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Americans: Over- or Under-Educated?

August 8, 2011, 4:46 pm

I have to hand it to Anthony Carnevale. He is persistent. He and his Georgetown colleagues have issued a series of reports with one overriding message: There is a big, and probably growing, payoff to earning a college degree.

The last of a series of reports does offer some interesting data and observations. It is true, for example, that the choice of college major matters in terms of a personal return on an investment in college, and that there are important differences based on other demographics, such as gender and ethnicity.

But the overall message is that typically there is a big payoff to going to college. The Lumina Foundation is using the Georgetown findings as vindication of the urgency of their call (and that of others, notably President Obama) to sharply increase the proportion of Americans with college degrees.

A quick look at the latest study shows at least six shortcomings. First, and probably the most important, is that Carnevale and his colleagues are comparing apples with oranges. Those who go to college are, on average, brighter, more knowledgeable, more disciplined, and more conscientious than those who go to work after higher school. For decades, economists have written about the screening dimension of higher education. Even if those in the college going population had NOT gone to college, they would have earned more than those others who did not go on—simply because they are better workers.

Second, the Carnevale report admits, not everyone is average, as Neal McCluskey pointed out the other day. For example, it acknowledges the 28 percent of those with just an associate degree earn more than the median of those with bachelor’s degrees. Social-worker majors, for example, earn typically dramatically less than the median or average of the entire bachelor-degree population.

Third, remember that 40 or 50 percent of those going on to college do not graduate—even within six years. There is a substantial risk element to making a college investment, particularly those with attributes (low high-school grades, poor test scores, etc.) that suggest the probability of dropping out is high. Adjusting for this risk factor lowers the expected income gains from college dramatically. Carnevale looks just at college success stories (graduates), ignoring the important part of the college-going population who are far less successful (those not graduating).

Fourth, a small technical point. The Carnevale report estimate that the present value of the lifetime earnings advantage associated with a four-year degree is the better part of a million dollars is based on an assumed 40-year work life—working full-time, year round. In reality, many Americans do NOT do that—they take breaks (in some cases, involuntarily) from employment. In particular, women often take several years off to have and raise children.

Fifth, and very important, is that what is important in life usually happens at the margin, not in the middle (the average). What is important to the future is what job prospects will be for the increased number of graduates coming into the labor market. The past does not always predict the future. Increasing the proportion of college graduates from 10 to 20 percent of the population, or even 20 to 30 percent, probably has a different economic impact than increasing it from 30 to 40 percent (the future). Carnevale acknowledges that possibility, but opines that it does not lower the expected earnings differential enough to negate the positive net payoff to higher education. But who really knows? I think the diminishing returns factor to the higher-education investment is pretty high based on my reading of some labor-market data.

Related to that point, a huge percent of college graduates are taking jobs that are traditionally taken by those with high-school diplomas. Carnevale partially comes back with a counterargument: even for those persons, college grads earn more than those with just a high-school diploma. That is often true, but the differential associated with the college degree is almost certainly dramatically reduced. Do the 80,000 college grads who are bartenders gain the same $900,000 plus advantage from a diploma that others supposedly do? I doubt it. And remember the costs of college are rising, and likely will continue to do so in the future. Those costs, by the way, appropriately include the opportunity cost of income foregone during college years from lost labor income.

Lastly, not all colleges are created equal. If there is a $900,000 advantage associated with a college degree, there is plausibly three times that advantage associated with a degree from Harvard College. But what about the graduates of the University of the District Columbia, Youngstown State University, Chicago State University, or the University of Texas at El Paso? First, most of those enrolled at those schools don’t graduate (at least as far as the U.S. Department of Education can tell us). Second, I doubt the earnings differentials associated with a degree from these schools are equal to the average of all college graduates. That is why we need the IRS to provide us average earnings data by college to help evaluate the differential rate of return on investments in the various colleges in the U.S.

