The release last week of the Time/Pew poll on the state of marriage in the U.S. has created a media frenzy. Everyone is bemoaning the fact that marriage is now, according to the Time article on the poll,
the relationship equivalent of a luxury yacht—hard to get, laborious to maintain but a better vessel to be on when there are storms at sea—its status is unlikely to drop. As it stands, the way America marries is making the American Dream unreachable for many of its people.
According to the survey, marriage is now for the middle and upper classes.
In 2008, there was a 16 percentage point gap in marriage rates between college graduates (64%) and those with a high school diploma or less (48%). In 1960, this gap had been just four percentage points (76% vs. 72%).
The report from Time/Pew comes on the heels of “The State of Our Unions” from University of Virginia’s National Marriage Project. According to this project’s head, sociologist Bradford Wilcox,
The retreat from marriage in Middle America means that all too many Americans will not be able to realize the American Dream. On average, marriage plays a key role in securing the welfare of children. (Studies show ) children are much more likely to thrive if they are raised in a married home with their own mother and father.”
The media, for the most part, have followed Wilcox’s lead in throwing their hands in the air to bemoan the fact that people are having babies, but not getting married. Ross Douthat at The New York Times calls the trend “depressing” and argues that it will be remembered as
the great tragedy of the culture war: While college-educated Americans battle over what marriage should mean, much of the country may be abandoning the institution entirely.
Over at NPR’s Talk of the Nation there was a lot of tut-tutting. Even at the somewhat more staid Wall Street Journal, the decline in marriage rates is being described as “alarming.”
What I find “interesting,” “alarming,” and “depressing” is not that a particular social institution has less relevance for many Americans, even as “family” and “love” continue to organize how we live, but that all these meaning makers, these academics and journalists, cannot see the forest for the trees.
The trees make the commentators beat their chests about the decline of marriage, all the while ignoring the huge forest, the structural changes that have reshaped not just marriage, but work, family, sex, love, and friendship. For instance, Professor Wilcox and other commentators on the data claim that it is the presence of a mother and father that makes children thrive. But that ignores how important food security, access to a reasonable public education and medical care are to the well-being of children. In the past 30 years, the U.S. has seen a huge redistribution of wealth that has resulted in a record number of Americans living in poverty. Over 40% of children living in low income families. And the numbers of children living with food insecurity has risen sharply in the past couple of years.
In other words, there have been huge structural changes—from deindustrialization, to a state-sponsored economic policy of redistributing wealth upwards, to decreased funding for policies that support families, like public education. That Americans who have suffered the most in the “new” economy have retreated from marriage and that Americans who have benefited the most have embraced it should not be seen as a moral failing, but a human response to what is necessary and what isn’t.
The trees that prevent academics and journalists from actually analyzing the data—instead of just moralizing over it—are of course grown from the cultural conscious and labeled good and evil. Marriage is good, always. Having children without being married is bad, always. Monogamy is good; a less disciplined sexuality is bad (for more on this, see this article on the “genetic basis of one night stands“).
But the truth is, being married doesn’t make anyone a better person and if all those married commentators could stop judging struggling Americans, they could perhaps redirect their judgment for policy makers who continue to redistribute wealth to the wealthiest all the while leaving most American families, married and unmarried, behind.


39 Responses to We Need Marriage Like We Need Yachts
trendisnotdestiny - December 7, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Well stated Laurie!
Its the same type of revisionistic thinking that accompanies recent social security discussions (why didn’t people save more) or (how did we accrue so much debt?)…. when times get tough, the corporatist’s blame individuals for poor decision making with help, of course, from complicit academics waiting to jerk off of the elite echo chamber in their latest journal publications (obfuscating real processes that led to problems that they helped create)…
stinkcat - December 7, 2010 at 1:10 pm
“to a state-sponsored economic policy of redistributing wealth upwards”
There is an old saying that it is better to remain quiet and be perceived a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I think our friend Laurie ought to stop exposing her economic ignorance. Just what policy redistributes wealth upwards? It cannot be our progressive income tax because the tip 1% already pays 38% of our total personal income tax collections. So then what is our policy that redistributes income upward?
marktropolis - December 7, 2010 at 1:51 pm
stinkcat, three words: Capital Gains Tax.
And let’s not forget that these poor folks in the 1% were being taxed at rates far higher than they are now just 20 years ago. And let us not forget that same 1% OWNS almost 40% of the wealth in this country. Shouldn’t they pay taxes on that?
That said, the discussion with you probably won’t go very much farther, as I’m sure you are morally opposed to progressive taxation (as in those that have the most should give back the most). On the other hand, you may want to check with all the billionaires in this country. If memory serves, a good chunk of them signed a letter a few weeks ago saying something to the effect of “yes please, tax us more.”
Back to Laurie’s piece: Amen. I took the time to download the piece from the National Marriage Project. Turns out the piece is co-produced with the Institute for American Values. Curious connection here, as Claire Guadiani is listed as one of their senior fellows, and Innovation’s blogger Peter Wood was the other day praising Guadiani’s work as it relates to conservative philanthropy. But that’s somewhat beside the point.
The reality is that this “State of Our Unions” series is really coming from the perspective that you kids *have* to be raised in two-parent households. Interestingly, Blankenhorn, who is the CEO of American Values has come out in support of civil unions – in large part because he finds the data on tow-parent households so compelling. That said, he was one of the founders of the National Fatherhood Initiative with some support from George H.W. Bush.
Also, at what point are we going to re-define the “American Dream”? (“The retreat from marriage in Middle America means that all too many Americans will not be able to realize the American Dream.”) Seeing as it seems to be about buying houses. And we see where that’s gotten us…
pocvecem - December 7, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Laurie Essig wrote:
“That Americans who have suffered the most in the ‘new’ economy have retreated from marriage and that Americans who have benefited the most have embraced it should not be seen as a moral failing, but a human response to what is necessary and what isn’t.”
Or maybe our columnist needs to realize that correlation is not the same as causation. (I see that problem a lot in this column.) Essig notably believes that this is a “human response to what is necessary and what isn’t.” She also wrote about the paramount importance of “food security, access to a reasonable public education and medical care are to the well-being of children.” I see no argument here that marriage does not help parents provide this for their children? I do think that the correlation between income and marriage rates deserves more investigation, but what we have here is pure speculation.
If the decline in marriage in Middle America were a “human response to what is necessary and what isn’t,” don’t you think the unmarried would have found a better way to provide for themselves and their children? Where an alternative might have been proposed, there is a gaping vacuum. I don’t think marriage is necessary for all people, but circumstances seem to make it highly beneficial to many individuals.
