is not in climate science. My scientific background is sufficient for me to recognize the most of the arguments against AGW presented by the leading deniers are bogus.

    “Anyway, all that (Oreskes & Conway) has nothing at all to do with neither climate or historical temperatures.

    I reckon that is wy you so obsesively cling to that meme …”

    The  topic we are discussing is Woods’ blog post, which complains that  many  who support the theory of AGW are very  angry at those that deny its validity. I am arguing that the history of the opposition, which is mainly motivated by politics, rather than by scientific evidence explains this.

    Some of the comments on this thread do involve discussion of the science. Based on what I have read here, this discussion mirrors what is going on in the wider blogosphere. Most of the opponents of AGW don’t really know what they are talking about.

    This will ultimately be settled by the scientific literature. At the present time, the overwhelming balance of papers and climate researchers support AGW. The small number of actual climate scientists, such as Lindzen, Spencer and Pielke who publish papers questioning AGW,  have embarrassed themselves with the poor quality of their publications.

  • JonasN

    cocotartufo, below (Sorry, I saw your reply first now)

    What I am saying is that the argument about ‘supporting accademies’ is invalid, and for two reasons:

    1) None of them asked their membership in any way about their opinions, and
    2) Opinions (regardless of how sincerely held) do not constitute scientific confirmation.

    Now, such academies and their board and management are usually populated with elderly academics who have been advancing on the ladder through the bureaucratic and political  systems (nothing wrong with that). They look after the interests (funding) of heir constituency, and have left the meticulous detail digging of hard reserach behind.

    What all these academis have done is just echo the IPCCs SPM report. Ie accepted it without questioning.

    I am absolutely certain that there exist those who support the proclamations, even based on their own fields. I have no problem with people signing with their own names.

    That is not the problem. The problem is that they purport the view that all members (‘the entire academy’) is behind them, Wich it definitely is not. And as I said, several attempts to challenge/modify those statements have been quashed. You might know of the APS. But the UK Royal Society actually changed their pronouncement quite significantly. Because members made a stink.

    Ie the reoccuring appeals to authority are false … also in this case. Thos who want to make the CAGW case still need to show us the data and reserach (and stop hiding behind unaämed others)

  • EricAdler

    Priniuf
    The single paper you are referencing, by  Spencer and Braswell, is an outlier in the literature on climate. It doesn’t make sense to hinge your argument on such a paper which is counter to the rest of the literature on Climate over the past 100 years, in which clouds are viewed as a feedback rather than a climate forcing mechanism. This paper has been heavily criticized by climate scientists. The paper does not actually appear in a journal devoted to climate research, because it probably couldn’t have passed peer review in such a journal.

    http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/07/misdiagnosis-of-surface-temperature-feedback/

  • EricAdler

    Since 97% of Climate Scientists accept the theory of AGW as correct, and the theory has been around for 116 years, it seems misinformed to claim that the issue is unsettled. In addition the overwhelming majority of the published literature has accepted this for some time.
    I think you owe it to yourself to read the “History of Global Warming”, by science historian and physicist, Spencer Weart, which is available online at:

    http://www.aip.org/history/climate/index.htm

    In my opinion 116 years of observation and scientific publications, and the agreement of 97% of scientists represent the “long haul” that you desire to validate the theory.

  • EricAdler

    JonasN,
    In your reply to cocotartufo you wrote:

    “So!? You claim the argument is “Increasing CO2
    increases heat stored in the atmosphere and earth” or that “the unique
    signatures of CO2′s effect on that heat balance have been observed”

    May
    I suggest to you that you first aquaint yourself with how the
    AGW-hypothesis is formulated, from your side of the fence!? To at
    least phrase the arguments from there correctly?”

    Based on what I know, cocotartufo correctly stated two of the supporting arguments for AGW.
    Your claim that he did not is simply false.

  • JonasN

    Eric, I expected as much. Your opionons about the book, its merits, its accuracy, are second hand, from blogs and like minded who confirm your beliefs.

    And yes, opposition to stupid leftist politics and spending is a major part of the reason d’etre for that side of the political spectrum wich doesn’t hold those political beliefs. That is a truism! Is this supposed to be a surprise? A revalation of any kind? A heavy argument regarding how the climate works? Of course its not. Its politics as it has always been!

    You seem to want to make an extra argument here, regarding say tobacco industry. With respect to how the climate works and what (if anything) controls its variations. But you never get there. You want to imply that intelligent people knowlingly tell lies about things (eg how the climate works) and are getting paid for it. And you are telling me such things as an accusation!?

    That is stupid beyond mere ignorance. I don’t get paid, I don’t have to lie, I don’t refer to neither Singer, Seitz, fossil fuels, tobacco, Koch Industries, Heartland or anything such for my arguments. The fact that some convene at the Heartland conference neither  bolsters nor waekens the strength of their arguments.

    It is the side who can’t debate the issues wich constantly need to bring upp irrelevant (and made up) connections.

    You are right that those defending the climate scare orthodoxy are very angry and need to resort to ‘denier’ and stupid accusations and made up connections, ad hom:s and guit by association. You do the same. And on every more factual issue  you’d brought up, you were given polite and factual answers, and links showing that you didn’t have a case (beyond mere belief). Over and over again. And every time you fails, you tried jumping to a new talking point, and abandoned it shortly after, and tried a new one.

    And not only did you try new ones, one after another. Many of the claims you tried out initially were just plain wrong. False! Untrue! Lies, if you wish, either by you or by those who fed you those in the first place. (But i reckon, you’d claim ignorance)

    Still, after having failed over and over again, you are the one making aggressive accusations that I (a person you do not know, and with superior knowledge about the debate) somehow have been bought or tricked into my views and the arguments I put forward!?

