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Portrait of the Artists as a Scrappy, Fulfilled Demographic

March 16, 2011, 4:42 pm

Graphic courtesy of SNAAP

By Carolyn Mooney

The struggling artist lives on, but has built a satisfying career in some unexpected ways. He or she is far more likely to be self-employed, juggling several jobs at a time, or teaching in an arts field than wasting away in a garret.

That’s part of the snapshot that has developed so far from an ongoing national survey of arts alumni designed to provide data on the development of artists.

A majority of art-school graduates continue to work as professional artists, early data from the Strategic National Arts Alumni Project (Snaap) show. And while those who stopped working as artists often did so because other fields offered better income and opportunities, they reported that their art-school skills—creativity, critical thinking, and teamwork—carried over to other careers such as law, health, and business. Many former artists remained active in their communities, and were far more likely to support the arts by donating time and money than were non-artists.

“I think the story is, you don’t have a bunch of bitter graduates who wish they hadn’t gone to art school,” says Steven J. Tepper, associate director of Vanderbilt University’s Curb Center for Art, Enterprise, and Public Policy. “You’ve got people who are working in their chosen profession.”

The online project is run by the Indiana University Center for Postsecondary Research in collaboration with the Curb Center. It’s modeled after the National Survey of Student Engagement, which collects data on student involvement in academics and is also administered by the Indiana center. Since 2008, when the project began three years of field testing, 20,000 arts alumni at some 250 institutions have taken part in the survey. About 10 percent are secondary arts schools; the rest include art institutes, conservatories, and arts-related departments at colleges.

Tepper believes the data will help arts educators make the case that the arts add value, especially at a time when the creative economy is on the rise. “We need to know what our arts graduates are doing,” he says. “As tuition rises and accreditors become more demanding, that’s an important question.”

The survey data so far have also pointed out some shortcomings in arts education. A large majority of artists reported being self-employed at some point in their career, something their training did not prepare them for. And a substantial number also hold jobs outside of the arts.

“We want faculties to be debating what skills artists need to become entrepreneurs,” Tepper says. “In fact, artists are classic entrepreneurs.”

Findings from the 2010 survey will be available later this spring, and are expected to provide the most comprehensive national picture yet of art graduates’ career paths. Some 150 institutions representing 250 arts programs took part in that survey. In the meantime, here are some findings from the 2009 survey, based on a smaller data sample from 54 institutions:

  • Some 59 percent of alumni were currently working as professional artists; 17 percent had done so in the past; and one-fourth never had.
  • More than one-third of current professional artists simultaneously held jobs in three or more types of occupations.
  • Salaries varied widely by field. Those employed in architecture, arts education, and design reported median income of $50,000, compared with $35,000 for those working in theater, arts administration, and dance.
  • Just over half of all alumni had taught or were currently teaching in the arts.
  • Some 80 percent had been self-employed at some point.
  • Of those who are no longer professional artists, the top reasons for switching fields were: steadier income (53 percent); better opportunities (41 percent); and debt, including student loans (27 percent).
  • More than 80 percent of undergraduate and graduate alumni reported finding a job within a year of graduating. Some 68 percent of undergrad alumni and 76 percent of graduate alumni said it was a very good or pretty good career match.

For more details from the 2009 survey, including interactive graphics showing how much artists earn and where they live, visit http://www.snaapshot.org/ Institutions interested in taking part in the first national administration of the survey in 2011 should visit the project’s Web site at http://www.snaap.indiana.edu/.

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  • http://www.advancedwebads.com/sc/164 Randy Addison

    My brother is an online artist and is really happy being at home, being self-employed and is really satisfied with what he is doing. He earns and learns a lot with this Macbook everyday.

  • sherbygirl

    I think more “arts”, as opposed to “fine arts,” grads need to start adopting the mentality described here. These are skills (and a mentality) that I wished my BA had instilled in me.

  • richardtaborgreene

    The survey data referred to above presents what is to me, personally, a dismal unnecessary picture–it defines a ghetto of poverty the professions of art and design are stuck in.

    A clear majority of the 150 world leading designers (in 63 diverse fields of design) whom my staff interviewed at the Excellence Science Research Project of the U of Chicago, stated that up to a mean age of 44 they could seldom if ever afford the types of designs/products/exhibits they themselves built and released into the world. They enjoyed releasing works valued at high prices but did not really enjoy themselves never having enough resources to buy works like the ones they themselves made. “I walk through galleries, shows, exhibitions, seminars, competitions in Manhattan unable to buy the vast majority of stuff there—at 30 this did not really bother me but at 40 it is beginning to really make me angry”. A majority (different one) of this same sample of designers felt good about all the stuff cited in the article above–lasting power, vision, clarity, reality, and creativity their art training provided to many dimensions of their lives.

    The conclusion we drew via categorization and analysis was this:

    1) artists are educated in a ghetto of anti-resource-ness and/or beyond-resource-ness
    2) artists are hired and paid in a ghetto of —you CHOSE a profession of under-payment (the same creativity in law or medicine gets you $300,000 a year!!!!)
    3) artists are trained and hired to watch physicians and MBAs and lawyers sit “on top of the world looking down on creation”
    4) artists study art way way way too much
    5) the best designers have huge diverse libraries and read vastly more than average designers
    6) the “breakthrough” in designer careers into “the big time” (by fame, fortune, or acclaim of the few they respect the most) comes usually from encounter with a senior designer figure of amazing accomplishment who invites them OUT of the ghetto art education put them in

    We also found:
    1) the average designer in our dataset had, in 4 years of art education, gone through 320 professor judged design competitions with other students, with winners announced and reasons provided why runners up ran up—no other profession is a toughened by competition and public evaluation during undergraduate training
    2) the average designer runs rings about the average MBA in terms of competitiveness skills, habits, attitudes, and experience
    3) the professions of design and art are incompetently led and administered nearly everywhere except a few global urban cosmopolises–due to the baleful influence of super rich “sponsors” who keep the profession down
    4) the web just may create global widespread regional displays and markets that liberate designers from patronizing sponsorship
    5) nearly EVERY team in EVERY profession can be directly measured to have very significantly improved if and to the degree artists and designers play leadership roles on those teams—the production and sales of nearly everything in our world is improved by including these people as leaders of teams.

    If I were hiring a board of directors of General Motors (I know whereof I speak having worked there) I would be sure to appoint designers/artists as a quarter of all board positions, and favor them for leadership of various board committees—designers/artists are drenched with love of product, the future, amazing markets, and extricating everyone from boring normalcy—something General Motors nearly died from lack of.

    The most intellectually and emotionally profound factor under all this MAY be somehow how artists and designers are trained to handle and look at and determine VALUE. A lawyer, physican, or MBA is trained to fight for his profession and his value, and WIN those fights. A clear toughness is instilled and then tightly supported by socialization rites and rituals. Thou art NOW a physician—and you find you have joined a powerful fraternity. The accumulations in medicine belong to doctors, in law to lawyers and judges, in business to MBAs now CEOs or founders or to technology founders. In design??? To rich sponsors and gallery owners. The designers and artists lose the accumulations that turn imagination into POWER. I have NO confidence in what I just wrote but I would like to read research in that direction or someday do some myself.

  • gsudduth

    Great commentary. I went from an apprenticeship in Rome to an administrator to an adjunct instructor, to a for profit instructor, chair, administrator, continuing to exhibit, albeit generally having to pay some fee, to the stereotype, riffed, trying to find work, and struggling as I continue to paint.
    I remember when I had medical insurance asking my Doctor to come to one of my openings. He said what kind of work do you do? I said contemporary. He said, what? As he walked out of the cubicle and I waited for a shot from an assistant.
    Maybe we do look at and study too much art, but, I would have thought that a medical physician would at least be aware of the history of art. How is that possible? Wasn’t it once called the ‘art’ of medicine?’