And I’m pretty sure our culture does not subscribe to “Marriage is good, always. Having children without being married is bad, always.” Where has our columnist been since Dan Quayle got ridiculed for the Murphy Brown debacle?
goxewu - December 7, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Some things to factor in here:
* Marriage used to be considered necessary for all people who wanted to have sex lives. Now it’s not.
* The decline of marriage rates and increase in divorce rates is higher in the “red states,” spite of the presence of a greater percentage of political leaders who advocate marriage and would like to discourage divorce.
* Marriage is most often officiated by clergy, and the places where it’s declining most are in the more “churched” areas of the country.
* The people who seem most enthusiastic about marriage are relatively affluent, urban gays and lesbians.
* The traditional American idea of marriage includes a husband at work during the weekdays and a wife (and eventually mother) at home, “keeping house.” The single-breadwinner household is a vanishing entity–for economic reasons, mostly–in the middle and working classes, those classes in which marriage is declining most.
* It used to be disgraceful for a woman (yes, it was the woman who was disgraced) to have an “illegitimate” child “out of wedlock.” “Unmarried mother” has now been subsumed into “single mom,” a category including widows and divorcées. Now, it’s hardly disgraceful. And, albeit to comparatively little economic benefit to the “single mom,” paternity can now be absolutely proved.
* Marriages as often as not end in divorce, and young people know that, which means that they know that saying “I do” probably means having to say “I’m leaving”–most likely in acrimonious circumstances–later. It’s an old saying among football coaches that one is fired the day one is hired. But football coaches are a special breed, something that cannot be expected of ordinary people considering marriage.
* With large and general social trends, correlation is as close as one will get to causation. This is not epidemiology; there’s no “patient zero” here. And it’s difficult to do a meaningful survey; “So why aren’t you getting married?” is not condusive to statistically userful answers. So, it’s a matter of picking one’s correlations: economic conditions (usually a pretty good bet; if people aren’t buying cars in general, it’s probably because they don’t have the money and not because they don’t like the styling), changes in mores (which sometimes prompts the follow question, “Well, why are the mores changing?”), bureaucratic barriers, etc.
stinkcat - December 7, 2010 at 4:00 pm
“And let’s not forget that these poor folks in the 1% were being taxed at rates far higher than they are now just 20 years ago. And let us not forget that same 1% OWNS almost 40% of the wealth in this country. Shouldn’t they pay taxes on that?
That said, the discussion with you probably won’t go very much farther, as I’m sure you are morally opposed to progressive taxation (as in those that have the most should give back the most).”
Actually, if you bother to look at the statistics, back in 1986 the top 1% of taxpayers paid about 26% of all personal income tax receipts, today it is almost 40%. That is quite a significant jump. The real question is what percent is enough? Would you accept a smaller marginal rate at the top in exchange the the richest paying a larger percent of the total?
I am not necessarily opposed to a progressive income tax, but I think our whole system needs to be overhauled. For example, we need to eliminate most itemized deductions, such as the mortgage interest deduction. The wealthy disparately benefits from this deduction and it funnels investment into the nonproductive sector of the economy.
pocvecem - December 7, 2010 at 4:36 pm
@ goxewu:
I have no arguments with the factual points in your post. (I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, but I take no issue with the information.) But I do see one or two minor issues. Just because it’s difficult to do a meaningful survey does not mean it is not possible to get good results. One does not does not have to ask “Why aren’t you getting married?” directly to get an answer to that question. The social scientific side of sex research is a good example of researchers getting decent results on personal topics.
“Picking one’s correlations” misses the issue. If a correlation is the best information we have, it should be used as a starting point for obtaining better information. Your examples don’t defend the idea you put forth because you’re discussing demonstrable (albeit hypothetical) causations.
rbannist - December 7, 2010 at 7:28 pm
While it took me years of contemplation, I can no longer justify arguments that would continue to use the law to ban gay marriages. The bottom line, how are the most strident homophobe’s daily lives affected if two committed individuals chose to form a life long bond?
The real social issue is casual sex resulting in children (especially for young teenage mothers — the younger the more dangerous). Parenting is the ultimate responsibility, and children are best served by two loving parents where mothers and fathers each serve a unique roll in the child’s upbringing.
A myriad of social disasters have born-out-of-wedlock children at the heart of the issue. Young women, committed to children, find their growth in education and career preparation cut short, often reducing their earning power, and thus raising children in poverty. How much of gang culture and the young man’s pursuit of male bonding, in essence, the alpha-male persona and more, are the result of young men with no real fatherly influence.
Talk to teachers who teach these kids and hear their war stories if they’ll drop the veneer of political correctness and “Who are we to judge” nonsense.
We live in a society where people seem to believe anything they can do and want to do, they should be allowed to do so, and curses on anyone who would criticize their behavior. The critic becomes the “blanky-blanky phobic.” The irresponsible self indulgent person who has children out of wedlock or out of a context which provides TWO parents is enobled.
Yes, some single mothers deserve sainthood status. They do succeed at the duties remarkably well and make sacrifices beyond belief to give their kids the best of everything one person can provide.
Whether you accept God made us a certain way — two sexes wih some unique qualities for a reason or you accept certain aspects of growing up and maturing and human beings has us hardwired to have certain needs, the institution of marriage is the fundemental building block of our culture and when that stucture doesn’t exist, all that builds upon it — families, communities, towns and cities, states, and even the national government who wind up inventing all kinds of social programs to address the consequences, the secular notion of anything goes that doesn’t criticize our twisted secular ideology is just fine.
Surely, my weighing in on this subject apart from supporting same-sex marriage will have some labelling me as sexist, reactionary, bigotted, a religious nut (though I professed no alliance with any specific religion), or just a good old conservative nut case or hater. Fine — I’ll put the doctrine of personal responsibility up against political correctness and contempt for he well-to-do any day.
Abstinance is a responsible (though very difficult) pursuit. Having children without regard to awesome responsibility it repreents is STUPID. People should be held accountable for the consequences of their decisions. Part of education must be demonstrating the consequences of certain choices and not sustaining an anything goes ethos.
None of these issues can be fully understood without taking into consideration the consequences of one’s decision.
Chosing not to marry and have children anyway might not be “evil” but there are plenty of young ladies who chose to have babies or engage in unprotected sex who could be making the most idiotic decisions of their lives. Can we not any longer tell young people that they would be absolute nutcases to have children without finishing high school, without considering how the father can be actively engaged in the child’s life, any many other issues?