    Those would be some quite bold and preposterous insinuations. Especially since you never argue the facts (beyond the sikmplest ‘talking point version’), when you even get those wrong, nor are capable of standing your ground or showing any interest in learning things you you didn’t already believe in the first place.

    The only thin that remains are varios (stupid, irrelevant, false) ad hominem.

    Now you are trying to tell me about the (poor) quality of papers you haven’t even read, and which you wouldn’t understand a thin of if you tried?

    C’mon Eric. Do you really expect me to take your such ascertions seriously!? No, of course not. Nobody can. My question is rather why there are so many hang around supporters of your kind who only can contribute drivel ad homs and relay memorized phrases from pro-AGW-activist-blogs!?

    C’mon Eric, for some moments you tried to ‘instruct’ me on how non-centered principal components neven can produce hockey sticks from red noise, when calibrating towards the modern day intrumental record.

    Did you really expect me to buy into that bluffing (given your performance, both before and after)?

    Really? Is deceit and blind guesswork, and dito accusations really all you have? And additionally hope to get away with?

    WIth such supporters, it is no wonder the CAGW-side has such a hard time getting any traction nowadays  …

  • EricAdler

    Jonas,

    With respect to your point number 2 above,
    Peter Wood disavows any expertise on climate science in his original post. Mandia is entitled to conclude he has very little understanding, based on this.

    The attribution of 50% of the recent global warming to CO2 was definitely not the work of political experts, as you claim. Your credibility on this is totally gone. Here is the list of contributors to the WG1 report of AR4. Please list the political people who are not climate scientists that you find:

    https://www.ipcc-wg1.unibe.ch/publications/wg1-ar4/ar4-wg1-annexes.pdf

    It seems that you are going overboard in your defense of Wood’s post, and have no grasp of the facts or reality, based on your statements.

  • JonasN

    You are wrong here too. Totally wrong. Are you aware of that the RealClimate link you provided states: ” no one has ever disputed MM05′s arithmetic ” (MM05 being McIntyre and McKitrick) although that statement is not true. The team did fight bitterly over the MM validity, and the ClimateGate mails reveal part of that.

    DeepClimate (another anonymous activist blogger) did however examine the MM code carefully, and claimed that the samples presented where not picked quite at random. Instead those were chosen from runs that gave a somewhat higher degree of ‘hockeystickness’ than the average. With an HS-index of up to 1.8-1.9 wheras the average was somewhat lower (~1.6-1.7 if i remeber correctly).

    The point is not at all that some random noise samples would have a hockey-stick shap, either up or down (they do!). The point is that the procedure picked those (both versions) and amplified their weigth.

    Please Eric, dont try trump me with things obviously far beyond your grasp … It doesn’t make you look good.

    (I think Oreskes and Conway, or at least what you think they say, is about at the top of your level of comprehension. And reassures belief is still just belief!)

  • EricAdler

    I guess you do not frequent global warming denier blogs like Wattsupwiththat and ClimateAudit, when you say that the only people doing attacking are those on the AGW side. Please look at those an others because you will find plenty of invective and attacks on posters and scientists who support AGW.  When I comment there I am regularly  been accused of being paid to proffer my views, and have been banned from many such web sites for making logical and factual arguments supporting AGW. Scientists such as Hansen, Mann and others are regularly accused of fraud. in those web sites?

    Your comment indicates that you don’t really have much acquaintance with this issue.

  • EricAdler

    I like the term “denier”.  Many of the people who dispute AGW deny basic physics, the fact the  CO2 increases above 280ppM are due to human industrial activity, and that the thermometer record is meaningful in any way.
    They generally prefer the term skeptics, but they totally lack skepticism of any of the crackpot theories that are proffered to dispute AGW.

  • JonasN

    Eric A. Yes, ‘based on what you think you know’. The point here is that you do not really know, only relay what you have heard.

    CO2 doesn’t store energy/heat. It scatters IR-radiation in two narrow bandwiths. And the heat balance referred to would be the temperature, which doesnt comply with the hypothesis since about a decade (and didn’t ever before 1975).

    A different matter would be its footprint, a hot spot i the higher troposhere in the tropics. Which hasn’t been found either. But that is not a signature on the heat balance.

    What has been observed though is that the extra CO2 indeed does scatter IR of those wavelengths where it is supposed to. But that has nothing to do with any heat balance (which is the crux of the CAGW-matter. The missing heat, remember!?)

    Sorry Eric, but the more you try, the more of your ingorance is revealed.

  • JonasN

    Eric,

    Why don’t you read what i say instead of making things up. The claim was that ~half of the temp during the latter half of the 20th century was due to manmade GHG:s. That amounts to ~0.2 °C. I think this may be exaggerated, and the empirical data does not support it. But I can accept it as a hypothesis put forward.

    However, the statement that this ‘attribution’ was ‘very likely’ (ie 90% certainty) is a purely politically negotiated claim. Actually, the bureaucrats involved in wrting the SPM-repport (released before the main report, which later had to be altered to ‘comply’ with the SPM-version) wanted to bolster that number even higher, but some of the more scientifically inclined objected. The 90% figure is a result of such ‘negotionations’. There is no data or calculation supporting that figure. The SPM-version doesn’t list any authors!

    And if you’d like to prove me wrong, you simply could point me towards the research where such a probability is derived, where the calculations and underlying assumptions are presented, and where the authors with affiliation are clearly identified.

    But you can’t! No such calculation exists. And it seemed that you where completely unaware even of that fact!

    Remember: The take-away-message from the AR4 SPM  “Most of the observed increase in global averagetemperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenicgreenhouse gas concentrations.” was echoed around the entire world as the foremost posterchild for the climate scare. It appeared in almost every newspaper and media outlet.