The Georgetown studies are opening up a much needed dialogue on the return to a college education. Several colleagues and I will be joining this debate more substantively in the weeks and months ahead. Indeed, I am asking Prof. Carnevale to join me, and no doubt others, in having a frank dialogue on this issue sometime in the near future.

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  • jfischman

    Ms. Nudelman can be found at the New York Times, at nudelf@nytimes.com

  • marka

    Thanks for articulating some of the many reasons that the correlation between college graduation & higher incomes – on ‘average’ – certainly doesn’t mean causation.  This is a wide-spread logic/thinking error in much of our public & political discourse these days — correlation -must- mean causation, and we have the causation basis sorted from the consequences. 

    ‘We’ thought higher home-ownership was an unalloyed boon, only to find ourselves in dire economic straights because of the rush to give ‘everyone’ a home.  ’We’ are fated to repeat the same error in higher education – in a rush to give ‘everyone’ an ‘education,’ we will put more students into debt that they cannot pay.  

    But this time may be worse – they can’t discharge the debt in bankruptcy, and they may not be able to ever pay off the loans, because with a saturated job market, the ‘education’ may no longer be much of a benefit.  Sigh … 

  • dlazere

    Repeating an assertion he has made several times previously, Rich Vedder writes, “Even if those in the college going population had NOT gone to college, they would have earned more than those others who did not go on—simply because they are better workers.”

    This is an intriguing hypothesis, but isn’t it unverifiable, since there would not seem to be any way to establish evidence about whether any individual who did go to college would have done better than others without going?  It’s also something of a red herring, since (in the absence of evidence)  it is irrelevant to the issue of how much more those who go to college earn, on average, than those who don’t, for which ample evidence does exist, albeit mixed.

    In any case, I and other liberal arts teachers find it extremely crass to measure the value of college education only in dollar terms rather than in terms of learning for its building of broad knowledge and capacities for reasoning and critical citizenship.  These educational aims should be the birthright of every citizen of a democracy, as affirmed by Thomas Jefferson, the mentor of free K-12 and higher education in America, “at the public expense,” which he said would “raise the mass of people to the high ground of moral respectability necessary to their own safety, and to orderly government.”   Recent economic policies squeezing out all but the affluent from higher education have caused a regression to what Jefferson denounced as the pseudo-aristocracy of “wealth and birth,” as opposed to a meritocracy in which “worth and genius would [be] sought out from every condition of life.” 

    If many students get short-changed on these goals of liberal education, as several recent reports have acknowledged, does the fault lie mainly in liberal education itself or in  students, the larger social order, and bottom-line efficiency experts like Vedder who disdain its value?

    Donald Lazere

  • eberg

    Donald Lazere is exactly right about the impossibility of Vedder or anyone else demonstrating equally high incomes for smart, non-attenders; on the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that many offspring of wealthy families (President Bush, for example) would have fared no worse financially in life without time spent at Yale or Harvard.  As Mollie Ivens put it: they wake up on 3rd base and think they hit a triple.  Vedder’s second point is none at all:  we WANT social and other key workers to be trained well, and certainly paid better too, so how can this possibly argue against college attendance?  Ignoring non-graduates’ success does not diminish Prof. Carnevale’s points about graduates, but much evidence shows that those who do not finish still come out better than non-attenders.  Finally, we “learn” that attending lesser schools affects the size of the degree premium.

    Let’s face it: Vedder is earning his keep by making a class-based argument that those who can afford colleges and universities without further assistance deserve public support of HE, but others do not.  This is the vulgar side of “free-market” economics that repulse all but a few.

  • graddirector

    Why is no one pointing out that choice of major is critical when considering the payoff of a college education?  At my university, new engineering grads routinely make 70K upon graduation, new Biology grads average about 40K while liberal arts majors typically make less.  That along with the pay differential for achievement gives you a huge lifetime earnings gap between the engineering grad with a 3.8 GPA and a philosophy major with a 2.4. 
    Further, employers are willing to hire people who know something useful for their business and the supply and demand rules say that someone with rarer skills is paid more.  If we started training five times more engineers so that employers could have their pick, those salaries would plummet.  Engineers make alot more than philosophy majors simply because strong math/quantitative skills are much rarer among new graduates than the skills taught in the humanities curriculum.  The only thing that increasing the number of college graduates in fields without shortages would do  is to reduce the average pay for all of them.