We’ve heard the excuses, “I had a baby because I wanted somebody I knew would love me.” “I know if I have a child I won’t be lonely.” Some notions would be just as stupid as if someone were deciding to have a dog, a cat, or even a gold fish, but one can flush a gold fish down the toilet with no fault. There animal shelters for dogs or cats — oops, we have a lot of stray animals because people made stupid decisions and then just abandon their pets. The way some treat their children isn’t that much better and society can see the results.
Go ahead, make my day, rip my warped ideas to pieces.
goxewu - December 7, 2010 at 9:46 pm
One question to rbannist: Should abortion be, as per Roe v. Wade, legal?
Young people are going to have sex. The horse has left the barn on that one. Rbannist admits that abstinence is “very difficult.” (And it isn’t just the fault of permissive liberals. Check out “My Bare Lady” [porn stars in new jobs] or “Battle of the Bods” on Fox’s reality channel.) Some of the young unmarried women are going to get pregnant. If they want abortions but can’t legally get them, they’ll have the babies and create the situations that rbannist abhors.
So…?
goxewu - December 7, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Re pocvecem:
Believe it or not, I wasn’t trying to make a point, generally, I was just trying to throw some unmentioned and underattended-to things into the mix.
But, yes, there was one point. Correlation is not necessarily causation. We all learn that in Whatever 101. Sometimes, though, when combined with a little common sense, everyday experience and just a soupçon of imagination (not “Inception,” just “Yeah, I could see that”) correlation does seem to provide the best answer as to cause. When the economy tanks and jobs are hard to find, more young men enlist in the military. The tanked economy and lack of jobs correlates with military enlistments. Sure, there could be other factors: a sudden fashion for patriotism, or enlistment commercials on UFC telecasts. And lengthy, precise interviews with enlistees could tweak the result some. But the tanked economy and lack of jobs and increased military enlistments are just coincidence?
amnirov - December 8, 2010 at 7:16 am
All I know is that I’m a top ten percent wage earner and I am sick and tired of paying disproportionately excessive taxes to support people who lack education or employable skills and yet who have children they cannot afford.
In this climate, we should cut welfare programs and funnel money to students and active job seekers. Let’s focus efforts on people who show promise of productivity.
trendisnotdestiny - December 8, 2010 at 8:28 am
@ amnirov,
“All I know is that I’m a top ten percent wage earner and I am sick and tired of paying disproportionately excessive taxes to support people who lack education or employable skills and yet who have children they cannot afford. In this climate, we should cut welfare programs and funnel money to students and active job seekers. Let’s focus efforts on people who show promise of productivity.”
You should define some things for readers here with these statements:
First, tell us why your wage earning status is relevant to your own personal feelings of paying taxes (where wage and asset disparities have worsened to 70 year high). When things are well, you don’t mind? Or is it that you want off the tax paying ship, when the weather is choppy?
Second, why are you so sick and tired now (as if this is a new feeling and you have at one point in time believed that we Americans are in this together)?
Third, please discuss disproportionately excessive taxes. Educate us about what these terms mean as well as account for the rising costs in healthcare, education and commodities prices and who should take on their burden (at a time when corporate taxes are at an all time low).
Fourth, illuminate us on your understanding of where your tax dollars go (local, state and federal). Its not enough to say you pay too much in taxes and then blame under performing individuals when we know that graft and fraud takes place at many local and state levels (see Birmingham Alabama) as well as kickbacks to corporations.
Fifth, so your idea is cut off the deadwood in the economy and double down support to those who seem the most promising (the ones who already have resources). How does this help move our country along without creating an even more bifurcated and risky investment.
gypsyboots - December 8, 2010 at 10:33 am
Wrong on all counts.
Marriage became the middle-class norm during the 19th century (the previous century saw much looser sexual mores and widespread illegitimacy) at a time when income inequality was originally much greater than now. The marriage norm helped narrow it because solid families provide environments that make children’s success more likely. The notion that two-parent families are better for children is soundly established apart from “judgments.” “We” (single or childless commentators) may not “need” marriage, but children do.
In fact, recent studies of the poor academic performance of low-income black males are finally beginning to acknowledge what many have long known: parenting and the cultural encouragement of learning (or lack of it) are more important for academic success than income levels, even though those are important. If the child lives in a chaotic home environment with no stable caregivers where learning is denigrated or ignored, especially for males, no amount of spending-per-pupil in schools can totally overcome that disadvantage. Seems like common sense, but “blame society” dies hard among true believers.
We’ve seen many times what making the state into a substitute parent does, whether in communist countries, Sweden, or in kibbutzes. It doesn’t work. When are “we” going to finally learn that government isn’t Mommy and Daddy?
goxewu - December 8, 2010 at 11:16 am
* What are the test scores for schoolchildren in Sweden, compared to those in the US?
* Does the Government being “Mommy and Daddy” include having public schools at all?
* “…even though [income levels] are important.” How important?
* “…no amount of spending-per-pupil can TOTALLY overcome that disadvantage.” [Emphasis mine]
* Does the state actually “substitute” itself for parents in Sweden? (Kibbutzes are a comparatively tiny phenomenon, and there practically no really “communist countries” left other than Cuba and North Korea. And those communist countries that fell, fell for reasons other than their parenting policies.)
* “If the child lives in a chaotic home environment with no stable caregivers where learning is denigrated or ignored…” Chaotic home environments are often caused by poverty–constant moving, living in shelters, both parents working a couple of bad jobs, latch-key kids. “Learning…ignored” often owes to poverty, too: no books, no homework help from overworked parents, no tools such as laptops, etc.
* “…parenting and the cultural encouragement of learning (or lack of it) are more important for academic success than income levels…” So if these things are lacking in a kid’s life, and the Government shouldn’t become “Mommy and Daddy” by trying to help out, who’s going to do it–the free market? Or do we just let those kids sink?
22097984 - December 8, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I recall in the 1970′s being given a set of “Gray Literature” studies in psychology (advanced, masters level material using post WWII longitudinal data) that were pointing out the key variable in children to adult achievement was household structure. Remember, this was just a decade or so after the Moynihan Report, so this material existed in the grey area to be read by people interested in the question, but too politically hot to publish in the more serious journals. Now, 40 years later, we seem to be willing to publically have a conversation that has been known, in field, for 40 years.
Regarding above:
“*What are the test scores for schoolchildren in Sweden, compared to those in the US?”
Look on-line. There was a MAJOR report this past week that pointed this material out (See the obscure source NEW YORK TIMES). A quick correlation will point out a strong link between household structure and child test performance.
“* Does the Government being “Mommy and Daddy” include having public schools at all?”
For me, no, I would not support government schools at all. But, I am clearly more extreme than others and I home school. FYI: I would support a voucher model to let parents send their kids to a school that does work. But that is a separate conversation.
