Shop Talk: Friday, September 23

I don’t know why you DIDN’T share with the reference checker that you had asked this fellow to use other people for references.  Somehow your article comes off that you are feeling guilty for not being a GOOD reference. If you’ve asked him to use others, but he persists in listing you — why should you NOT be honest to anyone who calls?  “I don’t know him well”.  “I’ve asked him not to list me as a reference.”  “In general my very few interactions with him haven’t been positive”.  “I don’t have anything else to say.”  All you owe your colleague, and the least you owe the reference checker.

This reminds me of an international student in the school where I was teaching who asked me to write him a reference for his application to doctoral studies. I said “I don’t know you!” and he smiled (this particular culture believes that charming men can work their wiles with women), and said he had seen me around. I told him I had seen him around too and that he wouldn’t want my recommendation because I would ask why anyone would approach a stranger for such an important piece of the application!

He persisted in getting other faculty to pressure me, so I gave him the option of writing me a paper on a topic that I could evaluate, and also providing me with a detailed biography of his work experience, schooling and other related activities and THEN I would write a letter of recommendation being very clear about how and what I knew of him. 

He went away and I never heard from him again…

I wish everyone in the field would just lighten up. We’re all full of anxiety about jobs and sometimes people need your help. Even if they didn’t behave perfectly according to protocol, win good karma for yourself by being flexible and helping them out. The world doesn’t need more backbiting, undermining, and sabotage.

I agree with squirrelgirl.  This is most certainly not a case of backbiting or sabotage. The candidate did not ask the writer to be a reference.   So the person needing the reference has no reason to expect a positive endorsement.  What you are suggesting is that they lie about the candidate for no good reason.  Why should she endorse someone she hardly knows when it could potentially cause someone who actually deserves to get the job to not get hired.

I had a grad student in class once who was often downright rude to me in class, rolling her eyes and implying I didn’t know what I was talking about. I wasn’t on her committee and never knew her well. What I did know from her behavior towards me in class, I didn’t like. Imagine my surprise when she listed me, rather than any of her committee members, as a reference for jobs!

Put yourself on the receiving side–would you want a false or disingenuous reference report?  Not likely.  So I deliver as I would like to receive–honest, straightforward (no verbal games), and to the point. 

As a department chairman I was once given a rather glowing report for a faculty candidate by an alleged reputable colleague, enough to make the hire. Once on board it became quite clear that the candidate failed his tenure application and had some caustic professional relationships, but was being covered by the colleague–out of his hair and into ours. I grew to like the idea of off-the-list inquiries, i.e., call someone who is not on the reference list.

New hires can be expensive in many ways (I’ve heard the figure $1,000,000 over a professional life time, but the less tangible elements can be even more valuable), so honesty to everyone is the best tactic. I tell inquiring students that I can speak well of them and will be glad to be a reference, or that I cannot (usually because of insufficient experience with them) and that someone else may be better to include. Good professional and personal ethics = no anxiety attacks.

I totally agree with squirrelgirl. I recently had a student ask me for a letter of reference who has great potential but a track record of poor focus and followthrough, as his grade in my class reflected. I informed him I would be honest in my letter, which I was. I am not sure my reference will be of any help to him for his future educational plans, but I am not going to stake my reputation on a student who thinks potential and a smile will make up for a less-than-stellar on-the-job performance.

I honestly can’t believe a colleague would do that.  

The mistake a lot of young people make is thinking that a reference or letter of recommendation is part of the pakcage that they get by attending a school, taking classes in a particluar major, or  simply managing to graduate…

I have been a career counselor, and a college career center director for many years.  I have always provided very specific instructions to our students and alumni regarding preparing a list of references.

First and formemost, you must get a potential reference’s permission to list her or him.  If they say yes, you must ask next ask them how they would like to be contacted, thus they give the specific contact information (which phone number, which email adress to use, etc.) that they can best be reached fro matters such as this.