  • polargrid

    “Engineers make alot more than philosophy majors simply because strong math/quantitative skills are much rarer among new graduates than the skills taught in the humanities curriculum.”

    That’s only part of the picture.  Knowledge of ancient Sumerian is very rare as well, but employers aren’t lining up to hire folks with this capability.  An engineering or science degree means specific quantitative and hands-on problem-solving skills in addition to critical thinking and reasoning, and this combination is indeed very useful to employers. 

  • _perplexed_

    “That is why we need the IRS to provide us average earnings data by college to help evaluate the differential rate of return on investments in the various colleges in the U.S.”

    Why do you expect the IRS to do your data collection for you?  It would be easy enough to collect a resonably good convenience sample of a few thousand adults and inquire about income and education (level and institution) and begin to get a grip on the answer to the question. 

    Why do economists believe that they shouldn’t have to collect their own data?

  • harveyking

    Actually, although it is statistically difficult, it is possible to verify ” if those in the college going population had NOT gone to college, they
    would have earned more than those others who did not go on”. James Heckman won a Nobel prize in Economics for coming up with a mechanism for correcting for self-selection bias (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckman_correction).
    One classic way of looking at this issue for schooling has involved following self-employed individuals, and seeing how much education they get relative to their income levels. They tend to get less schooling for the same level of income, an indication that part of the return to education is signaling your quality, not just learning. (Self-employed people do not need to signal their quality to themselves.)
    That said, in research in Canada (where I am) and in every other country that I have ever seen research on, the income return to PSE is positive, even for non-completers (e.g. each year of PSE raises your annual income by a statistically significant amount that more than makes up for the cost of the schooling in tuition and lost wages), but even more so for those who finish a degree.
    Income is not the only benefit to individuals or society from schooling, but it is a big part. I think that have a clear and truthful discussion of this is a good idea (what Vedder is calling for), but given the overwhelming research over the years (see any second year Labour Economics textbook) I would be surprised to see anything but a positive value to university degrees, measured in terms of higher income, lower unemployment, better health, better working conditions, etc.

  • dlazere

    Polargrid writes, “ An engineering or science degree means specific quantitative and hands-on problem-solving skills in addition to critical thinking and reasoning, and this combination is indeed very useful to employers.”

    This is a crucial point, one that is bolstered by several corporate executives I know who have told me (or written publicly) that what they most value in employees is independent, critical thinking and skill in written and oral communication.  Such executives recommend a strong component of undergraduate courses  in these skills, EVEN THOUGH STUDENTS NEED NOT MAJOR IN THEM.

    So the whole emphasis in these discussions on correlating financial returns with college MAJORS is misguided, to the extent that  it evades the issue of the value of liberal education courses for all majors.  How about some quantification by Rich Vedder and others correlating courses in these areas that non-majors in them have taken with their future success? 

    These points, however, still don’t address my (and Jefferson’s) argument that education for critical citizenship should be the birthright of every member of a democracy.

    Donald Lazere

  • 5768

    “Evidently Euclid did not stress the practical aspects of his subject, for there is a tale told of him that when one of his students asked of what use was the study of geometry, Euclid asked his slave to give the student threepence, “since he must needs make gain of what he learns.”"  –Boyer, Carl B., and Uta C. Merzbach. A History of Mathematics. 2nd ed. Hoboken: John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 1991.

  • betterschool

    The questions and generalizations — in Vedder and Carnevale’s work — appear to be driven more by ideological bias than objective inquiry.