  • otiscollege

    You all might be interested in the Otis Creative Economy Report that discusses these same issues specifically within the Los Angeles region: http://www.otis.edu/creative_economy/

  • larsenjeanne

    How about having better (fuller, richer, deeper) lives? Seems worth remembering, however out of fashion it may be to mention it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7MHPIFOJRACNS3RBRTZOKTBUMU DavidT

    “what’s up with that “Dr. Dr.” thing? Call me German. We’re on the Net. ”

    Ah, that was that pesky two doctorates thing you injected into the discussion; I’ll refer to you as Dr. Dr. Dziebel, however I may address you.

  • kathden

    I’m a little late to the game, but I don’t think uiipbir is wrong, peterwwood. In my experience your postings on various topics often serve as the pretext for another message you’re more interested in conveying.

  • lizziec

    I was going to yawn and pass this one by, having spent too much of my energies on past articles and responses, but in reviewing the posts of “studentperspective” and seeing a kindred spirit, I can sit at the sidelines no more.

    Anyone who understands what higher education is really supposed to be (i.e. they have been brought up through a rigorous, traditional model themselves) who spends any time teaching in SOME of these flim-flams as someone here so appropriately noted them, knows that the graduation rates SHOULD be low.

    Why should they be low? (I’m glad you asked).

    They should be low because by and large, these institutions’ testing for whether or not you can make it in college consists of filling out financial aid forms: federal Pell grant and student loan applications. Once those are approved, voila!, they’re in! Never mind whether they can read or write. Never mind if they have a learning disability. Never mind if they aren’t really interested in WORKING for that piece of paper – these places don’t care. They only care about the money. As for “serving people whom the traditionals overlook”. Hogwash! If state universities admitted people who cannot read or write their graduation rates would be in the toilet, too but they do not. They at LEAST require students to prove some ability to be successful, which is either elitist, or merciful depending on your perspective. Considering the rising cost of tuition everywhere, I’ll note this as merciful for the time being.

    Now, “studentperspective”, what you will soon see is a chorus of defenders of these for-profits come out and attack, but their fervor tells me that this is more about their investment portfolios than any sense of right or wrong – OR, they are “academics” whose sum total of experience is with the for-profit sector (enough said).

    For the most part, I have no problem with graduate for-profit organizations being in business. If you have earned a bachelor’s degree from some reputable institution and Bird-U better fits your schedule, then buyer beware. I do, however take major issue with the schools that are targeting poor, first-time college-attenders who are not prepared for high-school level work, let alone college, and saddling them with 10s of thousands of dollars in student loan debt and promising them something that is never going to come to fruition. This is at the heart of why Senator Harkin and his panel MUST continue to ask questions. We are not the great country that we pretend to be if it becomes “OK” to worship at the throne of the mighty shareholder at the expense of people who have no defenses against such practices.

    Shame on anyone who would defend dangling the promise of a better life, of the “American Dream”, to people who are very likely NOT to succeed, but who will live with the scars of failure, and the debt for the rest of their lives. Shame, shame, shame.

  • lizziec

    The marketing dollars at the for-profits cannot be matched at the state-supported schools by any stretch of the imagination. The money being generated at these places goes to 2 places, primarily: shareholder pockets and marketing for more students. Watch late-night TV sometime (“Wanna go to college in your pajamas?”) Trust me when I tell you that is not being marketed to the decent-SAT-scoring suburban high school kid. These are also prevalent on certain TV stations during the day. Next time you are home sick, peruse some of the channels that reach out to the lower ends of the intellectual spectrum.

  • lizziec

    You show your ignorance of the role of the community college. Many, MANY students go to community colleges with no intention of “graduating”. The fallacy is not so much in the graduation rates as it is in the data collection. Secondly, as institutions who take everyone (open access) who applies, there are going to be people who are admitted who can’t read, write and are not college-level material. Community colleges place these students in courses meant to elevate their skills BEFORE they are thrown into college programs. The attrition rate from these classes is atrocious, but very often you are dealing with significant deficits and personal habits that the best planned programming cannot overcome. Students too often want the degree and the better-paying job without having to attend class, read a book (if they even are able to), or put forth any effort. No one can help these people except themselves.

    Lastly, the student who attends the local CC and does not graduate will not be in debt that will ruin them for the rest of their natural lives. Many, if not most, of the poorest students attending community colleges will have their tuition/fees covered entirely by federal and state grants. This may be an issue for the local funding authorities, but it is most certainly not the same issue as we are seeing with the for-profits, where students can either drop out, or “graduate” with a dearth of skills and knowledge and more than $20,000 in student loan debt while being fully prepared to work at the local fast-food joint for minimum wage (just as they were PRE-college)

  • wswail

    While 9 percent is not an achievement we want to applaud, let’s be clear: there are many two-year public institutions with that same statistic. Let’s be a bit fair here: if we are going to call a kettle black, then let’s look at all institutions, regardless of type and sector, with the same watchful eye.

  • nugatory

    I find myself in agreement with some of your points.

    I find arrogant and distasteful your attitude that those on your side of this “for-profit” issue are motivated by the highest of principles while those who disagree with you do so in defense of their pocketbook. In addition to being morally wrong, your intellectual smugness is unfounded by anything you expressed or how well you expressed it.

  • lizziec

    That I am smug (or not) has no bearing on the issues I have raised

  • lizziec

    Perhaps you could propose a rationale for those institutions who place largely unprepared people into lifetimes of debt in exchange for a worthless piece of paper. I struggle to see what, other than profit, given the millions at stake, could be the motivating factor here.

    Care to enlighten us?

    and p.s. being smug is not a moral issue

  • betterschool

    I nominate this article for the least intelligent and least well informed thus far in 2011.

    Setting aside all of the uninformed drivel about different charters — far too much at too low a level to address — I’ll make one irrefutable point with respect to this article’s central claim: for-profits don’t care whether students graduate.

    - The marketing, lead generation, enrollment, and pre-matricuation services costs included by *any* school are accounted by administrators as “learner acquisition costs” (LAC). Let’s say that LAC averages $2,500 per student for the average school (this probably represents a decent guess if aggregating all types of programs, institutions, etc.)

    - Let’s further stipulate that the difference between total revenue and operations costs for the average course is $500 per student (again, this is probably a decent guess at an average figure; there will be wide variations depending on the type of course; labs are higher, lectures are lower, etc.)

    - It follows, therefore, that a student must attend and complete, in this example, five courses before the institution (again, any type) crosses the “break even” line from negative to positive margin. Subsequent courses completed by the student then represent positive margin (referred to as: surplus revenue, profit, etc. depending on your charter, but the same dollars arrived at by the same logic).

    - For a for-profit institution, it follows, therefore, that the greatest profit is represented by graduating (i.e., taking the last course, paying graduation fees, etc.). Surplus revenue from the “last course” represents the largest incremental contribution to profit and therefore the most sought after contribution. This same 050 accounting logic applies to non-profits except that a euphemistic term is substituted for the term, “profit.”

    The appalling fact is that I had to post this to inform Mr. Donoghue and others who might be influenced by him, as to his profound ignorance. This is not a matter of holding different opinions, this is junk yard ignorance.

    CHE . . . are you listening? You need to impose some kinds of minimal proficiency test on people who write articles here. In this case, passing the math section of a GED would have prevented this drivel.

    I believe the for-profit/non-profit discussion is worthwhile and is making all institutions more aware of their strengths and weaknesses. I can even see that the for-profit bashing is hastening the development of federal transparency requirements that will apply to all institutions of higher education as the only effective way to settle the acrimonious name calling we see here. However, I still believe that the person leading the discussion should be reasonably well informed on the issues, whatever stance he may take on them.

  • studentperspective

    Let’s face it nugatory, those in favor of the for-profit…I’m talking those in top management positions and investors…are making a ton of money. This is not because they built a better mousetrap but because they are exploiting the mouse. How can you talk about what is morally wrong when you foster the behavior of these institutions? LOOK AT THE NUMBERS and by that I do not mean the profits. Dig for the truth. There is nothing wrong with the profit motive as long as these profits are come by morally, legally, and ethically. I challenge you to prove that this is indeed what is happening in this sector.

