After all the scorn was piled onto Trina Thompson, the young lady who filed suit against Monroe College for failing to assist her in obtaining a job after graduation, a few significant publications weighed in on her side.
At Slate, Mark Gimein identified the serious question underlying the comedy:
“The story of Thompson’s suit isn’t a one-liner about a grad too naive to know that graduating from college doesn’t guarantee a job. It’s a story about what ‘college’ means and about marginal, for-profit ‘colleges’ that squeeze four years of fees from their students and leave them with all the debt and little of the education or prospects that they counted on.”
Precisely correct. What does “college” mean? If schools compete for applicants by promising “success,” then at what point does the promise turn into a case of false advertising? When campuses start to look more like four-year employment services instead of cloisters of higher education, we shouldn’t blame recent grads for playing along. If schools don’t want to go the career route, then they should reconsider the presentation of their mission.
Gimein’s defense of Thompson was picked up in New York magazine under the title “Why Trina Thompson Is Right to Sue Her College for Not Getting Her a Job.”
I don’t know if anybody has an update on her lawsuit, but I bet lots of colleges hope it never goes to trial.
19 Responses to No Job, Sue Your College
anon1972 - August 25, 2009 at 8:05 am
This is exactly why we have to STOP promising students “success” (or falsely implying that “success” requires college, when a good mechanic can make considerably more than a humanities professor) and go back to promising them AN EDUCATION. Let them draw their own conclusions about whether they need one or not.
jpstreet - August 25, 2009 at 9:38 am
I agree with anon1972. This is mainly an issue of personal responsibility. Education is a tool and how you use it is your responsibility, not that of the college or university. In this case the graduate seems to treat education like a medication. “Take one of these pills every day for four years and you will not have to worry about that annoying condition of unemployment.”
draekeferrell - August 25, 2009 at 10:05 am
Unfortunately, colleges and universities have put too much emphasis on “Job Preparation”. Students complain about having to take Liberal Studies courses because they don’t directly relate to their major. When I was in college, I didn’t declare my major until my Junior year so taking courses that helped explain the world and society made perfect sense. Although I knew I would never be a philosopher, my philosophy course was fascinating as was psychology, microbiology, and sociology. I wanted an education. When I decided on my major in special education, I hoped to find a job as a teacher but I did not expect that my degree came with any guarantees. We now require students to declare their majors when entering as freshmen. Rather than see that all the humanities change one as a person – open our minds to different ways of thinking – students enter with the goal of a job and not an education. As a professor, it saddens me to have students view the university experience as job preparation and not an increase in knowledge and new ways of thinking about life.
draekeferrell - August 25, 2009 at 10:05 am
Unfortunately, colleges and universities have put too much emphasis on “Job Preparation”. Students complain about having to take Liberal Studies courses because they don’t directly relate to their major. When I was in college, I didn’t declare my major until my Junior year so taking courses that helped explain the world and society made perfect sense. Although I knew I would never be a philosopher, my philosophy course was fascinating as was psychology, microbiology, and sociology. I wanted an education. When I decided on my major in special education, I hoped to find a job as a teacher but I did not expect that my degree came with any guarantees. We now require students to declare their majors when entering as freshmen. Rather than see that all the humanities change one as a person – open our minds to different ways of thinking – students enter with the goal of a job and not an education. As a professor, it saddens me to have students view the university experience as job preparation and not an increase in knowledge and new ways of thinking about life.
texasmusic - August 25, 2009 at 10:31 am
Did any of you commenters actually read the Slate article? Monroe “College” isn’t really like traditional colleges and universities. It’s a for-profit business institute with a recent name change meant to disguise that fact for the purpose of respectability. Aside from that, it doesn’t look to me like the purpose of attending Monroe College is so much to “get an education” as it is to “get a job.” Had Ms. Thompson attended a traditional school, I would jump on the personal responsibility bandwagon with everyone else. But I think in this particular case, she really does have a point. If indeed they are advertising themselves as a job factory to their students, as I suspect they do, when students don’t get jobs after graduation, I think that can be classified as a form of false advertising and a good lawyer, assuming she can find one to help her, should be able to show this in court. On her own, I don’t think she stands a chance of winning this battle.