    But the first part was the speculative hypothesis, and the second part was pure guessing. (And the actual AR4 report does nowhere support that number)

    Sorry, you’ve been had again, Eric. And what have you to offer in reply? Accusations and ad hom:s … as usual I’d like to add!

  • EricAdler

    Peter Wood wrote:
    “In 2007, Weather Channel meteorologist Dr. Heidi Cullen seemed to call
    for the firing of meteorologists who expressed doubt about AGW. She
    later clarified to The New York Times
    that “I didn’t exactly say that. I was talking about the American
    Meteorological Society’s seal of approval. I was saying the A.M.S.
    should test applicants on climate change as part of their certification
    process. They test on other aspects of weather science.” In 2009,
    Environmental Protection Agency economist Alan Carlin was subjected to
    a gag order by an EPA administrator after submitting a report that was critical of the role of CO2 in recent global warming.”
     
    His account of this is quite interesting. Who says Heidi Cullen seemed to call for the firing of meteorologists who expressed doubt about AGW? Peter Wood didn’t give a citation, but the answer is in the NYTimes link. It was  Rush Limbaugh!!  How credible is that charge? How can an educated person take the word of Rush Limbaugh? Heidi Cullen is a the only climatologist at the Weather Channel. She found that meteorologists know very little climatology and wanted to change that. Is that proof of thuggery?

    Wood also misrepresents the situation surrounding Alan Carlin. He is an economist who works on climate change as a hobby. He made some unsolicited comments regarding an official EPA report on climate change, which were suppressed. The reason for the dismissal of his comments is clear to those who are up on climate science. Reading what he said in the CBS link, we find that he claims Greenland’s ice cap is not melting at an accelerated rate, that variation in solar radiation is mainly responsible for global warming, and that temperatures have declined for the past 11 years. All of these are incorrect.

    Carlin was not hired to work on climate science, and his comments were disregarded by the EPA management. This is not unusual or improper in any way. Carlin is still free to blog on climate change any time that he wants to. If Wood had followed the developments in the science of climate change, he might understand why Carlin was given short shrift by the EPA.

    It is nonsense for  Wood to cite these cases as thuggery! It is appalling to see such tripe posted at the Chronicle of Higher Education.

  • duppy_conqueror

    denier, denialist, inactivist, and Adullamite, the last 2 of which made me LOL, thanks James & Eric! Warmist has a real ZING to it, both the belief in 1 syllable + suffix -ist implying a dogmatic religious belief, a teasing connotation, and not so positive. Skepticism has a fine classical history, so I can see we they (or I) would prefer it. How about neo-Pyrrhonist? Too long.

    Anyway, compared to global lava ball, global snow ball, global night from asteroid hit, or global peeling from the sun gone red giant or supernova, all of which have happened or will, this pending catastrophe seems relatively tolerable for now. (Don’t hate! Shut off all unused lights!)

  • harryrsnape

    Eli attempted to respond, but as usual you need to read the details to see the deception.
    The full quote that he lifted an excerpt from is this:”Climate campaigners have also noticed a surge in the frequency and virulence of this new form of cyber-bullying. The following was received by a young woman (who asked that her name not be used):“Did you want to offer your children to be brutally gang-raped and then horribly tortured before being reminded of their parents socialist beliefs and actions?“Burn in hell. Or in the main street, when the Australian public finally lynchs you.”This was part of an article on the “travails” of being an alarmist scientist, the details are actually about the abuse of a “climate campaigner” not a scientist, this was used as some adjunct information, presumably because the author lacked anything remotely interesting regarding a real climate scientist.

  • harryrsnape

    Mann’s analysis was based upon statistical techniques of dubious quality. McIntyre and McKitrick have more relevant statistical experience that Mann, neither they, or Mann, gathered any of the underlying data, so a climate science background would not be necessary to review this work.

    Happer is an eminent Physicist and Trimble a Professor in Geography, both experienced and trained scientists and able to judge scientific issues, particularly the mathematics, the methods and the ethics that surrounded Mann’s work.

    Wegman’s report apparently contains some definitions that are not properly attributed regarding  social networks, none of this has anything to do with the statistical errors found to exist in Mann’s work by McIntyre and McKitrick.

    That you have tried to conflate the two issues either reveals a total lack of understanding of a rather simple point, or a deliberate attempt to mislead. Either way it doesn’t paint a plattering picture of your contribution.

  • jaybergman

    I share Dr. Wood’s skepticism about anthropogenic global warming.  And I reject not infrequent insinuations from proponents of it, such as Al Gore, that critics are not only incorrect but morally deficient, even evil.
     
    Moreover, I find in some of the arguments for AGW the logical fallacy pervasive in Freudian psychoanalysis.  At times when the weather is exceedingly warm, we hear that this is proof of AGW.  But when the weather is similarly cold, we hear that this, too, is proof of AGW (for example, from Robert Kennedy jr.)  AGW, in other words, is beyond proof or disproof — and is therefore no longer science but unsubstantiated dogma, a kind of secular religion.

    Jay Bergman
    Professor of History
    Central Connecticut State University
    New Britain CT &
    Member, Board of Directors,
    National Association of Scholars

    P.S. Dr. Wood did not ask me to comment on his article.  Nor did he see my comments above before I posted them.

  • EricAdler

    You wrote:
    “At times when the weather is exceedingly warm, we hear that this is
    proof of AGW.  But when the weather is similarly cold, we hear that
    this, too, is proof of AGW (for example, from Robert Kennedy jr.)”

    No climate scientists argues that weather in a given day or month at a given location is proof of any climate trend. You will never find such an argument  in any scientific publication on climate science.

    Indeed you quoted Robert Kennedy Jr. who is not a climate scientist. I don’t form my opinion on climate science based on what I read from history teachers or attorneys, unless they are citing real climate scientists.