    You talk of arrogance on the part of those against this sector. How can you be so callous when so many lives are being destroyed? That’s not arrogance; it’s concern, legitimate and highly warranted concern.

  • nugatory

    I didn’t take a substantive stand on these issues. I determined that the level of understanding in this article, and those posting here, is too low to make such a contribution worthwhile — makes as much sense as trying to teach calculus to Mr. Donoghue when I can see that he lacks basic logical skills (if he lacks them now, he isn’t going to get them). As for you, I’m not interested in the challenges of an immature, uninformed person. If you were intelligent and were in possession of a wide range of relevant facts informing this issue on all sides, the discussion would be worthwhile.

  • lizziec

    @ “Studentperspective” -

    Much of what you are reading is akin to “the suits” lobbying in Congress while the regular folks – those without special access – sit in the far removed gallery and hope against hope that the democratic process actually works for them.

    Keep speaking out – do not be deterred by pompous put-downs, or dismissive rebuttals. If you see what you feel is not right, speak OUT! This is the only recourse that those without access to power and money still have, and it is waning even as I type this.

    Call your local governmental representatives; take your position and any evidence that you have with you to document what you are saying. These arguments must be made on the individual level, since a multitude of sins can be covered when the sector is reviewed in aggregate.

    Speak out, speak up and don’t be deterred by those who might dismiss what you see. Be sure, though, that you are only using facts, and truths that you can show evidence of (and I don’t mean in this forum – pearls before swine, et al). Gather your data, and make your case. Talk to groups about their options for college. Tell everyone you meet what you have seen and witnessed. Keep it clean and keep it honest. There’s no need to embellish as these stories speak for themselves. Eventually, if enough people speak out, something will change.

    It’s not easy to fight against large corporate interests but I, for one, refuse to believe that it is impossible for right to triumph over the mighty dollar.

  • chuckkle

    perhaps this will explain it to German

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRtt7QYvgWE

    “Doctor, doctor, give me the news
    I’ve got a bad case of lovin’ you
    No pill’s gonna cure my ill
    I’ve got a bad case of lovin’ you”

    Robert Palmer, c. 1979

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7MHPIFOJRACNS3RBRTZOKTBUMU DavidT

    Chuck:

    Excellent! Unfortunately it may be tough to find clips of the 1989 TV series

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096566/

    but the reviews quoted on the IMDB site are spot on…

    David

  • http://twitter.com/#!/ProprietaryEd ForProfitEd

    Trace:

    I’d like to add that you have a penchant for cherry picking data. Ashford has had less time to dig a hole with massive recent YOY growth since 2005. Still the majority of its programs are failing students. Harkin did make a mistake, he chose the wrong company to study. Perhaps this is why Bridgepoint is not spearheading the Coalition for Educational Success. Ben Miller did a great job at highlighting this: http://www.educationsector.org/sites/default/files/publications/Gainful-Report_RELEASE.pdf

    Still 57 % of Bridgepoint programs will have a debt warning. EDMC will have the largest number of restricted programs overall and the second largest number of ineligible programs next to CEC. Your recent obsession, Capella isn’t faring its students very well either. The lobbying campaigns nearly equal these data in their intensity.

    Education Management Form 8-K 16-Aug-2010:
    http://biz.yahoo.com/e/100816/edmc8-k.html

    “Based on the data released by the Department, the overall principal repayment rate for the Company’s schools as of September 30, 2009 is approximately 38%. The principal repayment rate for each of the Company’s education systems on a consolidated basis is as follows: The Art Institutes – 39%; Argosy University – 38%; Brown Mackie Colleges – 22%; South University – 39%; and Western State University College of Law – 48%.”

  • http://twitter.com/#!/ProprietaryEd ForProfitEd

    lizziec,

    It is clear that you have experienced these institutions up close and personal. Good job going up against some possible authors of Kari Danner and Tiffany Derry talking points.

    Ed

  • http://twitter.com/#!/ProprietaryEd ForProfitEd

    If the student looking to transfer from a CC submitted an online inquiry in response to a ClassesUSA “Free Grants” advertisement, they will be bombarded with phone calls from reps trying to talk them into programs that are not AAMA or AMT accredited. This student would would likely end up with a mountain of debt and no CMA certification.

  • Student_Advocate2

    “Seniorprofessor”: if you have a problem with these “uninformed posts” then why are you bothering to trouble yourself with reading and responding to them? Perhaps you are getting paid for doing so?

    As for being “uninformed”, how much more informed can one be than one who has experienced the situation first hand? I’ve already done my time at a reputable non-profit university and chose to take additional classes as they were offered to me as a “benefit” for working for one of the biggest players in the for-profit industry. As you attempt to berate me for not “understanding” the GAO report, let me tell you, I understood it far better than you, as I lived it in every gory detail! Everything alleged in that report was a spot on accurate portrayal of my experience as an employee and student in that arena. These ARE my “personal facts”. That the detractors wish to split hairs over semantics has no meaning to me. Truth is truth, and I personally witnessed all that was alleged. I really don’t care if you choose to spin minute details to pretend it does not reflect the truth.

    I love how you dance around the reality that if a student or graduate of a for-profit school is left with 100K of debt and no job to show for their effort it is somehow less damaging to society (by their default due to inability to repay) than the 20 – 23K taxpayers pay to subsidize community college education.

    And finally, I save the best for last. Who are you “seniorprofessor”? Trace Urdan’s personal cheerleader? I take note of the fact that “Mr. Urdan” himself has not answered my challenging questions. You, on the other hand, call me “silly”. Well, “seniorprofessor”, let’s do some simple math. According to Signal Hill’s profile page for “Mr. Urdan”, he has been a research analyst in the for-profit sector since 1998. Hmmm…. 2011 minus 1998 equals merely 13 years. Even if one wishes to “round-up”, 20 years is a real stretch. And that is, proof positive of your propensity to distort the facts. Just where are you a “senior professor”? An online school? Aha! You prove my point on the poor quality of instruction provided by these diploma mills.

    Your arrogance is so unfounded! You pompously assume that everyone voicing their opinion on this site is beneath you in intelligence. Just because you have allegedly attained the position of “senior professor” does not mean that you have any common sense, nor does it prove that you fully understand the plight of those being taken advantage of by these heinous corporations, in which you are surely a player.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/ProprietaryEd ForProfitEd

    KtBtl711: I’m guessing he is a Program Director at a predominantly online publicly traded for-profit institution. Perhaps even a consultant to the CCA or CES. If I’m wrong on both of those assumptions, he is on their bankroll somehow.

  • Prof_truthteller

    But persons pursuing careers as electricians, plumbers, and other trades also need to *graduate* in various ways to obtain certification and/or licensure so that they can legally or effectively call themselves electricians, plumbers, etc.

  • Prof_truthteller

    Public colleges, at any level, are not answerable to stockholders. For profit colleges ARE. For profits MUST show a profit or they will lose investors. Most of the “profit” they gain is from churning admits and selling students on (federally subsidized) loans and grants. They have, inherently, no motivation to improve graduation rates or the quality of the students who do graduate. They DO have strong motivation to turn a profit.

    Improving graduation rates also depends on the student. Faculty can bust their chops in class and still lose students at varying rates. Students drop out an disappear, what are we supposed to do? Call them at home and ask what the problem is? Our college actually TRIED that, only to find most of the phone numbers were no longer valid. Then what?

    Unless or until someone can provide an effective argument as to why colleges should EVER be a for-profit venture and “run like a business” I remain unconvinced. I hear a lot of protestations about how they fulfill an important role, and fill an important niche, or provide an important opportunity, but have yet to hear any real valid justification for their existence at all. Seriously, prostitutes fill an important niche market! As entrepreneurs, providing a serivce unfilled in any other venue- meeting an important need- filling unmet demand- maybe the federal government should subisidize grants and loans for “job creation” for themselves and their pimps.

  • Prof_truthteller

    some make it impossible to transfer since their “credits” are not accepted.