“* “…even though [income levels] are important.” How important?”
Best estimates are that up to about $85,000 of HOUSEHOLD income (about X2 median household income in the USA and gosh, that number is easier to get with 2+ incomes) each $10,000 is worth about .25-.35 in average ACT score. Similar measures have been done for GPA, SAT …. Again, like country specific data, this is not obscure information. It is available in all or nearly all popular press. A educated person should know this.
“* “…no amount of spending-per-pupil can TOTALLY overcome that disadvantage.” [Emphasis mine]”
Conclude what?
“* Does the state actually “substitute” itself for parents in Sweden? (Kibbutzes are a comparatively tiny phenomenon, and there practically no really “communist countries” left other than Cuba and North Korea. And those communist countries that fell, fell for reasons other than their parenting policies.)”
Yes, in fact, this is part of OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY to emphasize that “Swedishness” (community) is more important than faith and family (which are viewed as personal). The more aggressive forms include such things as very large and long civics section to the standard curriculum and requiring children to follow the voting choices of others. So, for example, on Monday only the boys vote of the recess game while on Tuesday, only the girls. Things like this. The objective is to breakdown religious and culture teaching regarding males leadership of households….. Again, people may disagree with the wisdom of these policies. But the state asserts its responsibility to provide support where families deviate from the community determined objective.
“* “If the child lives in a chaotic home environment with no stable caregivers where learning is denigrated or ignored…” Chaotic home environments are often caused by poverty–constant moving, living in shelters, both parents working a couple of bad jobs, latch-key kids. “Learning…ignored” often owes to poverty, too: no books, no homework help from overworked parents, no tools such as laptops, etc.”
That is the point many, many people have been making. The evidence says that the chaos goes beyond the income/social structure variables. Given the better long-term data, advanced undergraduate statistics can isolate the variables (it is child’s play for serious statisticians, biostatisticians, and econometricians to do this).
“* “…parenting and the cultural encouragement of learning (or lack of it) are more important for academic success than income levels…” So if these things are lacking in a kid’s life, and the Government shouldn’t become “Mommy and Daddy” by trying to help out, who’s going to do it–the free market? Or do we just let those kids sink?”
Short answer, the issue would be does the government policy encourage still more of the problem we are trying to address. If housing assistance encourages poor choices by potential parents, does helping the very really needy child today encourage 2 needy children tomorrow? The answer maybe that we still want to help the needy kid today, but asking the question is not evil or unreasonable.
trendisnotdestiny - December 8, 2010 at 12:44 pm
gypsyboots,
“In fact, recent studies of the poor academic performance of low-income black males are finally beginning to acknowledge what many have long known: parenting and the cultural encouragement of learning (or lack of it) are more important for academic success than income levels, even though those are important.”
You make a distinction into distinct and separate categories (parenting and cultural encouragement) and (income levels)…. However, you are missing the inter-connectivity between how money and culture interact… Income is just one measure of financial health, but lets’ stick to it since you seem so sure of the findings you refer to.
Healthcare costs, commodities, college tuition and housing (circa 1995-2006)were all significantly higher the inflation rate. The loss of many skilled job opportunities means that many have to worker longer for less or find alternative employment. The trans-generational resources (family babysitting, emergency $$$ and role models/personal contacts connected to power) are not plentiful for working class families. At the precise same time, public money is being converted into privatized pockets of wealth affecting public resources like (YMCA, Libraries, Schools, Community Agencies etc). Not having enough time, money or resources is intimately connected to parental encouragement or oversight of the educational process. It would be hard to separate these into categories and draw these conclusion in a culture that espouses time is money. Explain yourself!
Second there are so many more measures than just income affecting family support of student education just in a financial sense. How about assets or liabilities? How about trans-generational wealth affecting academic success? How about their FICO score (ability to access cheap credit)? How about their family patterns around money (addiction, debt, & investing in the future)….. Since we don’t have a national financial literacy program, why do we expect people to figure it out on their own while we have banks, hedge funds and corporations guilty of defrauding average families across the country? I wonder if your the conclusions deviates from reality looking for one essential aspect of the N for black males in this society when there are more obvious explanations…..
Please list some of the recent studies and authors so that we may assess the compartmentalization of one construct (income) and compare it to such a large theme of parental encouragement of academic success….
trendisnotdestiny - December 8, 2010 at 12:48 pm
ignore distinct (typo and did not proofread)… arghhhhh
goxewu - December 8, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Re 22097984:
Thanks for the answers. I’m sure that gypsyboots is grateful.
Some follow-up:
* I wasn’t asking if in Sweden there’s a strong correlation between family structure and pupils’ test scores. (I was asking if the state by being, according to gypsyboots, a “substitute parent” on a magnitude not seen in the U.S., had driven its kids’ test scores below ours.
* Would 22097984′s voucher system consists of Government, taxpayer-financed vouchers for the full tuition of any school that the kid can get into? Or is it the usual $3,000 – $6,000 toward, say, a $25,000 tuition at a private school? (That’s nice if you’ve got the $19,000 – $22,000 rest.) One of the criticisms of voucher systems is that they amount to subsidies for the relatively affluent that will make the schools for those who can afford to pay little or no tuition even worse. Is this the education front in the war to “starve the beast”?
* The “official government policy” in Sweden in 22097984′s description seems to have to do with how things are done in school, not at home. In my experience, the experience of my kids and my friends and their kids is that some kind of government entity determines how things are done in public schools. Also, a “very large and long civics section” is something usually advocated by education conservatives i this country.
* I take it that 22097984 means to indicate that income levels below $85,000 annual family income don’t have much of an effect on ACT scores–only about a tenth of a point or a little more on an average total score of 25 per $10,000 increment. Or was 22097984 talking percentages in “.25-.35″? Side note: If one parent has a minimum-wage job (and a lot do–what does one think Mom gets as a cashier at the dollar store?), an $85,000 family income isn’t–gosh–all that easy to come by. Another side note: I’m educated (yes, really) and I didn’t know these stats. “A[n] educated person should know this” is gratuitious.
* “TOTALLY” and “Conclude what?” I thought I could leave it at implication: That increased per-pupil-spending (or making everybody take Latin, or suspending pupils for three flunked tests, or corporeal punishment, or school uniforms, or…) will not, of course, TOTALLY “overcome that disadvantage.”