    Robert Kennedy Jr. who is an attorney did not make make the argument you attributed to him.
     
    http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/news/rfk-jr-15-months-ago-global-warming-means-no-snow-or-cold-dc

    He was not talking about a single winter, but rather about a number of years he remembers in his childhood and pointed out that in general recent years have seen less snow in Washington DC. People normally don’t go skiing or sledding anymore like they used to. This is not a reflection on a single day or months weather, and does qualify as an observation on climate change although it is not global but local climate.

    In fact the opinion editor of the Washington Examiner, from whom you apparently get your opinion on climate science, (you didn’t give a reference but it seems I have found the story online) made the following statement:

    “Having shoveled my walk five times in the midst of this past weekend’s
    extreme cold and blizzard, I think perhaps RFK, Jr. should leave weather
    analysis to the meteorologists instead of trying to attribute every
    global phenomenon to anthropogenic climate change.”

    It is pretty clear that he is trying to confuse  people into thinking that a single blizzard event outweighs the record of many years of weather which we call climate.

    I am dismayed that a professor of History gets his opinons on Climate Change from an opinon editor in a right wing political publication, rather than looking at publications by experts in climatology, and would want expose his folly to the public. This does not seem very scholarly to me.

  • JonasN

    Eric

    Again you are making wide, sweeping, general statements pretending to speak for ‘climate scientists’ (which you definitely are not) and claiming that you can determine which ones are of the ‘real’ variety and which ones aren’t.

    Maybe you should look up what Kevin Trenberth has to say about reversing the meaning of the ‘null hypothesis’ wrt weather events and climate change.

    You might miss most of the points, of course, but there is more to Bergmans observation than just some lines from a newspaper editor.

  • JohnMashey

    Thank you for  expressing your opinion, as per my email shown at:
    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/guest-post-bottling-nonsense-mis-using-a-civil-platform
    about a day ago.  Hopefully, mor NAS affiliates chairs will go on teh record as well.

  • EricAdler

    JonasN,
    Another empty post devoid of substance.
    You say,
    “there is more to Bergmans observation than just some lines from a newspaper editor”
    If Bergman has another point why is he keeping it a secret?
    If you know what it is, why aren’t you more specific?

     Bergman’s opinion about climate change  seems to be based on  a right wing  newspaper editor who is confusing a weather event with climate. In the case of Heidi Cullen, Peter Wood forms his opinion about the actions of a climatologist based on what Rush Limbaugh said. This is not very scholarly to say the least.You don’t even attempt to refute that.

    Bergman is making a straw man argument here on the basis of that confusion. His comment is what you would expect from a bar room conversation about climate change, rather than that of a “Scholar” on web site dealing with issues involving higher education.

    You are saying I missed a point that he made in his brief post.  I have no clue what his secret unspoken point was, or if he has ever heard of Kevin Trenberth, or read anything that he has written.

    Do YOU want to discuss Trenberth’s remarks on communication climate change,  which caused such a stir in the AGW denier blogosphere?

    http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/2011/02/22/straight-talk-from-kevin-trenberth-on-denialists-climate-science-communication-and-climate-change-policy/

    http://ams.confex.com/ams/91Annual/webprogram/Paper180230.html

    In his remarks Trenberth points out how the media promotes disinformation about climate change, confusing weather and climate. Trenberth points out:

    “The media continue to report highly misleading material about how cold outbreaks, snow events, or one cold month nullifies global warming when
    the big picture continues to indicate otherwise.”

    It seems that laymen such as Bergman and Woods have fallen as victims to this disinformation, but they are willing victims, because right wingers are motivated by politics to dislike the scientific theory of AGW

  • JonasN

    No, it was neither empty nor devoid of substance. I told you what to look for. But istead you hope that guessing(!) there was only one source he based his position on, also will prove correct. Again one of the many logical fallacies of yours:

    That what you can’t see, or do not know, or do not know about, therefore cannot exist  or be correct.

    Please, can’t you grow just a trifling bit above that level?

    I see that you now (together with Trenberth) whine over that the media is not sufficiently supportive of his/your/AGW-scare views. Al Gore does the same.

    Well pity you! Grow up, get over it, deal with reality instead of whining about that just a little less climate propaganda will pass entirely unchallanged through the media.

    Are you serioulsy totally unaware of that under decades: “The media continu[ously] reported highly misleading material about” global warming, climate change and all upcoming disasters!? Still does!

    Well uf you weren’t, that certainly explains why your views are so extemely onesided and still gullable …

  • JonasN

    Now, if you wish to argue something of stubstance, please go ahead:

    Start by defending Trenberth’s version of the null hypothesis. Argue that this is the new way to conduct science. And please do so without copy-pasting his lines, or others, about the matter.
    Do it in your own words, as best you can from your understanding. Argue that the concept of a null-hypothesis (when evaluating a scientific proposition) should be overturned when it comes to climate science.

    Please, fire away …. But remember that your words remain and can be read by everyone!

  • http://profiles.google.com/topologyrob Robert Davidson

    Jafco, this is simply false. Mann’s work has been repeatedly exonerated. I can’t believe this pseudoscientific hoax (climate denial) has made it into this journal, and that comments on the level of creationism are here.

  • http://profiles.google.com/topologyrob Robert Davidson

    Have you seen how biologists talk about creationists? They are similarly frustrated. Climate denial is so similar to creationism, and holds as much water.

  • http://www.facebook.com/IH8LIBS Roy Brown

    If the ‘science is very, very clear’, then why do all the ‘scientists’ say “We need more funding, because we don’t know enough to understand the system.”, “But we know man is breaking the system!”. And if the ‘science is very, very clear’, why then does none of the modelling and forecasting match observation?