dank48 - August 25, 2009 at 11:05 am
I’d like to formally withdraw and apologize for my own earlier comment about Ms. Thompson. I misunderstood the situation, thinking that she had formed unrealistic ideas about her employability after studying at a legitimate institution of higher learning. Now I realize I was blaming the victim.
bekka_alice - August 25, 2009 at 11:50 am
Texasmusic’s note is of value for more than the current incident. If institutions of a completely different nature take the term “College” as their mantle of respectability, it’s going to have a long-term impact on the public perception of all institutions of higher learning, as the public does not have a general understanding of how to tell the difference between the two. If a court does rule that the business institute in this case owed the student greater assistance in finding a job, that does still impact the public (and may potentially impact the legal) line on what obligations a traditional institution of higher learning has toward a student.
drj50 - August 25, 2009 at 11:56 am
The Slate misuses information to condemn the school. (I have no first-hand knowledge of the school and no ties for for-profit higher education.) Yes, it is for-profit. That does not prove that its education is inferior (any more than non-profit status proves quality).Yes, its loan default rate is high, but it attracts primarily lower-income black (42%) and Hispanic (51%) students. (Source: federal data at College Navigator at nces.ed.gov). Its persistence and graduation rates are actually quite strong. (Some will object that “they’re just passing students through.” Maybe. But I would need to see evidence before agreeing.)The school has for 20 years been accredited by Middle States and the New York Board of Regents. Neither is perfect, but I know enough about their processes that I’d take their word for Monroe College before I would take that of a columnist who uses data carelessly.
edadmin - August 25, 2009 at 1:20 pm
It’s shocking that the Chronicle would repeat such irresponsible writing. Gimien’s article makes absurd judgments from afar. Did he talk to other graduates from Monroe? Did he visit the school? Does he know if Trina Thompson’s claims are valid? Or is he basing his entire analysis on her individual dissatisfaction (which will never stand up in court) and a cursory reading of the college’s web site?Further, does he know if Monroe College has legions of students and graduates who have received a proper education and have had their lives and careers significantly improved as a result? This is a classic hatchet job by a writer who is reaching for a story he does not have the information to deliver.I work in administration at a different college and we view irresponsible tabloid journalists like Gimien as a real threat to young people’s opportunity to advance. He’s a fear-monger of the highest order.Contrary to what the un-informed Gimien would like to pretend, the movement in education today is in career-oriented training. This is evident at the high school level across the country and in NY City where the Mayor just allocated millions to improve career training in public colleges, ironically to follow Monroe’s lead. Gimien complains that Monroe doesn’t have majors in traditional academic subjects. If we followed his model for higher education, the unemployment rate would soar. At least schools like Monroe are giving people a chance at establishing careers and leading productive lives.
greenroof - August 25, 2009 at 1:54 pm
“At least schools like Monroe are giving people a chance at establishing careers and leading productive lives.”Really?!I thought the whole point of the lawsuit was specifically because the school did not help Trina Thompson establish a career and lead a productive life.I’ve taught at “for profit” and traditional brick-and-mortar schools. I cannot say for sure what type of place Monroe is, but in my experience there is a big, big difference between the two types of institutions – both in what they provide and how they advertise themselves to students.
edadmin - August 25, 2009 at 4:50 pm
to greenroof: The college’s statements in the NY Post and other media are that the suit has no merit. So while maybe Ms. Thompson is alleging that the school did not help her “estbalish a career and lead a productive life”, you would be making quite an assumption in concluding that her contentions are correct.In fact, I went to the Monroe College web site and found that the resources they provide for career advancement are some of the most comprehensive that I’ve seen at any college or university of any size, including the instituion I work for. So before anyone gives the litigant any credibility, let’s get more information, something that the author of the piece ddecided he didn’t want to do.
commserver - August 25, 2009 at 5:46 pm
When I graduated from HS in 1968, it was the beginning of the period when colleges were getting applications from males looking for draft deferments.Through the years it seems that the bar has bee gradually raised. Where a HS diploma was the key to getting a job it seems that today having a college degree is the key.False hopes lead to false expectations. This is what this story is about.