* Asking the question whether the Government policy will encourage more of what it’s trying to alleviate is indeed fair. But so is the question of, “Is the Government going to say, ‘We could help you out, but to do so would only encourage others to need help, so we’re not going to”? The old saw about poverty, “If you want more of something, subsidize it,” plays a nice trick on the word “subsidize.” “Subsidizing” poverty isn’t done by making poverty less than absolutely unbearable; it’s done by making people poor. And Government policies other than about welfare (e.g., outsourcing, creating a service and FIRE economy, credit-card usury, race-to-the-bottom wage policies, etc.) have a lot to do with that.
Still waiting to hear back from rbannist–who’s possibly in shock from not having his “warped ideas” “rip[ped] to pieces”–on abortion.
pocvecem - December 8, 2010 at 2:41 pm
@ goxewu (from a few responses back):
And whose experience and imagination should we depend on? Going on the assumption that “experience and imagination” will lead people to radically different beliefs, why should these two things be accepted as a basis for knowledge? Inherently subjective accounts of “obvious” correlation can and do go incredibly awry.
It may be “Whatever 101,” but it’s still relevant to mention as long as people keep forgetting it.
And since rbannist has not returned, I’ll comment on the question you posed to him/her. “Abhor” is an incredibly strong word to describe rbannist’s view, at least based on what was posted. I would say (and I suspect that rbannist would agree) that abortion is substantially worse than single parenthood. And even if rbannist (or much of anyone else) “abhorred” single parenthood, it is not the only possible outcome of childbirth. Ever heard of adoption? Do you know how long the wait is for people who want to adopt a newborn?
goxewu - December 8, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Experience and imagination are among the bases for knowledge. Not the only ones, but bases. And yes, there’s a consider-the-source element at work…just as there is with, oh, stats from the Cato Institute.
Would that there were a cause-and-effect relation to pocvecem’s reciting “correlation is not causation” and people not forgetting it. Right now, there’s not even a correlation.
And I’m glad rbannist has friends who have his back.
First, rbannist’s saying, “Having children without regard to awesome responsibility it represents is STUPID. People should be held accountable for the consequences of their decisions,” and “there are plenty of young ladies who chose to have babies or engage in unprotected sex who could be making the most idiotic decisions of their lives…Can we not any longer tell young people that they would be absolute nutcases to have children without finishing high school,” and “The way some treat their children isn’t that much better and society can see the results” seem to me–and, I would aver, to most reasonable people–a regarding with repugnance and disgust (two definitions of “abhor”) the phenomenon of young people having babies out of wedlock and the kids’ being raised by “single moms.” “Abhor” is not only not an “incredibly strong” word to describe rbannist’s expressed regard, it’s not even merely “strong.” It’s accurate, that’s what it is.
And if, as, pocvecem suspects (ah, there’s that ol’ imagination at work!), rbannist would agree with him that abortion is substantially worse than single parenthood, then there’s got to be an even stronger word than “abhor” for that particular opinion.
Yes, I’ve heard of adoption, and unless one wants to make it as easy as buying Canadian drugs on the Internet, it’s a complicated process. Certainly, single moms can give up their newborns for adoption. But not a lot want to. Biology, bonding, etc., stuff that predates most American social conventions. (I suppose if there were no public assistance and the choice were between the baby actually starving or freezing and giving it up for adoption, we could kick up the supply a little to reduce the wait. Or maybe even have the authorities confiscate the babies for adoption, with poor single motherhood in itself constituting de facto “abuse.”) In short, adoption may be a solution for individual cases, but it can’t be made widespread enough to really put a dent in the problem rbannist abhors.
But I’d like to hear from the real rbannist.
fizmath - December 8, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Marriage is an institution found in every society that ever existed. How did this author come across some new discovery that the rest of humanity missed out on? Children who don’t have a mother and a father at home are missing out on something important.
lapcas - December 8, 2010 at 8:32 pm
The findings in the Time article don’t really square with my experience. I would have guessed that the decline in marriage rates would have been significant in upper-class, educated groups who seem to be eschewing marriage in favor of co-habitation and having children without a marriage license. What was once “living in sin” and often a marker of social class has now become socially progressive and acceptable. Moreover, successful female professionals are less likely to need to be married as they are likely to outearn potential male mates, so that has removed some pressure to marry. My general observation is that marriage is no longer a prerequisite to social respectability among educated, affluent people, but it looks like Time’s data is proving me wrong . . .
rbannist - December 9, 2010 at 3:24 am
In response to goxewu:
Abortion is a very troubling issue for me. If life does not begin at conception, when does it? That being said, for the state to compel an unwilling mother into child birth is also a very powerful moral problem.
While there’s something in my heart that would love to see abortion go away, having known three wonderful ladies who have confided in me that they had chosen to have abortions. These are intelligent, highly capable women, with very carefully defined values. There is no way I could ever debate their choices, advise them to the contrary, or not support their decisions knowning that for none of them it came easily and involved tremendous dilberation. One lady was a college student who has gone on to be very successful. One of the others was in a relationship falling apart with an alcoholic husband. They are both exceptional citizens and mothers today.
While I do not believe Roe versue Wade was ruled on the strongest of consitutional grounds, I feel that there are some things the male gender should just butt our of. My experience suggests abortion on demand should be legal without a lot of nonsense.
I also realize that if you are Pro Choice, as many people I respect dearly, there is no room for compromise since it is to them the destruction of human life.
I would hope schools, parents, churches, and the media would help communicate to young people the awesome responsibilities of parenthood and the risks of sex out of wedlock.
rbannist - December 9, 2010 at 3:34 am
Further response: That the “horse is out of the barn” as far as pervasive receational sex is concerned, maybe things are out of control right now, but this isn’t the kind of social phenomenon which presents the “you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube” situation.
I would like to see those responsible for raising young people to first set good examples avoiding “do as I say not as I do” conduct. Further I believe from the earliest time when children are first beginning to develop moral and cultural values, the sanctity of human life, the positive virtues of the family, and the consequences of at risk behavior are reinforced. This is by no means arguing for some kind of fundementalist upbringing. It’s not. It’s a doctrine of individual responsibility and respect for others. I assure the reader, if the family as a basic unit is threatened, then so are the larger structures that maintain our society.
goxewu - December 9, 2010 at 8:02 am
Many thanks to rbannist for his or her sincere, and indeed poignant, response. And rbannist honestly acknowledges, between the lines, that if you’re going to reduce the number of children raised in awful circumstances, women will have to have access to legal abortions.