  • http://www.facebook.com/IH8LIBS Roy Brown

    You decapitate your own support of Wood’s “Reasoned argument” by labeling one side or the other as “good and evil”, “destiny”, and “salvation”. There’s no reasonable argument with fanatical bias.

  • EricAdler

    JonasN,
    The opinion editor of the Washington Examiner, is not a climate scientist, and neither is JFK Jr.. Bergman is precisely echoing an editorial opinion piece for his justification for his skepticism of the climate science behind AGW.

    I am not a mind reader. Maybe you are. If there is more to Bergman’s observation, maybe you can tell us what it is.

  • JonasN

    For someone not being a mind reader, you make a hell of a lot of comments about what people ‘really’ think, mean, know, do not know, are ignorant of etc. What they claim, what their work, blogposts, articles, reserach etc actually does show or say .. in contrast to what their words and work actually do say.

    But realizing that you can’t read minds, and cannot create understanding, knowledge, insight out of thin air … is at least a small step in the right direction.

    Another realization to make in the near future would be that also guessing, based on your beliefs, or supported by activist blogposts, is not a verry effective method to assess what reality (and other views) are about. Guessing might lead you to a correct conlusion now and then, but more often to the opposite. And even if correct, you arrived there for the wrong reasons. Still making your argument invalid.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “I share Dr. Wood’s skepticism about anthropogenic global warming.

    Your ignorance about it is even more profound than his, although your arrogance is on par.

    “At times when the weather is exceedingly warm, we hear that this is
    proof of AGW.  But when the weather is similarly cold, we hear that
    this, too, is proof of AGW (for example, from Robert Kennedy jr.)”

    These are not the arguments made … you are apparently too ignorant and/or unintelligent to understand the actual arguments. And considering that 97% of climate scientists accept AGW and that there is not a reputable science organization in the world that denies it, with thousands of supporting journal articles, it is quite revealing that the only proponents you mention are Al Gore and RFK Jr. If you had ever actually conferred with a climate scientist or even simply any informed person, you would know that it is not “cold”, but the levels of snowfall and other forms of precipitation that are consistent with global warming, because of the increased carrying capacity for water vapor  of a warm atmosphere.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    This grossly dishonest post clearly offers no rebuttal to what Eric Adler wrote.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Is anthropogenic global warming (AGW) a valid scientific theory?  Is it
    well supported by the empirical data or is it mostly an artifact of
    computer modeling?  I don’t have answers to these questions.”

    Then you are an ignoramus who is unqualified to write on the subject. It really isn’t difficult for any honest person to ascertain the answers to these questions.

    “I stand, rather, on the side of those who favor rigorous scientific
    inquiry, transparency, and openness.”

    No, you clearly don’t.

    “I am not a climate scientist, but
    neither do I cede the whole matter of answering such questions to the
    designated experts.”

    This is a profoundly anti-intellectual, anti-science stance when the “designated experts” are the vast bulk of climate scientists, who expertise comes from being familiar with the science and the mass of peer-reviewed journal articles that lay out the evidence. Rather than consult with this community and examine the evidence, you have written a grossly dishonest article that is all about “tone” as perceived by you and not at all about science.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    Why didn’t Peter Wood respond to this? I think the reason is clear: he is intellectually dishonest.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    Peter Wood did not respond to this (unless he’s secretly JonasN) because
    he’s intellectually dishonest … that is, any intellectually honest
    person would have responded (and would have acknowledged the truth of Eric Adler’s statements).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “The exposition above may be best summed up as being not even wrong.”

    Indeed, it is correct … and you said nothing that refutes it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Let me ask what you make of the fact that objective outside observers –
    calm, clear-eyed people who are generally favorable to the concerns you
    express — repeatedly tell you that you are behaving more badly that
    the opposition?”

    No one *objective* or *clear-eyed* makes such a claim. How would you “objectively” assess your own purported objectivity?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    The 12 people who liked this and the 14 who liked Girma’s other post are either unaware or don’t care that, scientifically speaking, what Girma wrote is bollocks.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    18 people liked the teabagger’s smears. Telling.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    ” IT seems more like the authors want to minimize any potential positive outcomes, which are also speculative”

    This from someone who fancies himself “objective” and “clear-eyed”. Snort.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    Funny coming from a Koch bros employee.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “to be so sure of myself, but I know a lynch mob when I see it”

    Ironic much? Your certainty about what you “know” when you “see” is intellectually  dishonest, ignorant, and arrogant.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    ” I’m not one for hero-worship, or pulling rank, or any of that”

    Funny, then, that you did exactly that. When it comes to climate science, Dyson deserves no respect.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Q.E.D.”

    What an arrogant, intellectually dishonest …

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “not supported by any science I can see. I can see the concern but not the conclusions”

    Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    Your mind is so open that evidence and logic pass right through it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “anthropormorphic warming theory”

    Your lies about NASA might have more credibility if you were to at least use passably correct terminology.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “call to rise above … rhetorical thuggery”

    If only you would, Peter, and stop writing these libelous articles.

    ” It is entirely typical of how Mashey and Haynes operate that they seize
    this circumstance in an attempt to weave a conspiracy theory about
    NAS’s and my motives.”

    You are a vicious, foul liar.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    Peter Wood is a bad, bad, man.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “I possess sufficient scientific literacy”

    No, you are a complete and utter ignoramus … and you are also clearly a LIAR when you say that this is not about taking a position of global warming. You are a classic denialist, and typically ignorant of the *mass* of climate science supporting AGW, and the position you have taken in re Mashey, Mann, et. al. is driven by ideology.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Peter, you are having your cake and eating it too.  You can’t claim not
    to know enough to be an expert and then state with unqualified certainty
    that a climate scientist can’t be taken seriously when talking about
    his own field.”