  • Prof_truthteller

    Most, if not all, state-supported community colleges have no way to balance their budgets when state funding is cut, other than to cut classes. For profits can raise tuition any time. Most public colleges have varying but always complex and legallly mandated processes before they can raise tuition. A community college that could, for example, effectively enroll 10K most students, but can’t afford to hire the faculty to teach them, has no other option than to not enroll those students.

  • Prof_truthteller

    Yeah, you can also Google just about any topic and the word “degree” or “certificate” or “training” and find all kinds of bogus web sites with what looks like good information about that career but with links ONLY to for-profits and no pointers or evidence of any kind to that community college right down the street.
    http://express.elearners.com/
    http://www.top-schools-online.net/
    http://www.findtherightschool.com
    and many, many, more. Most of the “directories” and the top-earning for-profits own websites, will not actually give you any information unless and until you enter in your phone number or email address.

  • 11241998

    While I wouldn’t disagree that most for-profit colleges don’t care about graduating their students, I must strongly disagree with the blanket, stereotypical statement that “for-profit colleges don’t care about graduating their students.” Some do.

  • melissalmack

    Once again traditional educators, like Frank Donoghue, make assumptions based on traditional post-secondary performance metrics. He misses the point. The for-profit colleges do not serve traditional students. They serve adult learners, who have very different behaviors than full-time 18-22 year old college students. In fact, schools like Kaplan University do a very good job of graduating our students—better than public colleges and non-profit universities do for the same student population at significantly less taxpayer cost.

    For example, an honest, apples-to-apples comparison reveals Kaplan’s graduation rate is nearly double (32% vs. 17% for 4-year programs and 58% vs. 30% for 2-year or shorter programs) that of traditional institutions, when you hold constant students with multiple “high risk” factors as defined by the Department of Education. And because for-profit colleges are not subsidized by direct federal or state grants and our institutions pay taxes on their revenues, we can educate students at a fraction of the taxpayer cost associated with sending a student either to a community college, state university or private, non-profit institution.

    Traditional colleges do a great job in educating their students. So do we. False comparisons based on metrics that were never intended to measure adult learner outcomes, do a disservice to the real conversation we should all be having: How to improve the number of Americans who gain at least some post-secondary education and accelerate the percentage who earn degrees.

    Melissa Mack, SVP Communications, Kaplan Inc.

  • studentperspective

    Trace,

    Let’s look at some other figures. Keep in mind that the for-profit sector’s focus is primarily on undergraduate education but the sector is branching out. Look at the Stats/Reviews figures for one in particular at http://tampastudents.net. Note the figures for doctoral students in this school’s PsyD (doctor of psychology) program. Look at the cohort entrance numbers and compare those to the Internship numbers. Internships happen at the end of the students’ course of study. Ask yourself…and them…why are there so few applying for internships (a mandatory component of the program)? What happened to the rest of the students? What about these completion rates. Note that a graduate education of this kind is to the tune of $100,000+. Do you find this acceptable? I don’t.

  • sthen

    I believe, that no matter the education, what the student does with it will make them successful.

    You can lead a student to class, but you cannot make them think.

    I have had students I pegged as failures surprise me – and then go on to amazing jobs – FOR THEM. Considering some of these students come from a family where there has never been a formal higher education, when they graduate, it is an amazing event for them. The few that go further still, and walk back through our doors wearing a three-piece suit…WE didn’t do that…THEY did.

  • sthen

    You’re assuming that for-profits have no liability on their default rates? How silly of you. We have a percentage of loans that cannot go to default, or we lose our accreditation. I would think you know thes.

  • Student_Advocate2

    You’re the one doing the assuming, silly. I know full well about the liability on the default rates and all the creative techniques being used to hide the true numbers to avoid that liability. But quite honestly, I don’t really care about your liability, you deserve to own that, I’m more concerned about the students and graduates’ liability for a monumental debt with no real value attached to it.

  • Student_Advocate2

    Kudos to you for sticking to your guns and not allowing the Dean to pressure you into passing a student who did not deserve to pass! I admire you for doing so! I’ve seen that type of policy enforced regularly at the schools where I worked. That does not help the student in any way. In my time and experience I met a few instructors such as yourself who really do care about their job and their students, and honestly do provide beneficial instruction to the students in their classes. But unfortunately, you are the exception and not the rule. If only these schools would identify instructors like yourself and compensate them on their quality of work, and strive to fill the ranks with teachers such as yourself, these schools could provide a true service. But more often than not, the instructors I crossed paths with (particularly within the online arena) were barely “mailing it in”…no real instruction was provided, communication was abysmal, they were not much more that “hall monitors” who checked attendance and graded papers, oftentimes with no feedback and with inflated grades the student did not deserve.

    The disparity in pay between the Administration and those teachers who actually deliver the product is sickening, and a telling sign of where their true interest lies.

  • studentperspective

    Liabitlity in default rates? Let’s take a closer look at that. Students have a grace period after leaving the school (either through graduation or whatever other reason). Follow this with the not-so-difficult to receive forbearance which can take them up to the 2-year point at which default rates are calculated for accreditation purposes. Now that there is a push to move this to 3 years for a more accurate picture, it has become amazingly easy to for students to extend forbearance to bring them past the 3-year point. Schools are very careful at covering their tracks.

  • studentperspective

    There are some for-profits that serve traditional students. Look at the graduate programs. It would be nice to hear some input on these programs. I have plenty to say on that topic but am interested in hearing from others.

  • angela44654

    As an adult learner at a for profit university I feel the need to comment. While it’s true that for profit universities are generally geared toward educating adult learners and they behave differently than the traditional college student, there needs to be a level of competency that’s expected of any college student.

    The university (and I cringe to even call it that) that I go to is not Kaplan. Maybe Kaplan is different. However, the one I go to is touted as the best of the best in for profits. And if this is the best then I hate to see what the worst looks like!

    While classes need to be geared toward adult learners and their particular quirks, the standard should still be the same. Every class I’ve taken since I started at this school I could have passed prior to starting high school. I can’t wait to get out and I’ll be doing so at the end of this quarter.

    So please, don’t use educating adult learners as an excuse, we’re capable of the same (or more) amount and difficulty of work as the average 18 year old freshman.

  • studentperspective

    To lizziec in response to the following:

    “Excellent points, all around. It is difficult to have these debates when there are numerous iterations of for-profits. I am guilty of saying “for-profits” when I should be more explicitly stating “online, for-profits owned by publicly-traded corporations”, which is where my ire is directed.”

    I agree with part of this…’.for-profits owned by publicly-traded corporations’…but there are those ground-based varieties that leave much to be desired as well. My family’s story centers around one of these.

    Speaking of publicly-traded, I would like to point out to those singing the praises of these so-called schools, these ‘saviours of society providing access to the masses’. If they truly cared and believed in the missions they so prominently display on their marketing materials, they would operate as a non-profit or a for-profit that is not publicly traded. The very action of entering the Wall Street set clearly marks them as in if for the money..,.period. Look at what happened to Apollo Group/University of Phoenix when the attempted to do things the ‘right way’ http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/03/30/qt#255383.

  • Student_Advocate2

    Well for all the criticism this author took for his posting, he sure did kick up a lot of conversation! Kudos to you, Professor Donoghue!

  • Student_Advocate2

    The reason that community colleges cannot deter students from entering into for-profits is because they do not employ THOUSANDS of admissions staff who hound them daily with phone calls to apply. They also do not befriend potential students, learning their secret hopes and desires and then use those very facts against them to pressure them to apply. Community Colleges are there, ready and available, to help these students find a better place in society. Unfortunately, many of these students are making an “impulse purchase”, unaware of the consequences. They are being TARGETED by unscrupulous for-profits because they are the very people who are likely to be eligible for the most amount of federal financial aid, not because these “schools” wish to provide opportunity to better their lives or our society in general. It is all about the money, not what is best for the students.