    A few thoughts:

    In a society where roughly three-quarters of the GDP owes to intellectual systems and processes, and citizen/voter and consumer choice issues often rest on science and technology, it strains credulity for Mr. Vedder to wonder if some of us are “over-educated.” One has a similar feeling when reading Mr. Carnevale’s pronouncements on the contributions of degree level to ROI without controlling for the lockstep contingencies between degree and role in many of the higher paying professions. The divergence in this dimension is so great as to make aggregation all but meaningless. Yet, aggregate he does. (E.g., RNs make about the same whether ADN or BSN; psychologists must have a Ph.D. or Psy.D. to practice in some states and a MS/MA in all states; attorneys must have a JD, BSWs can get licensed in some states and not others where the MSW is required; a pharmacist, unless grandfathered, must have a PharmD, and so on from a very large list.)

    Questions going to ROI are legitimate, yet:

    - Both sides presuppose the “degree” as the outcome of an all-or-none equation when, in fact, every day, month, year, etc. of education is likely to end up making for a more knowledgeable worker, a better wage earner, a wiser consumer, and a better citizen. In the end, these are empirical claims that can be framed as such and answered.

    - Both sides construct most of their arguments on aggregated main effects. This would earn them an “F” in my 501 Introduction to Design and Methodology course. The economic contributions of education cannot be meaningfully aggregated across the following elementary categories, much less the authors’ conflations: (a) professions for which a specified degree is required for a license to work (law, most health care degrees/positions, education, social work, graduate psychology, etc.), (b) jobs for which a specific degree is generally accepted as an entry requirement (accounting, A&P, etc.), (c) jobs requiring knowledge that is very difficult to obtain outside a rigorous course of study (e.g., engineering), and (d) careers and jobs where the degree serves largely as evidence of perseverance and accomplishment, plus imputed intelligence (e.g., general studies, journalism, etc.) I don’t want to gore anyone’s ox with my examples and I recognize the variation.

    - Both sides turn a blind eye to important contributions to variance in the longer term. Mr. Carnevale notes (but does not examine) differences by institutional reputation without acknowledging the data suggesting that these effects diminish with years in the workforce. Additionally, my data, based on 24,000 interviews with employers suggest that colleges and universities significantly overestimate the importance of their brand in the hiring decision. On the other hand, Mr. Vedder isn’t interested in looking at downstream and collateral impace of education, many of which are directly or indirectly financial. An uncomplicated example is the role of Medical Assistant or Surgical Technologist. After receiving one year of education (this varies) the person is qualified for a position that will likely pay less than he would have earned had he remained at his lawn moving job — with one critical difference: he is now working alongside individuals who earn 2 to 20 times what he earns and he is working in a high knowledge, high earnings, vertical culture. If the person has any talent and motivation, his career span vertical potential will be significant. Mr. Vedder argues as if these individuals will do just as well, or better, without the college education that is required to participate in this culture, albeit in a low paying role. In the main, this is clearly false, if not patently absurd. 

    Carnevale and Vedder’s analyses represent narrow and thus distorted slices of reality, selected to reinforce a priori biases. I hope we will soon replace studies conducted by ideologues. The only way to understand these issues is to examine them by meaningful category such as degree, cost, target role, learner atttributes, and for near, mid- and long-term impact. Among other things, we need balanced assessment of impact, near and long term; we need ROI price points that will serve to guide consumer behavior while, at the same time, exerting downward pressure on tuition.

    Robert W Tucker

  • old nassau’67

    1. “That is why we need the IRS to
    provide us average earnings data by college to help evaluate the
    differential rate of return on investments in the various colleges in
    the U.S.” Facetious, I hope. As far as I know, the IRS doesn’t ask for one’s
    college, much less one’s high school. The Census might.

    2. Go to
    http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/do-elite-colleges-produce-the-best-paid-graduates/
    for “Do Elite Colleges Produce the Best-Paid Graduates?”:
    “an updated, gigantic data set on the salaries of graduates from
    hundreds of universities and colleges, as well as salaries and career
    choices broken down by department/major….The numbers are from 1.2
    million users of PayScale’s site who self-reported their salaries
    and educational credentials in a PayScale survey over the last
    year…”
    3. Another apples and oranges: compare English teachers’ $$ from State U. not to Engineers’ from Private U. but to English teachers’ from Private U.