    That’s a polite way of saying that he’s dishonest scum.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “And yet you and your supporters seem to think that what is said by
    people in comments on a blog has some bearing on the character and
    motivations of active research scientists. Why?”

    Because he’s a thug.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    ‘I take it that it is not the term a “warmist” would use to describe
    themselves, perhaps opting for “climate activist” or “AGW proponent”‘

    Try “scientist” or “familiar with the accumulated scientific evidence on climate”.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “how do we know if your presumed cause (AGW) is responsible”

    By doing science. That’s how we know.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Have someone help you understand that Mr. Wood has taken no particular side on the climate science debate.”

    That’s a lie.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “on another commenter’s point”

    Or your sockpuppet, as your misstatements are almost identical.

    “Is it not equally likely, based on current scientific evidence (not a
    social belief that we shouldn’t dump CO2)  that net good will come from
    global warming?”

    Only someone completely ignorant of the relevant facts would think so.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Historically, periods during which we had no robust competing theories
    have not been times in which substantial scientific progress was made.
    Were I you, I would be concerned about that.”

    As a “philosopher of science”, you are an inept failure … that is what you should be concerned about. That some theories, such as AGW, Evolution, germ theory, atomic theory, QM., etc. are well established does not mean that we are in a “period” of no robust competing theories, you blitherer.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “The overall feeling I get”"

    Having virtually no knowledge or understanding of the scientific evidence, a feeling is all you have.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Atoms existed before the statement of the Pauli Exclusion principle, and
    I trust they will continue to exist long after quantum mechanics goes
    the way of the four elements.”

    That is incredibly stupid. Your physics professor was of course not saying that the world would not exist in the absence of the *statement* of the Pauli Exclusion Principle, he was saying that the world would not exist if the the Pauli Exclusion Princple didn’t *hold*. That’s a counterfactual … it’s mindbogglingy dumb to counter with a statement like “atoms exist” when the discussion is about what the world *would* be like if the physics were different.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    ‘ but incredulity is not the same thing as a “lack of knowledge.”‘

    Learn to read: John Mashey did not say they are the same thing, he said that the incredulity is *from* lack of knowledge.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “I was trying to be polite to people who I believe are behaving in a boorish manner”

    The actual correct answer is that you are an ignorant pompous ass, like Rnumber, dank48, betterschool … all blitheringly ignorant fools who presume to preach to climate scientists what the science does or doesn’t say.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “they thought the world was cooling”

    A ridiculous falsehood repeated by ignorant denialists and repeatedly refuted.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SU3L6O6MNAPXLBIGJGEX5NW5UQ jqb

    “Your comments justify the piece’s title. ”

    Wood is the thug.

  • celested

    I believe this thread has a lot to offer in understanding where higher education and climate science have parted company in recent years.  The great majority of the 258 (so far) comments have pretty obviously taken one side or the other on the question of confidence in climate science’s insistence that anthropogenic global warming is a growing and serious problem.

    What I found particularly interesting is the proportion of those selecting the Like button for the comments that question that confidence, which far outnumber the likers of comments expressing or implying confidence in the science.

    When was the last time higher education had so little confidence in a branch of science?  And to what can we attribute this lack of confidence?  That it is clear that climate science is all humbug?  Or that those in higher education dislike being lectured to on topics where the answers are so obvious that there is no need for scientists to wade in and stir things up without a compelling reason?

  • JohnMashey

    celestad:
    1) Do you think Peter Wood and NAS are representative of higher education?

    2) Do you think that most of the comments here have been written by people seriously  involved in higher education?

    You might want to check
    http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/guest-post-bottling-nonsense-mis-using-a-civil-platform

    and then a brief analysis of the (predictable) dynamics of all his can be found at:
    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/08/rick_perry_peter_wood_and_the.php

    3) Do you think “likes” are a meaningful polling technique?

    4) I would have been delighted if:
    a) Peter Wood had stayed engaged, instead of ignoring my and Rob’s article.
    b) A few more NAS members had been willing to participate (I asked the affiliate leaders, but only one posted).
    c) A few more clearly-identifiable academics showed up.

  • celested

    John,

    No method is likely to recruit confirmed skeptics to your viewpoint, and preaching to the choir is almost as pointless.  I would expect your continuing and enthusiastic efforts here to have the greatest payoff with whatever open-minded swing voters might still be following this thread, if any.

    To this end might I suggest replacing the “obviously I’m right and they’re wrong” attitude evidenced in your many posts here with one better suited to outreach, which is how one generally approaches the lay public as well as those in higher education who aren’t expert in the area in question.

    This came through strongly in your response to my post here.  Your “You might want to check,” comment is presumptuous. Maybe I’m unfamiliar with the positions staked out by the sides in this CHE quarrel, more generally the climate debate for the period Angstrom-Wood to Lindzen-Singer, more importantly the relevant atmospheric physics (thermo, QM, spectroscopy, etc.) and cycles (carbon, hydrological, etc.), maybe not, but it is presumptuous to assume unfamiliarity.

    Likewise with your implied challenge to the meaningfulness of “likes”.  Maybe they’re meaningless, however the ratio I indicated is at least consistent with the uniform reports by all major US polling organizations that Americans this year are taking global warming less seriously than they used to.  For you to ignore this trend is as ostrich-like as those who base their skepticism of AGW on a casual replacement of its science with their own brand, and their preference for Lindzen, Singer, and Pielke as the credible authorities on the subject.

    I’m sorry if I seem to have gotten my back up over your response, but you completely blew off my third paragraph, which I felt raised an important question.  Is higher education rejecting one of its own disciplines by putting it in the same camp as say cold fusion, or is it merely complaining that the basic facts about the impact and consequences of 7 billion people on the atmosphere’s aerosols and greenhouse gases, whatever they might be, are too obvious to be worth arguing about?