greenroof - August 25, 2009 at 6:49 pm
To edadmin: I would give Monroe’s attempts to get Ms.Thompson a job about as much creedence as you give to Mr. Gimein’s article – that is, lacking any evidence to the contrary, and knowing what I do about for-profit “colleges” (including Monroe, which I spent some time this afternoon googling and browsing), I sincerely doubt they have the credentials to offer anyone a substancial chance at real, solvent employment, much less an education. I, for one, think there should be legislation against for-profit institutions using the title “college” or “university” – it seems to dupe people (like Ms. Thompson) into believing they are getting a bonafide higher ed degree. Kind of like chiropractors calling themselves “doctors.” (sure, sure…someone accredited them – a beaureocratic rubber stamp which should also be examined)At the same time I doubt that there is any merit to Ms. Thompson’s case whatsoever and suspect it will be thrown out (or, more likely, settled out of court) – if she didn’t understand that “education” is just that, not a guaranteed lottery ticket, she probably should by now. I just found your wording under the circumstances ironic.And I do, quiet frankly, find the style of your defense of Monroe interesting…are you sure you don’t work for them?
goxewu - August 25, 2009 at 8:16 pm
“I went to the Monroe College web site and found that the resources they provide for career advancement are some of the most comprehensive that I’ve seen at any college or university of any size, including the instituion I work for.”edadmin can tell all that (especially the “some of the most comprehensive” part) from simply going to Monroe College’s website? Something’s fishy with edadmin’s…what to call it?…blurb. Greenroof might be on to something.
edadmin - August 26, 2009 at 12:12 am
First of all, I don’t work for Monroe and I made that clear. Second, in trying to come to some determination of the validity of the case I’ve looked at a number of college web sites and the kinds of job development information and resources that are available to students and I have not seen any that are comparable. Have you? If so, I’d be curious to know which.As you suggest, a circumstantial judgment on this case? Maybe. But I’m more concerned about the prejudgments that the author of the piece and some bloggers have made about this college and the danger, if allowed to stand, that this presents for many colleges, like my own, that is genuinely concerned about the welfare and the future of its students.
edadmin - August 26, 2009 at 1:22 am
I should clarify that I visited web sites of colleges of similar size for a reasonable comparison.
bdodgers - August 26, 2009 at 7:09 am
Recent postings assert that Monroe College is an institution of a completely different nature compared to “traditional colleges.” On the basis of that canard writers find reason upon which to cast dispersion on the institution attributing to it a host of suspected abuses.As a member of the faculty at Monroe, I am proud of our outcomes, the credentials and commitment of my colleagues, and what we do for students, many of whom are the first in their families to attain a college degree. A Middle States evaluation team report cited Monroe as “beacon of hope for people in the Bronx and New Rochelle.” Our support services have been praised in reports by Middle States and New York State Education Department evaluators. Employers call upon the college to fill repeat job requests because they have found our graduates to have the competencies they require.Monroe’s corporate structure or mission should not be at issue. Are community colleges with missions tied to providing skilled employees not considered colleges?Responsible journalists and bloggers have an obligation to learn the facts before they publish opinions. In the marketplace of ideas the truth always prevails. Once all the facts are considered, I am confident Monroe College will be treated with the respect it deserves.Donald E. Simon, Ph.D.English and Social Science DepartmentCollege Honors Program
drdesonia - August 26, 2009 at 9:02 am
My former not-for-profit institution has a great website — they pay a dedicated staff and outside marketing firm to create it. None of the individuals in any of the advertisements are actual students or graduates of the institution.They also decorate the building for the holidays and display famous works of art in the hall. Their advertised “placement” rates are outstanding (if you don’t know that most of the students that come to the institution already have jobs and most don’t advance or get new jobs “in field”). Their loan default rates have been reviewed heavily by the Feds and their graduation and retention rates are abysmal.They have a dedicated staff of trained Admissions Advisors (read sales automatons). They are great at making people believe that they can get into the highly selective programs (i.e., Nursing) when they come in with remedial deficits in reading, writing, and mathematics and a GPA of 1.7 or pass an Ability-to-Benefit test).Again, all boils down to pursuit of education or job training — both admirable — and personal responsibility for destiny on the part of the individual seeking either.
goxewu - August 26, 2009 at 9:49 am
Does edadmin work for a for-profit or a non-profit college? The answer would be instructive.”Contrary to what the un-informed Gimien would like to pretend, the movement in education today is in career-oriented training.”Yep. Whatever happened to all those TV ads for “The National School of [whatever]” and its surefire “career” training to be a TV repairman?