  • Student_Advocate2

    I particularly like the “I’m going to college in my pajamas” commercial…(being sarcastic here). The “product” that is being sold on that commercial is nothing more than a lead generator who will sell the contact information they gather by that commercial to every for-profit school out there. These poor people inquire on impulse and are immediately inundated with phone calls from dozens of “universities” wanting them to apply. And those phone calls never stop, no matter how many times the victim asks to be removed from the list. I witnessed leads passed out that were gathered in 2005, and was expected to continue to call these poor people to harass them into college. If they didn’t want to go to school in 2005, what are the chances they want to go to school in 2011 after they have received HUNDREDS of phone calls trying to manipulate them in the door? What is the point of that? It is a waste of time on the part of the admissions staff, and does nothing but enrage those on the other end of the line.

  • studentperspective

    Well said! I look forward to the next post from Dr. Donoghue. Obviously this is a very hot topic

  • lizziec

    I agree with you – it’s the large, publicly-traded aspect that I believe causes the most problems, but the online aspect just magnifies the problems you have seen up close and personal. Spreads the stink around, if you will

  • lizziec

    As someone who put in more than 2 years as a “faculty” member with one of the large, publicly-traded for-profits, I must agree with you. The rigor is simply not there. The work my students did in ~ 6 weeks was billed as a 3 or 4 credit course, but it was so watered down, and weak that it barely represented a partial assignment for a week’s worth of work in a real 3-credit class in a traditional university, and yes – high school students could complete the work without much effort.

    The other travesty of this is that if you have enough clues to notice this, you must also have noticed that the level of ability among your classmates is appalling as well, and that you are getting virtually nothing from interacting with them.

    I’m sorry you got caught up in this…

  • studentperspective

    You just lost all credibility with your last remark.

  • studentperspective

    Amen!!

  • Student_Advocate2

    Precisely my point!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Marijane-Savoldelli/100000789491589 Marijane Savoldelli

    Here is a great site with lots of learning and inspiration for you young ones attending college in the fall

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_POEWWBVOCFFGWBVA6EQ24ZAMWU Dave

    Though I am convinced that they do exist, I’ve yet to meet a Yalie who wasn’t deserving of a punch in the face.

  • clvngodess

    Some of us artists are successful without having the art degree. And we’re happy we didn’t attend the ivory tower. Made us better business people and better artists.

  • hypatia

    I would not want to hire someone for a writing position who thinks that “never mind” is all one word, and who misuses “as such”:  It does not mean “therefore” or “hence”.  Worse still, the letter provides the reader with no concrete evidence for supposing the writer has “walked the walk” or “talked the talk”.  Moreover, the injunction, before the letter, to “enjoy” suggests that the writer has an inflated view of the value of his own writing. Assuming that this article manifests his abilities and experience, the writer has provided every reason for me not to hire him.

  • kay99

    Comment @Portia, Abel and Hypatia — I do not teach but I have worked in higher ed since 1977. It always amazes me how negatively critical faculty are. I’ve often wondered how much better the institution would be if faculty didn’t tear each other to bits. But perhaps this is the way higher ed “polices” itself. Or perhaps it helps one grow a thick skin and an inflated view of self.

  • cmcclain

    If hundreds of applicants apply for the same position then such nitpicks will determine which applications can be dumped early on in the search. The OP would do well to heed the advice of  the “negatively critical” faculty who realize that applications are first sorted by the small but glaring errors. A hiring committee member might even reach the conclusion that grammatical mistakes and lack of relevance to the institution reflect the writer’s work ethic and intended commitment to the position, if hired.

  • ctaylor32

    portiacoelhi, your second to last statement is precisely why his letter is good. All the things that you outline prior to that statement can be done when he comes to campus. You proved his letter to be as effective as he felt it was.

  • eason

    I think you went the wrong way about writing this cover letter. Not because you went with humor and tried to show your personality, that’s good, but because you hid everything in a big jumble of masturbatory prose. A cover letter (IMO) should be very easy to read and well organized. Who are you? What position are your applying for? List in bullet points your highlights in relation to the job description. How can we contact you? A reasonably competitive University’s dept. director may receive 40-50 CV’s a month, not just in hiring season. Don’t waste time, show why/how you perfectly fit the job description, make them want to open your CV to see more, and hope you get that interview. Sometimes it’s a crap-shoot, but the best thing you can do is to be succinct. If you KNOW you are a good match for the job and meet/exceed their requirements, then call/email to make sure they got your application. That will make you stand out and get you an interview much more than hoping you hit HR/whoever’s funny-bone.

  • bernicerogowitz

    This letter was obviously a letter of honest self-evaluation, which I admire a lot.  It does, however, sound defensive in places and self-important in others, which could cause the hiring committee to take a step back.  When I’ve been on the hiring side, I’ve looked for brilliance, but also a certain humility and interest in learning in the workplace.  So, if I were editing this letter, I’d shave down a few of the chips and increase the focus on what you could contribute.  Also, you might tell them why someone with such excellent experience would be interested in a 1-year contingent position. 

    By the way, did you get the interview?  Job?

  • judithryan43

    Three cheers for praeterition. It can be very effective, but in this application letter I don’t see it that way. It comes off as self-congratulatory. Altogether, the letter makes the writer sound too full of himself. The opening sentences, which I like a lot, segue too rapidly into the writer’s claim that he has “led by example.” From that point on, the letter assumes that the “hiring supervisor” knows what that example has been, which is not necessarily a valid assumption, even though he has taught at that institution before. The claims the letter goes on to make seem to be accompanied by a chip on the shoulder. In my view, the somewhat flamboyantly creative aspects of the letter essentially take it for granted that once again, this letter will not work and its author will not be hired. True, the writer mentions positive and negative responses he has received (“I have been both praised and insulted, both held up and beat down”), but the general tenor of his letter seems to say “See if I care!” I just don’t think that this is a good way to go. 

  • llevine

    I recently participated in a search for a choral conductor.  The candidate we offered the position to was a straight talking, honest musician who clearly did not answer our questions with what he thought we wanted to hear.  Instead his responses were blatantly honest and gave us pause to think about our own expectations and assumptions.  This was quite refreshing.  Your letter takes a similar approach and I hope that your straight talk will be appreciated by the members of this particular search committee.  Best of luck.

  • william_barnett

    I’ve never understood what makes an applicant over-qualified and why that is bad. I suppose some might presume that an “over-qualified” employee would be dissatisfied and likely to move on to a better position. But in this economy, such a presumption is surely mistaken quite often. Why not give an “over-qualified” applicant an opportunity to contribute her/his talent, rather than toss the application in the trash?

  • bowl_haircut

    A wise man on my dissertation committee offered me this advice when I was searching for a TT position: when you’re courting search committees, think of it as just that–a romantic relationship.

    What he meant was that the very same dynamics that come into play when one is, well, “playing the field,” are also present when one is looking for full-time academic work.  Search committees want to be wooed, sure, but they’re like the beautiful prom queen or the dreamy captain of the football team or, to use a more academia-friendly example, Indie-queen Zooey Deschanel (feel free to substitute whomever you like here).  The point is that while you want your cover letter to convey your qualifications, your eagerness, your availability, and your sincerity, you also have to convey to them that “hey, whether or not you bring me to campus, wine and dine me, or even offer me the job, I’m going to be just fine with or without you.”  That, I believe, is precisely the attitude or the ethos common to most of those who succeed in attaining a tenure-track position.  “I like you–I really do.  But whatever happens with ‘us,’ I’m going to land on my feet.”

    Your letter, on the other hand, comes off a bit…frustrated.  You’re clearly someone with several impressive accomplishments and abilities (heck, I’d love to have my own CHE blog), but your prose is dripping with this attitude that you deserve far, far more than you’ve received and dammit, it’s high time some beautiful, available search committee chair recognized it.  You basically have the right idea–you’re going for a kind of outsider-positioning, right?–but this pose is undercut by a palpable sense of anger and alienation.