But as to “recreational sex” (a strange term–as if married couples have sex only with the intent to reproduce, or as if dining at a restaurant as opposed to cooking and eating at home is “recreational eating”), the toothpaste is indeed out of the tube. In order to have young people not have sex outside of marriage, society would have to have a) young people marry in their late teens, latest, so that there’s no postgraduate (high school or college) single sex life, b) all the media, all of them, forego sexualized imagery and other content (e.g., no more hot babes to sell cars and beer), c) birth control radically unavailable so that fear of pregnancy could once again be a real deterrent, d) radically rolled back job equality for women, so that they’d not act so much as single, at-large, sexual free-agents, and so that they’d need the economic protection of a husband, f) it either legal or socially de facto acceptable for unmarried men to go to prostitutes so as to not, in their quests for sexual release, make “good girls” pegnant, and/or e) American society transformed into either an imitation of China during the Great Cultural Revolution or of such countries as Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Re some other comments: Marriage may have existed in nearly all societies, but it’s been a complicated and elastic phenomenon. Polygamy, the wife-as-property, concubines, and it’s having been for most of history in most places for most people simple cohabitation, are major parts of the story. Middle-class marriage, with a certificate, ceremony, presiding clergy, etc., is a relatively small part of the picture.
trendisnotdestiny - December 9, 2010 at 9:13 am
On another note, I would like to see the numbers or percentages on failed owner-yacht relationships (trade ins, sales, wreckage, foreclosure etc)….
t_paine - December 9, 2010 at 1:48 pm
“make “good girls” pegnant” What the heck is that? Why would anyone do that to good girls?
“Please police the comments for poor grammar from the tinfoil-hat crowd.
If you can read, you can spell. If you can’t, you can’t.”
The second quote is from an older communications prof, who probably meant it to be nicer than it sounds, and who probably meant to continue; If you can read and spell, it does not follow that you can think.
goxewu - December 9, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Some words I don’t spell correctly, and don’t realize it. Some words I have a hunch I might be spelling incorrectly, but am in too much of a hurry to use spell-check or a dictionary. And some misspellings, such as “pegnant” are obviously typos. But a) I don’t misspell so egregiously that the points of my comments fail to come across, b) what I post on these threads aren’t article manuscripts for peer-reviewed journals; they’re not even paid content as are the OPs, and c) typo gotchas are–consensus on all “Brainstorm” threads almost since the site’s inception–held to be the lowest, most petty form of criticism. (But since t_paine effectively says in closing that even if I spelled absolutely correctly, he wouldn’t think that I can think, his raising of the spelling issue is gratuitous, just like typo gotchas.)
The most conspicuous “tinfoil-hat crowd” I see these days are wearing tricorns.
And now, back to the substance of the OP and the other comments…
rbannist - December 12, 2010 at 3:06 am
goxewu.
Back at you on this one, I go crazy when I misspell words or make a clumsy typo, but this is not the kind of writing that works well on a Word Processor when you’re typing as you’re thinking.
I see a problem with getting too relativist about the importance of marriage. While some societies might have social structures far different from ours, the nuclear family with two parents in the fundemental unit of ours.
I am really impressed with what a sensible conversation is going on here on sex, a subject our puritanical society simply loves to overlook. I’m not sure “recreational” is the right term I was using or if “casual” says it better. You’d have to be wired very differently than most modern humans to limit sexual relations to simply procreation. Would the right term be “responsible?”
Well, anyone who honestly remembers what it was like to be 14-19 years old, has had kids that age, or worked with them, “responsibility” can be a very elusive topic when a young person is feeling his or her oats, feels intelligent and knows enough about all things, and peer presure is so powerful. It makes me think of a Mark Twain quote I’m about to butcher. “When I was twenty years old, my old man was the dumbest man on earth. When I was twenty one, I found him to be one of the most intelligent. So how did he learn so much in the last year?”
When we look at modern America and how well off almost everyone is (I’m sure not going to cry about people who can’t afford 50″ LCD TV’s and Florida vacations) — that we are so insensitive to what’s going on often just blocks from where we live in urban society where schools are total failures and kids’ futures are largely determined by a map or zip code — all the denial, racism, lack of resolve, ineffective social programs, and collective failure to say enough is enough — it’s got to be enough to make any sane person weep or scream in anger. While there certainly are societal reasons for these unhappy conditions, the destruction of meaningful family units is a huge part of it. We can get into so many chicken or the egg debates on these subjects, but we have people in our communities who are hurting and falling behind quite capable of being productive citizens in pursuit of happiness. Promoting the value of marriage is one element that should help.
goxewu - December 12, 2010 at 11:46 am
Rbannist’s comment is reasonable and thoughtful. Marriage–in the sense of a couple (same-sex, opposite-sexes, makes no difference to me) legally bound in the raising of children–is generally a good idea. And monogamy–the remains of “The Playboy Philosophy,” “dude”culture, and the alleged empowerment of the female version of dude culture notwithstanding–isn’t all that bad for the right people. (I’m one of them: married for a long time and quite happy with it.)
But the institution has lots and lots of problems. The first is divorce. We well know the consequences of making divorce difficult or disgraceful; those consequences are even worse in a highly urban and mobile, industrial and postindustrial society. On the other hand, making divorce as simple as returning a purchased item to a department store renders it fairly meaningless. Then there’s the religious aspect, which gets us all kinds of baggage as to who can or cannot be married. (Not to mention the intrusion of clergy into legal matters, but I concede that’s a minor problem that grates only on nonbelievers such as I.) And finally, on this abbreviated list, is the huge improbability of, say, a 26-year-old male actually having sex with only one woman for the remainder of his sexually active life, likely about 45 years. (I hear tell that fidelity is less and less likely for women, too.) <> “an understanding,” or an “open marriage” work a lot better in theory than in practice.
“Promoting the value of marriage”? How? The carrot (removing the tax code’s “marriage penalty,” Government-enforced maternity and paternity leave as in some of those awful “socialist” European countries, a public-service ad campaign, more TV shows like “Bridezillas,” de facto acceptability of the Victorian practice of husbands having mistresses or going to prostitutes on the side)? Or the stick (reviving the stigma of “shacking up” and “living in sin,” reviving the disgrace of being an “unwed mother” and having “illegitimate” children, reviving anti-fornication laws)?
The paradox is, of course, that in concrete fact marriage is more popular among well-heeled preppy liberals who might get married in the midtown Episcopal church, the one with the female minister, than it is among struggle working-class couples who might be joined by a Baptist preacher in a “family values” red state.