    Of course higher education might in fact be largely aligned with mainstream climate science, which would make my question both presumptuous and irrelevant.  However the tone of the discussion in this thread suggests otherwise.  In such a situation, although the ultimate question may be the one whose answer settles the debate, it is not necessarily the question to ask first.  Just because your position seems obvious to you doesn’t make it so for others, who may prefer to approach it via smaller steps.

    But given the number of clicks needed to scroll down to this point, one imagines the audience for our exchange can now be counted on one hand.  Perhaps this blog could benefit from a “Recent comments” sidebar at the top supplementing the “Recent posts” one.

  • celested

    Megginson, your comment here is the first one I’ve felt comfortable with in this thread, as it succeeds in being substantive without having to stake out the “you’re right and I’m wrong” position that most commentators have adopted.

    So I would turn to you rather than to either Mr. Wood or Dr. Mashey (who has been the only one I’ve criticized so far) to ask about something that has been puzzling me.

    Why do you suppose the focus of this thread has been the attacks on skeptics when the attacks on climate scientists are surely just as noteworthy if not more so?

    The latter date back at least as far as 1996 with the repeated attacks by Fred Seitz on IPCC lead author Ben Santer.  These began with Seitz’s op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal for June 12, 1996.  Wood’s “Climate thuggery” title is cast from the same mold as Seitz’s title for his editorial: “A Major Deception in Global Warming.”  Seitz wrote “I have never witnessed a more disturbing corruption of the peer-review process” and appeared to foreshadow a larger agenda with “If the IPCC is incapable of following its most basic procedures, it would be best to abandon the entire IPCC process.”

    Seitz being well credentialed, having served as president of both the National Academy of Sciences and the American Physical Society, this naturally caused an enormous uproar, and all organizations concerned proceeded to investigate these startling charges.

    The upshot was that those who continued to believe Seitz’s charges would appear to have been cut from the same cloth as those convinced that someone besides Harvey Lee Oswald shot JFK.  Nothing short of a huge conspiracy theory can overcome the fact that every government and scientific organization that looked into the matter completely exonerated Santer.  Santer’s own recent perspective on this episode can be read here where he is still clearly being dogged by these unfounded charges made against him 14 years earlier.

    Santer of course is not the only climate scientist to come under attack in this way.  Phil Jones and Michael Mann have been more recent recipients of strikingly similar treatment.

    The complete neglect of these attacks by Mr. Wood is what puzzles me.  Unless he’s a conspiracy theorist (of which there is clearly no shortage among climate skeptics) I find it very hard to reconcile this neglect with the earnestness with which he professes his neutrality in the matter.

    Having been critical only of Dr. Mashey in my previous posts, I hope picking on the other side this time corrects any misimpression that I’m taking sides in this quarrel.  While I don’t see how to defend either Mashey or Wood, I also don’t see how to defend a theory that says that the surface of the Earth receives nearly
    twice as much energy from the atmosphere as it does from the Sun
    .  No wonder so many are skeptical of global warming when they hear what sounds like rubbish to them.

  • celested

    Quoting Bogs_Dollock,: “The exposition above may be best summed up as being not even wrong.What matters in the case of water vapour is not the residency time in
    the atmosphere of a particular water molecule [as all water molecules
    are identical] but the total amount of water molecules in the atmosphere
    at any given time. Water molecules are constantly entering the
    atmosphere through evaporation and leaving through condensation and
    precipitation. What matters is the net amount of water molecules in the
    atmosphere at any given time.  Water vapour in the atmosphere varies
    between 1% to 4%  at the earth’s surface [and ~0.40% averaged across the
    atmosphere] compared to  ~ 0.039% for CO2.”

    Based on what the other contributors to this thread have written, it would appear that Bogs_Dollock’s exposition is itself not even wrong, merely irrelevant, as it considers only the irrelevant statistic concerning the quantity of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

    Whereas this quantity has been responsible for around 33 degrees of warmth over the past several million years, and closer to 40 over the past half-billion years (the polar ice caps did not exist 100 million years ago), the extra 2-4 degrees expected between now and 2100 has less to do with absolute quantity than rate of change of individual greenhouse gases.

    The industrial age has witnessed an increase of CO2 from 280 to 390 ppmv, with a likely further increase to 600-800 ppmv by 2100.  Even though there is far more water in the atmosphere than CO2, H2O’s quantity averaged over a decade is not increasing at anything like the rate of CO2 averaged over the same period.

    In the short run, only the rate of change matters, not the quantity.  In the long run the biosphere can easily adapt, but not so easily in the short run.

    Moreover the relevant rate of change is not linear but compound (as in “compound annual growth rate”).  Each doubling of a greenhouse gas adds a certain number of degrees to the surface temperature.  In order for any increase in water vapor to have the same effect as the increase in CO2 from 280 ppmv to 560 ppmv (whenever that happens), its 0.4% average across the atmosphere would have to increase to 0.8%.

    If this doesn’t happen, as seems extremely likely, then doubling of CO2, along with methane and certain nitrogen oxides, will raise the temperature, not by an unpleasant amount but at an unpleasant rate without any help from water vapor.

    However if it does happen, that hardly makes things any better.  If doubling CO2 were to add 3 degrees (for the sake of argument), and doubling water vapor were to do the same, then for both to double would mean close to a 6 degree increase.

    Bogs_Dollocks is trying to argue that these increases can’t have any impact on surface temperature, but this is bog-standard skepticism of science of the kind found on hundreds of other Internet blogs.  It has no deeper significance than any of the dozens of other rejections of science by those outside the fields in question, to which the Chronicle of Higher Education bears not-so-mute testimony, the general knowledge and erudition of its subscribers notwithstanding.

  • celested

    How, indeed, can I attribute any credibility to someone who villifies
    all opposition.