    I wish you the best of luck, I really do.  Most of us do realize, I think, that just like high school romance, the process of getting a TT gig is pretty much one big farce.  (If you ever sit on a search committee, you’ll learn it’s a miracle that anyone ever gets hired in this business.)  But check your frustration at the door, so to speak, and play their game just long enough to get a steady date.  Then, well, things get a lot more interesting…       

  • 22185161

    Agreed! The purpose of the cover letter is not to rehash your resume/CV. It’s to provide a bit of yourself — your personality, your strengths, etc. The cover letter that stands out is the one that will get put in the “To Call” pile, not the “To Trash” pile. For that reason alone, yours is great. A bit smug? Maybe. Perhaps you ever-so-slightly crossed the line from confidence in your abilities to a very slight bit of smugness. But who wants an employee who isn’t confident in his/her abilities? No one I know.

    Let us know if this cover letter nets you an interview. And take the comments from the ‘haters’ here with a grain of salt. There may be some valid, useful critiques embedded in their vitriol – use them and throw out the rest.

    Good luck!

  • raza_khan

    Hi Isaac

    Foremost, congratulations on your new full-time position.  I am sure that they will find you an asset to that college.   I would like you to refrain from the use of “junior” college.  There is nothing about being “junior”.  In fact, we call them Community colleges as the emphasis is that that community decided to have a college for the betterment of its citizens of that area and the college needs to responds to their needs especially in terms of workforce development.  I can not say that is the mission of a four year or Tier I institutions.

    Now, to your thought-provoking article….
    I usually skim / scan through a cover letter.  I am more interested with the candidate’s teaching and research (if applicable) philosophy.  Since I teach at a community college, of course, my main emphasis is on teaching philosophy and how the candidate relates to the “artificial students” during a interview delivery of a lesson and how he / she can contribute to the college.  Cover letter and the color of the paper are irrelevant to me.

    Are adjuncts not given their full due respect? Absolutely! But the point is not that you just ponder on the fact that adjuncts do not get their well-deserved respect but the fact that adjuncts own it and ensure that they get it. Nothing in life comes easy…what is more important is how you deal with challanges and the decisions you take.

    best,

    Raza
    ____________________________
    Raza Khan, Ph.D.
    Dr.Raza.Khan@gmail.com

  • anotherone

    Isaac, care to share thee cover letter that helped you land that job?

    Your posted one got me to thinking I should change mine up. I keep a basic sense to mine and tailor it to what the college is looking for. Should I announce my strategies upfront? I already think my cover letter is too long, but it states what I’m looking for and what makes me different. I was told “short and sweet.”

    Congratulations! I think we’ve all been pulling for you.

  • comicsprof

    According to job search courses I recently completed, “over-qualified” is often code for “outside our age bracket.” The paradox is that by the time we’ve accumulated the education and practical experience required to do our jobs properly, some myopic institutions won’t hire us because of our ages.

  • comicsprof

    I applaud the urgent and earnest desire to break away from staid boilerplate cover letters. I agree with others that this specific approach is a bit off-putting. When we’re sending these out, we need to communicate that we can write and teach effectively, which is not necessarily akin to Trump-esque bombast.

  • cmocote

    Yikes Issac! Duck-incoming! Passive-aggressive environment. Ya think?. Scribe fanatics?

    You offered me a reason why you write, example how you write, evidence of a passion for writing and how you will transcend the act of doing into the art of teaching. Moreover, all in an environment and  spirit of life long learning.

    Did I get it? Even just a little? I hope so, because I think you get it. Some don’t and probably never will.

    You preface your letter with the remark that the job focus is on writing, not research. Therefore, in my humble opinion,  your spot-on targeting an approach to the final user. The customer.. students. Not pin head researchers (PHR’s).

    If the hiring committee is stacked with PHR’s, I guess your sh=%-out-of-luck. If it’s comprised of applied theory/practical application screeners, you just might get your foot in and make a difference transforming some lives.

    Good Luck! I praise your strategy and risk assessment. Change is a good thing. Right or wrong, at least you try.

    Craig

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Gary-North/100000049168139 Gary North

    What a joke! College presidents such as Mr. Schulz may not realize it,but “the dog-tail and all- is out of the kennel  and most don’t know that the the gate was left open”. Presidents come out with such platitudes from time to time ,and perhaps with some degree of sincerity .But the commercialization of “big time”college sports has advanced so far that even if presidents had the will to attempt to retake control ,too much money is involved,too many fans,donors and trustees would not tollerate it and too many athletic directors and coaches would find ways to roadblock the effort. Not only is the tail wagging the dog,but many presidents of “big time’ programs are out in front leading the cheers. Tune in – long after Mr. Schulz has passed from the scene -,big time sports will still be rolling along,unchecked…unless the money drys up.

  • manoflamancha

    Socratease2: well, you sure change stripes easily! I still say we shut the whole enterprise down. We can not afford it. A good practices formula should be: does this activity enhance the academic program? If no, then it must go!

  • goxewu

    Apparently, these new sports-concussion studies should extend to college presidents, who, also apparently, should be wearing helmets when they cogitate about big-time college sports (i.e.,
    D-1 football and men’s basketball programs). A few examples of semi-consciousness from the keyboard of President Schultz:

    * “Presidents need to reassert our national leadership on college sports.” Where does he get the “re-”?

    * “When was the last time a university president was interviewed on ESPN concerning an issue in college athletics?” As if it matters. And if one was, he/she would probably say something like Ohio State’s President Gee saying that he hoped the football coach wouldn’t fire him. (That football coach resigned, but not for usurping the president’s power, but for lying to the NCAA.)

    * “Deregulation of the NCAA rulebook, which he likened to the federal tax code in its complexity.” Oh yeah, that’ll help, just like getting rid of all those pesky regulations on Wall Street over the last twenty years brought us the 2008 economic meltdown. (If Schultz does want to go simple, here’s a suggestion: No. Athletic. “Scholarships.” Period.)

    * “We need the NCAA to take a firm stand on the airing of high school
    football games on national TV networks,” he said, withholding any
    outright reference to fellow Big 12 member Texas.” Typical: Take a stand in the abstract, leave the “stand” philosophical, and certainly don’t mention a specific perp. Kids, can you spell c-h-i-c-k-e-n-s-*-*-t?

    * “…it will need action from the NCAA.” First, the presidents need to take strong stands, re-assert, blah, blah, blah. But when it comes down to *doing* anything, it’s up to the NCAA, the very billion-dollar organization whose existence, huge budget, and executive perqs depends on–get this–college presidents ceding authority over their big-time sports programs to the de facto autonomous athletic departments. This is like a police chief saying its up to the mafia to do something about crime.

    * “It is important for university presidents to publicly show that we are in control of college athletics…” They aren’t in control, so how can they publicly show it? He must mean “to publicly create the illusion that we are in control.”

    If mealy-mouthed, plausible-deniability, all-talk-and-no-action President Schultz is representative of the putatively reasonable university presidents (OSU’s Gee representing the yahoo, gut-bellied tailgater side), then the only solution is manoflamancha’s: Shut ‘em all down.

  • Socratease2

    No, you misunderstand what I am saying, I did not alter my stripes at all. My response concerning the role of Presidents, the actual institutional representative who supposedly help “self-govern” the NCAA, has nothing to do with whether athletic departments should be maintained or abolished. Every post I have put out concerning this topic has supported the role of athletics at the university level. But, do I have major criticisms about how athletics is governed and how media dollars has transformed much for the negative. I want to see the system improved, not cancelled. So, in my opinion, athletics does enhance that academic mission. And if anyone who enjoys calling athletics corrupt actually worked in an athletic department  they would see very quickly that there is a lot of good work, work that supports and enhances the  overall education for most student-athletes. Is it a perfect institution? No it is not, but that is the nature of human affairs, the pursuit of the “good” can have negative side-effects. Is the solution not to do anything and sit on your hands if  some unobtainable, ideological goal is not possible. The world is material and messy, get used to it and celebrate the good that is there.