If a way could be found to make the reproductive act just slightly painful, or if people could be default infertile until they passed a couple of tests, as for a driver’s license, the incidence of defenseless children being raised in bad circumstances might be reduced. But neither of those things is likely to happen.
pocvecem - December 12, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Since the discussion didn’t die, I’d like to go back to something goxewu said earlier:
“Certainly, single moms can give up their newborns for adoption. But not a lot want to. Biology, bonding, etc., stuff that predates most American social conventions. (I suppose if there were no public assistance and the choice were between the baby actually starving or freezing and giving it up for adoption, we could kick up the supply a little to reduce the wait. Or maybe even have the authorities confiscate the babies for adoption, with poor single motherhood in itself constituting de facto “abuse.”) In short, adoption may be a solution for individual cases, but it can’t be made widespread enough to really put a dent in the problem rbannist abhors.”
If I may paraphrase, s/he is arguing that adoption would not be an acceptable alternative solution if abortion were no longer legal because many of the women would want their babies. That may be the best non-biological justification for ending abortion I’ve ever seen. The paraphrase is slightly off (but that’s because I don’t see anyone arguing that poor single motherhood is inherently “de facto abuse”), but my point remains the same.
Also (more recently):
“If a way could be found to make the reproductive act just slightly painful, or if people could be default infertile until they passed a couple of tests, as for a driver’s license, the incidence of defenseless children being raised in bad circumstances might be reduced. But neither of those things is likely to happen.”
Two words: STD’s, condoms
goxewu - December 12, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Re pocvecem:
Adoption is a nice thing, and it does somewhat mitigate the problem unwanted children. But even if the complications, frustrations, and long waits attendant to trying to adopt–which have mostly to do with screening and the selectivity of people wanting to adopt–were mostly eliminated, the number of adoptions would still be a small fraction of the number of unwanted children. Couples tend to want to have their own biological children and if they can’t will as often as not do without rather than adopt somebody else’s. And if abortion were outlawed, that would mean another million children per year being born, which would further outstrip the country’s ability and willingness to adopt.
Way back in rbannist’s first comment (I’m a grizzled ol’ male, BTW, so one needn’t waste the “his or hers” on me), rbannist said:
“We’ve heard the excuses, ‘I had a baby because I wanted somebody I knew would love me.’ ‘I know if I have a child I won’t be lonely.’ Some notions would be just as stupid as if someone were deciding to have a dog, a cat, or even a gold fish, but one can flush a gold fish down the toilet with no fault. There animal shelters for dogs or cats — oops, we have a lot of stray animals because people made stupid decisions and then just abandon their pets. The way some treat their children isn’t that much better and society can see the results.”
Rbannist is clearly referring to single mothers. He equates their decisions to have children (in the cases where they do decide) as being as lightly taken as deciding to get a pet, and he compares the consequences with abandoning pets. In essence, rbannist makes poor single women having kids and trying to raise them alone a kind of child abuse. I may be overstating a bit, but I think this is a fair summation. I’m giving rbannist the benefit of the doubt in thinking that the concern is not solely for the mothers’ cutting short their educations, and that rbannist has some concern for the fate of their children.
Finally, in speculating about “mak[ing] the reproductive act just slightly painful” and people default infertile, I must say there’s a big “Duh!” about pocvecem’s reply to it. STDs don’t make the reproductive act (known in scientific circles as schtuping) painful at the time of the act. And males aren’t default infertile on account of condoms, unless they wear them 24/7, adhered with Cra-Z-Glu or duct tape. (Did granddad ever explain these things to pocvecem?)
pocvecem - December 13, 2010 at 3:40 am
@ goxewu:
A part of the long waits for newborns also results from the long waiting list. Adoptive families tend to prefer newborns instead of older children who remember their birth parents.
For your first paragraph on rbannist: You surely don’t think rbannist means ALL single mothers? S/he did say “The way some treat their children…” And that paragraph you quoted makes no mention of financial resources. It’s not about poor single mothers; it’s about single mothers who decide to become pregnant for the wrong reasons. Some women like that are rather wealthy and some are not.
STD’s are about as close to “painful” as we’ll get. Even if we were to talk about pain at the time of the act, the pain would not happen before a pregnancy became possible. In contrast, the real threat of an STD comes prior to the reproductive act. And what do you have against duct tape? If you put enough on, that’s one way to make the act somewhat painful while still preventing pregnancy!
rbannist - December 13, 2010 at 3:41 am
Why can’t we accept that one should reach a certain level of maturity before it is responsible to have a child? Having thought kids unable to attend regular day school relegated to night classes which are also where the kids expelled for drugs, weapons, and other nasty behavior atteneded, and seeing how quickly the allure of motherhood was wearing off and causing real suffering, how can our cultural institutions not work tirelessly to help get kids on the right path and avoid premature parenthood?
Not mentioned is the foster care system that deals with many of these children. These systems are often spread so thin, not properly funded, poorly managed, but thank God some foster parents should be candidates for sainthood for what they do for some kids from some very difficult situations.
Even the brightest kids from the most advantaged backgrounds are still so impressionable in their mid-teens. Remove the advantages they are blessed with and the situation can be tragic.
Can we not get back to where adults express concrete expectations of children, and that there absolutely are “rights” and “wrongs” that there are some core values that if observed will lead to a much more satisfying, responsible and successful life?
We live in a world of instant gratification — if it feels good do it — consequences be damned. Social behavior has become subject to such extreme relativism and the “who are we to judge” ethos.
goxewu - December 13, 2010 at 9:15 am
* Of course rbannist didn’t refer to “ALL” single mothers, every last one of them. But it’s clear that rbannist thinks that, generally, poor single women who go ahead and have babies* are doing their children a–to put it mildly–a disfavor.
* “A part of the long waits for newborns also results from the long waiting list. Adoptive families tend to prefer newborns instead of older children who remember their birth parents.” Agreed. And that’s another reason the number of children, including post-newborns, who’d be eligible for adoption so outstrips the number of couples willing to adopt. Which is, in turn, another reason why, in terms of reducing the number of unwanted children, adoption is far from a major solution.
* My wish that the reproductive act might be rendered mildly painful was Swiftian-lite fanciful. But since pocvecem, a literalist par excellence, takes it so literally, I’ll point out that “the threat of an STD” is not a painful physical sensation present at the time of the act. It’s a fear along the lines of knowing you’ll only get fatter if you eat the plate of chocolate-chip cookies in front of you when you’re very, very hungry. If the cookies tasted like whatever vegetable you dislike most, that’d do more to prevent you from partaking than knowing what their calorie count will wreak later.
*Pocvecem’s concluding duct tape remark is, though, a rare and welcome sign of humor.
* “Can we not get back to where adults express concrete expectations of children, and that there absolutely are ‘rights’ and ‘wrongs’ that there are some core values that if observed will lead to a much more satisfying, responsible and successful life?”