    Quite right, you shouldn’t.

    Your harder task is to refute the credibility of those scientists who have been trained in atmospheric thermodynamics and radiation physics and who calmly go about their research paying no attention whatsoever to skeptics who base their objections on those vilifying the skeptics, instead carefully documenting their results in the accumulating scientific literature.

    If the strongest argument of skeptics is the existence of vilifiers of skeptics (which from the outset has been what this whole Climate Thuggery thread has been about), climate skepticism as an alternative theory of climate doesn’t have a serious leg to stand on.

    Every serious attempt on this thread at a scientific objection to AGW has been based on one or another well-known fallacy.  Without a scientific leg to stand on, AGW skepticism has nothing to fall back on than to complain about being vilified.

    C’mon, surely AGW skepticism can rise above that and muster a serious argument in its favor?  Yes?

  • celested

    Have you seen how biologists talk about creationists? They are similarly
    frustrated. Climate denial is so similar to creationism, and holds as
    much water

    Maybe, but one big difference is that while it’s easy to find creationists who don’t mind being compared to climate skeptics, it’s hard to find climate skeptics who don’t mind being compared to creationists.  There’s Roy Spencer, but who else can you name?

  • celested

    “Happer was not a climate scientist.”

    Who is, then?

    Will Happer is one of the 14 coathors of the 1982 volume The long-term impacts of increasing atmospheric carbon-dioxide levels edited by Gordon J. Macdonald.  Happer’s contribution was 7 pages on the use of Raman scattering to determine atmospheric gas ratios to high precision.

    Unless you’ve (co)authored a climate science book yourself, or at least published in a climate science journal or conference, you have no business questioning the credentials of those who have.

    Embarrassingly for someone working in optics, Will seems not to have grasped the relevance to climate science of the detailed structure of the HITRAN line spectra tables, but that’s not the same thing as having no background in climate science.

  • celested

    Let us look at the following data from the Climate Research Unit at the
    University of East Anglia to attempt to answer the above question.  http://bit.ly/nicmt9

    This is about as brutally cherry-picked as one can make data.  The shorter the period the easier it is to find temperature declines, at any time in the last 40 years.  For 8-year periods it gets a bit harder — if you want to demonstrate any sort of temperature decline since 1982 you’re basically stuck with one of 2001-2009, 2002-2010 (Girma’s period), and 2003-2011.

    The obvious question is, if temperature is declining, shouldn’t we see it for a full decade?  No, because it’s not declining in that or any other meaningful sense, as can be seen from the decade 2000-2010,

    What’s so pathetic here is for climate skeptics to accuse others of fraud when they’re so obviously dependent on fraud themselves to make their case. 

  • douglaswil

    I consider myself an “average” student, however looking at your definition of “average” in paragraph six, I am not.

    You see I grew up in Houston, TX and had a traumatic event in my life.  I have been told by many teachers that I have an education gap.  I do not know where commas go or how verbs work together.  What I do know is I will not stop until I complete the task at hand.  Out of five grandchildren I am the only one to complete high school and gone to college.  After ten years of college, working, being a husband and father, I am pleased to say I will graduate August 11, 2012.

    Starting Fall 2012 I will start a Master’s in College Student Personnel.  I work in a Registrar’s Office of a college that has an enrollment of 10,000 and I love it.

    I just hope my C, D, and F’s on my transcript do not hinder me from pursuing a great career.

  • akprof

    My only complaint re multi-year grants is that I think colleges should be required to provide them rather than simply allowed. If a student athlete gets injured and can no longer play, the college should have some obligation to the athlete who gave up his/her health for the college!

  • hunbun8

    You stated that one year cost approximately 1/4 of your families annual income and with saving and good investments your family could afford to send you. Today families don’t save and consider the sacrifice of 25% as too great to consider. As an aid administrator I see hundreds of families with comfortable incomes (middle and upper-middle class) who have saved nothing and are surprised by the costs and the lack of aid for their income level. Just this past week, I had a family who had been making in the upper $300k for years and whose primary breadwinner lost their job. They had no college savings at all and an upside-down mortgage, this family, now living one one salary of less than $100k, will now financial aid. Granted their circumstances gave vastly changed, but they are taking they are taking away someone else’s chance at college due to their lack of planning. I wish I could say this was an exception, but it isn’t. Saving for college just isn’t a priority for most people.

  • jaysanderson

    “More must be done, she said, to facilitate student borrowing, including income-contingent loan options that would protect at least some graduates from a portion of their expected debt.”

    The public bears no increased responsibility to subsidize a student who wants to attend Vassar over their local college or university. Tax dollars collected from citizens who are struggling to make ends meet should go to the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Sending your child to an exclusive private college is an optional luxury.

    I teach at a private liberal arts college and I believe in what we do, but the community colleges and public universities in our region are beginning to offer similar programs to ours, and at a fraction of the cost. My daughter (a H.S. senior) tells me that her friends are talking about how they might get a college degree without student loans, because they are afraid of the debt burden. That gives me hope for the next generation, but causes anxiety about who will be willing to pay the 43k/year to attend my institution. I strongly suspect that I will be working at a state institution before my career ends, and be darn grateful for the opportunity.

  • cbres

    W’s observations are well taken. My only disagreement is the degree to which migration into publics is taking place. Frankly, publics should be eating the lunch of privates. The reason they are not is the lack of public support for ‘public’ higher education.  The high cost of public tuition, a direct result of diminished public support, means that, if you are middle class and you get some $ from a private, you’re coming pretty close to the cost of the public. Why not attend the private, then, if that is what you’d really like to do?

    I attended the conference described in this article, and one thing that struck me (and not in a good way) was the observation that students perhaps should take on more debt for their educations. That makes me afraid, very afraid….