  • prfsr1

    I wish President Kirk well – it is an honorable goal.  A little over 10 yrs. ago, I was a social science adjunct at Kansas State which had a winning football team.  I have 3 stories about this experience and want to be clear that this is by no means an indictment of Kansas State. There were many more stellar and academic proficient students than the substandard.  The experiences I had are repeated hundreds, if not thousands of times every year across the nation.

    Many colleges have a tutoring unit just for athletes and in the athletic areas.  It is well known on campus that these are dens of counterfeit term papers and assignments completed by tutors but submitted by the athletes in class.  Now, my stories:

    1) Another adjunct was asked by an athletic department representative to change the grade for an athlete in order for him to be eligible for the sports program.

    2) An athlete submitted a hand written assignment with 3 different colored inks and 4 different writing styles.

    3) One assignment I had given was a brief research paper of 5 pages with 3 required sources cited. Students were told their reports would be presented in class in order to share the info with other students.  One athlete could not even express the topic of his paper without looking at it.  He had no clue about his findings and did not know what sources he had used. 

    Good luck Mr. Kirk.

  • manoflamancha

    We are all waiting to hear  how: “…athletics does enhance that academic mission”. I suspected all along that you were an insider. Spare us the pity for million dollar coaches!

  • Socratease2

    We are all waiting to hear  how: “…athletics does enhance that
    academic mission”. I suspected all along that you were an insider.
    Spare us the pity for million dollar coaches!

    I am not a coach, trainer or anything related to the pursuit of athletics. If I were a million dollar coach do you think I would be sitting around wasting my time arguing with you? I have no pity (or enmity for that matter) for million dollar coaches just like I have no strong feelings about the fact entertainers/celebrities make obscene amounts of money in this society. Do you send Sandra Bullock rants about her making $20 million for a crappy romantic comedy? No you don’t.

    First of all, I am still waiting to hear how athletics detracts from the education received by Joe Student at the average Big Time University. Please explain how that works, I keep asking but all I hear is irrelevant hyperbole supported by minimal analysis and evidence. You provide no evidence but I can go one for quite a while explaining how athletics is a positive. It would include ideas related to increasing diversity on campus, increasing self-esteem and confidence in young women, developing many positive character traits such as teamwork, leadership, perserverance, accountability, good time management skills, etc. What most students learn from books/class at college is irrelevant in terms of their future lives. What does count are the life skills they take away, things that help them work together with others and that provide motivation to be productive and to excel at whatever life goal is faced. You may not want this to be true but those are traits enhanced through participation in athletics. And that will be true no matter how many of my posts you choose to reply to. Find a new hobby horse and spare me.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=8314701 Jonathan Kotinek

    This is not a reactionary move.

    Certainly the schedule for this decision has been accelerated by the recent publicity surrounding the University of Texas’ Longhorn Network, but to focus squarely on this issue would be to flatten out some very important topography of our context. When Texas A&M kept the Big 12 together with our decision to stay last year, it was with the understanding that the unequal distribution of conference revenues was going to be addressed by Commissioner Beebe.

    The developments of past twelve months suggest that no progress has been made, or may even be possible, given the players and leadership in the issue. A move to the SEC puts Texas A&M in a position of relative strength in that we are a school that the conference wants and is willing to work for and with.

    From a recruiting standpoint, being in the SEC gives Texas athletes a way to be affiliated with the most exciting and successful conference in the nation without leaving their home state. A large number of Aggie Former Students and fans see this as a proactive decision and a move that is net positive for all involved.

    Admittedly, the decision is dollar-driven. I’d be happy to see us drop the current pretense of “student athlete” and either do away with athletic scholarships altogether or pay athletes for the service they do.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=8314701 Jonathan Kotinek

    I appreciate your attention to these facts. I admit that my perspective might be skewed by hanging around those of like mind, but the groundswell of support for a move to SEC is real, and gained clout when the 12th Man Foundation (private development foundation) and the TAMU Association of Former Students sent notices to members over the weekend encouraging legislative contact in support of A&M “charting our own course.” For TAMU’s part it sounds like *if* there is a move we will hold the door open for a game against Texas on Thanksgiving. If the rivalry fizzles…it won’t be because of us.

  • civilprof

    “Texas is really good about saying it loves the Big 12.”  What incredible spin! This is not evident to anyone outside the Texas Athletic Department as the nation watches Texas crush the remaining ten members of the Big 12 into submission. Texas demonstrates no loyalty to the Big 12.

  • 1021ajr

    While I’d love to see A&M remain in the Big 12, I can understand their desire to seek their fortunes elsewhere.  There are benefits to the political and financial power wielded by the University of Texas, especially for schools in a less favorable geographic, demographic, and financial position (Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas State, Kansas).  But feeling completely beholden is tiresome for everyone, especially for rival institutions like A&M and member schools who feel like they can or should stand toe-to-toe with UT.  While the Big 12 tries to project a “happy family” image, my guess is the dynamics are and always will be a bit strained given the flagship status granted to UT last summer.

  • sand6432

    Speaking as one who worked for a Big Ten institution for 20 years but now as a Texas resident, I’d compare the Big Ten and Big 12 by saying that the latter is dominated by one institution, UT-Austin, in a way that the other is not, both athletically and academically. In the Big Ten, on the other hand, UT-Austin would be more an equal among peers, not a dominant force. Maybe that is why, despite the many academic advantages that would accrue to UT-Austin by joining such a league, it seems not interested in doing so. It wants to be the big fish in the pond.—Sandy Thatcher

  • awegweiser

    What’s a football conference? What do they confer about? Why aren’t there basketball or baseball conferences?

  • stuaff

    Many schools have rivalries that are not in the same conference. Florida and Florida State and Virginia and Virgina Tech are a couple of examples.  There are several more.  Each school simply needs to commit to keeping that game on the schedule.

  • hoodlib

    Didn’t this flap start because of the talk of one TAMU cheerleader Rick Perry (not Rick pArry).  He has the making of another Texas cheerleader turned president.

  • commentarius

    I think what really chaps A&M people is that the “rivalry” is increasingly one-way.  UT fans rank the A&M game a distant second to the OU matchup, and in recent years it’s been rather ho-hum since the two teams were not really that close in ranking (including last year, when the usual positions were reversed).  A&M, on the other hand, builds its entire annual calendar around this game, with its crazed and often hilarious (yet sometimes tragic) obsession with bonfires and rallies and “traditions” that eclipse all other activities for months on end.  So it just drives Aggies wild that UT fans, for the most part, don’t seem to care much.  Sure, it’s a rivalry that’s occasionally entertaining, but it’s not the center of the Longhorn season.  The two teams are rarely evenly matched.  The series record is 75-37-5 in favor of UT, after all. 

  • 22058726

    Hmmm, Will Ferrell?

  • mbelvadi

    Agree. I wish I had a similar magic wand to make the obsession that faculty have with publishing in expensive for-profit journals with “high impact” factors go away and get them to only submit their manuscripts to open access journals. But it’s the same problem – those who are being judged have to play to the benchmarks established by those who do the judging.  If you don’t like the SAT obsession, reform the admissions departments; don’t blame the high school counselors and students.

  • dleeoda

    Hurray for Math students and the others who disregarded their own safety to save a man’s life!

  • dailyreader

    I was fascinated by the flow of events.  First there’s a few lifters and then more join in, with the apparent intention of turning the car on its side.  Then somebody notices the victim’s ankle, and drags him out of harm’s way.  And then everyone just runs off!  Where did everybody go?  Back to class.  Some police and fire people start putting out the fire, and he’s still lying there unconscious. After such heroic efforts I would have thought that somebody would have checked to see if he’s breathing.   

  • jeffgray

    Finally someone writes something that makes sense.  Rankings are an inch deep and a mile wide, marketing tools for those who want to grab on to simple and superficial metrics as a measure of success.  The previous article left me mystifed.  I was not clear how the Chronicle and others could assail them on the one hand, and then use them as a club to critique on the other hand, in a superficial way I might add.  Syracuse seems to have figured out something that the vast majority of others have not.  Good for them.