Short answer: No, we can’t. a) There never were halcyon days when every family raising kids was like Ozzie & Harriet. (The fictional version, that is; in real life, the Nelson family was an opera of dysfunction.) b) Outside the penal code (and even within it), absolute rights and wrongs are difficult to cherry-pick; homosexuality, fornication, miscegenation, women’s suffrage, free black people, “illegitimate” children, women working outside the home, divorce were once considered absolute wrongs by large portions, if not all, of America. c) There’s wide disagreement about what constitutes a “satisfying, responsible, and successful life.” “Satisfying,” for instance, is to a lot of people carpez diem, while to others it’s saving for a rainy day. Rbannist’s other two categories are equally up for grabs.
Our economy, BTW, rather depends on “instant gratification.” Watching just a few television commercials for cars, beer, smartphones, etc., will absolutely confirm that. In fact, social behavior in the category of instant gratification is hardly relative in contemporary America. You practically have to be Bartleby the Scrivener to opt out of using your Visa card, with all those “rewards,” to buy stuff–about which you’re pounded with a intensity of consumer propaganda that makes North Korea’s political propaganda look like a model of restraint–that you don’t need but just want. And much of our consumer propaganda uses sex to sell. If you’re a young man who wants to be cool (and what young man doesn’t?), you’re supposed to “cue the Cuervo” in order get the babe at the end of the bar into bed later that night. (Naturally, “drink responsibly” so you don’t forget the condom.)
* About half the pregnancies in America, within marriage and outside of it, are unintended. So it’s not women “deciding” to have children. And men, of course, are at least half responsible–probably more so, because sex-on-demand at an inopportune time is initiated, and sometimes coerced, majorly by males.
rbannist - December 14, 2010 at 4:19 am
I’m certainly not advocating an “Ozzie and Harriet” world but kids will be as responsible as their parents are and their parents expect them to be. Sure, many things have changed. While there still is racism and sexism in society, the roll of women and minorities in society has changed tremendously. The birth control pill has changed a lot of sexual expectations. We’re finally beginning to accept alternative sexual preferences.
None of these argue against promoting the highest degres of responsibility nor does it make marriage any less of a desirable lifestyle for a large majority of the public.
We’ve gone through tremendous technological and social change that our ability to define morality and responsiblity has lagged behind. That doesn’t make the pursuit unworthy. It also doesn’t justify the extremist backlash of the extreme religious right with their “one size fits all” moral prescriptions for all.
I’m not sure the stats on “unintended” births are valid, but let’s say they are. A child born in a stable family unit will enjoy so many benefits a child out of wedlock would be extremely fortunate to realize.
While it might deviate from typical conservative points-of-view, I don’t see our society in as much a state of moral decline as I do a state of redefinition. As such, I will use my little voice to advocate those things I would hope would continue to be the fabric of our society in the future.
What goes on between consenting adults is largely their business but adults also must be mature enough to realize all behavior has consequences. That we allow the consumption of liquor but don’t legalize marijuana seems insanely hypocritical. Why not legalize pot. Tax it. Then go head on against the hard drug trade who’s entre into the market will be destroyed. Unfortunately, the conservative “drug free America” crowd cannot accept that marijuana is no more a gateway drug than drinking water is to alcohol abuse. Drugs being illegal puts the user in touch with those who market the nasty stuff. When kids realize they lied to them about pot, hmm, maybe smack and crack aren’t so bad are they?
Oh yes they are, but we don’t have the moral authority to define the issue because marijuana is not that nasty and who wouldn’t rather be around someone who smoked too much pot than someone who drank too much?
While we look at changes in sexual morality, in the meantime, there are strong efforts now to encourage nutrition, exercise, and wellness.
We as citizens need to define our moral standards, live by them, and serve as modest models for others. Let’s keep the government out of it as much as possible. However, the media and entertainment industry need to clean up their acts. We need more responsible journalism. We need huge improvement in how schools deal with behavior where some rather mild behaviors can get serious punishment under “Zero tolerance” while other absolutely rotten forms of conduct go unchecked. Kids have to divine the right way to act in that kind of environment?
Recognizing the virtues of marriage is one of the building blocks of a responsible American society.
goxewu - December 14, 2010 at 9:16 am
A long time ago, I was walking with a woman, holding hands maybe, through a kind of flagship gay neighborhood of a major American city. As two gay guys (a couple, in heavy leather) walked past us, one muttered, “Breeders” at us. At the time, I was more amused than offended, but over the years I began to think the fellow might have had an unintended useful point. What society clearly needs is a much greater percentage of gay people, whose sexual activities don’t carry the risk of unwanted reproduction. (As the wonderful gay advice columnist, Dan Savage, once said, “At least we don’t get drunk one night and adopt.”) When gays and lesbians have children, it’s usually via the kind of long and deliberative processs (artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, adoption) that rbannist–and I–wish were always attendant to heterosexual reproduction. As for supplying just enough children for the next generation, the remaining heterosexual population could function as duly married, squeaky-clean “breeders.” After all, in the 21st century, specialization is the name of the game.
rbannist - December 18, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Goxewu -
I think I wouldn’t know how to react if a homosexual were to call a partner and me “breeders.” I guess a part of me would love the uninhibited straight talk and irony in the comment, but furthermore, it has a creepy way of putting a lot of things into perspective. Sexual morality through the ages has been grounded so deeply in the perpetuation of the human species in the best ways conceivable at any particular point in time. Clearly, since the 1960′s, we’re going through an era of moral redefinition. We’re sorting out the keepers versus those notions that are outmoded.
While some things might be against our better judgment, those behaviors are no place for the law to step in or for society to brand someone. The traditional concept of “sinner” has become, thankfully, quite distasteful in most contexts.
We seem to have a moral commitment to help the defenseless and provide the best possibilities for the next generation (how our elected leaders are failing us in that regard loading them with trillions of debt they will pay for because of our excesses), so it it with this understanding that I defend the nuclear family as an essential building block of society and that in most circumstances, the willing decision to become a single parent is not responsible. It doesn’t make such a person, a bad person, but that person has made a choice that will have ENORMOUS consequences that are extremely difficult to realize for the well-being of the child.
I hate the business of prescribing morality aside from the absolute most obvious. Most are way too judgmental and often give the believer a false sense of superiority over others. Still, I think our schools, churches, and social institutions should defend traditional marriage as the right choice for raising children.
burger1376 - May 26, 2012 at 12:33 am
I’m not sure where the authors are in the world, but haven’t they noticed that the Chinese are on a100 day campaign to harrass foreigners living in China. How can the Chinese threaten Americans living here any more than they already are? Sorry, I have no sympathy for Chinese who are teaching at confucious institutes until the Chinese start respecting foreigners’ rights in China.