Next, but equally important, you must ALWAYS notify each reference when you are actively submitting graduate school, internship, externship or employment applications. A brief description of the specific program or job should be emailed to them.  We also encourage the inclusion of a current copy of a CV or resume so that the referencer can brush/get a refresher on you and what you do/have done.  It also may provide the referencer with additional insights into the other aspects of your college career.  It is hard to beat a reference who says “I am still amazed that her GPA was so high while she worked two part-time jobs and was president of the Wangdoodle Club her senior year.”  In addition, this gives the reference a “heads up” that a call, email, or mailed form may be coming in regard to your application or job search.  It can be awkward to feel or sound surprised when one gets a call for a reference, especially regarding someone you haven’t seen or heard from in years, or who, by no fault of their own, just wasn’t that memeorable of a student.

Also, it is important that as women marry, they notify references of the name change. It is also a great way to keep you somewhat fresh in the mind of the referencer.  Many years ago I was unable to provide a reference to a former student who had graduated a few years prior because I did not recognize her name. Example: Susi Smith became Suzanna Johanneson.  The only additional information that the caller offered was: “well, she worked on the school newspaper.”  Several weeks later I heard from a colleague who knew of her marriage and new name that he had given her a reference, but she did not get the job.  There is no way to know if my statement, “Hmmmm, I do not recall a student by that name” played a part, but it can’t help to hear that an applicant is not remembered by someone they specifically chose to list as a reference.

Finally, it is important to begin discussing the idea that “college is your first career” early on (we do this first semester of the freshman year) and that the building and maintenance of positive relationships and good reputation with faculty and administrators is essential…. and that it is absolutely critical with professors from their chosen major.  I find it mostly sad yet somewhat entertaining when a student who put forth minimum effort, was a campus troublemaker, or was regularly rude and disrespectful during class, etc. would then approach a faculty member or administrator for a reference or letter of recommendation.  The look of astonishment that comes when I explain to them that I am unable to provide a reference due to a specific (or list) act or behaviors… that past behavior is the best predictor of future performance… etc. is stunning to me.  We also take time to explain to our freshman (and all students that seek career counseling and acadmic advising) that if there is not a single professor in your major who is willing to reference you, then it will raise red flags.  A reference list from a graduating senior that lists a high school coach, and a boss from a part-time job two Summers ago, or a list of “personal”-type references will create in my mind grave concerns about how that student conducted him or herself over the past few years in college, that is, the person they are maturing into,…. The bottom-line is that it doesn’t matter how high your GPA is if you are a jerk and impossible to get along with.  I have written glowing references for average students who are hardworking, have a positive attitude, and work hard to learn.  I am certainly frank about their academic performance, but take the time to comment on their gowth during their time in my class, at our school, and their potential.

To put it simply, a request for a reference should never be a surprise.

Not exactly for someone I hardly know, but I have been asked to provide a reference that I could absolutely not provide.

Actually, the circumstances were kind of funny. As a grad student I had this one guy, a major in my department, take two classes in a row with me. He was pretty smart and knew a decent amount about the subject, but he was also insufferably arrogant and put almost no effort into his work. The next semester, I happened to be taking a Spanish class and had a fellow grad student as my instructor. Half-way through the semester, I receive an email from Arrogance McSmartypants that is CC’ed to me, my Spanish teacher, and a few other people. In it, Mr. McSmartypants asks us, en masse, to provide a job reference for him. The only thing is that he needs us to lie and say that we are faculty and not grad students. I never responded to the email, but had a good laugh about it with my Spanish instructor.

On the topic of being a reference for a student…a student who graduated 5 years ago asked me to serve as a reference and write a letter for her for a k-12 teaching position.  She has been working off and on as a teacher since she graduated and it seems to me that the people she has worked for and with in that time will be able to make stronger statements about her performance as a teacher.  In fact I was unable to answer 2/3rds of the questions on one of online requests for information because I simply don’t know how she conducts her self in or out of her own classroom as a teacher.

She has asked me again this year to be a reference for her, but she doesn’t seem to understand when I explain why I am probably not the best reference for her now.  I get the impression that she can’t or won’t ask her former co-workers and supervisors.

At what point should a former student no longer rely on their undergrad college professors for references, especially if they have not stayed in contact?

The moment you mentioned karma, you opened yourself up to the criticism of your colleagues–a pack of hungry jackals who have, in their ivory-tower hubris, forgotten their humanity. They all lack imagination, but clearly, not jobs, It’s my fervent hope that those who claim to be “honest” yet have hurt any person’s chance at future employment, find themselves wanting in the not so distant future. Let them worry about what their professional references will say about them. Let’s hope these references are equally “honest.”