  • juris_prudence

    Fascinating — the article begins with a question, but the question is never answered.

    Could someone at the Chronicle please tell us how the Chronicle’s headlines are written, and why those who wrote and approved this particular headline put a negative spin on a development that many people consider to be very positive?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nicole-Nguyen/5512359 Nicole Nguyen

    Many Syracuse University graduate students proudly recognize the importance and (prestigious) value of work with the community, and support Chancellor Cantor’s bold vision and steadfast commitment to Scholarship in Action.  Please see our response to the Wilson article at http://syracuseengagedgrads.wordpress.com/

  • 11191774

    I have always said that I like faculty members individually, but when they get together, some chemical reaction takes place that makes them, collectively, among the most irrational mob one can ever hope to (not) encounter.

    I think it is the “Exiles from Eden” syndrome coupled with Groucho Marx’s pronouncement about not wanting to be in a club that would have him as a member.

    Mostly, though, I think Syracuse is getting better by marching to the beat of its own drummer, rather than chasing that which can never be attained.  Good for them.  Until someone can both quantify and morally rationalize the value of a rejected applicant, I’ll take the side of the good.

  • jamesm

    Congratulations to Syracuse.  It’s decided to take the long view and make commitments that will well-serve the university and society in the years to come, rather than dwell on the metrics of past incoming classes.  It seems to me that this is the strategic pursuit of excellence.  Thanks to Eric  for sharing it with all of us.  – Jim Miller

  • willardmdix

    I read the original piece with growing admiration for Syracuse and thought the headline was sly; perhaps the word “slide” should have been in quotation marks. I didn’t read the article as negative about Syracuse at all. I agree with Ted O’Neill 100% — Syracuse is “walking the walk” not just “talking the talk” about being concerned with serving a broader population and looking to the future instead of trying to hold on to the ragged present. (The origins of the word “prestige” have to do with illusion or trickery, BTW. Think “prestidigitation.”)
    I work at Chicago Scholars, an organization that serves talented but underserved students in the city. Syracuse has been an enthusiastic supporter of our program, helping find and encourage bright students from outside the mainstream to apply to and enroll in great colleges, not just Syracuse. Reading about the Chancellor’s forward-thinking policies was a breath of fresh air in a sometimes suffocating world of argument about rankings, ACT sores, and chasing the same tiny goals.The student newspaper’s comment about how the enrollment changes might “devalue” the Syracuse degree are repellent, tinged with classism and racism. The professor’s comment (on the original story) that he is “an intellectual” and supposedly exempt from the real world (my interpretation) reminded me why so many people hate professors. Eric’s comments about status and Nancy Cantor’s outlook as Syracuse’s chancellor are right on the money. Other institutions should be looking to Syracuse as a model for the future.Finally, I recently reviewed (www.funnyhamlet.wordpress.com) Prof. Andrew Roberts’s excellent book “The Thinking Student’s Guide to College: 75 Tips for Getting a Better Education.” A comment early in the book is particularly germane: “The one aim that drives most colleges and universities,…,is a desire to increase their prestige. Universities wish to be viewed as the best in their line of work. They want to achieve the highest esteem among the general public and their peers as they can. To put it bluntly, everyone wants to be Harvard, and Harvard wants to make sure that no one else is Harvard.” In this light, universities look more like a gym full of ninth graders at their new high school.If Chancellor Cantor is trying to get Syracuse off that dreadful and pointless treadmill and doing some social good in the process, I say more power to her.

  • Evil_Spock

    When the former admissions officer at a school which admits virtually all very high-SAT score students says that lower SAT scores don’t necessarily indicate less ability to do a college’s work, you’ll pardon me if I think he may not quite believe that. Was he not admitting low-SAT score students for non-academic reasons? Or by “a particular college” do we mean “a particular college that isn’t my college”?

  • Socratease2

    As I remember, the SAT is simply a flawed predictor of what % chance a  freshman student has of being still satisfactorily enrolled in school by the end of their freshmen year of college. As such, it should not be conflated with a metric that is actually measuring a student’s potential to grow, learn, mature and contribute to campus academic and social culture. I hate the Princeton Testing Service.

  • Evil_Spock

    I wasn’t commenting on the utility or lack of utility of the test, I was commenting on the disingenuousness of someone who ran admissions for a school which relies heavily on SAT scores saying this.

  • alexis_v

    There is a very easy expedient to raise both the selectivity of a university and the number of low-income applicants:
     
    Abolish the application fee.

  • stonecash

    Eric Hoover (“Syracuse, Selectivity, and ‘Old Measures’”–Oct. 13, 2011) writes an interesting but misconceived and misleading column.  Hoover would have us believe that all opponents of Nancy Cantor quoted in your front-page story “Syracuse’s Slide” are hopelessly and foolishly  opposing her admission policies with old muddled metrics. We were both quoted in the story, and neither one of us refers to anything of the sort.  Neither do some others.  Nancy Cantor’s critics are asking questions about her fiscal judgment and ranking of priorities.
     
    She has increased the size of the student body (at least 25 %) while decreasing the budget percentage going to the academic mission of the schools and colleges, where these new students must be educated.  What has gotten bigger along with the bulging student body is the percentage of the budget going to administrative costs and to carry out her personal priorities outside the academy.  For example, just this past Friday, the University announced the creation of yet another Senior Vice President, this one for “Investment in Human Capital.”  Money goes here rather than to support teaching students, a legitimate and proper investment in human capital. 
     
    While this goes on, the endowment is the same as it was a decade ago, despite the University’s billion dollar fund-raising campaign.  Debt has more than doubled.  The real issue is academic quality’s slide in University priorities, and that is what we said in the Chronicle story.  If we can get off the red herring routine maybe we can focus on how the university is managed.
     
    Don Saleh, Syracuse’s Vice President for Enrollment Managemnt, tells us in Hoover’s column that “we have an imperative to recruit those students and educate those students.”  We agree.  But by all sorts of metrics, and by our own experience teaching more than 20,000 students over a combined tenure of more than 75 years, today’s students are less and less able to read and write than just a few years ago.  Surely, if we have an “imperative to educate” we need to put our money where our mouth is.  Unless, of course, graduating literate citizens, not just active citizens, is another out-of-date metric employed by wooly-headed professors who know nothing about the real world.  Our nagging fear is that the only metric used to measure all things at Syracuse these days is the degree of fit with a 1960’s liberal ideology, which Chancellor Cantor polices with a vengeance.

    Robert McClure, Chapple Family Professor of Citizenship and Democracy Emeritus
    Jeff Stonecash, Maxwell Professor 

  • facultydiva

    That is what some of us refer to as “Veep Creep”.  On some campuses it may be “Associate Provost Creep” or some other administrative title variation.

  • licama

    Hoover makes an interesting but odd argument.  The premise of the piece is that any old metric will do and there is just a substitution of one for another.  The traditionalists cling to the old one and the new, enlightened people want a new one.  The latter position seems to be that the old metric had no relevance as an indicator of quality or excellence.  Everyone is the same so any metric is as good as another.  Given that everyone is the same, then let’s just distribute positions on the basis of identity.   The essence of the claim is that all students have essentially the same ability so we don’t need and cannot put too much stake in indicators of capability.  This means efforts to find such indicators is a futile effort because the measures have no validity.  It isn’t said, but if old metrics don’t matter for admission why do they matter beyond admission?   I suppose that striving for achievement and differentiation is also over-rated.  

    This is a comforting set of claims, but I wish there was some evidence (and not just a romantic democratic egalitarian notion) that students don’t vary in capability.  If we accept that all students are the same, then the only real goal is to match demographics, and with this logic Syracuse is surging and better because we are playing identity politics.  I guess those who buy into the virtues of identity politics will like this article.  

  • dale1

    Ms. Judge:

    Don’t confuse us with the facts; the faculty KNOW that the university administration is sucking up all the resources.  They just feel it in their bones that they aren’t getting the funding they want.

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