  • phikaw

    Philosophy majors outperform many majors, including biological science majors, on GRE quantitative reasoning, and are the top performers on GRE verbal reasoning and analytical writing. Philosophy majors outperform Engineering majors on LSATs. Philosophy majors outperform all business majors on GMATs (as do Physics, Engineering and Math majors). And Philosophy majors outperform Biological Science majors on MCATs. Granting that test scores alone are but one measure, let’s not just assume that a humanities major doesn’t have quantitative or analytical skills.

  • graddirector

    I dont think anyone ever said that philosophy majors were not smart.  I am not surprised that they do well on the high school level math that is tested on the GRE, SAT, LSAT etc.  However, they are not generally trained to do the things that employers want to pay big money for.  Employers are willing to pay alot for someone with four semesters of college level calculus, a solid working understanding of thermodynamics, the ability to calculate force tensors and to model chemical processes in a fermenter.  If this is coupled to someone with alot of experience manipulating cells and  chemicals in a lab, this person is going to be very highly paid.  The reason is that these are the specific skills that a certain set of employers need.  In some ways, this is like being a plumber, one wants to hire someone who can get dirty and fix the pipes, you dont care if they have read Chaucer or not. 

    I think this is a completely unrelated discussion to the value of a liberal arts education.  There are good arguments to be made that a liberal education is essential to a free society, but one needs to be careful about translating that to the financial value of the soft skills learned, particularly for those in the bottom 1/4 of the class.

  • butteredtoastcat

    There’s a difference between “over-educated” and “over-credentialed.”

    You can’t ever be over-educated, regardless of the job market and the needs of corporations.

    However, one can be over-credentialed if corporations are not willing to hire enough people with those credentials.  What you’re talking about is over-credentialing, which is a market-based phenomenon. 

  • eulerian_ta

    Correction:  The NCAA is becoming more lax with punishing big-money athletic programs.  I can find many examples of mid-major Division I schools in that time period that have gotten postseason bans and damaging scholarship reductions for violations that make the violations at the big money schools look like simple mischief.  It makes no sense to give out TV bans to these schools because they hardly ever play on TV.

    It’s not that there aren’t enough rules or that they aren’t being enforced strictly enough.  It’s the the rules are not enforced equitably.

  • cwinton

    Follow the money.  The NCAA is funded from rights fees and championships, and so has a vested interest in seeing its member institutions, especially the big ones, being positioned so that they produce a lot of revenue.  The inherent conflict of interest to protect its income stream is undoubtedly a major factor in the NCAA’s increasingly lax enforcement of its own rules.  Since the NCAA is unlikely to go away, perhaps an independent enforcement agency can be set up that has no financial stake in the outcome of an enforcement action.  The trick would be determining how best to set up and fund such an agency so that it could operate in a truly independent manner.

  • jbarman

    cwinton is correct. Placing bans on the money-making majors in football or basketball would diminish interest and cash from signature events like bowl games and March madness. For that reason, these schools are typically given a bye when transgressions occur.

    Remember Mike Tyson? Here was an individual with so many demons, transgressions, and violations that he should have been denied a license to fight anywhere in the US (he was, in fact, jailed on rape charges). Had he not been such a notable figure of interest and such a money-maker for fight promoters, agents, and TV contracts, he would have received entirely different treatment.

  • show_me_the_money

    Not sure exactly what you’re comparing.  There are also plenty of “big-money” programs that have some pretty outlandish violations.  These violations result in the same loss of scholarships and post season bans just like a mid-major school.  In many instances a “big-money” school will receive a harsher penalty, because the NCAA wants to make an “example” out of them.  So… I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment.  I’m the opposite of you, if the NCAA was serious about enforcing the rules they would quit handing out “slaps on the wrist” and enforce the strictest penalties, even for the most minor violations.