Do not think yourselves so important that your reputation rests on every word you say about a student or colleague who failed to meet your standards of perfection. Instead, look in the mirror. There may be more flaws than you think.

As far as helping someone you barely know for “no good reason,” how about simply because they need help? That’s not a good enough reason? What would be a better reason?

I’m disgusted by the comments I’ve read here today, with the exception of J. Samson. When did you lose your sense of compassion? Or, did you never develop one at all?

It can be telling to a hiring committee that you were listed as a reference but hardly knew the person.  I haven’t been unwittingly or unwillingly placed in that situation, but I have been asked to write references for individuals who believed they did not have to tell me anything about why they needed a reference or for whom they needed it.  In that case, I’ve asked for answers to those questions and not having received them, refused to give the reference. 

It’s appalling that you weren’t given a choice and that he thought you’d give him a reference the next time on the basis of his expression of disrespect for your “collegiality.”  It’s a step up from the narcissism of people who think that if they say “please,” you are obligated to do as they ask and only a small step down from the attitude of “I feel I need xyz, and for that reason, you should give it to me.”  You’re under no such obligation.

One good reference should not be enough to make a faculty hire; you must admit to simplifying your scenario in this regard. Your candidate had to have had something more to back their candidacy, like appropriate publications, positive student evaluations, etc. All candidates who interview typically interview with the committee, present material to the department, teach a class, meet with the dean, and meet with the department chair–that’s a lot of opportunity to disspell any artificial reference you may have received. If you want honesty, you may want to start with yourself. Choosing top faculty for any hiring committee is extraordinarily important; if you have some underacheivers on a committee, they may look for a candidate who won’t show them up. That’s not healthy for any department, and as you so aptly point out, can be quite costly as well.

In my career as a professor, graduate program director and associate dean, I have come across a large number of students, maybe 20% of all students who asked me, who do not know how to ask for a letter of recommendation. Some never took the time to acquaint themselves to me after having graduated several years ago, some currently enrolled students
did not bother giving me an addressed envelope, and the list goes on. I post the following information at my web site and include it in my presentations to students:

Selection of Letter Writer.  Someone Who Has

* Worked with you closely (e.g., teacher in a class that you actively participated, research supervisor)  

* Known you long enough to write with authority (not someone who’ll just say “she got a B+ in my course”)

* Relevant expertise, seniority and recognition

* A positive opinion of you

* A warm and supportive personal style

* How do you find such a person? – Work on it

Making Sure Letter is Sent

* Give writers plenty of time (~3 weeks, after which you gently ask)

* Give writers a well-organized packet that includes

      Vita

      Addressed, stamped envelope (for paper recommendations)

      Fill out all information in the forms

      Cover note including your contact info, deadlines, career goals, and what needs to be emphasized in the letter

On the other hand, students (and graduates) in need of letters sometimes know very few people to write letters for them. They end up asking someone who knows them marginally. As people in academia, we should not let them down. One thing we can do in such circumstances is to contact
the student and ask them to provide more information about themselves.

In not all cases is the candidate to blame. A former colleague of mine would contact friends of his with whom a candidate works/worked and obtain an informal/unauthorized reference. His theory was that his friend would provide a candid appraisal. Of course, in more than one case, the friend was a direct competitor of the person under discussion, so the reference was less than stellar. And, obviously, the person being called would have been surprised to hear from the interviewer.

 Actually, I do know the truth – mine.  It doesn’t have to be your truth, his truth, or her truth.  It’s my truth, and it deserves respect for being just that.  When asked to give a reference, I am asked to share my truth with someone else who wants to use it to predict their truth.  
This can lead to some shaky predictions, and there’s nothing wrong with me thinking twice about what I say that I know might be misleading to some who are predicting for very different contexts.  Professionalism, ability to work effectively with difficult people (and like most humans that includes me sometimes), and their obvious productivity are all part of my truth.  And when I know,  or trained under, or have my work reviewed by the professionals reading that letter or asking for that reference, then my name and reputation are associated with what I say and do (as they should be for all people).

My ego may be the size of Milwaukee or just Rhode Island, and I may or may not have delusions, but I think I’m less judgmental than you.